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Temple of Khaine 
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Assassin
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Joined: Fri May 23, 2003 8:21 am
Posts: 540
Hi all,
New Armybook, new Chances. With the beginning of the new year I ve resujected an old druchii projects, the temple of Khaine. Since years I have Ideas and plans to realize this army. First only as a vitrin army but because I´ve started again playing as well to play with it. The List is very Fluffy and exists to reflect the temple of Khaine. I know that it isn´t balanced because I pass on a lot of important elements like magic and shooting. Khaine is the god of murder and my miniatures should be to serve his will. They shoud be the deadlist warriors out there and should face their enemy on the battlefield to get honour in the hand to hand combat. No treachery magic and no shooting should disturb the slaughter or should make it easier. No mounts should kill for their riders. That´s why this list is an infantry only army. Men against men only the weapon skill should deciede the end of my foes.

So far the idea and what I want. Making this army playable is a more difficult if not the most difficult task in this project. It´s all about movement, tactic and strategy.

Here the list (I have only the german armybook so some translations maybe wrong) and then some explanations about how I play it:

Temple des Khaine:


Charaktere:

Dreadlord:
Soulrender
bloodarmour
potion of strenght
ring of darkness
[230]

Deathhag
BSB
manbane
Hydrabanner
[215]

Detahhag
cauldron
[200]

Detahhag
cauldron
[200]

Assassine
additional HW
W3 attacks, manbane
[171]

Core

20 spears
shilds
full command
[155]

20 spears
shilds
standard, champion
[152]

10 corsairs
[100]

5 haroies
[55]

5 harpies
[55]


Elite
13 Executiones
full command
banner of murder
[211]

13 Black Guards
full command
ring of Hotek
Banner of Hag Greaf
[254]

5 Witches
[50]

5 Witches[50]

Rare

Hydra
[175]


How to Protect against Shooting and Magic:
I have only two DD
I have two caulrons and so two 5+ Wardsave to spend to my troops
I have the ring of Hotek
I have the ring of Darkness to protect the HB who is in the black guard against shooting
I have redundant troops
I have cheap troops to Screen, here Witches corsairs

How to kill the enemy:
I have three hard hitters.

Black Guard with ASF Banner
Because of the death HAG BSB most will think that she carries the ASF banner so will be foolish enough to charge the guard. Nethertheless the Guard is one of the best infantry units in the whole game and with HB and cauldron effect it can be very dangerous. I have no problems to get charged with this unit


Executioners with BSB Hydra banner, Banner of Murder and Assassine
The most deadlist unit on my battlefield. 15 Attacks with hate, killing blow, S6 armourpiercing. There is not much which will survive. The Hag BSB is tricky because of frenzy and must be played wise not to charge out of the unit. If charged the Assassine is in there to protect her. He hast up to Attacks and the Death Hag 6 Attakcs. Thats a lot of offensive potential but the problem is to get this unit into the game.


Hydra is speaking for itself. Also one of the best units of our druchii force.

I know that the list has it´s weakness and it´s hard to get it into the close combat. Woodland Animal hast shown that Dark Elfs are playable with only two DD and ring of Hotek. Dark Alliance hast shown the worth of two cauldrons and a balanced list. My try here is more radical and is a combination of both. Many miniatures and redundant but also protection by a lot of characters.

Most problems in the moment I have in the disposition phase, means how to put the army on the board. And the movement Phase. So some tricks and tips here would be really good. Also what to do best against different armies. Also I like to have some feedback and ideas how to get the list playable. Please don´t say me I need black riders, shooting and magic I know that I need this but it´s not in the sense of this concept.

Many thanks GeOrc


Thu Feb 05, 2009 11:58 am
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Dark Illusionist
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Location: Dating a Witch elf...
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The translations are all understandable enough I'd say, so on to the comments:

First and foremost - without shooting, magic or cavalry you do have a bit of a tough army to play. Maybe you should consider breaking the concept for a noble on dark pegasus, perhaps even hellebron on manticore (though I do have issues seeing how she is supposed to work in your army due to the lack of other fast-moving threats, which means she'll have to take all the cannonballs, spears, rock-lobbas and their likes, which she won't take well for long) to hunt a war machine or a mage down. If you want infantry only, you'll have a tough time against most armies.

I do think your list is too slow to be able to avoid the incoming fire and on top of that the magic of your opponent. The ring of hotek can easily be at least in part bypassed by using 3-dice spells (each sorcerer will have at least one, high level sorcerers likely two of those) because the chances of a double are not very high.

If you want no riders, you'll need more harpies I'd say (another two units of 5 at least) to provide you with enough speed to hit your opponent's mages and war machines before they can cause too much damage to render your army useless).

What I've had great success with (but what would also leave your black guard without the banner of hag graef) is what I call the witch elf death star:

Hellebron and a death hag bsb with the banner of hag graef in a large(ish) unit of witch elves (remember they're core with hellebron) that has full command and the banner of murder. You boost that unit with +1 attack from the cauldron and watch it slaughter virtually anything that crosses their path (hellebron gets on average 9 S10 attacks with that unit). The ring of hotek will have to be somewhere in close proximity as well. The good news is that hellebron's amulet of fire has an inbuilt fail-safe against magic (not too reliable, but it comes in handy, especially if the ring of hotek and 2DD are your only defence against magic).

