Nooby advice - Got models...now what?

Coldishone · Post by **Coldishone** » Sat Feb 21, 2009 1:43 pm

Hi,

I was given the following for my birthday:

Battalion Box
5 Cold Ones
Sorceress on Cold One
Lokhir Fellheart

So what I need to know is how to best put this together for a force to start WH fantasy with (being a 40K player at the moment).

What's a good number of Cold Ones for a unit, should I make all ten? Or 6 and 4 for two chariots? Or is 10 a good number?
Should I make a corsair a musician and another a Standard Bearer?
I suppose the same question for the Warriors? Is a musician and/or standard bearer a must?
I presume make half the warriors XBowmen?

Now the big question, what should I get to make a good "learning army". Another mage? A few monsters? Which monsters? Harpies first?

Thank you for any advice, I have yet to buy the rulebook (must do that after I post this!!) and I know absolutely nothing about WHF, so any advice is good advice (as long as it is not "why the hell did your wife buy you dark elves and not those new lizardmen?").

Irtehdar · Post by **Irtehdar** » Sat Feb 21, 2009 2:47 pm

Id say 10 Harpies and 10 Dark Riders and your good to go for a ''learning army''
And another Sorceress would be good. The way magic works pretty much translates into this:
1 sorceress is just magic defence, 2 sorceresses are competitive and 3 is dominating

Actually the battalions for pretty much any army make up a good start for an army.

One small thing though. I would never field a Sorceress on a Cold One and have heard very few people say they would. That model is wicked cool its just not that practical in game terms. You can probably get by if you just make sure to tell your opponent that it ''counts as'' a dark steed.

For warriors you most often want a full command whereas you dont want command models for crossbowmen.
For your knights Id say make 7 knights. I have rarely seen knight regiments bigger than that.
The remaining 3 knights you can use as 2 cold ones for a chariot and the final one you can convert into a master/dreadlord.

For general advice Id say look around at the stickies especially in the tactics forum and get out there and get beaten to a pulp by some veterans.

EDIT: oh and welcome to d.net btw

Post by **Kinslayer** » Sat Feb 21, 2009 3:29 pm

Lose the sorceress on Cold One - It's better off on ebay. You'll want her on foot, dark steed or dark pegasus to begin with. I would make those knights you have into 2 units of 5 knights without command groups apart from musicians. Get 10 dark riders also with musicians in each group.

If you have 26 warriors this can make 2 units of 10/12 crossbowmen and leave spares to use elsewhere. Lokhir is pretty good so assemble the corsairs with full command and use him in that unit. You have the rulebook &/or army book I take it?

Post by **Layne** » Sat Feb 21, 2009 3:40 pm

No, don't sell her - put a pointy end on that staff, presto, Master [Mistress] on Cold One, with lance, possibly Deathpiercer or Caledor's Bane.

Cal'mihe · Post by **Cal'mihe** » Sat Feb 21, 2009 3:45 pm

I would suggest making all 10 cold one knights, with an eye towards using two units of 5. This gives tactical flexibility and allows for some redundancy in case of stupidity or in case one unit gets shot to pieces.
One big unit means that people will try to avoid it or focus their destructive tendencies on it until it is no longer an effective fighting element.

Otherwise I'm with Irtehdar, definitly command models on the spearmen, and I would strongly recommend on the corsairs as well, since you have 20 of them and will probably be using them as your main infantry block.
Or if you want, you can make two command groups of corsairs, allowing you to field two small combat units of 10 with command in each.
I would personally recommend one command group out of the 20 corsairs, allowing you to field either one main block of 20 or 2 blocks of 10 each, one with command.

For heroes, the Sorcress on Cold one can either be used as a Dreadlady/Master, which would fit very nicely in the cold one knights, and the lokhir model can be used as lokhir himself, or as a generic Master. Either way being well suited to running around togther with the main corsair block.

Every player has his or her own distinctive balance of offensive/defensive play, so before you jump at more purchases, I'd recommed getting those units assembled and then seeing what takes your fancy.

