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Against the New Lizardmen 
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Noble
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I decided to make a topic about this, because I expect that the Dark Elves will face a major foil in the new Lizardmen book.

With their solid performance in the Magic phase and infantry and Monster units that potentially outclass our own, how is everyone dealing with the new Lizardmen? Specifically, I foresee Saurus and Stegadon units posing a large problem for armies that don't include a lot of magic (which is risky), or a Dragon (which is usually unpopular with opponents).


Tue Feb 10, 2009 1:00 pm
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Malekith's Best Friend
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Saurus keep ripping me open and Temple Guard are even worse. Even my trusty Cold One Knight/Hydra Banner combo isn't doing much. I'm still trying to come up with a Lizardman fix =(


Tue Feb 10, 2009 4:34 pm
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Noble
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I´m going against the new book tommorow. There will definitely be ring of hotek, assassin with rending stars, black guard with armour piercing and a hydra. Well actually I always use all of these things except rending stars :)

The biggest problem will IMO be the engine of the gods and temple guards with slaan after that.


Tue Feb 10, 2009 6:47 pm
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Depending on what your Magic looks like, Pit of Shades might be a late-game answer to the Temple Guard if you can muster it.

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Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:10 pm
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the lizardmen are the biggest joke of all armies....all GW did was update stuff that would make them more money and they still suck.....we still can outmanuever them and as long as we choose when we fight then we are golden....our hydras are way better then their stegagaydons anyday of the week

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Tue Feb 10, 2009 8:28 pm
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Noble
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Lizardmen were a decent army before, now they can be only stronger!
And engine of the gods is absolutely devestating for DE since we generally have small units with T3 (in case he uses D6 S4 in 2D6), can protect himself and other units against our precious shooting and lowers the casting value required to cast a spell and tough more easily avoids ring of hotek.

So my main priority is to get rid of it first and then go after the other stuff.


Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:47 pm
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they did get a new magic item that if they miscast they can make an opponent wizard roll on the miscast table and take the hit...so watch out for that.....i guess the guy who plays lizardmen sucks cause i have never even come close to ever sweating out a victory against them. that engine of the Gods sounds nasty but it is also dependant on 2d6 dice for range and once again if we control movement he will be screwed once he puts it in range....2 RBT's makes that large target not look so tough..i would think if your going against a multiple stegadon list leaving the hydra's at home to take the RBT's is best for them. plus a master on pegasus with caledors bane becomes a nuisance..the ancient only gets 3 attacks in close combat....i just think we can play games with them and do so much redirecting that they suck

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Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:59 pm
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I think you're forgetting about the availability of cheap, Core skirmishers, plus unbreakable swarms, and the effectiveness of Lizardmen shooting with Skinks both ranked and skirmisher, Chameleons, Salamanders, Razordons, and Stegadons. That is a lot of shooting and if you've never encountered well used Skinks or Salamanders with the old book then count yourself lucky, because against T3 elves it can get very nasty.


Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:19 am
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Noble

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Having played lizards for a few years, I am very familiar with them and the new list appears to be neither better nor worse, just different. Now that I have joined the dark side, I am trying to come up with ways to beat them and I think the dark elves are likely one of the best armies out there to take on the new lizzies. Here are a few ideas for dealing with the greatest threats:

Engine of the Gods - the skink priest is T2 so gets wounded very easily. Even two units of RXBs can quickly kill him off as he will have to make a lot of armour saves at -1 and the 5+ ward won't last forever. The lore of metal default spell is also very effective as once the priest is dead, it can be used to pick off saurus characters who will likely have armour saves that means they get wounded on 2+ and there is only 1 ward item.

Assassins - while rending stars and manbane are great, they get you too close to a steggie/EoG. A new combo I just tried out to great effect was an assassin with RXB,2nd HW, manbane and rune of khain. With BS 9, he hits on 2+ and wounds on 4+ from 24" away!! If the steggie gets close, charge him in and watch 4+d3 attacks at S6 finish the last couple of wounds.

Cohorts - this can be an effective unit as it moves 12" and gets 6 x S6 attacks. However, it is very vulnerable to shooting as the skinks die if you whisper softly at them with RXBs. A great tactic I have found to deal with them is to march a hydra straight toward the unit and flame them from ~4" away but facing in a direction you WANT to overrun in. This removes most of the rank bonus and you might get a lucky panic check. If not and you get really lucky, the cohort will charge you. The skinks will do nothing to the hydra and, on average, the 6 x S6 attacks will only inflict 1 unsaved wound. 13 attacks back against only skinks should kill off about 7-8 skinks, which will leave you with about +7 or better combat res = only hold on insane courage. The unit should be down to ~4 models or less at this point so even if you don't catch them, they cannot rally and the hydra can go after other targets.

Razordons and sallies - while they skirmish for movement, they are not US1 and thus are easier to hit with shooting as they don't get the -1 to shoot at. Toss enough RXBs or RBTs at them and they will melt quickly. Also, chill wind only has to inflict 1 wound and the unit cannot shoot the next phase!! Finally, a hydra blast with the template over the handlers will wipe them out, causing a monster reaction check at ld 4 unless they are close to the general.