The problem is they'll slaughter two units a turn at max (and that will only happen if your either extremely clever or extremely lucky), most of the time they'll spend half the game getting to your opponent who desperately tries to hide and then slaughter two units throughout the whole game (and frenzy does have to be counteracted with an awful lot of harpies as they'll most likely have to take all the shooting your opponent can throw at you). The positive thing is that the rest of your army will likely go more or less unscratched, and if they don't your witch elf death star will get wherever you want it to go.

But if you go all-khainite - why not take the most khainy thing on earth - hellebron?

The black guard might fit the fluff better if they were indeed executioners instead (two units with one assassin each will be rather nasty as the assassin will clear what is known in 40k - or used to be - as the killing zone, i.e. everything that might strike back at you before or after you have made your attacks).

With witchies as core you might also be wanting to go for some serious with elf spam - lots and lots of 5-strong units to soak up fire and distract while your main units do the real killing.

I am aware that I'm suggesting some major changes, so I do hope you haven't already bought anything or, worse, started converting and painting. But as it is, your list will struggle, especially once your opponent, taking advantage of your non-existent shooting, has reached your rear and prevents your army from marching and/or gets in those annoying rear charges. By presenting you with multiple threats it won't be advisable to turn to face the threat, but it's also not a great idea to stay where you are as you'll be charged in the rear no matter what.
The hydra provides you with a little in the way of counter-acting those threats, but once again - it's a large target and on top of that the only large target on the board (and one very sensible target for cannons and their mates).

HUZZAH!

_________________
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Thu Feb 05, 2009 1:17 pm
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Morathi's Favoured
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Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2002 1:29 pm
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GeOrc wrote:
Hi all,
New Armybook, new Chances. With the beginning of the new year I ve resujected an old druchii projects, the temple of Khaine. Since years I have Ideas and plans to realize this army. First only as a vitrin army but because I´ve started again playing as well to play with it. The List is very Fluffy and exists to reflect the temple of Khaine. I know that it isn´t balanced because I pass on a lot of important elements like magic and shooting. Khaine is the god of murder and my miniatures should be to serve his will. They shoud be the deadlist warriors out there and should face their enemy on the battlefield to get honour in the hand to hand combat. No treachery magic and no shooting should disturb the slaughter or should make it easier. No mounts should kill for their riders. That´s why this list is an infantry only army. Men against men only the weapon skill should deciede the end of my foes.

Understood.

So far the idea and what I want. Making this army playable is a more difficult if not the most difficult task in this project. It´s all about movement, tactic and strategy.

Here the list (I have only the german armybook so some translations maybe wrong) and then some explanations about how I play it:

Temple des Khaine:


Charaktere:

Dreadlord:
Soulrender
bloodarmour
potion of strenght - I don't see the point of this when you use Soulrender, unless you want to try and kill a steam tank.
ring of darkness
[230]

Deathhag
BSB
manbane
Hydrabanner - see below 'BSB'
[215]

Detahhag
cauldron
[200]

Detahhag
cauldron
[200]

I am going to suggest some alternative character selections which fit your theme, but I will give you plenty of reasoning behind their inclusion. You can then think about which ones you like and we can talk some more.

1. Your General - If you are going to take a Dreadlord, you could consider a Manticore for his mount. It is an aspect of Khaine after all, and the fact that it comes with killing blow and a liability to frenzy fits your theme perfectly. If you like the idea of this we can talk more about magic items.

Hellebron is an obvious choice too, but I will not suggest her simply because most tournaments do not allow special characters.

The next alternative is to make one of the COB Death Hags your general. This is a favourite tactic of mine. I don't give her any upgrades so she ends up costing a mere 200pts. Her survivability factor has been improved by the new DE faq, where they have confirmed that the COB attendants are Hags as well. This means you have 2 champions who can accept challenges in her place while you wait for reinforcements to arrive and help her out. In most cases now she simply should not die.

2. The BSB - consider making the second COB Death Hag the BSB and give her the Banner of Nagarythe. This is another combination I have been conducting trials on and it is awesome!

As with the general, her survivability rate is very high now she is accompanied by 2 unit champions. The banner adds +1 to ALL friendly DE units within 12", so if you have 2 of your units fighting 1 enemy unit you get +2 to your static combat resolution. (More on this later...see Assassins)

The fact that the COB can move now, coupled with your infantry army means that you will always be able to get this bonus where you want it to be.

3. The secondary support characters - can now be Masters. This will fit your theme as the army is being led by Death Hags. It also removes the liability for having your characters pulled out of units because of frenzy.

The choice of weaponry and items is unlimited then pretty much. One of them can have heavy armour, sea dragon cloak, shield, great weapon (for the choice of weaponry depending on opponent), pendant OR a null talisman with maybe Armour of Darkness and a great weapon. Another one can have heavy armour, sea dragon cloak, soulrender and 2 null talismans.

Now, all of a sudden you have reduced the vulnerability of giving away bonus points from the General and BSB whilst adding greatly to the dispel capability of the army.


Assassine
additional HW
W3 attacks, manbane
[171]

Good combination - d3 extra attacks and manbane with the ahw. It's all you need. However, going back to my comments about the Banner of Nagarythe for a moment. If you had 2 or more Assassins, they could charge into combats, with each one gaining +1 to the combat resolution.

See where I am going with this? :twisted:

Core

20 spears
shilds
full command
[155]

Needs the Warbanner. This unit can then take charges from a lot of nasty ass units. I regularly stick mine right in front of a unit of Flesh Hounds for example. That's before you even consider what the COB blessings can add. Remember Flesh Hounds can be killing blowed.

20 spears
shilds
standard, champion
[152]

Cold Blooded banner is another option as it will enable the unit to pretty much guarantee charging a fear or terror causer when needed.

