Intersite battle, any interest?

How to beat those cowardly High Elves?

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The golden arrow
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Intersite battle, any interest?

Post by The golden arrow »

With the great interest shown in the "tactic questions od the week" I've come up with a new idea that develops along those lines. Instead of a single tactical question you as a forum are going to do a whole battle against asrai.org, online. You come up with all the strategies and hopefully you can show them who truly are the best generals. The format is mostly burrowed from a battle Lord Firmshaft did over at bugmans brewery a while ago.


Rules

Each turn you must come up with a plan that includes all phases including movement, magic, shooting and combat. All members can join in if they want to and post their tactical ideas, the more the merrier.

If you wish to post ideas please do it in bullet points so its quick to read ie

- move unit A up
- shoot enemy unit B with unit D
- wheel unit C to face enemy unit E

This will also make it quick for other to give their points over if they disagree.

It would be great if we could have some kind of "team captain" that makes the decision if there are two conflicting views at the end of the week, otherwise I just have to pick the one I find most "popular".

I will coordinate the game on both forums, make all dice rolls and update the map. Also if situations arise that you have not predicted (spells etc) I will step in and do what I think is best in the situation.

It will be most fun if you do not watch the thread over at asrai.org. Of course I can't stop you, but I hope you're grown up enough to play a game without trying to spy on the other side's tactics.

The deadline will always be sunday 24.00 gmt. Then I will take a day or two to update the maps and make dice rolls etc. so you will have almost a week for each turn. Each new turn will be a new post and I'll try to write a small "report" after each turn.

If you (and asrai.org) like the idea I will post up a thread with army lists (I will make those, a wood elf and a dark elf one :ninja: and they will hopefully be balanced without any powergaming) in the weekend. Deployment will be done by using "hidden" deployment, ie deploying all your army at the same time and then you get to see the enemy's deployment. I will choose sides. Next week you also have to tell me if you want to go first or second (if you win the die roll that is) and where you want to deploy any scouts. You can write this depending on the enemy's deployment, like:

If enemy unit A is placed at spot B our scouts want to be at spot C etc...



So, what do you guys think? Are you interested and think it could work? If you have any questions or have spotted something I have missed please post it.
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Post by Megazephyr »

im in
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Post by Slortor »

Im in - will ahppily play captain too unless someone with more experience decides they want to be in charge.
Name: Khalia D'Vaarko (meaning: Khalia, property of Vaarko)
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Post by Azure »

Most definitely in and willing to take captain if need be now that my schedule has opened up significantly.

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Post by Lakissov »

This sounds interesting. I would participate. I would propose Dyvim Tvar as the captain of Druchii.net team, if he happens to be willing to participate and take this role.
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Post by Cal'mihe »

Sounds neat! I'd like to participate too if possible.

One question though, how would distance eyeballing work ?, will the map have precise measurements so that we can always figure out if a charge can reach or not, or will there be some sort of fudge factor in the map drawings ?
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Post by The golden arrow »

Well, I will use a graphic program to measure distances so I can get it exact. You will only have the map though, so will have to estimate things.

I just wanted to say that on asrai (always the democratic little hippies) they want to have a team that makes the final desitions. You could do it like that too if you want to, as long as I get the moves in time.
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Post by Azure »

The Golden Arrow: I propose you use the same site we are using for the Tactics Questions. Ill hit you with a PM. Your measurements will most likely be a bit less exact but I've found it is probably the easiest way to do these kind of things.

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Post by Calisson »

Great follow-on after the "Tactics Question of the Week"!

In order to allow newbii generals to follow what's going on and make the best of the teachings, a similar help as in the "Tactics Question of the Week" will be welcome (i.e. a brief summary of the capabilities of opposing units).

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Post by The golden arrow »

Yes, I'll try to add a small summary of each units abilities. If someone of you who knows wood elves well could add a summary of possible magic item combos that would be great since my ideas will be "colored" with my knowledge of the army.