Saurus & temple guard - If you don't have a CoB list with a block of ASF executioners with 2 x attacks each (hag BSB with ASF banner), you certainly cannot stand toe to toe with this infantry - it is just too tough and its attacks will really hurt elves even without the saurus characters helping out. However, dark elves have great mobility and it should be possible to set up flank charges on these relatively ponderous units. Throw in a supporting flank charge from a hydra or a unit of COKs and you can break the saurus in one round or will be in a good position to grind down the temple guard as static combat resolution will keep the combat working in your favour.

terradons - harpies are adequate to deal with this threat as they provide 360 protection and have enough attacks to beat them in combat.

Magic - the ring of hotek is your friend against a slann list. While the lore of shadows is great if you can get pit of shades, the lore of metal is great for picking off characters and dark magic has very effective spells for neutralizing shooting or killing masses of skinks. Even a slaan cannot stop everything so decide what is vital and go for it 110%.

That should be enough. The new lizzies did not experience the improvement that the vamps and daemons did and they are definitely defeatable with druuchi skill, cunning and ruthlessness :twisted:


Wed Feb 11, 2009 1:42 am
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Assassins can't have repeater crossbows, only repeater handbows which are 8" range, 4" shorter than rending stars!

Also chillwind has to kill 1 model to prevent them from shooting. Still, it can be a skink but if all hits go into razordons/salamanders then it gets a bit harder. And monster reaction check is always taken on monster's own Ld, no matter where the general is so that's a nice trick (and used often against our hydrae)

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Wed Feb 11, 2009 1:49 am
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Also, you're forgetting about Skink Skrimishers, possibly one of the most under-rated units in WFB, until you meet someone that has 3 or 4 units of them and knows how to use them, firing off tons of poisoned missiles and doing stuff we use harpies, RHB equipped corsairs, and shades for. Sure they're individually easy to kill, but when they cost like 80 or 90 points for a dozen, can screen their more expensive units from our shooting and magic, and can get Frenzied or Hatred filled units to follow them to set up advantageous charges for their heavier units or guard the flanks of the Saurus Warriors from most of the units we use to remove ranks.

So while yes I do agree they didn't get the boost VC and DoC got, and they are definitely beatable, and DE with their Harpies, Shades, DR, and RXBelves have more tools than many armies to deal with the lizzy's tricks. A good Lizzy general will make you work hard for a win with units that can contest in terms of controlling the movement phase.

Edit: According to the most recent FAQ RoBI can't pick a character out of a chariot or ridden monster so it isn't as useful for targeting a Skink Priest with the Engine of the Gods Steggy.


Wed Feb 11, 2009 7:13 am
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I have some problems with lizards but my main opponent with lizards is better than me. I have come to the opinion that corsairs with handbows are good against the biggest threat which is terradons and stegadons.

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Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:28 pm
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Dalamar wrote:
Assassins can't have repeater crossbows, only repeater handbows which are 8" range, 4" shorter than rending stars!



Doh, that's what I get for being a noob DE player and not reading closely!!! Mind you, the rending stars are no slouch at S7 and essentially 17" range after moving!! Thanks for correcting this for me so I don't embarass myself in something other than a pick up game with a friend :)


Wed Feb 11, 2009 1:50 pm
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Guardian112 wrote:

Edit: According to the most recent FAQ RoBI can't pick a character out of a chariot or ridden monster so it isn't as useful for targeting a Skink Priest with the Engine of the Gods Steggy.


Just downloaded the new FAQ and while I cannot fathom the rational for randomizing something that has "no targeting restrictions apply" other than LOS, I still think it is very useful. Since the new FAQ also allows its use into combat, parking a sorceress on a hill or a building should allow you LOS and thus the ability to continue using it on saurus characters in combat. Thanks for the FAQ heads up.


Wed Feb 11, 2009 1:55 pm
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Beware the Ring of Hotek against the Lizardmen. It will force the Slaan to miscast, he'll use the cuped-hands to give that miscast to you, and you'll end up paying for it. Either deploy your Sorderesses on the extreme flank so they aren't in line of sight to the Slaan or don't bring them at all.


Wed Feb 11, 2009 3:50 pm
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The new LM are actually pretty damn decent. They're often small in number but tough to kill. The new saurus are fantastic with their 2A, spears and still retaining a 4+ save. The LM lord choices are rock hard as always, but now atleast they are almost identical is destructive capability (mainly comparing tooled up Slann and Carnosaur Oldblood), just take what even suits your playstyle!

All in all, good army, will lead to tough games.

Number #1 Priority: Skink priest on EOTG, suicide charge it!!

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Wed Feb 11, 2009 5:30 pm
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Noble
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Quote:
Assassins - while rending stars and manbane are great, they get you too close to a steggie/EoG. A new combo I just tried out to great effect was an assassin with RXB,2nd HW, manbane and rune of khain. With BS 9, he hits on 2+ and wounds on 4+ from 24" away!! If the steggie gets close, charge him in and watch 4+d3 attacks at S6 finish the last couple of wounds.