10 corsairs
[100]

Cheap and cheerful meat shield but 20 with full command and the frenzy banner is another successful favourite of mine. Deployed 7/7/6 with an Assassin in there.

It's a good unit to offer a flank charge to the enemy, and then reveal the Assassin! :twisted:


5 haroies
[55]

5 harpies
[55]


Elite
13 Executiones
full command
banner of murder
[211]

13 Black Guards
full command
ring of Hotek
Banner of Hag Greaf
[254]

Both these units do exactly 'what it says on the tin'. They don't need any comment.

5 Witches
[50]

5 Witches[50]

Both will die very easily without careful use however, reverting back to theBanner of Nagarythe, they can be used in a similar way to Empire Detachments and they will add the +1 to static combat res.

In certain situations they can even be deployed 1 wide 5 deep to reduce the number of enemy attacks back which means they will not die, and thus still add to the static res.


Rare

Hydra
[175]


How to Protect against Shooting and Magic:
I have only two DD - Not now! The MR from the null talismans is a great way to protect the army as it forces your opponent to rethink their casting strategy. What it will allow you to do is split your deployment if necessary, with MR2 on one side, and MR1 + the ring of hotek on the other.

The opponent then meets MR2 so decides to cast at the other side of the army. Meets MR1 so realise he needs to cast with more dice. Then meets the ring of hotek.

It's not infallible but it does work a lot of the time.


I have two caulrons and so two 5+ Wardsave to spend to my troops
I have the ring of Hotek
I have the ring of Darkness to protect the HB who is in the black guard against shooting
I have redundant troops
I have cheap troops to Screen, here Witches corsairs

How to kill the enemy:
I have three hard hitters.

Black Guard with ASF Banner
Because of the death HAG BSB most will think that she carries the ASF banner so will be foolish enough to charge the guard. Nethertheless the Guard is one of the best infantry units in the whole game and with HB and cauldron effect it can be very dangerous. I have no problems to get charged with this unit


Executioners with BSB Hydra banner, Banner of Murder and Assassine
The most deadlist unit on my battlefield. 15 Attacks with hate, killing blow, S6 armourpiercing. There is not much which will survive. The Hag BSB is tricky because of frenzy and must be played wise not to charge out of the unit. If charged the Assassine is in there to protect her. He hast up to Attacks and the Death Hag 6 Attakcs. Thats a lot of offensive potential but the problem is to get this unit into the game.

There is a thread in the Tactics Forum started by Calisson called MSX - Burger Khaine (IIRC). I suggest you read it as there are a lot of discussion points about Executioners. Personally I am dead set AGAINST small units of Exes but the comments about their use with the COB are valid and informative, and Cal' has done some good statistical analysis.


Hydra is speaking for itself. Also one of the best units of our druchii force.

I know that the list has it´s weakness and it´s hard to get it into the close combat. Woodland Animal hast shown that Dark Elfs are playable with only two DD and ring of Hotek. Dark Alliance hast shown the worth of two cauldrons and a balanced list. My try here is more radical and is a combination of both. Many miniatures and redundant but also protection by a lot of characters.

Most problems in the moment I have in the disposition phase, means how to put the army on the board.

We call 'disposition' deployment. We can talk more about this when you have commented about my thoughts re the army composition.

And the movement Phase. So some tricks and tips here would be really good. Also what to do best against different armies. Also I like to have some feedback and ideas how to get the list playable. Please don´t say me I need black riders, shooting and magic I know that I need this but it´s not in the sense of this concept.

Many thanks GeOrc


Last edited by Dark Alliance on Thu Feb 05, 2009 3:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.



Thu Feb 05, 2009 2:23 pm
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Assassin
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Joined: Fri May 23, 2003 8:21 am
Posts: 540
Post 
@ Anderson,
thx, for the good feedback. The problem with helleborn is that on most tournaments she is forbideen and even in normal games in germany no one wants to see special characters.
That´s why I have ot go without here.
Same counts for harpies, a third unit will be a problem by most restictions which are standard here in germany.

The problem with the witch elf death star is frenzy in my eyes the . For sure this works with some shooting, but without my enemys will lead this unit there they want them to be. In the past I had made some bad experineces with characters in frenzy units. So I use them only if they can be used as flesh meat.
Executioners vs blacj guard. I need in this list the black guard and especially the champion to carry the ring so that I can use more items of the talisman section.

Again thx for your feedback


@ DA,
many thanks for this detaild analysis and these good ideas.

Characters:
The main Reason play the DL on foot was the ring of darkness and the chance to protect one of my main units against shooting. Also it drastically reduces the attacks back when he wasn´t able to kill his enemy.

I also ike the idea of a a Manitcor, especially because I have a realy nice miniature for that. But I think takingone then I have to decied between the second couldron and the manti and I prefer the second couldron because of the second 5+ ward save which I means is very essential for this kind of list.

The Idea of one cauldron as BSB with Banner of Naggarythe and one cauldron as general is very genuis. I had thought about the banner before but dropped it for more offensiv power from the hydra banner. Also the point costs and that it won´t fit without larger changes on the list.

The complet packet consisting of two cauldrons, two masters is more than genuis, especially with the additional magic defense. I like this a lot and I think it´s time to change my list in this direction. Becuase of the ETC restricitions the pendant will coat a second hero chice so this won´t be a choice in the list looking into direction of this tournament. But I think there will be a lot of useful combinations.

