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Tactics Question of the Week #2 3/15/09 
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Rumour Lord of Doom
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Link to Question #1 http://www.druchii.net/viewtopic.php?t=60560

Alright guys, the time has come once again. This comes from a battle of Bretonnians and Daemons. Following the picture will be the unit sizes and special rules pertaining to all the units and/or heroes.

The scenario comes from Bretonnian turn 3. Daemons went first. The Bloodthirster (unit I) and the flesh hounds (Unit J) are facing towards the south east corner of the map. The problem for you to solve is what is the best option for this turn. Do you take a chance on the Bloodthirster that will no doubt rampage your lines in the coming turns? Or do you ignore it and try and break the center. Or perhaps you can do both.

Image

Alright, so for the descriptions. Lets start with Armywides.

Bretonnians- All Units (excluding peasants) have a 6+ ward save against anything strength <5 and a 5+ ward save against anything with strength 5 or greater. The peasants will cause panic in no one. Purebreed Horses make barding not take away movement.

Daemons: All cause fear. Lose models in combat equal to amount break test was failed by and ward saves are not applicable to these wounds. All have 5+ ward save. Leftmost unit of Flesh Hounds has Hatred due to the Heralds accompaniment

For the units I am going to utilize the GW site while explaining any ambiguities.

(D Knights of the Realm with Lord)
(E Knights of the Realm with Damsel (Scroll caddy))
(C Knights Errant)
Knights of the Realm and Knights Errant. - http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catal ... prod780923

(A) Pegasus Knights - http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catal ... GameStyle=

(B) Mounted Yeomen - http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catal ... GameStyle=

Lords stats: He has magic items to give him Killing blow against large targets AND weapon skill 10. http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catal ... GameStyle=

Damsel stats: Mounted with 2 dispel scrolls http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catal ... GameStyle=

______________________________________________________________

Daemons

(F)(J) Flesh hounds http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catal ... GameStyle=
with Herald mounted on Juggernaut with no added items http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catal ... GameStyle=


(G) Unit of 10 horrors http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catal ... GameStyle=
Horrors can cast spells for the sake if simplicity, I'm not gonna bother.

(H) Unit of 9 horrors. Stats as above.

(I) Bloodthirster. Comes with Dark Insanity (2d6+2 attacks in combat)

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catal ... GameStyle=


______________________________________________________________
As for the measurements, this is what your getting from me.

The duke is in range of the thirster but not the fleshhounds. The dukes unit would not have been able to charge the Bloodthirster as they wouldnt have enough movement to complete the wheel. The lance on the right is in range of the fleshounds and the thirster. They are in the flank arc of the thirster.

_________________________________________________________________

So, what do you think you would do? Is the bloodthirster worth the risk? Do you trust your lords chances with 4 attacks at KB on the thirster?

And more importantly, do you like this format better than the last? I know it requires a lot of open windows but at the same time was quite easy for me to setup. Any other questions will be promptly answered.

Thanks for playing everyone,
-Rex

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Last edited by Azure on Mon Mar 16, 2009 5:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.



Sun Mar 15, 2009 11:48 pm
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Just for information: the chance that KB would work on the bloodthirster is 20.4% (assuming 4 attacks hitting on 4s). This already accounts for the protection given by ward save against KB.

Also a question: do any of the knights have magical banners? And one thing I don't remember - what strength do the atacks of Dark Insanity have? BT's base strength?


Mon Mar 16, 2009 7:38 am
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Ok, here goes...

The odds are terrible of a KB, but if I calculate correctly the BT needs 4s to hit and 2s to wound a 4+ save (1+ modified by BT str6) and 5+ ward the odds that my lord dies are just under 13%. However I need to ensure that I am not outnumbered = autobreak when I suffer a wound. Therefore I would also charge in my right most unit of knights and challenge with the champ this round, then my lord next and the following. Which are great odds of tying up the BT in his next movement phase, meaning he'll have turn 5 to set up a charge (and only turn 6 to actually charge).

On the right flank, I have a 72% chance of being able to charge the FHs with my Pegs and a 52% chance of killing 1. There is therefore a good chance that I win combat, next turn I will get annihilated though. When I lose though any pursuit should mean that the centre is cleared revealing the horrors.

