Keljhan's Cohorts - 2000 point dark elf army

iLLiTHiD · Post by **iLLiTHiD** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 4:01 am

Greetings fellow druchii, I present the following army list for your consideration.
As I believe that the dark elves as an army are best described as fast and hard hitting, yet lacking substance for long pitched battles, I believe that a 'hammer and anvil' strategy is most likely to yield the best results.
Below I have 2 army lists, both with room for variation. One is a melee heavy focus, the other contains caster heros.

List 1

Heros

Dreadlord
Cold One, Sea Dragon Cloak, Crimson Death, Armour of Eternal Servitude, Pendant of Khaeleth

Sorcereress lvl 1
either dispel scroll x 2

Master
Dark Pegasus, Heavy Armour, Sea Dragon Cloak, Shield, Lance, Deathmask

Core

Dark elf spearmen x 19
shields, full command
*sorcerress joins this unit, making it a block of 20

Dark elf spearmen x 19
shields, full command

Repeater Crossbowmen x 10
shields, musician

Black ark Corsairs x 10
Full command

Dark Riders x 5
Reaper Crossbows, shields, musician

Harpies x 5

Special

Cold One Knights x 5
Full Command, Ring of Hotek

Cold One Chariot

Rare

Reaper Bolt Thrower x 2

War Hydra

Strategy: Basically, there are 2 parts to this army, the 'hammer' and the 'anvil'. The hammer consists of placing the war hydra right in the middle of the deployment zone as a hinge for the rest of the hammer to align themselves with. Then, either left or right (depending on the enemy set up) I would place as follows: Hydra, next to it the CoK, then Chariot, then D.riders then Master on pegasus. This line up, would *roughly* swing in a 90 degree arc, using superior speed, strength and fear/terror effects to collapse the enemy battle line. Once the hammer has made inroads through the enemy battle line, it woud 'roll up' the enemy army, forcing the enemy to focus between the incoming hammer and the anvil aspect of my army approaching directly oposite their remaining position.

The anvil's role is largely to pre-occupy the enemy army and to hold out long enough for the hammer to complete its task, whilst not suffering too many losses. It is expected that the anvil will suffer the brunt of the damage, yet I believe that the threat of 2 spearelves, corsair unit, harpies and the sorcereress as well as the fire support from RxB and RbT will stem the incoming enemy enough to hold the line. The set up of the army from the other side of the Hydra (who is positioned in the middle) would be this: Spear elves, Corsairs, Spear elves with sorcereress, Harpies. Behind this would be the RxB and RbT's.

List 2.

The list is virtually identical, the main differences being in the choice of heros. List 2 is designed to tackle more powerful armies that I can't rely on fear/terror from collapsing, namely the use of powerful magic. I removed the ring of hotek from the CoK as it will interfere with my sorceress.

Supreme Sorceress
lvl 4 + dark pegasus + focus familiar + pendant of khaeleth

Sorceress lvl 1
(still the scroll caddy)

The Master has 2 variations himself, either a unit support or a more meatier killing machine. He will be amongst the warrior unit to help hold the line.

Master 1. Unit Support.

bsb + heavy armour + sea dragon cloak
either + shield and + biting blade
OR
+ halberd/great weapon/2nd hand weapon

unit support helps boost the troops with him using a bsb.

Master 2. Killing Machine

either + armour of darkness + soulrender
OR
+ dagger of hotek would be duel wielded with regular hand weapon
OR
+ shield + whip of agony

General areas of concern for both army lists:
What to do with the placement of the sorceress? Is standing her in a spearelf regiment really a good idea? Some suggest that they should rider on a horse. prehaps position her behind the corsairs on horseback? Would that only be worth the trouble in my 2nd army lst, where she is lvl 2?

I've also grappled with the idea of mounting either the dreadlord or master on a manticore instead. I understand that the manticore is rather vunrable to missile fire, so prehaps the dreadlord could ride one with ring of darkness and some combination such as armour of darkness and crimson death, or pendant of khaeleth.

This would mean i would have to lose the chariot and prehaps 1 of the RbTs, also the pegasus would go, but that frees up 50 points, prehaps a banner of 5 more corsairs? The master can either go on foot with a gear set up like the 2nd army list, or he could join the d.riders on horseback and still add to the fast 'fear bomb' idea.

The other negative aspect would be that the CoK and possibly the chariot would lose the general's leadership aura for stupidity tests, dropping from a 1/5 to a 1/4 chance. Any delays on the hammer's progression across the battlefield would be disasterous. The general would also be out of the ring of hotek's magic protection so instead of shooting he may be the target of some spells...