Assassine:
I like the ideas of two assassines a lot but like the pendent they cost on most tournaments and standard restriktions a second hero slot. Means it´s an alternative for a master but because of the magic resistance I would prefer the master.

Core:
Agree on the spears. Because of the frenzy corsairs. I like them to and I had them in all my lists before. This here was the first were I hadn´t enough points for standart and banner.
It would be nice to incoorporate them again.

Elite:
If I understand you right you prefer larger units of executioners yourself but smaller units would do their job too. I think the composition here depends much on the rest of the army list and the points. The big unit here was a reason to make sure it will come in combat especially with the expensive hydra bsb and the assassine. I think without these the unit could be also smaller, but if possible I would prefer a bigger one. The thread of calisson I allready read wih great interest.

Ok a lot of new ideas and I want them all. I think it´s time to look how this all will fit in a 2250 pts armylist. That would be a harder challenge for me than sculpt a new dark elf miniature.

Again thanks a lot Gary, this had helped me a lot. Let me know what you have in mind for an army list consisting of your ideas.

Kind Regards GeOrc


Thu Feb 05, 2009 3:34 pm
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Morathi's Favoured
Morathi's Favoured

Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2002 1:29 pm
Posts: 9728
Location: In the paintshop
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Ok. I will write you a 2250 list using the ETC rules pack over the next few days.


Thu Feb 05, 2009 3:49 pm
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Morathi's Favoured
Morathi's Favoured

Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2002 1:29 pm
Posts: 9728
Location: In the paintshop
Post 
Here is an initial list concept...

The Devastation of Khaine

Death Hag (General) - COB ... 200pts
Death Hag (BSB) - COB, Banner of Nagarythe ... 350pts
Master - heavy armour, sea dragon cloak, 2 Null Talismans, Soulrender ... 133pts
Master - heavey armour, sea dragon cloak, shield, Sword of Might, 2 Null Talismans ... 135pts

In this configuation the General and the BSB are able to offer massive support and enhancement to the list - leadership, break test re-rolls, COB blessings and static combat res from the big banner. They also offer 2 terror causers which can be used later in the game as the enemy starts to close in.

Careful positioning of the COB to force it to be drawn into certain combats, means the enemy has a terror test to take when he declares the charge. If they fail this test they must flee. More on this in later discussions.

The 2 Masters are there to offer ld9 to their respective units if necessary, but more importantly the magic resistance 2 and the all important 2 magic weapons. At least then you have some chance against Wraiths. They will also be effective against Dryads and the Treeman as they will not be allowed their ward save.

The Masters are inexpensive so can die without causing too much disruption to the way the list will work.

20 Warriors - full command, shields, War Banner ... 180pts
20 Warriors - full command, shields, Banner of Cold Blood ... 170pts
16 Corsairs - full command, Sea Serpent Standard ... 210
5 Harpies ... 55pts

The core selection is there to fulfill the following roles:

1. Add static combat resolution.
2. Tar pit units such as Knights and Flesh Hounds.
3. Put the enemy under pressure by marching headlong at them!
4. The Corsais will rip through Undead core troops, and given killing blow from a COB can work miracles against Knights, Grave Guard etc.

(Not having any missile troops actually makes the game easier in the movement phase, and allows you to keep the army together)


Assassin - additional hand weapon, manbane, rune of khaine ... 146pts

Depending upon your opponent and their deployment, there are optimum places for him to hide. I would like to tweak the list slightly to get a hag into one of the Witch Elf units with Witchbrew, for reasons discussed in my "Warriors and Witchbrew" tactics thread, but we can look at that possibility as the list evolves.

Hydra ... 175pts

5 Witch Elves ... 50pts
5 Witch Elves ... 50pts
12 Black Guard - full command, Banner of Hag Graef, Ring of Hotek ... 251pts
12 Executioners ... 144pts

The Executioners and BG will be magnets for missile fire. Screen them as approprite with WEs and Harpies as rolling terrain, as well as the block units and terrain itself.

Army total is 2249pts if I have worked it out correctly.


I have designed the list so that the 2 Masters do not neccessarily have to join the Exes and BG. At the end of the day, the Druchii will sacrifice any unit for the win, and so it is very apt that the General and the BSB are part of the 2 least likely to die units. The Cold Blooded Banner, frenzied units and BG will work very well against the ever increasing number of fear causers out there.

Tell me your thoughts and then we can look at deployment options against varying opponents.

Primary concerns -

1. Flying terror causers. Not so much because of the terror itself, more because of their ability to get into your flank or rear if you are not careful.

2. Masses of shooting.

3. Avoidance armies such as Wood Elves.

Hope that all helps. Let me know your thoughts... :D


Thu Feb 05, 2009 8:56 pm
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Hi DA,
The list is genuis and I like it a lot. It perfectly keep the concept, is optimized and contains all elements I wished to be in.

Some thoughts and ideas:

Charcters:
General and BSB are perfect, nothing to add here.

Masters:
Both look very solid.
1.) Master - heavey armour, sea dragon cloak, shield, Sword of Might, 2 Null Talismans ... 135pts
I like this one a lot He has a 3+ Armoursave 4+ with handweapon and shield bonus. 5+ strenght and the magic defense of two talismans. PERFECT

2.)Master - heavy armour, sea dragon cloak, 2 Null Talismans, Soulrender ... 133pts
thisone looks weeker on defensive side with 4+ armour save. I think it would be good to have him in the black guard with ASF Banner to make sure that he strikes first. Strength 6 armourpiercing is imortant to have some hardhitter if needed

I would be interested in knowing how your ideas about the death hag character with witchbrew. I like the idea of the witchbrew. Which master you would drop. What about loosing some of the magic defense, how you would compensate that.