I have a pretty good routine for playing online Azure, but thanks anyway.
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Post by Cathel »

I'll like to participate, too.
can you elaborate a bit on the proccedings?
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Post by The golden arrow »

OK, first i'll post the two army lists (yours open and the other closed here and the reversed on asrai) and post the battle map and which side is yours.

Then you decide how to deploy your army (the whole army at the same time) and which magic lores you want (I'll roll magic spells as soon as your decided, so it would be nice if you could do it before the weekend so you can choose spells as well). You must also decide if you want to go first or second. The deadline for all this is next sunday.

After both forum's deployment is in I'll update the map and roll to see who starts. Then you will have until next sunday to to agree on what to do with your moves, magic, shooting and eventual combat phases. You will not actually move any unit or roll any dice, just post what you would do (like in the tactic question of the week).

Then I'll update the map and move all units and when all that's done it's asrai's turn for a week. Then you alternate until all 6 turns are done and we have a winner.
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Post by The golden arrow »

You have until next weekend to sort things out, but since I think we've had sufficient interest in this so I'll post the map and army list. You have a week to decide on your deployment and any other extras. The army lists are not super hard and they are not made to fight each other, but that ain't the purpose. The purpose is rather to have a tactical discussion on warhammer and play with some different units and heroes.


Here's the map. The grey boulders are impossible terrain and block line of sight, the grey rubble is difficult terrain, but does not block los. The green brown things are wood and the brown thing in the middle is a hill (both block los (to everything)).

You have the top side.

Image

Here's your army list (2250 points):
Characters:
Dreadlord, sea dragon cloak, executioner's axe, blood armour 241 pts
Sorceress, lvl 2, dispel scroll 160 pts
Sorceress, lvl 2, tome of furion, dispel scroll 175 pts

Core Units:
Warriors 25, spear, shield, full command 190 pts
Darkriders 5, spear, rxb, musician 117 pts
Darkriders 5, spear, rxb, musician 117 pts
Crissbowmen 15, shields, musician 170 pts
Harpies 5 55 pts
Harpies 5 55 pts
Assasin, extra hand weapon, rune of khaine, cloak of Twilight 141 pts

Special Units:
Cold one chariot 100 pts
Shades 6, great weapons 108 pts
Black Guards 12, full command, asf banner, soulrender 241 pts
Witch Elves 13, full command, banner of murder, manbane 205 pts

Rare Units:
Hydra 175 pts

Total: 2250 pts


------------------------------


Wood Elf list (without hidden things, if you are familiar with the wood elf list please add common magic items, I don't want to do it since it will be affected by the items I have taken in one way or the other):

Characters:
Highborn, alter kindred, shield, light armour
Standard elf lord with M9, I9 and 5 attacks. He can be made pretty killy or pretty good at shooting stuff.

Spellsinger, Spell: Fury of the forest (5+, 18", no los restriction, d6 S4 hits, S5 if in a wood)
You all know what a lvl 1 wizard can do, she is also the general since no other characters can be.

Noble, alter kindred, shield, gw, light armour
Hero with M9 and 4 S6 attacks. Lots of mobile hitting power.

Noble, bsb, eagle, light armour
Another fast character. this time a bsb on a flying eagle. He is limited in his item choises so he probably has some magical stuff.

Core Units:
Glade Guards 10
Glade Guards 10
Archers with longbows, BS 4 and S4 on short range. No wood elf units get penalties for moving and shooting

Dryads 8
Dryads 8
Dryads 8
Tough skirmishers with T4 and 5+ ward save against non magical attacks. They are also immune to psychology and are quite killy with 2 WS4 S4 attacks.

Special Units:
Warhawk Riders 4, spears, longbows
Flying unit with longbows and 2 S4 attacks on the charge. They have 2 wounds each and a 6+ save. When they charge they may choose to hit and run which means that they flee and you can't pursue, oh and they rally automatically.

