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The Heartless - 11/09 - UKGT testing & minor changes 
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Chris Tomlin
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Hey,

So I made my return post last week and figured it's about time I gave you a list to look at! I'm doing this on a train, on my phone so am gonna try to keep it brief tonight.

This is my first draft at bringing The Heartless bang up to date with 7th edition. Once I come closer to settling on a list I'll give you some "exciting" fluff to let you know where this army came from and where it's at now, with the obligitory reference to The Black Sun. But enough of that, feast your eyes on this atrocity and tell me what's wrong with it!

Supreme Sorceress - Level 4, Dark Pegasus, Pendant of Khaeleth, Darkstar Cloak, Dispell Scroll. (395)

Sorceress - Level 2, Dark Steed, 2 Dispell Scrolls. (197)

5 Dark Riders - RXB, Musician. (117)
5 Dark Riders - RXB, Musician. (117)
5 Dark Riders - RXB, Musician. (117)

5 Harpies (55)
5 Harpies (55)
5 Shades - AHW. (85)

6 Shades - GW. (108)
Assassin - AHW, Rending Stars, Manbane. (151)

6 Cold One Knights - Full Command, War Banner, Ring of Hotek. (252)
War Hydra (175)
War Hydra (175)

Total; 1,999 points
Power dice; 9
Dispell dice; 5 + 3 Scrolls

So, there we have it! I thought bout losing a Hydra, a unit of Dark Riders and a Musician to get 2 Bolt Throwers and 10 RXBmen. Dunno?
Is the assassin any good, I think probably not. Does the combination of items I've given him work like I want it to? Does the High Sorceress need the Focus Familiar instead of the Darkstar Cloak?
Do tournaments use any form of comp score at the moment?

My fingers hurt now! Let me know what you think, and hit me with some ideas.
Thanks alot, have fun,

Chris
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Last edited by Xizor on Fri Sep 11, 2009 8:07 pm, edited 15 times in total.



Tue Feb 10, 2009 10:08 pm
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nice list....i would go familiar over cloak personally

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Tue Feb 10, 2009 10:25 pm
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I would go with the FF on the lvl 4 and drop a scroll on the lvl 2 for for ToF or the DSC.

Hydras are great, if you have two and don't mind a certain degree of hostility, then run both.

The assassin works fine and will deliver 3 S-7 attacks versus T-5 or higher within 12." I prefer a model with a save and a magic weapon though just for those times when ASF is nullified or the enemy unit is too complex to avoid having a model in contact after he strikes (say wardancers with a champ, noble, and troop models)

ASF banner on the CoKs is good in case they go stupid, and you magic defense is good so the ring could go for somthing else. I actualy like sword of battle for 3 x S-4 magic attacks, for those times where ethereals or woodies are about.

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Tue Feb 10, 2009 10:53 pm
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Focus familiar is a must on the lord and I would try to buff those shade units up to 10 and let them concentrate on shooting instead of fighting!

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Tue Feb 10, 2009 11:27 pm
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Xizor wrote:
Hey,

Hey mate, welcome back

So I made my return post last week and figured it's about time I gave you a list to look at! I'm doing this on a train, on my phone so am gonna try to keep it brief tonight.

This is my first draft at bringing The Heartless bang up to date with 7th edition. Once I come closer to settling on a list I'll give you some "exciting" fluff to let you know where this army came from and where it's at now, with the obligitory reference to The Black Sun. But enough of that, feast your eyes on this atrocity and tell me what's wrong with it!

Supreme Sorceress - Level 4, Dark Pegasus, Pendant of Khaeleth, Darkstar Cloak, Dispell Scroll. (395)

The Focus Familiar is really good here, as others have stated, the ability to hide behind cover and still be able to cast at things is really good. It also allows you to hide from siren song. If you do do this swap, then i'd swap the pendant for 2 null talisman. The pendant isn't very good against light shooting anyway (5+ ward), you won't get hit with warmachines (you hide and use the FF) leaving magic, and MR 2 is better than the ward save since it protects against things like spells that have no strength value, and protects the peg.