If I fail to charge, then I want my Yeomen positioned to flee away from the centre, they will fire at the Horrors this turn.

My two other Knights units will position themselves to charge the horrors next turn.

@Azure, I think the format is much better, but as a player not familiar with either Brets or DoC it took a while to get to grips with the position (which I acknowledge I have probably still failed to do :().
Dark Elves vs X would definitely be better going forward.

@Lakissov, I hope I have gotten my calcs correct. Happy to send you the detail if you want it.

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Last edited by 22over7 on Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Mon Mar 16, 2009 12:07 pm
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@ Azure,
I thought you would start a new thread, the first line of it being a link to the previous "Tactics Question of the Week".

In that way, there would be a series of "Tactics Question of the Week" threads. The first post of each thread would be the question, followed by the answers, and one of the last post would be the "solution".

For further references, the first line of the first thread would hyperlink to the previous "Tactics Question of the Week", allowing a newcomer to easily access to the previous accumulation of knowledge.


Otherwise, your effort in providing "click and read" references for readers as ignorant and lazy as me is greatly appreciated! :D Thanks.

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Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:50 pm
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E charge J on the flank. D charge the thirster on the flank. You should win both combats and hopefully do some wounds due to cr (bt should fall in two turns, without doing calculations so it may be wrong). B reforms in front of the other unit of flesh hounds, denying the charge on D if they end in sight (I can't be sure with this image). A fly on the back, threatening G, H and J (supposedly charging J to kill them off the next turn). C move on the left flank.

Edit: I didn't take in account the flank charge of the horrors on D. I guess that my plan has got a significant weakness...


Mon Mar 16, 2009 2:00 pm
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My plan would be to charge the lord and the right-most lance into the BT. On lords Ld 9, the chance to not fail the terror test is 83.3%, so the chance to make the combo-charge is 69.4%. The worst case scenario is that the lord doesn't fail the test while the lance does. The probabilty of this is 13.8%, and there is nothing one can do about it. The BT will certainly challenge, and then I accept with the lord. If the BT doesn't challenge, then he gets the attacks not only from the lord but also from 7 knights (8 S5 attacks with the champion). In the evening, I'll post the probabilities for different ACR outcomes of this combat.

I would also move the middle and left lance closer to the horrors, while screening them against the charge of hounds with herald with pegasus knights. I'd also move the fast cavalry into a position where the hounds would get EitW (enemy in the way) on them when chasing the pegasi, and then flee from the EitW charge, forcing the hounds to turn even further away from the combat and making sure that if the hounds catch anyone, then it's cheap fast cavalry and not pegasus knights.

The lances in the middle (middle lance and left lance) should move in such a way as to see both horror units, and in such a way as to block a countercharge on the Lord for the right horror unit (so that they wouldn't be able to align into contact with the lord, hitting the KoTR lance instead).

I'd hope to either kill the BT with the lord or crumble him with static CR (flank, outnumber, banner, rank = +4; +5 if having warbanner); if I'm lucky, I'd get to overrun into the hounds. Also, I'd get the hounds with the herald out of action, and hope to survive the magic phase with the errants, and then charge one horror unit with both lances (one lance will not be enough, I'm afraid).

If the charge on the BT gets stuck, there is still some hope to crumble him with SCR, having the challenge limit the impact of the BT's attacks. However, if it takes longer than two rounds to crumble the BT, the KoTR lance would face a charge from the hounds, which is sad but not very sad, seeing as they have a 4+/5+ save against hounds, and they have starting CR of +3 (rank, banner, outnumber).
The critical thing here is actually to keep the hounds with herald occupied with redirectors for long enough not be able to affect the battle.