Wardancers 8
Wardancers 7
Very offensive skirmishers with Ws6, and weapons that gives an extra attack and +1 strength on the charge (up to S4). They can also dance one dance each turn to make them more effective. The dances give either +1 attack, killing blow, 4+ ward save or always strike first (but loose one attack). They also have MR 1 and 6+ ward save and are immune to psychology.

Wild Riders of Kurnous 6, spears, light armour, banner, musician
A fast cav unit with Ws 5 and S4 that cause fear on the charge. On the turn they do not charge they (and their horses) get +1 attack. They have 5+ armour save, 5+ ward save against non magical attacks, 6+ ward save against everything, MR 1 and are immune to psychology.

Rare Units:
Treeman
A monster with 5 WS5 S6 attacks and a shooting weapon with 6" range that fires 1 artillery dice shot that hit automatically (misfire is just no shots fired). These shots hits automatically and are at S4 (S5 if you are within a wood). The treeman is very hard to kill with T6, 6 wounds, 3+ armour save and 5+ ward save against non magical attacks. He is also stubborn at ld 8, is immune to psychology and causes terror (of course).

Great Eagle
A single flyer with 2 S4 attack at ws 5 and 3 T4 wounds.

Total: 2248 pts


So, here you have it. It's all up to you now. If you want more info on wood elves just ask and if any of you know more about them please tell the rest.

Hope you will all have fun, it's starting....
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Post by Slortor »

hmmm - from left to right in our army i would probably deploy...

both dark rider units 10" on, with harpies 12" to screen on the left of the rock, to the right of the rock would be the warriors with a sorceress 10" on with harpie screen 12" on. Next would be the witch elves in the centre behind the hill. (12" on) Then to the right of them would be the BG + DL (also 12" on). Then between wood and the BG is the COC. In the wood is the Hydra then in a long line between wod and board edge are the Xbows with other sorc (non tome one) - all 12" on.

Shades scout into the woods on the left. Not sure where I'd put the assassain - possibly start him in the witch elves for flexibility or in the shades, cause thats where things will probably happen.

In regard to the Woodies. The Alter Highborn probably has the bow of loren and arcane bodkins - which will give him 5 shots that ignore armour saves. Also will have a ward save - 3+ against either magic or non magic attacks.
Alter Noble probably has the 10pt magic bow (reroll to hit, takes S3 hit if reroll misses) and the Hail of Doom arrow (one use only 3D6 S4 shots). This could also be on the BSB... i woudl expect the other noble to have the glamourweave, or something to stop shooting, or prehaps the helm of the hunt if he feels agressive. the sorc has 2 scrolls i would think.



_________________________________________________________
plans for each unit.

Left flank: shades, harpies, 2 DR units.
- I'd expect the woodie left to be quite heavily deployed in, based around the wood, so these units are there for harshment and anoyance. Shades and/or harpies may need to be sacrificed to draw units out.

Centre: Harpies ,Warriors, WE.
- Flexible centre that could move to support either flank. The warriors are there to provide SCR for the harassment flank and to take a charge if wild riders etc overrun. Witch Elves move centrally - can turn either way and hopefully protected form early baiting by the hill. Harpies can bait or support the flanks.

Right: BG (+DL), CoC, Hydra, Xbows
- Far right seemed best place for the Xbows - good LOS and space to deploy in a long(ish) line. The BG, CoC and Hydra form the main DE strike force aimed down the right. Dreadlords main target is obviously the treeman is possible, hydra should look to flame war dancers etc or to charge. Can sit in wood to protect Xbows if needed. CoC provides support. Could solo charge most units in the WE army because they lack static res.

Magic - dark for both, defaulting to chillwind on both as well, hoping for Word of Pain (cripple dancers, dryads/ riders), Bladewind (pretty clear) or prehaps sould stealer. Black horror isnt much us here because of the skirmish formations and high strength of much of the army.

anything i missed?