Only some thought / idea
What do you think of a master with dagger of Hotek? I know he has only strengh 4 attacks, but here minimum 5, 6 with cauldron effect, of them with hate and ASF means he could be useful to hold an enemy charge of light infantry, and he is still able to carry a null talisman. The armour save is with 4+ very bad, the blood armour would be an option if the talisman would be dropped in this configuration it would be perhaps an alternative to the death hag which also causes that there is only one Master which carries Magic resistence.

only some thoughts....

Core:
nothing to add about the spears, both very solid. Only 5 Harpies is the only thing I´m really afraid. 5 more would be good but because this is a completly new game play for me and the army is made to march vs the enemy I can´t say if a second unit of 5 is necesarry. In my games until now I had always 2 x 5 which were always very useful and needed.

about the corsairs, I´m really happy that these were in because I like them a lot.

Elite and Rare are pefect, nothing to add here.

Many thanks again for the list and your time you put into helping me.

Kind Regards
GeOrc


Fri Feb 06, 2009 11:18 am
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Morathi's Favoured
Morathi's Favoured

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GeOrc wrote:
Hi DA,
The list is genuis and I like it a lot. It perfectly keep the concept, is optimized and contains all elements I wished to be in.

Some thoughts and ideas:

Charcters:
General and BSB are perfect, nothing to add here.

Masters:
Both look very solid.
1.) Master - heavey armour, sea dragon cloak, shield, Sword of Might, 2 Null Talismans ... 135pts
I like this one a lot He has a 3+ Armoursave 4+ with handweapon and shield bonus. 5+ strenght and the magic defense of two talismans. PERFECT

2.)Master - heavy armour, sea dragon cloak, 2 Null Talismans, Soulrender ... 133pts
thisone looks weeker on defensive side with 4+ armour save. I think it would be good to have him in the black guard with ASF Banner to make sure that he strikes first. Strength 6 armourpiercing is imortant to have some hardhitter if needed

The 7th ed faq has added some additional bonus into spear blocks. It states that models in the second rank which are allowed to attack, can allocate their attcks to enemy models in base to base contact with their colleagues. In essence you treat them as though they are in the front rank to. So, if you Master is in a spear block for example, and the combat get prolonged, the second rank can choose to attack the models in base to base with your Master, hopefully killing them which means his striking last is not a problem.

I would be interested in knowing how your ideas about the death hag character with witchbrew. I like the idea of the witchbrew. Which master you would drop. What about loosing some of the magic defense, how you would compensate that.

Because you have chosen not to include any missile troops the characters are more restricted in their roles so I don't really think we can get a Death Hag with Witchbrew into the list. I was thinking more along the lines of having Hags in the WEs with Witchbrew.

I need to think more about this after I have playtested the list myself.


Only some thought / idea
What do you think of a master with dagger of Hotek? I know he has only strengh 4 attacks, but here minimum 5, 6 with cauldron effect, of them with hate and ASF means he could be useful to hold an enemy charge of light infantry, and he is still able to carry a null talisman.

He won't die very often and if he does it's not many points. By that time combat is occuring so MR is less of a worry. And don't forget, under ETC you are only looking at 9 or 10 power dice maximum. That includes all prayers, bound spells et cetera.

Dagger of Hotek at 30 points also cuts down on the MR which I wouldn't recommend.


The armour save is with 4+ very bad, the blood armour would be an option if the talisman would be dropped in this configuration it would be perhaps an alternative to the death hag which also causes that there is only one Master which carries Magic resistence.

only some thoughts....

Core:
nothing to add about the spears, both very solid. Only 5 Harpies is the only thing I´m really afraid. 5 more would be good but because this is a completly new game play for me and the army is made to march vs the enemy I can´t say if a second unit of 5 is necesarry. In my games until now I had always 2 x 5 which were always very useful and needed.

We can easily get the second unit of Harpies in by dropping 5 Warriors from the block carrying trhe Cold Blooded Banner for 35pts and 2 Corsairs for 20pts.

This change doesn't weaken either unit particularly. The Corsairs are 7 wide anyway and are there just for the massed attacks from the front rank. The Warriors still get +1 from the Banner of Nagarythe so are no worse off than the standard Warrior block full static res available to all other armies.


about the corsairs, I´m really happy that these were in because I like them a lot.

Elite and Rare are pefect, nothing to add here.

Many thanks again for the list and your time you put into helping me.

Kind Regards
GeOrc


Fri Feb 06, 2009 1:15 pm
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@ DA
tomarrow I will have my first match with our new list. I will tell you how it was. See you
GeOrc


Mon Feb 09, 2009 6:39 pm
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OK. I have a test with it on Wednesday. Either Skaven or Lizards I think.

What are you facing?

Don't forget, this is going to be a difficult list to use because of the restrictions you have imposed on it's composition...


Mon Feb 09, 2009 7:00 pm
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I face the new lizardmen. The list will be "nice" whatever this menas, but I think I will get much help because I play against the guy who will transform me to a tournament player ;)

Kind Regards GeOrc


Mon Feb 09, 2009 7:03 pm
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Good, it always helps when you get to try a new list against an understanding player.


Mon Feb 09, 2009 7:07 pm
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Hey DA I was checking out your list very nice got me wanting to make a khainite list of my own I was wondering thogh why ot give one of the spearblocks banner of murder giving them more destructive hittig power. Plus AP Spears watch out knights.