I know this has been a rather lengthy post, yet I wanted to get out all the ideas bouncing around in my head. Any comments, questions or suggestions are most welcome. The more feedback the better. You can comment on 1 section or the entire post if you're up to it

Please don't post individual point costs of items, as it is against Forum Rules.
--Loki

Rabidnid · Post by **Rabidnid** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 8:20 am

Welcome to D-net

First off you are not supposed to include item cost in posts, it annoys GW.

Second, the cost of the muso on your RXB is wrong, they have a separate entry to the spear warriors with diffrent command costs, just to confuse things.

You lord is fine and fairy typical. The thing to keep in mind thouh is if he is goingin the CoKs you are not even starting with 5 rank and file models, so any shooting has to be randomised between him the champ and the other 4 models.

Dark riders lose fast cavalry status with the shields, which is a very bad thing. I would skip those for the moment and learn to use them as fast cav to their full potential.

Try and get both spear blocks to 20, as the caddie really needs to leave before combat. She dosen't need to have line of sight as a caddie so hide her out of the way somewhere.

The corsairs appear to include a banner, one of the spear blocks might back better use of it. The corsairs will do fine with just a champ at only 10 strong in a 7/3 formation to maximise the number of attacks they get.

Your rare choices are fine.

As for the magic you really need more than just a level 4 and Caddie. At least increase the caddie to a lvl 2 and give her an item to improve her magic ability.

Not a bad first try anyway

iLLiTHiD · Post by **iLLiTHiD** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 4:36 pm

Rabidnid,

Thanks for your quick reply. I'm sorry about posting the cost, I'll be sure to edit my post to remove them, mustn't upset the powers that be

I've been spending some time since reading your reply to go over my list, and also read some of the tactics suggested on d-net. It is definately a task to theorycraft exactly how you want your army to work. I liked the post about 'inclusive balance' in an army; a focus but not a one-trick pony. Of course, its alot harder to put it into place. Well, here goes my latests thoughts:

Heros

Dreadlord @ 294
Sea Dragon Cloak, shield, armour of eternal servitude, pendant of khaeleth, (either deathpiercer or whip of agony), dark pegasus

Sorceress @ 187
lvl 2, tome of furion, darkstar cloak, dark steed
*rides with dark riders unit

Sorceress @ 185
lvl 2, dispel scroll x 2
*sits in spear elf or cross bow unit

Core

Spears x 20 @ 155
shields, full command

Spears x 20 @ 155
shields, full command

Repeater Crossbowmen x 10 @ 115
shields, musician

Black ark Corsairs x 14 @ 165
Full command

Dark Riders x 5 @ 117
Reaper Crossbows, musician

Harpies x 5 @ 55

Special

Cold One Knights x 5 @ 200
Full Command, Ring of Hotek

Rare

Reaper Bolt Thrower x 2 @ 200

War Hydra @ 175

Total = 2003

OR

drop 4 corsairs

drop 1 block of 20 spear elves

add 5 spear elves to expand remaining unit to 25 spear elves

drop dark pegasus from hero

add manticore

swap around pendant of khaeleth with ring of darkness

= 1998

I was considering firstly my hero placement. If I go 2 melee characters (dreadlord and master), I really will be only giving myself enough points for a scroll caddy as far as magic is concerned. I want to be at least a contender in the magic phase, so I need to look at 2 lvl 2's minimum. Whilst some players love a caster general, I've always felt secure with your general being abit of a beefcake for melee purposes, so I'll be sticking with the dreadlord.
My issue is now, where do I put him? 3 options; manticore, dark pegasus or cold one. The cold one option would work well with the leadership aspect for the unit of CoK as per my first plan, yet as you point out, it will leave him rather vunrable to missile fire. Dark Pegasus and Manticore both have flight, so superior movement would play well into the druchii way: superior movement to fight where and when you choose,and hopefuly being able to fly out of range of missile fire to boot.

The manticore lacks any armour save for 200 point mount, and its toughness alone is not enough to save it from being shot to pieces due to large target rule. I was considering gearing the dreadlord out with the ring of darkness to offer missile protection..would you know if that would be reasonable enough defense in most situatons? If the ring of darkness is not enough, I will simply take the dark pegasus, it offers the superior movement that flight presents, but without the large target drawback.

Oh, and in regard to the 2 lvl 2 sorcs, which would you advise? I have one with the dark riders to protect her but also to get her closer to the action. The other sorceress would stay with the spearelves or the crossbows. Unsure on optimal gear for them, was considering dagger for sorc in the spearelves, but i also feel mounted sorc will need dice from cloak. I could give dagger and scoll to sorc on foot, and scoll and tome to mounted.