Azure EDIT: Please try and keep all your posts together and in a single post. Makes the threads much less cluttered. If need be write it in microsoft word/notepad/paint and then copy it over! Thanks!
Name: Khalia D'Vaarko (meaning: Khalia, property of Vaarko)
Age: 210
Height/Weight: 5'6", 8 stone
Other: no distinguishing features, barring the brand of a great house left wrist.
Class: Mage
Equipment: Robes, Dagger, Staff
Skills: Power of Ulgu, Power of Chamon
Stats: Ws3, S3, T3, D4, I5

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Post by Megazephyr »

k, we gotta negate that treeman , so save our DD for treesinging and the fury of the forest.
the great eagle shouldnt be that hard to take out, but i have one question....
who made the list? make sure to keep our units out of the forests if we dont have the DD to negate all of his treesinging and such due to the fact that it rapes anything in the forest.


i agree with slortor on the bow of loren and arcane bodkins, its a pretty nasty combo,
put the shades either in the right forest with the assassin, put the hydra outside the left forest
i vote DR on the right flank if you put the shades in the right forest for quick support
harpies in front of the either witches or black guard, just due to the fact that black guard will get rocked by shooting and id like to see them survive to the other side of the board

try to negate whatever wood we can for their archers and skirmishers so that we can have more of an even fight on our side

Azure EDIT: Couple things here. Please try to only post once at a time. If you need to open up word, type the full response and then copy and paste it to the forum. Also, I as well as many others would appreciate the courtesy of using capital letters and punctuation. It really helps make your post more readable. Thanks!
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Post by The golden arrow »

I made both lists.

Also, please post only one post at a time, there is an edit button (shiz I sound like a moderator.... :P).
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Post by Megazephyr »

Ah golden, sorry about posting on both sites, and i was just wondering whether i missed the chance to help build a list or something.
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Post by T'keela »

While I'm not involved I thought that I might add a couple of things:

1. All WE units can move through woods without penalty. (Except for flyers using flying movement.)
2. They have a special rule called Woodland Ambush; after the roll for table edges but before deployment the WE player may place a wood no larger than 6" anywhere on his half of the table.
3. Treemen also have Tree Singing as a bound spell at power level 3. For all those who don't know Tree Singing has the following affects;
-The spell may be cast on any wood within 18" of the caster provided ther eare no enemy models within it. The spell makes the chosen wood move D3 + 1" inches in a direction nominated by the caster before rolling. The wood can contain friendly units, but the units must be entirely within the woods - if one or more models in the unit is outside the wood, then the spell cannot be targeted on that wood. Friendly troops within the woods are movied with it, but must end their turn at least 1" away from enemy troops and count as having moved. The wood stops moving as soon as it comes in contact with any other unit or piece of terrain. A wood can be moved more than once in the same Magic phase.

Alternatively, the spell can be used to inflict D6 S5 hits on a single enemy unit that is even partially within a wood or similar terrain feature.

(copied from P.79 of Wood Elf Armybook)



At any rate good luck guys! Do everyone at D.net proud.

EDIT: Treemen are also Flammable just incase there is a Hydra in the army. =P
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Post by The golden arrow »

For this battle the wood elf side may not use the woodland ambush rule.
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Post by Lakissov »

All right, time to analyze this a bit

First, a short analysis of the army lists

Dreadlord
Very fragile, but is capable of dealing with the Treeman single-handedly; in the ideal case, I’d like him to get into combat with the Treeman, but it’s not guaranteed. Against other characters, he would also be good. He is definitely able to boost any unit.

Sorceresses & Magic

First, let’s cover magic defense. We generate 4 DD and have 2DS against the enemy’s 3PD (of which only two can be used per turn by the L1 sorceress) and 1 bound tree singing. This most likely means that we don’t have to fear the magic too much. In those turns where we have some of our fragile characters on solo-missions in the woods, we have something to fear – but for those turns we can use 2DD for dispelling the bound tree-singing, and a scroll to dispel the spell (if it is cast at all). So that’s covered.