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Mon Feb 09, 2009 7:50 pm
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Thanks.

AP spears is good I agree, but remember that this isn't a normal list. GeOrc has set various restrictions regarding what he wants to have in the list, and what he doesn't so choices have been made for different reasons than normal.

Because the list is all about combat resolution and actually getting the charge, I chose the warbanner and cold blodded banner. If you read through the posts you will see more thinking about why.

Being able to get the charge is more important imo in an all rounded, tournament style list. Don't forget we have 2 COB in this army - killing blow is better than armour piercing!


Mon Feb 09, 2009 8:23 pm
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Hei, nice one, thanks DA, this topic is giving a great insight in how to develop a list.

I like the whole concept behind the list that is evolving here, trying to build a competitive list based on the khainite background is not an easy task, but there are tons of hints given here, as to how it could be accomplished.
Especially the ideas on how to tackle the issue of magic defense is very helpful, actually the whole character setup looks tempting to me.

The only problem i have with it, is that it will suffer when facing an enemy that plays hard-to-catch, especially WEs and some DE builds using lots of skirmishers and mobile troops combined with heavy magic and shooting come to mind here. With your blocks it could be very difficult to close in on such an army. More harpies could help here, as well as steeds on your masters, , though these don't fit the theme.

So thanks again for this very useful topic and the detailed thoughts on every choice. I think it just inspired me to incorporate some of it in my efforts to write a list, maybe one following the suggestion of a manti in DAs first post.


Mon Feb 09, 2009 10:58 pm
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Valvet wrote:
Hei, nice one, thanks DA, this topic is giving a great insight in how to develop a list.

I like the whole concept behind the list that is evolving here, trying to build a competitive list based on the khainite background is not an easy task, but there are tons of hints given here, as to how it could be accomplished.
Especially the ideas on how to tackle the issue of magic defense is very helpful, actually the whole character setup looks tempting to me.

GeOrc has set a very difficult task if you look at this from purely a competitive viewpoint, but as he is a painter all he wants is to learn how not to lose every game, so we do have some chance of success.

A lot of the ideas though can be incorporated into other lists.


The only problem i have with it, is that it will suffer when facing an enemy that plays hard-to-catch, especially WEs and some DE builds using lots of skirmishers and mobile troops combined with heavy magic and shooting come to mind here. With your blocks it could be very difficult to close in on such an army. More harpies could help here,

Agreed and I have said this already. This situation is where GeOrc will have to make a decision depending on how well he is doing in the tournament, and whether he wants to try and win that particular game. Hiding himself is always an option, and if you look at the items in the list the ring of hotek + MR can help the units still visible in the magic phase, and the unit armour plus COB ward saves will help in the shooting phase, along with any terrain and any rolling terrain such as the Harpies.

The situation becomes more complex if he feels he wants to go for a win. There are ways to do it but they will require fairly creative use of the movement rules which, certainly in the ETC environment, will be frowned upon.

He does have weight of numbers on his side so one would expect to be able to get a draw in that situation without too much difficulty.


as well as steeds on your masters, , though these don't fit the theme.

So thanks again for this very useful topic and the detailed thoughts on every choice. I think it just inspired me to incorporate some of it in my efforts to write a list, maybe one following the suggestion of a manti in DAs first post.


Mon Feb 09, 2009 11:45 pm
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Hi DA,
I get a win against skaven this evening. Point difference was 850. The list was nice, a warlord, one plaguepriest, one warlock and a BSB. More than 250 skaven on the table and only a few were living in the end... a slaughter in the name of Khaine.

Tops:

- the corsairs with assassine cut through every unit they met. After having them in close combat my opposite could take one units away every turn.
- the naggarythe Banner was great and often a good help. I lost it nearly in turn 3 through a charge of 10 plague flail rats (don´t know the english name) but the hag survived and killed five so they flee.
- the hydra, terror and breath weapon was a lot of fun and in the end it gets a lot of cloase combats before the waplighning canon shoot her down.
- The warriors, with the cauldron these were realy good
- the witches. one unit was killed in the beginning and the second killed togehter with the hydra a units of slaves which was the beginning of the slaughter and the death of the strong right flank.

Flops:
- The masters, I didn´t get them in the close combat and the MR was useless because of less magic which was mostly against my small units of witch elfs and executioners. Also I put one master in the guard which wasn´t the plan to share the magic defense of the whole army
- The executioners. I lost most of them in turn 2 through magic and three survivers in turn 3 against the plague monks.
- The guard. Here I mage a big mistake in the deployment phase. I forget the ring and thought to have more strenght on the opposites strong flank. So I put them on the flank and lost the Hotek Ring and the MR in the center. Also it get´s no close combat. The flank unit flew from terror and after moving in the center the whole unit was killed by a ratling gun.


After all.
The army works and is a lot of fun after it is in close combat. The way to that is hard and with a lot of losses. I made a lot of errors in the deployment phase. Some tips here and some race specific tips would be good to learn more and avoid errors.

Kind Regards GeOrc


Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:52 am
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Congratulations on the win GeOrc.

The Guard:
It seems to me that the main error you made was to feel you had to spread your troops across the entire battlefield (from the way i read what you have said). With an army like yours i'd suggest you tried to keep things quite close together. This means you have better coverage from the ring of hotek and also more options with what to do with your cauldrons (and keeps things in range of your bsb's banner). Don't feel presured to fight the entire enemy army all at once, killing one part and turning on the rest is a good strategy.