Once again, your comment are most welcome and appreciated.

*Edit: Spelling errors

Krupp · Post by **Krupp** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 7:29 pm

The Peggy has a serious flaw in that people will just direct their attacks into it. I found that a cold one or dark steed is a better choice, at least for a dreadlord. The Manticore has the same problem, only worse because he's easy to shoot at. And at 200pts, you might as well go the rest of the way and take a dragon.

As for your magic users, drop a scroll and take the dagger. The dagger gives a HUGE boost to your magic phase. It's almost like giving her another 3 powerdice per turn.

Nobody around here likes to give the corsairs handbows which I find strange. They become a more defensive unit, but have a much greater damage potential. With the AP banner they can waste knights. The best part is they get more than twice the strength 3 hits they would get with 2 hand weapons and you don't have to commit them to combat.

Rabidnid · Post by **Rabidnid** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 7:33 pm

Your second list looks rather good, you have 3 solid infantry units and a Ld-10 general to help with the leadership the leadership tests they need to take.

Another option for your lord is stick him on a pony. Boring as it sounds, it is only marginally less flexible tha the the DP and allows him to attach to an infantry unit to use as a meat shield veruss a lot of shooting or non character targeted magic. Also, sword of might does the same thing as the whip of gony for 10 points less. Mine has a dark steed, heavy armour, seadragon cloak and enchanted shield for a 1+ save in melee and 0+ save versus shooting. Pendant of Kaleth, sword of might and a potion of strength gives him a basic S-5 attack magic weapon attack with the option of a turn of S-8.

Magic-wise 2x lvl 2 is light, but you are paying 350 points for a lot of potential damage rather than 150 points for trivial defensive magic. Due to some conversions I've made all of my mages are on foot, and I have finally stopped using the familiar for the moment. Basically you have a lot of solid infantry to hide in, so a Dark Star Cloak and the Dagger of Sacrifice will give you a lot of potential power dice to drive your spells. 4 DD and 2 scrolls is nothing special, but the ring will help there as well. I my list I drop the RBT for a 3rd lvl 2, but I can't recomend that to most people as I give my self a heart attack each game dealing with heavy armoured critters without them

I can't recomend the manticore. Other people have used them with success, but the added vulnerablility of both your lord without PoK and the large target manticore is too great without a dragon or a couple hydras to hide behind.

Probably my only question is what do the corsairs think they are doing? S-3 attacks aren't going to bother anybody and their save is combat is no better than the spears. I use a unit of 14 witches with a banner for about 210, but they get 18 poison attacks and 4 manbane attacks which will be up to strength 6 depending on the target. Even without a banner they have definitely had their moments.

As a compromise for my core infantry I am looking at 18 spears in 6x3 with FC and a banner for about 168. They will still die horribly to most things but have more bodies than the corsairs for less points and about the same number of attacks in the second round. Basically I can't say anything nice about corsairs, I don't like the new models and their slaver rule isn't a good enough reason for me to take them.

You do have the basics of a good list down. My only serious advice is never put a sorc in a Dark Rider unit. Just give her the familiar and let her run about using other units and terrain for cover. On foot you can go with the Dark Star Cloak and hide in an infantry block.

iLLiTHiD · Post by **iLLiTHiD** » Sun Apr 26, 2009 10:14 am

Rabidnid,

Thank you once more for your valued criticism of my army list. I feel its beginning to shape up alittle more into the picture of how I wanted to execute my strategy.

The tip about the sorceress was most useful, I will ride her behind either the harpies or the dark riders (not in it) so she is screened by them, but still close enough to deal some nasty damage. The seond one will most likely sit in a spearelf or crossbow unit as planned. I think giving darkstart cloak to the mounted sorc and either tome of furion or dagger is the way to go.

On what you said about replacing the corsairs, I've been considering that myself. I was quite attracted to the executioners. If I play them as a small suport unit to the spears, getting a flanking charge with strength 6 and killing blow is definately going to leave a dent in the side of most oponents. Plus they look awesome

My only dilemma now is I have 31 points spare. Do I;

a) spend 24 points on 2 more executioners and spend the last 7 on a spearelf?

b)buy a magic banner (warbanner or banner of murder) for either the spears, the executioners or the CoK?

I dont know how useful armour penetration would be for CoK, but the extra resolution might help them break an enemy unit, which is vital for the hammer side of my forces to possess that fluidity and rapid advancement. Drawing or losing combat would not be good for CoK, even if they hold ground, simply because of the fact they need to be constantly moving and charging the enemy to be rendering my army service.