Sorceress - Level 2, Dark Steed, 2 Dispell Scrolls. (197)

Do you really need 2 scrolls? i'd either take the Darkstar cloak here (if you made the swap above) or the tome of furion

5 Dark Riders - RXB, Musician. (117)
5 Dark Riders - RXB, Musician. (117)
5 Dark Riders - RXB, Musician. (117)

5 Harpies (55)
5 Harpies (55)
5 Shades - AHW. (85)

6 Shades - GW. (108)
Assassin - AHW, Rending Stars, Manbane. (151)

i'd almost be tempted to try to sneak the cloak of shadows onto your assasin (and use him like you use the exalted with book of secrets in your burning sun)

6 Cold One Knights - Full Command, War Banner, Ring of Hotek. (252)

These are 1) very expensive for 6 wounds and 2) kinda risky: remember the ring makes YOU miscast if you try to cast while within 12" of the bearer, so you will have to be careful with your movement phases (and a stupidity could result in forcing you to either not cast for a turn or force your sorc out of cover). I'd drop the ring mate, and either go for some other nicety (maybe a magic lance/some magic resistance?)

War Hydra (175)
War Hydra (175)

These boys aren't gonna make you any friends, but i'm sure you already knew that (if i remember rightly, your old chaos dwarves had 8? bolt throwers?)

Total; 1,999 points
Power dice; 9
Dispell dice; 5 + 3 Scrolls

So, there we have it! I thought bout losing a Hydra, a unit of Dark Riders and a Musician to get 2 Bolt Throwers and 10 RXBmen. Dunno?
Hydrae are much better than 2 RBT's and taking a firebase gives you a static element your army doesn't need.
Is the assassin any good, I think probably not. Does the combination of items I've given him work like I want it to?
Assasin are amazing, and yes, manbane rending stars do make you str 7 vs t5.
Does the High Sorceress need the Focus Familiar instead of the Darkstar Cloak?
as i said above, yesDo tournaments use any form of comp score at the moment?

My fingers hurt now! Let me know what you think, and hit me with some ideas.
Thanks alot, have fun,

Chris
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Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:16 am
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Chris Tomlin
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Hey,

Thanks for the replies, some good feedback already.

As I thought, the Focus Familiar is blatently a better choice than the Darkstar Cloak, guess I was finding it hard to shake off old habits!

I personally think that Shades with Great Weapons seems like a great idea, I would bump that unit up a bit if I have points spare on the next draft of the list. I'm not convinced the Additional Hand Weapons are needed on the other unit, they will be dropped if I need points.

A massive thankyou to geoguswrek, that is exactly the sort of post I was hoping to get back! Great to see you still around, I look forward to more from you. All your points on the Familar are what I thought myself, but its nice to have some confirmation!! I also think you might just be right on the Pendant of Khaeleth. I guess I just put it in without really thinking as it seems so good! As for the scrolls, I could maybe drop 1. We shall see though. I do like 2 scrolls minimum really. Cloak of Shadows almost seems a must now you mention it, i really do need to familiarise myself with this new book. Cheers for the pointer, I'll even let you off for calling The Black Sun something else :P
I am also unsure by the massive ammount of points I've sunk into that Cold One Knight unit..I may rethink that.
Your memory serves you well, my rather unfriendly Chaos Dwarf army did feature 8 Bolt Throwers..aswell as a brace of Earthshaker Cannons. I dont usually play with armies quite as bad as that though, but yeah, I can take the hostility I may receive for my two big beasties!

I don't have time to put up a new list tonight, but I've taken on board all the suggestions and will put up the revised version in the next day or so. In the meantime please do continue to feed me with ideas, comments etc

Thanks again,
Chris
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Wed Feb 11, 2009 10:10 pm
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Welcome back X.

I agree with much of what Geoguswrek said. The high sorceress with the focus familiar and dark peg should be relatively safe. Even more that null talismans, a popular addition is the pearl of infinite bleakness. This allows her immunity from proximity to terror causers. The downside being that she wouldn't be able to flee.

With so many dice and scrolls, I would personally drop the ring of hotek and the warbanner from the cold one knights and give them the standard of slaughter. Unlike 6th edition, it works more than one time making it much easier to break things on the charge.

I also agree with Geoguswrek about the cloak of shadows. It could really allow you to do some nasty things with the assassin because yes he really is that good.

Finally, two hydras will get some nasty looks, but most of your army is so soft, I can't see why anyone would have a real problem with them being your only "tough" units.

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Wed Feb 11, 2009 11:43 pm
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Sorry for the black sun slip up, i was really tired when i wrote the post mate. That is a mistake which is unforgiveable.
If you have a look at GeOrc's Khainite army thread, DA presents a few nice ideas, which while not applicable to this army, may be useful things to think about in the future.

On the ADHW shades: these points seem a bit of a waste now i think about it: anything that you are able to kill with 10 s3 hatred attacks, you were probabbly able to kill with 10 bs5 s3 ap shots from the shades RxB's. The only real need for the hand weapons is if you are charging warmachines, but in this case, most crews would have died to 5 attacks, and dwarves could well stand up to all 10. you also have harpies which are better at WM hunting, cheaper and don't steal a special slot.