Magic Resistance:
It seems to me that your MR did it's job perfectly: it deterred them from casting spells at the units with MR, thus keeping those expensive units alive and forcing them to cast at something else (this is what will generally happen. The trick as it seems you have realised is to keep as much of your army as possible covered by the ring of hotek (put the guard in the centre) and then cover those few units outside of range with the MR from your masters, giving your opponent no good options.

Losing the Executioners:
Ok, you made a mistake by not giving this unit magic resistance or protecting it with the ring of hotek, but lets forget that ( because you won't do it again). Other than that, with this army, there wasn't much you could do to stop your Exectioners from being magicked, and when there were only three left, they were gonna die to pretty much anything. I wouldn't worry overly much about this, it happens and there isn't much you can do about it (except try to work out where the enemy lines of sight are and block them with your harpies and witches)
Once again, congratulations on the win, i hope it is the first of many.
good luck
george.


Wed Feb 11, 2009 4:47 am
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Very very interesting thread! I am too looking for an ETC list with at least a COB in it. I'm going for competitiveness compared to theme, but there are still a lot of good stuff in here.

Things I had not thought about:

- Gaining multiple combat res from the BoN.
- Lining up the crew of a COB with another unit to gain multiple units in combat

New thoughts:

- If you add a hag to the small witch units you could use them as blockers, by deploying them 1x5 and marching them in front of enemy units. As long as you stay within 12" of the COB to gain stubborn and reroll your enemy can only kill the hag. This trick is more commonly know as the dire wolf conga line. It does have the weakness of fear causers autobreaking them thou...


In my experience a good opponent will marchblock, redirect and either charge you to death in turn 5-6 or avoid you at all cost going for the minor win. What I think you need is just 10 shades and more harpies. Those 10 shades will keep your backfield clear and with GW and the blessings can act as an extra combat unit. Harpies I would actually consider using to prevent my opponent from simply backing up. Land behind him and prevent him from backing and wheeling away. Otherwise try to redirect him into your own troops by fleeing and hopefully be catched!

Edit: More thoughts!

- To help against armies that seek to avoid you I suggest mounting the masters on dark steeds. At a reasonable price you gain more armour and speed on the masters so you can rush out and catch those units that avoid you. Also you can unjoin your units and place them right next to them to force your opponent into charge both them and the unit and thereby gaining more combat res from the BoN.

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Wed Feb 11, 2009 7:46 pm
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@GeOrc: well done my friend. I will analyse and comment in due course. Lots to think about.

I too got a win with my first outing with this list today. I scored a massacre over the new Lizardmen army. I'm going to start writing up some stuff to add into this thread now.


Wed Feb 11, 2009 9:56 pm
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Hi DA,
these are very good news I´m very excited. I´m looking forward to your analysis.

Kind Regards GeOrc


Wed Feb 11, 2009 10:07 pm
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GeOrc wrote:
Hi DA,
I get a win against skaven this evening. Point difference was 850. The list was nice, a warlord, one plaguepriest, one warlock and a BSB. More than 250 skaven on the table and only a few were living in the end... a slaughter in the name of Khaine.

This is good news and exactly what we are looking for! :twisted:

Tops:

- the corsairs with assassine cut through every unit they met. After having them in close combat my opposite could take one units away every turn.

When you can get it into combat it does work very, very well. Even in a standard build. How did the Assassin equipment combination work for you? Manbane doesn't really help against Skaven as you are already 1 strength above their toughness, but the rune of khaine, ahw and frenzy should have worked well.

- the naggarythe Banner was great and often a good help. I lost it nearly in turn 3 through a charge of 10 plague flail rats (don´t know the english name) but the hag survived and killed five so they flee.

You did remember that the combat res is kills + BSB + banner bonus yes?

- the hydra, terror and breath weapon was a lot of fun and in the end it gets a lot of cloase combats before the waplighning canon shoot her down.

I'm thinking the list would work MUCH, MUCH better with 2 Hydras. I know you can't have double rare at the ETC but for other situations. What is your opinion?

- The warriors, with the cauldron these were realy good
- the witches. one unit was killed in the beginning and the second killed togehter with the hydra a units of slaves which was the beginning of the slaughter and the death of the strong right flank.

I lost one unit of Witches early on too. They seem to be a magnet for ranged attacks. As George says, that is fine because when they die it is only 50pts. Less than a unit of Harpies!! :lol:

Flops:
- The masters, I didn´t get them in the close combat and the MR was useless because of less magic which was mostly against my small units of witch elfs and executioners. Also I put one master in the guard which wasn´t the plan to share the magic defense of the whole army
- The executioners. I lost most of them in turn 2 through magic and three survivers in turn 3 against the plague monks.
- The guard. Here I mage a big mistake in the deployment phase. I forget the ring and thought to have more strenght on the opposites strong flank. So I put them on the flank and lost the Hotek Ring and the MR in the center. Also it get´s no close combat. The flank unit flew from terror and after moving in the center the whole unit was killed by a ratling gun.

This are all mistakes because of inexperience. This is not an easy list to make work as you set so many restrictions. It will take time to remember everything you need to do. I found it difficult to decide the best deployment today myself as well. It will come with time, and we have plenty before August.

After all.
The army works and is a lot of fun after it is in close combat. The way to that is hard and with a lot of losses. I made a lot of errors in the deployment phase. Some tips here and some race specific tips would be good to learn more and avoid errors.

I will work on this for you.

Kind Regards GeOrc


Next up an overview of my game today...