Krupp,

In regards to the dreadlord, I have come to agree that the manticore is probably better fielded by a master rather than wasting that level of risk on the general. As such, I wont be taking it. It is a close run between dark pegasus and dark steed, though I still feel the Pegasus offers greater mobility which is what I seek. Being able to fly over units and terrain is invaluable. Although if I were to take a cold one or dark steed, the question of what exactly the general is suposed to achieve arises.

I originally had in mind a highly mobile general that could both strike hard at the enemy as well as supporting his troops via higher leadership. I know he cannot complete both tasks at once. At first I sought to place him wit the CoK, so that his leadership would assist with the stupidity checks. Yet as Rabidnid said, he would be vunrable to missile fire. I then thought if he had flight he could avoid some missile fire to attack targets of oppertunity or assist with a flanking or rear strike on a unit attacked by another part of the hammer (hydra, CoK etc). If however, you feel that the pegasus will simply get shot to pieces beneath him, I question, either the superior movement of the steed to get him in and out of combat quickly (and thus avoiding sniper efforts, bogged down in unfavourable combat etc) or the superior protection and attack power of the cold one. if I were to take the cold one, then I return to the original question, do I keep him seperate or keep him with the CoK?

I think ultimately the question falls to speed over protection. Both the pegasus and the steed offer their version of higher mobility, yet the intrinsic issue of the pegasus being slain, thus leaving the general isolated from the rest of the army and vunrable to being killed off or boxed in, also givs me pause. Prehaps If I were to move him behind a screen, say..the harpies on the far end of the 'anvil' side of the force. After the 1st turn, he could carry on ahead of the harpies as they peeled off to march block any incoming forces towards the anvil, leaving the dreadlord free to fly to the rear of the enemy army and begin creating some chaos.
Or there is the option for the dark steed. Keeping I will deck him out in the pendant, crimson death and armour of darkness. I lose the regen save but I still have a solid normal and ward save. To be honest I think the regen save was a tad of an overkill. If I feel that im getting around fine without the need for flight, I may downgrade to a steed and take a magic standard or 2.

As for the corsairs, taking them in a shooting role is an interesting idea. The AP banner could be a nasty suprise for any enemy thinking they can bulldoze over the anvil side. Im not sure however, if taking them in a hybrid melee/ranged role is a good or a bad idea to the anvil's cause. It does grant them a more flexible role in both weakening the incoming enemy through range, then assisting a spear regiment with a flanking attack (as well as being missile resistant themselves, a protection for the spears). The flip side is that the executioners offer very powerful counter-offensive attacks in a supporting role (not that good taking a charge themselves, striking last with low toughness, low armour = gg). Also, the corsairs, unless the particular battlefield permits, wouldnt be able to use their full numbers in shooting as they would be on the low ground with the spear elves.

Anyhow, thats quite abit to chew on. As always, please feel free to comment on any aspect of what I've posted here.

Rabidnid · Post by **Rabidnid** » Sun Apr 26, 2009 10:29 am

The DL combintion is a good one, just make sure you have a dismounted figure for him in case his mount dies.

As for banners, The Standard of Slaughter is the usual choice for the CoKs to give them the best chance of breaking an opponent on contact. Upgrading a exe to a champ is another option for spare points, as it will let you concentrate more attacks in a narrow front, for when you are hitting flanks.

iLLiTHiD · Post by **iLLiTHiD** » Sun Apr 26, 2009 2:53 pm

Rabidnid,

Thanks for the tip on the banner. That extra resolution should be the ticket. It puts me 4 points over 2k, but I think noone is going to complain if you're 5 points either way of the threshold.

Now about that model...I was checking out the mounted dreadlord model on GW webby...the damn guy is wielding a sword and board. Crimson death I see as a massive bloodied halberd or draich or something. Thats going to be quite a little project selecting which way to model him. At least the dreadlord with great weapon on foot will present itself as an acceptable representation if he is dismounted.

Also, think I should buy the pegasus then just switch over the dreadlord? or do a dodgey and stick pegasus wings on a dark steed? lol I think that would look terribad.

Rabidnid · Post by **Rabidnid** » Sun Apr 26, 2009 8:49 pm

iLLiTHiD wrote:Rabidnid,

Thanks for the tip on the banner. That extra resolution should be the ticket. It puts me 4 points over 2k, but I think noone is going to complain if you're 5 points either way of the threshold.

Now about that model...I was checking out the mounted dreadlord model on GW webby...the damn guy is wielding a sword and board. Crimson death I see as a massive bloodied halberd or draich or something. Thats going to be quite a little project selecting which way to model him. At least the dreadlord with great weapon on foot will present itself as an acceptable representation if he is dismounted.