Mon Mar 16, 2009 3:06 pm
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Hey!
Yeah, prefer Dark Elf fights too. Furthermore, I liked the first case more. But lets see...
Start with A charge F into the flank. I'd hope that they make the 2 wounds, so that no1 hits back, that would make them win, so that next turn the hero still cant move over to that flank and they block the hounds out a bit. Still B should stay about the same place, as it is vital that this unit of Hounds is bound so they cant interfere anywhere.
Than charge H with C. I woudnt want even a unit of Horrors in my flank, cause it takes ranks and gets +1 for flank, eventough I might kill 1 or 2.
D charge I into the flank. In my opinion it is likely that the Knights+Lord win the CC, even causing the Thirster some wounds. However, it should take them one more turn to kill him, during which they loose couple of men.
E charge J into the flank. Should be a safe and clean attack. Most likely wont get through in one turn, but should do in the next. Furthermore if D kills the Thirster in first turn, than they overrun into the flank too, which would kill those guys.


Mon Mar 16, 2009 4:05 pm
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22hover7 corrected me, so I cancel all of the previous answer just not to create confusion. I'll add a reply after.

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Last edited by Master of arneim on Mon Mar 16, 2009 4:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.



Mon Mar 16, 2009 4:08 pm
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@Bomli: In their movement phase the DoC player can move the herald to a fighting position. DoC losing combat just means they can't rotate the whole unit to face the Pegs.

@Master of Arneim: the problem stated that the "duke's unit" which I take to be unit D, can't reach the BT due to wheeling. So if you do decide to charge the BT with the Lord, you have to charge the other unit (E) otherwise your heroic lord (with a 87% chance of living after attacks from the BT) would be autobroken as he is outnumbered by a fear causer :(.

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Mon Mar 16, 2009 4:17 pm
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Wops, I missed that point. So neither the C unit will be in range of the horrors. That's pretty difficult to solve.
If you go with the "duke" alone with the other unit he will be badly injured (if not dead) in the challenge, but the heat must be launched to defend the "supporting" unit at this point. It's a risky choiche but it would stop the BT for a couple of turns.

But, now that you have enlighted me, it's difficult to say how many inches are there between the other units: in example it seems to be a range of 20" between the khorne herald and the errant knights...

Even then, I'd position in a line the yeomen, in front of the herald unit, then I accept the charge, forcing him to overrun into the middle, ready to countercharge with realm and errants.

I'd charge with the pegasus the unit of horrors in the middle, and it should be able to destroy them.

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Mon Mar 16, 2009 4:54 pm
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No magical banner in these fights.

Calisson: Hmm, I hadn't even thought of that though I do like the concept. I'll just split this topic to do that.

-Rex

p.s. Keep em coming boys, I'll give my opinions soon. Also, comments and suggestions always welcome.

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Mon Mar 16, 2009 5:00 pm
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All right, here are the probabilities for the lance and Duke into BT's flank (assuming that the Duke is in challenge with BT, and the Duke's side has +4 SCR and musician, hence turning a draw into a win by 1):
kill the BT: 20.4%
win by 5: 2.95%
win by 4: 13.69%
win by 3: 24.37%
win by 2: 20.84%
win by 1: 15.96%
lose: 1.75%
And the probability for the Bloodthirster to die in one round is 26.4% (to die outright or to die from crumbling). However, the probability for the lord to survive the first round of combat is 76.9%, which means that the lance will be able to keep the BT in challenge for three rounds of combat, and each of these rounds the probability for the BT to pop from crumbling will be increasing with the wounds that he had already taken from crumbling in previous rounds. So, I'd say that this is a reasonable gamble.


Mon Mar 16, 2009 8:38 pm
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To the Demon player, losing that Bloodthirster would be such a devestating blow, I'd charge it with the Lord for sure! If for no other reason, that way you're tying up the Bloodthirster as opposed to him eating all your other units.

The Knights of the Realm with the Damsel I'd put into the flank of the Hounds on the right. The Pegasus Knights, Mounted Yeoman, and Knights Errant I'd throw into the right-most block of Hounds because in the over-run (assuming I have one) will put me into that unit of ten Horrors right behind them with at least two of those units.


Mon Mar 16, 2009 9:22 pm
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@ Azure, thanks for the new thread. Easier to go back & forth to the graphics.
I don't know what magic you used to achieve the resulting transfert. Awesome.


Now the tactics problem.
I'm tempted to charge the Bloodthirster with both the duke and the lance on the right, in the flank arc of the thirster.
The thirster will challenge, wasting the lance's attacks, but still allowing a +4 SCR.
Only now I see Lakissov's stats and find out it is a good thing.