Wed Feb 11, 2009 10:45 pm
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My game today was with the amended list containing 2 units of Harpies and was against this:

Slann with +1 power dice and knowledge of all spells (he chose Heavens), Rod of the Storm, Cupped Hands of the Old Ones
Level 1 on an Ancient Stegadon with the Engine of the Gods (took Heavens)
Level 2 on foot with 2 scrolls (took Heavens)
Scar vet with armour, shield and Pirahna Blade (double wounds)

Skink Cohort with 16 Skinks and 2 Kroxigor
15 Saurus Warriors with hand weapon and shield
15 Saurus Warriors with hand weapon and shield
15 Saurus Warriors with hand weapon and shield

3 Terradons
5 Cold One Riders with the movement banner

3 Razordons

Looking across the table from left to right he deployed as thus:

Razordons / Stegadon / 15 Saurus / Cohort with level 2, 15 Saurus behind / Cold One Riders / 15 Saurus with Scar Vet, Slann was behind / Terradons

Left to right I went:

14 Corsairs (which I figured had a good chance against the Razordon shooting) + Hydra (which I always run either on or close to a flank) / Witch Elves in a column 1 wide / Harpies with 12 Executioners behind. The Master with Soulrender was in the Exes / COB + General / 15 Warriors with Cold Blooded Banner / Witch Elves 5 wide. The 12 Black Guard sat behind these 2 units / COB with BSB / Harpies with 20 Warriors behind (war banner unit). The Assassin was in here along with the second Master.

The battle plan was to run straight at him, run the gauntlet of the magic and get into combat as soon as possible. As soon as he committed the Razordons to the left flank I figured the Hydra/Corsairs combo would be enough to keep them occupied while I got across the board. Fortunately I got first turn. Here is a summary of what I did with the COBs each turn:

Turn 1
General - gave a 5+w to the small Warrior block. BSB gave a 5+w to the other Warriors. The ring of hotek was protecting the centre so I did this to preserve my static combat res units.

Turn 2
General gives 5+w to the Corsairs who have advanced into charge range for the Razordons. BSB continues to protect the 20 strong Warriors with a 5+w.

Turn 3
Same blessings as turn 2 as the Corsairs charge the Razordons. They stand and shoot with 2 artillery dice each! Thanks to their sdc and the ward I only lose 2 as the charge goes home!

Turn 4
General gives +1 attack to the BG as they line up to get charged by the Lizzie combat troops. BSB gives +1 attack to the 20 strong Warrior block as it lines up to get charged by the Saurus/Scar Vet unit. The Assassin was revealed as we were playing open lists anyway.

Turn 5
General gives +1 attack to the 15 Warriors as they wait to get cherged by a unit of Saurus. The 20 Warriors get 5+w as inbound magic is expected from the Slann.

Turn 6
Nothing needed as the Slann is the only thing left standing... :twisted:

Game highlights are:

1. Until combat starts the DE turn is very quick, therefore time can be taken to think through the movement phase to get it right.

2. 20 Warriors and 5 Witch Elves winning combat against Saurus by 18!

3. Harpies winning combat against Terradons by 4 thanks to the banner.

4. The Corsair saves as they run the gauntlet of double shots from when they charged the Razordons.

5. DEs winning every combat phase.

6. Lots of troops on the table!


Points of concern:

1. Flanks are vulnerable with no Shades or shooting to pose a counter threat.

2. The list is very vulnerable to area of effect spells which do not activate MR or the ring.

3. Executioners are rubbish without a boost from a COB.

Changes to consider:

1. Give the Assassin Rending Stars. They can only be taken by an Assassin so they fit within the Khaine theme.

2. As pointed out by others, put Hags into the Witch Elf units. This can be easily achieved by dropping the Corsair champion and one Executioner.

Your thoughts GeOrc??


Wed Feb 11, 2009 11:38 pm
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I suppose it's a typo that your master deployed in the executioners?

I think rending stars on the assassin would be ideal as well, as you have several other ways of increasing his attacks, but you need a way to hurt high toughness targets at range.

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Thu Feb 12, 2009 8:59 am
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Haplo wrote:
I suppose it's a typo that your master deployed in the executioners?

I think rending stars on the assassin would be ideal as well, as you have several other ways of increasing his attacks, but you need a way to hurt high toughness targets at range.


No it's not a typo, it's an error on my part :oops: I just wasn't thinking :|

That explains why he died, when I challenged the Skink Priest as the Stegadon charged into their flank when the Saurus held their charge - the Exes were thinking "What the hell are you doing here mate? You're not one of us so go and throw youself under that rampaging monster!"

Another thing to remember about the list is that - watch the unit deployment so the characters end up in the best (and legal :lol: ) location.

Moving on...

I was thinking about rending stars over night. I think they are a must GeOrc. It fits the theme as I said so I strongly advise we put them in. If you consider the ETC for a moment, and assume that the vote goes in favour of open lists, your opponent will know that you don't have any potential s7. If your opponent is an Epire player and has the War Altar he knows he can safetly sit the Altar in the centre of your army, casting Cleansing Flare all day long. The changes in the 7th ed BRB faq means that it doesn't activate MR as it is an AOE spell, and won't activate the ring either. That's a big problem which we can do something to avoid if we make the change.

It also goes someway towards helping to protect the flanks, as well as giving the option to wound Bloodthirsters and the like.

I'm also liking champions in the Witch Elf units the more I think about it.


Last edited by Dark Alliance on Thu Feb 12, 2009 1:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Thu Feb 12, 2009 9:42 am
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