Also, think I should buy the pegasus then just switch over the dreadlord? or do a dodgey and stick pegasus wings on a dark steed? lol I think that would look terribad.

Figure-wise I use the winged nightmare wings on our CoK cold one with a lengthened tail. You could pin them straight onto our existing metal CO figure. For the Crimson death I use the standard that comes with the Dark rider command mounted on a piece of 1.2 mm (3/32) brass rod. It is huge nd has skulls hanging off it.

Excuse terrible photo, its the middle of the night and I only have my phone. And none of the imageshack links are working properly

http://img111.imageshack.us/my.php?imag ... dblade.jpg

iLLiTHiD · Post by **iLLiTHiD** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 7:21 am

Nice looking modifications..a flying cold one is a rather sinister addition to an army. Just gotta hope they don't fail their stupidity test mid-air and forget to flap their wings

I was reading some of the tactics on d-net about MSU. It was an interesting read, and whilst I wouldn't say I am a 'true believer' in so far as having a pure MSU list, I think certain concepts can be applied to my own list.

For example, I was considering MSU's implications on my infantry. 2 blocks of 20 spears could be changed to 2 blocks of 15 and 1 block of 10, the 10 being the sacrificial lamb. Additionally, the executioner units could be reduced to 5 (possibly 6 if i could find some spare points to squeeze an extra executioner for both detachments).

Rabidnid · Post by **Rabidnid** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 9:14 am

iLLiTHiD wrote:Nice looking modifications..a flying cold one is a rather sinister addition to an army. Just gotta hope they don't fail their stupidity test mid-air and forget to flap their wings

I was reading some of the tactics on d-net about MSU. It was an interesting read, and whilst I wouldn't say I am a 'true believer' in so far as having a pure MSU list, I think certain concepts can be applied to my own list.

For example, I was considering MSU's implications on my infantry. 2 blocks of 20 spears could be changed to 2 blocks of 15 and 1 block of 10, the 10 being the sacrificial lamb. Additionally, the executioner units could be reduced to 5 (possibly 6 if i could find some spare points to squeeze an extra executioner for both detachments).

All of my CoKs have been converted to dark steeds, as my rolling for stupidity is so bad. I do have a CoC that I am still working on, as they are hard hitting and narrow frontaged, but that will be a HE lion chariot, possibly with stub wings and stinger tails on the lions to make them manticore cubs.

MSU is basically about having a lot of small units, and the expectation that none of your unitis individually will be able to stand up to the enemy by themselves. The advantage is that though timing and manouvre, you can exploit the number of units you have to lauch combi charges that will crush an oppoent though SCR with minimal damage to your own units. I can say that it does combine well with both shooting and magic, but is not a tactic for the faint hearted

Very small units like the 5-7 strong witches I have used, have the issue that they can be reduced to below 5, this not nulifying ransk, or are unwieldy from being over 5 wide. To compensate for this my witches are now in units of 10 (5x2) as a manouvre unit, but will expand out as required. Generally though they are hitting flanks, so the rank bonus and getting the hag into BtB with the enemy is more important than the width of the unit.

My army is still evolving as I play better players in bigger games, but to date the small hard hittign flank units have worked well. My bait spears have done remarkably well in several combats and are getting upgraded to around 100 points. 14 spears with lordling and muso can bait and charge as required, is big enough to pose a threat to most other core infantry, and can be written off as they are only 100 points like a unit of DR or a unit of RXB. A lot of people use the RHB corsairs for this, but I prefer my RXB. Skellies and other crap infantry have discovered that a 4+ save and WS-4 means RXB stand up to charges better than most DE units.

I'm not going to advise how to use MSU as my list is pretty strange. Bascally have small units to flank charge when the opportunity presents itself, and make sure that the alignment of all your units exposes the enemy to these charges. The majority of my infantry is RXB in small units to minimise the loss when something goes wrong, to give e a reserve as the game progresses, and for the pseudo ASF effect of the stand and shoot.

Find a style that works for you. Theory is great, but practice is better

iLLiTHiD · Post by **iLLiTHiD** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 3:09 pm

I was looking around and it seems that comp standard points seem to be more aimed at 2250. Is that correct?

If so, I was planning on how I can add to this list

First was to add a CoC and an assassin with AHW, Rune of Khaine and Manbane
Was planning on putting the assassin in with one of the spears, to help gank any threat to that side of the battlefield. The chariot would probably ride near the infantry to act as support, going for a flank charge or something.

Those 2 additions would put me right on 2250.