Now, about magic offense:
We generate 6 PD + bound Steed of Shadows against the enemy’s 3DD and 2DS (I assume that the L1 spell singer is a scroll caddy); we have 5 spells among two sorceresses. This means that magic can become a good asset for us.

When deciding upon the lore for each sorceress, we should consider several things:
- The opponent has many ItP units
- The opponent has a lot of MR
- All our characters are on foot; besides, our lord, although mighty, doesn’t have a delivery mechanism to get to the things he’d like to kill
- The opponent is very mobile, and most of his units are weaker than our units in CC

You see where I’m hinting? It might be a very good idea to take the lore of shadows at least on one of the sorceresses – maybe even both.

Yes, some of the spells are crap, but we don’t have too many PD anyway, so we won’t be able to cast many spells anyway. If each sorceress has one useful spell, that is enough. And with two killer-characters on foot (the Dreadlord and the Assassin), steed of shadows becomes a very unpleasant spell for the opponent.

Just imagine – first turn, we could cast Steed of Shadows three times on the Dreadlord (the bound, and the two castings on three PD each). The opponent either has to let us teleport the dreadlord to a character/unit that we want dead this turn, or use up all the magic defense (yes, both scrolls would be needed to stop this) – and then we can try again next turn, this time unstoppable.

And we might even get lucky, and roll the Unseen Lurker with one of the sorceresses…

So, I strongly recommend taking the Lore of Shadow with both sorceresses

Infantry blocks

We have three infantry blocks that the opponent can’t hope to take head on: the BG, the witches and the warriors. This means that the opponent will have to try to outmanoeuvre them with fast cavalry – and even this will only be a problem for warriors and witches; BG will just slaughter anything that gets in tough with them, so the enemy will try to shoot them instead.

Movement Control

For movement control, we have 2 units of harpies, two units of DR, and 15 crossbow elves. With this, we should be able to eliminate enemy fast units quickly. However, I’d actually suggest to focus more shooting on glade guard – because they are the main unit that is able to make both our fast units and our infantry useless (they do shoot quite well).

Additionally, I expect that some of our light units are going to be in great danger from the alter noble and highborn. They are very good at taking out such units. This means – keep harpies away from the threat range of these monstrosities.

Combat

Here we have clear superiority. The only enemy units that are able to be good in CC are dryads, wardancers and treeman. However, each of our own combat units on its own is better than each of theirs. So, we are ok with going solo into combat against them, but they are not OK with going solo into combat against our units. They will have to combo-charge, and we don’t have to. Hence, our task is to prevent combo-charging.

---

Now, some words about the terrain

The left flank of the battlefield hosts a wood – an important strategic asset for the enemy.

The center hosts a hill – very good for protection from shooting and for getting up close and personal (the one who gets close to the hill, but not on top, will prevent the enemy from getting on top of the hill, as he will be threatening to make a charge; however, our combat units don’t fear to get charge by woodies, and so this is more of an asset for us).

The right flank has a piece of difficult terrain, which is an excellent place to put archers behind – making any potential chargers go through or around difficult terrain; the wood elves will most likely put a unit of archers here, which will make this flank dangerous for our fast units to be.

Based on this, I’d suspect that the enemy will put many manoeuvrable elements on the right flank, along with the archers.

The wardancers will most likely hide in the wood on the left, together with the scroll caddy. The dryads can then occupy the center.

What’s important to understand during deployment is that a big part of the strength of our list lies in our ranked infantry, and so we can’t afford to put it on any of the far flanks (because whatever we guess, the enemy might be on the other flank – and then our infantry is wasted). So, I’d put all of our infantry in the middle, from which they could go to any of the sides. I’d have a slight bias towards the left flank, though, as I believe that the most stuff to kill will be there.

I’d load the right flank with shooting elements, to prevent the light units of the enemy deployed there from feeling too comfortable. I’d put the crossbows there, 10-wide, touching the wood, and both dark rider units, touching it from the other side (it can’t move left or right). I’d put the shades inside the wood, and move them out in the very first turn, to shoot and to not even have the slightest risk of tree singing damaging them. This way, I’d have 52 shots on this flank.