For tactics, the overall concept that you need to start thinking about is that WHF places its "threat" later than W40k, and plays more reactionary than the general 40k game.

Basically, in 40k each unit has generally a quite long area of theat. The vast majority of units have guns with ranges around the 12"-24" mark with heavier weapons having correspondingly bigger areas that they can threaten. This means that a unit can be an effective fighting force even though it is placed far away from the center of fighting.

Not so in WHF, where the majority of the battle is decided in melee, and units are quite restricted in whom they can threaten, mainly due to the movement, line of sight and charge rules.

This also leads to the concept of hammer/anvil units and combos, which are not really relevant to W40k (except in a few cases). This concept centers around the fact that units are generally more deadly on the charge than they are on the receiving of it, and the difference between Active Combat Resolution (ACR) and Static Combat Resolution (SCR).

A unit with many models in a tight formation has a very high Static Combat Resolution, with banner, outnumbering of their enemies, rank bonus, the normal SCR for a ranked infantry unit of 20 models is 5. This means that in order to overcome this flat and static bonus, an opposing unit would have to cause 5 casualties while suffering none in return in order to even force the combat to a draw.
Generally, units which have high SCR also have low ACR and vice versa. Units (such as the cold one knights) which are very very deadly on the offense and can easily wipe out 4-5-6 enemies on the charge, come at a high points price and so are difficult to field in large enough numbers to gain a high SCR.

This leads to the concept of hammer/anvil units.

You have ACR focused units (your cold one knights) which are capable of generating high numbers of casualties.
And you have big blocks of cheap infantry (such as your spearmen or corsairs) which have a high SCR and needs to be devestated in combat in order to lose.

If you are capable of tactically tieing these two things togther, bringing both your ACR unit AND your SCR unit into the same combat, you have successfully stacked the odds in your favor very very highly.
One unit is the anvil (SCR) the other is the hammer (ACR)

Lastly, realise that the number of dice being rolled in WFB is overall less than in 40k :p
It is not uncommon for units of 20 models each to only have 5-6 attacks to direct at each other.

Post by **Kinslayer** » Sat Feb 21, 2009 3:50 pm

Since you do not have the rulebook (just noticed it in that last sentence) you may be wondering why I, and others, have told you not to use the Sorceress on Cold One as that. Cold Ones suffer from stupidity, meaning on a failed leadership each turn they can not do anything and neither can their riders. For the sorceress this is bad, because she has lower leadership and can not cast spells if her Cold One turns stupid. Put her on a horse, and she can move around more and always cast.

A Cold One is a fearsome beast in combat though, which is the ideal place to have your masters and dreadlords, and not the most common place to find a sorceress (who hang back casting spells)... Hope that helps.

Rebaillion · Post by **Rebaillion** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 1:16 am

from what's been said here it sounds like I made a mistake with my own COK's... I wonder if I can peel those command sets off the models with a saw blade.

Geoguswrek · Post by **Geoguswrek** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 2:17 am

Rebaillion wrote:from what's been said here it sounds like I made a mistake with my own COK's... I wonder if I can peel those command sets off the models with a saw blade.

oh no, don't worry, 6 CoK with full command is good too (you use the ring of hotek, and the cold blooded banner/banner of hag graef/ap banner)

Post by **Calisson** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 11:04 am

Look inside the D.R.A.I.C.H. - top of tactics forum - there is an entry for beginnersm and some hyperlinks to threads about using the battalion box.
The advice will be valid for you as well.
Welcome in D.net!