However, I was also considering instead of those, adding a master on foot with full mundane, great weapon, bsb and ASF banner with the executioners. Not sure what else to spend my remaining points on. WIth the master that leaves 94 points. Potentially I could add another executioner to make it an even 6 units per rank and boost the unit to 12. Other than that, I really dont know what to add the points to. Prehaps more harpies for a screening unit? Any thoughts?

Rabidnid · Post by **Rabidnid** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 3:28 pm

iLLiTHiD wrote:I was looking around and it seems that comp standard points seem to be more aimed at 2250. Is that correct?

More or less. I wouldn't get too worried about specific lists and just play what games you can at what points you can. I get the odd 2k game, but mostly play at 1500 or so, though tournamensts here are mostly 2250 or 2500. Assassins and chariots are both fine, but the death hag with the ASF banner for the exes (they are khanite so can't be joined b a master) is very expensive for what it does.

Play some games to solidify your style, and then add more things based on what works for you.

iLLiTHiD · Post by **iLLiTHiD** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 3:36 pm

Ah, I totally forgot about that damnable Khanite rule, wretched factional warfare! So only a death hag can lead em eh? Yeah that would be a tad expensive. Ah well, I will just rely on what my previous plan was, just to get them to attack on the charge, and hope I can break the enemy with enough str 6 insta-gibb attacks >: )

As for the assassin, I often see people kit him out with manbane and rending stars for str 7...would that be superior to the rune? I guess its a case of more attacks or stronger attacks at range. I always thought the assassin was the CC king though. I supose rending stars is good for deploying him as a scout?

Rabidnid · Post by **Rabidnid** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 8:18 pm

iLLiTHiD wrote:Ah, I totally forgot about that damnable Khanite rule, wretched factional warfare! So only a death hag can lead em eh? Yeah that would be a tad expensive. Ah well, I will just rely on what my previous plan was, just to get them to attack on the charge, and hope I can break the enemy with enough str 6 insta-gibb attacks >: )

As for the assassin, I often see people kit him out with manbane and rending stars for str 7...would that be superior to the rune? I guess its a case of more attacks or stronger attacks at range. I always thought the assassin was the CC king though. I supose rending stars is good for deploying him as a scout?

Assassins aren't that great due to their lack of a save. Against HE or similar they work well, but versus something like WoC they are dependant on KB to do damage. I've stopped using them for the moment due to all the demon and and WoC armies I'm playing with their massive armour and ward saves. A PoK BSB is a better choice if you have the slot, or another hydra, or an RBT or 2. If you already have these, then just spend the points of more core. Diverse lists with lots of different capabilities are usually more fun and less suseptable to bad dice than one trick pony lists.

iLLiTHiD · Post by **iLLiTHiD** » Fri May 01, 2009 5:34 pm

I've been looking into how best to expand my force to 2250 following some research. I've established 3 lists so far:

1st, which is most favourable to my liking, but is by no means 'perfect' is strengthening the anvil

Replace executioners
Add 15 black guard with full command, ASF banner
Add master with ring of darkness, full mundane and either shield or great weapon

total is around 2249 (shield) or 2251 (great weapon)

The benefits of this is fairly obvious as the well-documented advantage of elite troops that the BG are, with ASF to lend them superior attack power. THe ring of darkness is meant to confer defenses to the entire group against missile fire and his own personal protection.
The master is more for unit support that any crazy damage of his own, thus my division over giving him increased protection with a shield, or to take advantage of the ASF to give him a great weapon. I'm leaning towards shield as I do *not* want this fellow to be downed easily, or the unit will lose its prescious ring of darkness missile protection. Also I am light on screening units in this army, so I wonder if deploying them slightly further back from the spearmen front lines will be effective .

2nd list is a master BSB

Master with full mundane, bsb and hydra banner on a cold one, rides with CoK.

Advantages are to boost the already magic bannered CoK, giving them both hydra banner and standard of slaughter. An incredible offensive boost! Extra attacks with extra resolution I would imagine would collapse most any unit it flanked. There is 26 points left over to allow for another warbanner or some such to be added to the infantry, or to expand their ranks.
The disadvantages are: 1, reroll aura for BSB is alittle wasted on such high leadership units, bsb would be more suited to the infantry imo. 2. 2 magic banners seems like too many eggs in one basket, with a huge investment potentially being wiped out rather quickly with concentrated ranged fire. 3. Stupidity would hold back the large investment from actually achieving anything with the points invested.