Thu Feb 12, 2009 1:22 am
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Chris Tomlin
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Hey,

77, great to see you about, hows it going? geoguswrek, dont worry bout the slip up, I was kidding :P
After taking on board whats been said, here is a second draft of the list:

Supreme Sorceress - Level 4, Dark Pegasus, 2 Null Talismans, Focus Familiar, Dispel Scroll. (390)

Sorceress - Level 2, Dark Steed, Darkstar Cloak, Dispel Scroll. (197)

5 Dark Riders - RXB, Musician. (117)
5 Dark Riders - RXB, Musician. (117)
5 Dark Riders - RXB, Musician. (117)

5 Harpies (55)
5 Harpies (55)
5 Shades (80)

7 Shades - GW. (126)
Assassin - AHW, Rending Stars, Manbane, Cloak of Twilight. (171)

6 Cold One Knights - Standard Bearer & Musician, Standard of Slaughter. (221)
War Hydra (175)
War Hydra (175)

Total; 1,996 points
Power dice; 9 + Cloak of Twilight
Dispel dice; 5 + 2 Scrolls

Not massively different, but I didnt really want it to be. Im happy with the overall shape of the Army. I'm liking the look of Null Talismans, was considering a third on the Supreme Sorceress but thought it seemed like overkill. I dropped the Champion from the Cold One Knights, but I did consider keeping him in and giving him a Null Talisman aswell. Ive managed to get the Cloak of Twilight onto the Assassin, cant believe I missed that little gem! Also bumped the GW Shades up to 7..though is that a wise move? They just seem like a really usefull little unit, but am I thinking they are better than they are?

Please comment on the current list, as to help me further refine it. As mentioned above, I do mostly want to keep the army looking like this, so no massive changes please. I plan on buying this army at the beginning of March, so still a while to work on it.

Thanks for all the input thus far,
Chris
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Thu Feb 12, 2009 7:40 pm
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I would go back to having a champ on the knights and taking a Null Talisman. I'm not sure where you'll get the points. Dropping the shades back down to 6 will help you get there, but I wouldn't want to see you lose the cloak on the assassin. 6 shades instead of 7 won't make a huge difference, its just 1 less attack in combat and 1 less wound you have for the unit.

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Thu Feb 12, 2009 8:46 pm
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Hey Loki,

Yeah I think you are right mate. Champ + Null Talisman on the Knights does seem good. Anyone else got any thoughts on the matter...or ideas on where to get the points (other than the lost 7th Shade)?

Cheers,
Chris

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Thu Feb 12, 2009 8:59 pm
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Loki wrote:
I would go back to having a champ on the knights and taking a Null Talisman. I'm not sure where you'll get the points. Dropping the shades back down to 6 will help you get there, but I wouldn't want to see you lose the cloak on the assassin. 6 shades instead of 7 won't make a huge difference, its just 1 less attack in combat and 1 less wound you have for the unit.


One null off the supreme sorc and a shade will do it. 5 DD and 2 scrolls aren't that bad. As I said before, sword of battle on the CoK champ is 3 x S-4 magic attacks per turn. Sword of Might or a null are two other options.

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Thu Feb 12, 2009 9:04 pm
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I would maybe drop 1 unit of riders for 10 RXBmen with shields. They are the same cost and it can give your opponent a nice draw considering not having any bolt throwers.

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Thu Feb 12, 2009 10:05 pm
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I don't know about that. The rxbs would be the only thing that would really stand still in the army. They would be outpaced by everything else. I think the army is pretty good as a mobile hard hitter.

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Fri Feb 13, 2009 12:12 am
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The idea of having 10RXBmen as even though the army is fast against a warriors or combat army they have a nice focus point. So you can work around that point whilst the RXBmen pour fire They will die but the enemy will be deploy agianst the unit as it is the only threat and if they ignore you have a lot more shots coming in.

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Fri Feb 13, 2009 8:34 am
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I must second the thought of exchanging a unit of dark riders with rxb elves, as I have been far from impressed by dark riders against other armies chaff. they also give you a decent screen to hide your cold ones behind if facing heavy shooting. Just turn and expand frontage and the screen is gone so your cold ones can move out.

Also I think you should consider what role you wish your shades to play. You already have 2 skirmishing combat units in the hydras and a heavy hitter in the knights. You might be better off focusing on shooting and getting 2 decent seized units. They are the best shots in the army and can really keep those great eagles and other chaff in check. Rxbs on the dark riders on the other hand I rarely find effective so maybe drop them and increase the number of shooting shades. If there is one thing that dark riders actually can do it is fighting as both rider and mount gains hatred so maybe let them focus on that role.