Orsha · Post by **Orsha** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 2:49 pm

Hmmm awkward.
I did not realize the warriors could be built differently as “This box contains 53 multi-part plastic models, including: 12 Dark Elf Warriors with spear and shield, 16 Dark Elf Warriors with repeater crossbow, 20 Corsairs and 5 Cold One Knights.”
But I do not own a battalion box.
Never the less I will assume GW are correct (for a change, kidding) for the minute.
I view spears as been wholly useless except as dagger meat but 12 will quickly panic so you would need to buy another 16 warriors for 20 RxBs and 24 spears then drop a LvL 2 Sorceress in the spears and give her Sacrificial Dagger and Dispel Scroll or perhaps better use would come from the tome of furion for +1 spell as she will be pulling a lot of casting dice
Don’t play Fellhart if you are in it for competitive play as he is squishy even with 4+ regenerate.
Assuming 1000 pts is the goal here you can probably run with no sorceress at all in which case turn all warriors into RxBs or buy 16 more and run 30 Rxbs in three units all with shields

Master, coldone, heavy armor, lance, sea dragon cloak, pendant of khaeleth, enchanted shield.
That’s a 0+ armor save with a ward save of 4 plus minimum and often 3 or 2 plus.
5 Coldones, musician, champ with ring of hotek so all doubles targeting to cast or casting within 12 miscast.
5 Coldones, musician
3*10 RxB, shields, musician
1*14 corsairs, champion, musician

I would not normally field a corsair champion but this way you can only slightly dodgely use the Fellhart model.
Don’t be shy about moving the RxBs around and ranking up for supporting charges or light assault work as there 4+ save in combat combined with WS4 hatred attacks mean they are still useful combat troops.
Flee a lot as you are cavalry heavy and will be able to flank/rear charge units you pull out of position.
Your master (sorceress model) is very tough for a 1000 point general and should easily slay even a vampire… eventually. He/she could even hold up a dragon for a whole game.
60 RxB shots pull down 3 bretonnian knights a turn at long range or 15 t3 6+ models at short range. These are sweet units.

Phierlihy · Post by **Phierlihy** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 3:55 pm

Do not field units of Cold One Knights with a champion with less than 6 models. The champion, which usually carries something important like the Ring of Hotek or a Null Shard, does not get a Look Out Sir! unless there are 5 rank and file models in his unit. When shooting hits are randomized or you are getting canon-sniped, you want to be able to take that roll!

Orsha · Post by **Orsha** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 3:23 am

phierlihy. I had to check the rule book to be sure but under champions it does say they count as rank and file and so should mean that 4 models plus champion counts as a unit of 5 rank and file models and thus he becomes eligible for the look out sir role?

Phierlihy · Post by **Phierlihy** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 3:19 pm

Check pg 81. Champions count as characters for the purpose of Look out, Sir! rolls. And since characters do not count as rank and file for model count for giving another character a Look out, Sir! roll, you need a fifth rank and file model.

Orsha · Post by **Orsha** » Fri Mar 06, 2009 4:37 am

Page 81,

“although they normally have slightly better characteristics than normal troopers, champions are NOT CHARACTERS but members of the regiment…”

“Even though they are RANK and FILE models rather than characters they are subject to the following rules that govern characters…”

“Champions are treated as CHARACTERS when their unit is hit by ranged attacks. (e.g. they benefit from the look out sir roll etc.)”

So now the question is do they count as both or switch from one to the other under ranged assault.

Page 75,

“If a character is part of a unit that consists of five or more RANK and FILE models… roll a d6…”

Does this not simply mean that they are rank and file models that can be targeted by cannons and roll for look out sir? Or does it specifically override there rank and fileness altogether during the shooting phase?

Phierlihy · Post by **Phierlihy** » Fri Mar 06, 2009 5:26 am

Somewhere else in the book the champion is also seperated out from normal rank and file. I don't have my book in front of me but the net result is, if you've got a Champion on your unit, makes sure he brings five other friends along with him. Incidentally that means my Cold One Knights run six wide plus my army BSB for a total of seven models wide.

Orsha · Post by **Orsha** » Fri Mar 06, 2009 6:29 am

I see. Well that makes the problem a little more involved. Perhaps use the sorceress model as a proxy 6th coldone until you can pick your points up to about 2000 where you can drop the ring and use scrolls and sorcerers to protect them. You will have to run just 12 corsairs and drop a musician from one of the coldone units but it will still represent a fierce 1000 point list.