3rd list is a death hag with cauldron of blood
Hag would have dance of doom and black lotus (or witchbrew and manbane, or any other variant)
points = 2254

Advantages would be the ability to boost my troops with the various blessings of the cauldron. ward saves on the hydra would allow it to rampage through the enemy lines for example, or extra attacks on the executioners or crossbows would smite down any fools that get close. The hag would naturally serve as a guard of sorts against any ambush attempts on the crew, with the ability to kit her out with either KB, poisons, a ward save or extra attacks depending on the army I would be facing. can also challange to buy time for reinforments to arrive.
Disadvantages are that for a high cost it is rather slow at moving and the crew are highly vunrable, no armour at all. Hags have great combat abilities but being posiitoned with the cauldron will mean her combat prowess is largely confined to guard duties, a somewhat waste of her skill.

Option 1 is defensive heavy with the addtional foot troops, meaning my hammer side will have abit more pressure placed on them to break enemy lines.

Option 2 is alot more offensive in nature, offering a great boost to the offensive line-breaking powers of the CoK. It is also the higher risk option, as the investment could be lost from enemy baiting or shooting the unit down.

Option 3 is a balance between the two, with the added flexibility of the cauldron blessings to either boost defenses or enhance attacks. If I'm wise with my deployment, I could also grant stubborness to the executioner ranks, another defensive boost. Its drawback is the large points investment to a unit that really only buffs other troops, it doesnt directly add to the kill count unless its attacked itself.

Anyhow, there it is. Rather complex I know, though I like to give great thought into the composition of my army will affect the overall gameplay and strategy of the army. As always, any insight and advice is welcome.

*Edit: Spelling corrections.

Rabidnid · Post by **Rabidnid** » Fri May 01, 2009 7:36 pm

it would help to post your current list as I'm losing track of what it looks like. I ould add a 3 sorceress and 70 point spear unit. play some games and see what happens. going from 2 to 3 magies will help power your magic and be a bigger boost than a hydra banner or cauldron

iLLiTHiD · Post by **iLLiTHiD** » Sat May 02, 2009 2:12 am

Ok, here's the list as it currently stands.

Hero

Dreadlord @ 285
Crimson Death, Pendant of Khaeleth, Armour of darkness, sea dragon cloak, dark pegasus

Sorceress @ 187
lvl 2, darkstar cloak, tome of furion, dark steed
*ride behind dark riders

Sorceress @ 185
lvl 2, dispel scroll x 2
*sits in spear elf unit or crossbow unit

subtotal = 657

Core

Spears x 20 @ 155
shields, full command

Spears x 20 @ 155
shields, full command

Repeater Crossbowmen x 10 @ 115
shields, musician

Dark Riders x 5 @ 117
Reaper Crossbows, musician

Harpies x 5 @ 55

subtotal = 632

Special

Cold One Knights x 5 @ 235
Full Command, Ring of Hotek, Standard of Slaughter

Executioners x 10 @ 150
Full Command

subtotal @ 350

Rare

Reaper Bolt Thrower x 2 @ 200

War Hydra @ 175

subtotal @ 375

Total = 2004

First, a minor point. With these upgrade plans to 2250, I have factored in another 10 points to switch my dreadlord's armour over to eternal servide and a sea dragon cloak. I dont know what's more beneficial, 3 middle level saves 4+ normal, reverse ward, 4+ regen save, or a strong normal 1+ and the reverse ward (typically around 4+ to 3+ from my understanding). I'm guessing the 3 saves are better, as regen can help vs magic.

Plan one to upgrade to 2250 was swap executioners to bg. Plan two wasto give master in CoK, plan three was death hag with cauldron of blood. Looking at your suggestion, to add more spears and a 3rd sorc.

2004

Sorc @ 185
lvl 2, dispel scroll, sacrificial dagger

I might swap the items on my sorc to give tome of furion and staff of sorcery to the one of horseback , dispel scrolls to the other two on foot, with each using either the darkstar cloak or dagger. Not sure if giving the one of horseback the extra dispel is better than giving her the cloak for extra casting. She will be offensive in her magic, the other two will remain with the units and primarily be casting against incoming attackers towards the infantry blocks.

That puts us a 2189, 61 points left. With that I can get 8 spearelves at have 5 points left over. 5 spears would give me 40 points left. Of course, If i didnt give the new sorceress her full magic item allocation then there could be more points true. Also, remember I am running with the ring of hotek on my CoK. I know my battleplan has them on the other side of the field to the sorceress, but will having 3 running around cause more trouble than its worth?

Rabidnid · Post by **Rabidnid** » Sat May 02, 2009 4:09 am

Dreadlord: He has AoD and the SDC at the moment, of which the SDC does nothing since his save can't be improved beyond 1+ His best base armour save in combat with CD will be 4+ for heavy armour and the SDC, but that could be improved with a shield and the effect of the SDC.