While this does indeed sounds good, I think that manbane doesn´t do anything to repeater handbow. Manbane raises the models strenth. So since RHB has its own strenth value (unlike rending stars!) manbane actually even removes poison from it!

I also played against the new lizards today and lost by a massacre. They are not incredibly hard to beat once you get rid of the engine. Sadly, I failed a terror check with my 11 executioners (with a manbane and rune armed assassin) on Ld 10, who would than get the +1 attack from the cauldron and charged the stegy on the front and after that even charge a unit of temple guards in the flank (who were already fighting a hydra on the other flank). After the game we rolled some dices to see if I would kill the stegadon outright! Not a single problem :D damn it...

As I said before, the engine is a pesk! The ward save is annoying as hell and that damage option killed 5 shades, 3 black guards, 1 executioner (with 5+ ward) and a RBT! Yes he rolled 10 for rangle but anyway... Good thing my lord killed the priest after that.

And if you wish to shoot at him, just forget it! Maybe you get lucky enough to randomize the single bolt right on him but otherwise you will be dead before you manage to kill him with shooting!


Last edited by Rugi on Wed Feb 11, 2009 9:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Wed Feb 11, 2009 7:30 pm
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After reading over the book am I right in thinking that Slann in a TG unit cannot now be targeted by magic, shooting etc...

Any ideas on how to take on such a unit apart from avoiding it??

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Wed Feb 11, 2009 8:07 pm
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Stonecutter wrote:
Razordons and sallies - while they skirmish for movement, they are not US1 and thus are easier to hit with shooting as they don't get the -1 to shoot at. Toss enough RXBs or RBTs at them and they will melt quickly. Also, chill wind only has to inflict 1 wound and the unit cannot shoot the next phase!! Finally, a hydra blast with the template over the handlers will wipe them out, causing a monster reaction check at ld 4 unless they are close to the general.


Okay, I've had this conversation with Lizardmen players once 7th edition came out (w/ 6th ed. book), and the new Lizard army book doesn't seem to clear it up. My side, of course, being since sallies were US3, the unit doesn't get the benefit for skirmishers. Their counterargument being, of course, that the skinks are US1 and so should get the bonus because you don't randomize until you hit. Has there been any official clarification/FAQ on this?

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Wed Feb 11, 2009 9:59 pm
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Dalamar wrote:

Also chillwind has to kill 1 model to prevent them from shooting.


Point of fact it doesn't. I have looked into this. Chillwind states that a unit taking a casualty cannot shoot next turn. The difference being the use of the word 'casualty' instead of 'wound' as with the 6th ed DE book.

If you look at pg 31 in the BRB it clarifys the use of the word 'casualty' when applied to multi wound creatures. Ergo I believe that a wounded mutli-wound creature, such as a Hydra for example, would not be able to shoot if chillwind causes a casualty.


Thu Feb 12, 2009 11:54 am
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Sorry but I don't get it, that page states that for a multiwound creature to be removed as casualty you still need to deal as many wounds as it has on its profile.

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Thu Feb 12, 2009 4:28 pm
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IMO that whole section of the rules equates casualties to mean wounds...


Fri Feb 13, 2009 12:35 am
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I'll read through that completely (whole section, not just the multiwound creatures part) when I have a moment and give you my thoughts on the matter.

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7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)

8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16


Fri Feb 13, 2009 1:31 am
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Dark Alliance wrote:
IMO that whole section of the rules equates casualties to mean wounds...


How? All three sections under Removing Casualties mentions what to do when a model runs out of wounds but never uses the terms interchangeably.

"If models have more than 1 wound, casualties are removed as follows."

That is the only thing I can see as explaining your interpretation, and only if you take casualty to mean something in the rules that is contrary to the general understanding of the word and to the common-sense understanding as it relates to removing casualties with single wound models. Obviously, if they mean the same thing, there is no reason to have the sentence:

"Where troops have only a single wound, casualties are removed as follows..."


Fri Feb 13, 2009 1:49 am
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alright, lets dissect that text (and someone could split the topic since it derailed a little from original question :) )

Starting from the beginning:

BRB, page 31 wrote:
Most troops can only sustain one wound before they fall casualty. Some models can take several before they become casualties, but they are the exception rather than norm.


This already says that some models can take several wounds before they become a casualty. I think that's enough to decide that models are treated as casualties when their W is reduced to 0 (in most cases, some spells/effects skil W characteristic after all).
Multiple Wound Casualties part only explains how to remove models with multiple wounds.

Having said that, I fully agree that single wound should be enough for Chillwind effect to kick in (it would make more sense fluff-wise as well) but I simply cannot find any ruling to support that and as far as I'm aware the latest Dark Elf FAQ didn't change chillwind in the slightest.

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7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)

8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16


Fri Feb 13, 2009 2:04 am
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