If I do not overrun in "J", then "H" will be able to join the combat next turn, but they would deal no damage to the duke (in challenge) nor bring any SCR.

For the rest,
- "A" charge "G",
- "D" positions and gets ready to charge "H",
- "B" positions in front of "F", at 1", so that "F" cannot move except charging them. "B" can set in a congo ine in order to minimize the damage (only 3 models will hit them), hoping for a tie. Or they can flee if charged, they may be overrun but "F" will move far away.
- "C" turns 90° right and gets ready to charge "J" when "J" moves forwards to threaten "E"s flank.

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Mon Mar 16, 2009 11:17 pm
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Ok, Charges:
The lord is tooled up to take on big monsters, so charge him in the BT. As you might not inflict enough wounds to prevent autobreaking for the lord, throw the damselknights in as well. This gives you the outnumber, flank, rank and banner, meaning that the BT is at -4 already. As he will probably not inflict more than 4 wounds on the lord, he will suffer this turn.

The pegasus knights should charge the horrors, as they have too little chance to kill the fleshhounds. Better leave the yeomen in front and flank charge with the knights in the next turn.

Use the Duke's knights to set up a charge vs the other flesh hounds in the next turn by turning them to face the hounds. The knights can handle the hounds.
After this, you will only have one unit horrors left to kill.

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Tue Mar 17, 2009 6:31 pm
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Humm.. I'm not against the idea of this kind of topic but since it's in "Druchii tactics" wouldn't it be better if this kind of stuff would be about Druchii?

This one would be more in the General one in my opinion...

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Wed Mar 18, 2009 12:18 pm
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Well, nice topic. :)

I would try to take the countercharges away.
The Pegasus Knights attack G (Horrors) in the flank. Maybe they get stuck, but they will win the fight on long term.
Mounted Yeomen (B) will be sacrified for redirecting the Fleshhounds (F) and the Herold to allow the Knights Errant (C) a countercharge in the flank. They will do more damage than the Pegasi and have a scr what should help to bring the Fleshhounds down in the next rounds.
Knights of the Realm with Damsel (E) should attack the other unit of Horrors (H) to avoid the countercharge on the Lords unit of Knights (D) of the Realm.
The Lords unit should do what it is build for: Attacking the BT!
As Lakissov pointet out, they have a good chance to kill it in at least three rounds. This is the time the Fleshhounds need to get arc of sight for a countercharge.

I did not read all the other posts, so that my solution has maybe already been posted.

Greetings,
Vagi

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Wed Mar 18, 2009 12:43 pm
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@Vagi
That would be a good plan to charge the right horrors, but the problem is that most likely the damsel's lance won't reach them. Additionally, as Azure told, the lord's lance won't reach the BT due to wheeling - so you can only charge the lord out of his lance (which would be suicide unless the damsel's lance also supports his charge).


Wed Mar 18, 2009 3:01 pm
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Uuhmm.. well. I must have overread it. :roll:
Then I would suggest, that the lord attacks the BT with help of the Knights of the Realm with Damsel (E). He would accept a challenge anyway, so it is irrelevant where the scr comes from.
His own unit of Knights of the Realm moves forward to interception the countercharge of the Horrors (H).

How does this sound to you? ;)

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Wed Mar 18, 2009 5:20 pm
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Well, you have to put the Lord and KotR into the BT, obviously. You're not going to get any other chances of killing or holding it up.

I'd then stick the pegs into horror unit H to prevent the inevitable flank charge next turn.

If the Errants fail their impetuous test they go into the hounds and hope to get lucky. TheMy would then go behind looking to draw the hounds away from the KotR unit in the centre, which would be looking at repositioning for a charge (preferably flank) next turn.

If the Errants pass the test though the MY would stay pretty much where they are so they can draw the houndsaway from both knight units which would be positoning so as they can both charge the hounds next turn whether they charge the MY or not.