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Fri Feb 13, 2009 2:14 pm
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Haplo wrote:
I must second the thought of exchanging a unit of dark riders with rxb elves


Agreed. Shielded RXB are the most flexible unit in the DE list. They shoot, melee as good as any of our core, and have the best save of any of our infantry.

Switching one unit of DR for RXB would be a good thing, and dropping the RXB on the last two DR and the 5 shades would get you a second unit of 10 with a muso with points to get another magic item on your sorceress.

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Fri Feb 13, 2009 3:04 pm
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Hey,

I think I'm definately interested by the idea of adding some RXBmen, though it would only be a single unit of 10. I'm not totally convinced though, Ill post a list below.

I also think that for now, I'm going to leave the Knight unit without a Champion equipped with a Null Stone. If I find Im lacking it (or indeed any other nicety the Champion could have) I can make the changes later. Only playtesting will show me this though. My gut feeling is that I'll be ok without it.

The list:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-The Heartless-
2,000 point Dark Elf Army

Karst Ether'Rage (Supreme Sorceress) - Level 4, Dark Pegasus, 2 Null Talismans, Focus Familiar, Dispel Scroll. (390)
Menardi Qel Droma (Sorceress) - Level 2, Dark Steed, Darkstar Cloak, Dispel Scroll. (197)

5 Dark Riders - Repeater Crossbows, Musician. (117)
5 Dark Riders - Repeater Crossbows, Musician. (117)

10 Repeater Crossbowmen - Shields. (110)

5 Harpies (55)
5 Harpies (55)
5 Shades (80)

7 Shades - Great Weapons. (126)
Cyuss (Assassin) - Additional Hand Weapon, Rending Stars, Manbane, Cloak of Twilight. (171)

6 Cold One Knights - Standard Bearer & Musician, Standard of Slaughter. (221)
War Hydra (175)
War Hydra (175)

Total; 1,989 points
Power Dice; 9 + Cloak of Twilight
Dispel Dice; 5 + 2 Scrolls

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ok so there it is. Thought I'd bring back my old format of list writing, introducing my Characters names aswell. As I said in my first post, Ill get some fluff up to go with the army at some point. Blah blah blah...

So anyway, the only change is a straight swap; one unit of Dark Riders for the 10 Crossbowmen. Forget what I said at the top, Im think I am now more in favour of this list! This now leaves me with 11 points to play with. I must admit I am tempted to try and squueze a third Null Talisman on the High Sorceress. Overkill though? Perhaps.

Im still interested to know peoples experiances and opinions on Great Weapon Shades, I have to say they were probably the new addition that excited me the most. I'm happy to drop the unit to 6 strong if I need the points from the 7th man, but I wouldnt be against making the unit larger aswell.

Other than numbers, options, items etc I dont really want to mess with the list much more to be honest (thats not to say I couldnt be swayed though, so keep it coming!). Though I am having thoughts about losing the 5 man Shade unit, this would give me the points for all the little bits Im after and maybe an extra man or two in the other Shade unit. Thoughts?

One final thing, what is this Shade Deathstar I've seen mentioned?

Cheers guys,
Chris
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Fri Feb 13, 2009 7:01 pm
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The shade deathstar comes in different versions but basically contains one large unit of shades, say 40+ with 4 characters in it minimizes it's weaknesses. Give it the ASF banner, 3 null talismans, ring of hotek and ItP and see them go!

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Fri Feb 13, 2009 7:52 pm
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Hey,

Is it really wrong that Im massively intrigued by this? Im sure im months behind the times! I have no intention of building this army, but certainly would like to see some examples.

So anyway Haplo, what did you think to the most recent list?

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Fri Feb 13, 2009 9:21 pm
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You've got 11 points to spare, give the 5 shades great weapons, or additional handweapons and a musician to the RXBmen.

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Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:34 pm
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This is looking good. The main concern will be keeping your knights and hydrae alive to do the damage. Shooting and magic will certainly soften things up, but you will need the knights and hydrae to get rid of units.

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Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:39 pm
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I think it looks fun to play and packs a lot of punch. As I have said earlier I'm not a huge fan of dark riders but they provide a core choice so I would drop their rxb and get more shades without extra weapons as they are your best shot and every rxb in the hands of a shade is almost worth 2 rxbs on dark riders.

Also I started out with GWs on shades because basically its AWESOME, we never had anything like that so of course it is interesting, but most times I find myself shooting a lot more than fighting so often the points are wasted.