As for the main force in the centre-left, I’d anchor the very left flank of this force with my COC, to prevent from being outflanked by any light units. Then, I’d put my witches and warriors nearby. The dreadlord and the assassin would go into the warriors unit – they can redeploy later, if needed. The hydra and the BG would go into the very centre of the battlefield, with BG covering its right flank, and the hydra being able to get to left, right or centre – wherever there is more stuff to eat. The harpies would stay hidden behind my infantry units – I might need them later to block incoming charges. Also, from the places where they are,t hey are both able to hop to behind the hill, protected from potential charges and whatever else – and from there, they can go pretty much anywhere.

Lastly, the sorceresses should both go into BG (to its left corner) – this is a very good ItP bodyguard unit, and it is close enough to the targets of Stead of Shadows and Unseen Lurker. Besides, later I might redeploy them, if I felt like it.

So, the deployment would be like this, if I were to decide:
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Post by Cal'mihe »

Good analysis Lakissov, though I'm afraid I don't agree with the deployment of the Dark Riders. In your plan, they become a bolster to the shooting power of the left flank, but if you are correct and a significant number of archers are deployed opposite them, then they risk becomming pincussions very quickly.
I feel this is a bit of a waste of the Dark Riders, to use them as archery bait. An alternative could be to take them back a bit, so we're sure they're out of range of the wood elves bows from the beginning, they have enough movement to move up very swiftly anyway, and still have range on their own crossbows. Or, deploy the shades in front of them as a screen, in order to give the enemy a worse to-hit modifier. They're expensive in this role though, possibly too expensive.

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Post by Lakissov »

Agreed, Cal'Mihe - that's a better way to deploy and use the dark riders (I mean, putting them back a bit - not screening with shades).

The wood elves have an effective range of 35" (5" move and 30" range of bows), so the DR will have to be deployed 11+" from the line of deployment - still enough to march forward later and unleash the fire.

Given that there is a piece of difficult terrain before the archers, the dark riders can simply line against the edge fo the table - and they'll likely be out of range of most of the archers.
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Post by Cathel »

Why do you put the harpies behind the witches and BG? I would use them to screen in the first turn. If we go first they are out of the way fast enough.

I do not agree on the lore for the sorceresses. Forest spirit save does not work vs magic and stopping one or two units from shooting might be a good idea, so I would go for dark lore.
I also would move the whole army more to the right.
I also would position some shooting element, i.e. rxb, to the left to make crossing that open space a bit more painful. I suggest to bolster the rxb with a sorc (vs. forst spirits) and screen them with harpies. In the first move fly the harpies away behind the hill or marchblock from behind an enemy unit if the WE get first turn.
If they were not sitting on our land, I would not spend a single bolt on the Asur.
How to tell apart the elves:
Men run naked - Asrai
Women run naked - Druchii
Don't know whether man or woman - Asur
The golden arrow
Cold One Knight
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Post by The golden arrow »

You have a few hours remaining (I won't have time to look at it until tomorrow though so you might be able to sneak in a few more posts when I'm not watching... ;))

If none says anything I'll go with Cal'Mihe's deployment and the lore of shadows.
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Slortor
Malekith's Personal Guard
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Post by Slortor »

hmm... I'll accept both shadow lore and Cal'Mihe's deployment - both are sound :)

have we picked a captain yet? might be worth doing
Name: Khalia D'Vaarko (meaning: Khalia, property of Vaarko)
Age: 210
Height/Weight: 5'6", 8 stone
Other: no distinguishing features, barring the brand of a great house left wrist.
Class: Mage
Equipment: Robes, Dagger, Staff
Skills: Power of Ulgu, Power of Chamon
Stats: Ws3, S3, T3, D4, I5

lrnec wrote: Reality and truth is more brutal than almost any fantasy game
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