At this moment in time it is fine to ignore the leftmost horrors and rightmost hounds since they need a turn to get into a threatening position, giving you 3 rounds of combat before which will be much more important. Ideally the pegs will make light work of thehorror unit and then be able to help hold up the hounds on the right but with daemons that isn't a sure fire thing.

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Wed Mar 18, 2009 6:56 pm
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Crawd wrote:
Humm.. I'm not against the idea of this kind of topic but since it's in "Druchii tactics" wouldn't it be better if this kind of stuff would be about Druchii?

This one would be more in the General one in my opinion...


Well, since it is a tactical discussion that pertains to DE (as the previous topic shows as well as providing tactical exercises that will hopefully advance the druchii tactical awareness of not only the game but also of the different armies) I've decided it will stay. Following exercises will be more based on the Druchii.

Also, Ant essentially thinks the same thing I would haha. When outnumbered units wise it is most important to focus on the ones that have potential to hurt you then and now. Hounds off on their own are no threat to anyone. Hounds looking at charging your knights, now thats muy importante!

-Rex

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Wed Mar 18, 2009 9:04 pm
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Hm, I was also initially thinking of screening the jugger herald against a charge out of his hounds units, but later decided that it's unnecessary. He would need to inflict 4 casualties on any of the lances to avoid losing, so most likely wouldn't make the charge (as the chance inflict 4+ casualties, even with hatred and KB on both the rider and the mount, isn't big - just 5.7%). To make sure that he doesn't solo-charge, one should set up both lances in such a way as to be able to countercharge next turn if the herald charges out.

As for the Pegasus knights charging the left horrors, it actually seems like a viable idea. They start at -1 SCR (-rank-ournumber+flank), but ehy do have some killing potential,a nd the horrors only have 5+ ward, not 4+. Besides, tying the horrors up renders them useless, as they only have one magic missile in the magic phase, and hence makes it more likely for the knights errant and KotR to go through the magic phase totally unhindered.

---

On the topic of problems being about druchii or not: I guess, the majority of problems should be druchii-related, in order to attract more attention here and get more people involved in proposing their ideas. Still, I personally see no problem in looking at problems (pun intended) with other armies. After all, different armies play differently, and looking at the table from their perspective can be a good thing for improving one's skills in tactics.

---

Also, I think that I have a rather interesting problem to propose if not for the next week then for the week after it (that one is all about the manoeuvres of support units). I would be grateful if Azure PMs me the link to the wonderful site which he uses to make the pictures, so that I could make a chart for that problem...


Wed Mar 18, 2009 9:31 pm
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Lakissov: I havent finished my question for next week (Sunday) so if you are willing to toss one out here you are more than welcome. I'll hit you with that URL and explain it a bit.

-Rex

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Wed Mar 18, 2009 10:54 pm
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Here's my take on the situation

I would have the lord and Unit E (damsel lance) charge the thirster. The lord challenges, and has a small, but decent, chance of surviving the round. If he gets killing blow, it will have been worth the risk.
Revised: Now the Lord, Damsel lance, and pegasus knights charge the thirster. I'm assuming the p.knights are in the rear arc.

Unit A (pegs) will charge unit F(khornedogs with herald). Being able to take out a strong combat hero without touching him is always good.
This doesn't happen

Unit C(errant) will charge Unit H(9 heralds). They don't have two ranks, so killing them shouldn't be too tough.
This stays the same. I make sure to move their charge before the pegasus knights

Unit B(yeomen) will attempt to move in the direction Unit F(khorndogs with herald) will hopefully be fleeing. They will try to strip a rank from Unit G(10 horrors) with their shooting.
This unit now moves to accept and redirect a charge from the khornedogs with the herald. They will still try to take a rank of those horrors with shooting.

Unit D(lordless lance) will position themselves to deal with Unit J(khornedogs without herald), assuming they will flank and destroy Unit E(damsel lance).
These guys will now be trying to get a flank charge on the redirected unit of khornedogs with the herald next turn.

*edit Just remembered that demons don't flee.
I'll have to rethink this whole thing


Thu Mar 19, 2009 2:22 am
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I'm only curious what that thing you're using for making the maps is? I could use that for battle reports :P

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8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16


Thu Mar 19, 2009 3:59 am
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