About the deathstar, yes it is both interesting and deadly. I played a version at the last tournament I went to and it is fun to actually have a almost invincible unit for a change :twisted:

I used something like

2x 10 Rxb
5 DR
3x5 harpies
40 shades
10 BG with ring of hotek
hydra

Dreadlord with soulrender, pendant, armour of darkness(this guy can take a challenge from a HE stardragon and come out winning)
Master BSB with ASF banner(anything that survives the stand & shoot will be chopped up in combat)
Master with 3 null talismans
master with pearl of darkness and guiding eye(40 shades rerolling to hit is just sick:P)

All characters have GW so pack a huge punch if anything actually makes it into combat.

Weaknesses consist of first turn panic tests as the characters cannot deploy with the unit because of scouting. Also spells which do not "target" the unit will bypass ring of hotek and MR3. Multiple charges of knights will cause problems as anything that can survive and hit the shades will build up huge combat res. Also massed warmachine fire from cannons and stone throwers will deminish the unit and of course auto hit weapons like ratling guns and old salamanders are a threat. Last but not least wraiths in decent numbers just make a mess of the deathstar :D

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Fri Feb 13, 2009 11:10 pm
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Chris, forget the Shade Deathstar it is pants! I have seen it played a few times now and it doesn't work except in extreme circumstances.

If you have no objection I will add commentary to your list tomorrow.


Fri Feb 13, 2009 11:37 pm
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Hi Xizor.
We don't know each other but reading your "I'm back" thread and the replies, I'm certain to see you often in D.net these days.
Missing the last few monthes of D.net, you may not have perceived the coming of the D.R.A.I.C.H. thread.
It is stickied on top of the tactics forum. I collected there many threads about topics I've found interesting.
I suggest you had a look to the table of content at least.
There you'll see links to a coouple of shade deathstar threads... and more. DA doesn't like the deathstar because it is not competitive enough in tournaments, but other players have used it with great success, possibly in less competitive environment than DA's (or possibly they boast about their victories but remain silent about their losses?).

DE by now can be very competitive, but they need skill to master. Beginners still learn it the hard way. An experienced player as you will love them.


Back to topic.
All the comments recieved on your list are well in line with the general feeling about 7th ed DE.

Your Magic phase will be strong without excess.
Read the two magic tactica on top of tactics forum made by DD, they are excellent. You might find an interest about my "D.R.A.I.C.H. Best use of Power of Darkness" thread, as you must not be familiar with PoD... yet. Hyperling in the D.R.A.I.C.H., magic phase.


Shooting with MXB or DR MXB or shades?
The problem with DR MXB as well as shades is that they cost quite a lot for a rather small number of bolts.
In comparison, MXB cost much less, or can deliver a much bigger amount for the same price, depending on the view point.
All factors taken in account (mathhammering, soon to be posted in a thread), a kill made by MXB costs significantly less than the same kill made by shades or DR MXB.
If you were basing your army on magic and shooting, I would recommend you to take massively MXB and only a few DR and shades. But this is not what you have in mind.
Your army is obviously designed for a strong magic phase backed up with a medium shooting, quite a good melee and overall a very, very high mobility.
With that in mind, a single unit of MXB instead of more DR or shades will not change much your mobility (considering you can sacrifice it) and will add significantly to your shooting effectiveness.
Going further in that direction would progressively change the nature of your army, not something you want, do you?


Shades with GW or AHW or naked?
GW are outstanding on the charge against hard targets, however, their limited number of attacks is not enough to destroy mass units.
AHW are good only against soft targets and will loose against knights.
Naked shades should be used only against very soft targets in little numbers.
Knowing that you have COC and hydra, do you need one more can opener?
You decide who you want to cope with. If you really want to take care of heavy armoured foes, go for the GW shades, they rock.


COK are as good as you think.

You'll find soon that Hydras lack SCR. Their best asset is the incredible amount of opponent's hits they can soak. They loose combats by the SCR however.


With your army as detailed in your last post, your opponent will face a strong magic, a strong shooting and a strong melee for his hard armoured foes.

On the weak side, I'm not sure how well your army would behave against a horde army. Your shooting is accurate but not massive, your melee is hard hitting but not massive. Magic perhaps? Hydra breath and terror?

Hoping to reading your batreps soon.

_________________
Winds never stop blowing, Oceans are borderless. Get a ship and a crew, so the World will be ours! Today the World, tomorrow Nagg! {--|oBrotherhood of the Coast!o|--}


Sat Feb 14, 2009 9:56 am
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