With the 1+ save from the AoD he will still get an atrmour save veruss most attacks, and then the ward on top of that. AoES plus full mundane is 50 points, which a gainst a flaming S-7 hit will provide no save at all. Against a standard S-5 attack in combat will provide a 6+ save and a 4+ regen, and against a standard S-3 attack will provide a 4+ save and 4+ regen.

Call me a cynic, but I don't see a lot of point to AoES unless it is on a mounted charachter with a shield where its basic save is 1+ or so.

As for the rest, the switch to BG is a good one if you keep the ring, or a sorc and another unit of harpies/DR, if you drop it and the champ on the CoK for heavier magic.

iLLiTHiD · Post by **iLLiTHiD** » Sat May 02, 2009 3:04 pm

Ah it looks like I had made some errors in my calculations..to a positive effect! Ha ha, I have some extra points left over 36 to be exact.

So I was thinking of either giving the CoK the standard of slaughter, or giving them the cold blood and giving the tower master a null talisman. Some extra magic protection for that unit which I know everyone loves to hate might be worth the while. And cold blood means I dont have to really leave it to chance for the turn I actually need to pull off a charge without a hiccup. Of course, slaugher banner owns hard and isnt 1 use only. Still, factoring in that games only last 6 turns each, a failed move due to stupidity could be game breaking. The CoK are nasty enough without the bonus....lol sounds like I've already made my mind up.

Rabidnid · Post by **Rabidnid** » Sat May 02, 2009 6:51 pm

iLLiTHiD wrote:Ah it looks like I had made some errors in my calculations..to a positive effect! Ha ha, I have some extra points left over 36 to be exact.

So I was thinking of either giving the CoK the standard of slaughter, or giving them the cold blood and giving the tower master a null talisman. Some extra magic protection for that unit which I know everyone loves to hate might be worth the while. And cold blood means I dont have to really leave it to chance for the turn I actually need to pull off a charge without a hiccup. Of course, slaugher banner owns hard and isnt 1 use only. Still, factoring in that games only last 6 turns each, a failed move due to stupidity could be game breaking. The CoK are nasty enough without the bonus....lol sounds like I've already made my mind up.

Your currently at 235 points, you can get 2 units of 5 naked CoKs for 270, or a unit of 5 naked CoKs and a chariot for 235 exactly. CoKs are very expensive for the damage they do. I regularly used mine as a firepower sink to draw enemy fire and attention. They can still hurt things without banners and the like, they just have to be a little more careful chhoooing targets.

iLLiTHiD · Post by **iLLiTHiD** » Mon May 04, 2009 1:31 pm

only issue with dropping the champ on CoK is thathe is the ring bearer for the ring of hotek. I figured a mobile user for the ring was best...prehaps it would be better on either the tower master or the dreadlord?

iLLiTHiD · Post by **iLLiTHiD** » Mon May 11, 2009 1:54 am

Still not sure if I should be giving ring of hotek to the CoK or to the BG. It would make more sense to have the ring on a more mobile unit, so that its aura can 1. keep away from my casters and 2. get enemy casters inside its range. I was considering the dreadlord, though that would take a revision of his magic item list, and that the ring is a talisman would mean no ward save, something I'm not too keen on.

Another question, do you rate the effet of ring of darkness for protecting a unit of BG? I was considering taking a master with the ring of darkness and a mundane set with shield to help buff its vunrabilities vs missile fire. The tower master would take a null talisman to help vs magic. Between the talisman and the Ring of darkness, i would hope that it would protect against what sems to be the most common counter to BG's, missile fire and magic.

Got to go out now, ill post a revised list later tonight with my proposed changes.

Rabidnid · Post by **Rabidnid** » Mon May 11, 2009 9:09 am

iLLiTHiD wrote:Another question, do you rate the effet of ring of darkness for protecting a unit of BG? I was considering taking a master with the ring of darkness and a mundane set with shield to help buff its vunrabilities vs missile fire. The tower master would take a null talisman to help vs magic. Between the talisman and the Ring of darkness, i would hope that it would protect against what sems to be the most common counter to BG's, missile fire and magic.

Got to go out now, ill post a revised list later tonight with my proposed changes.

I prefer a screening unit. You can get 10 spears for 70 points which will screen them for a couple turns, and redirect enemy to make them show the BG a flank with a little planning.

iLLiTHiD · Post by **iLLiTHiD** » Tue May 12, 2009 6:49 am

I was looking further at what I was trying to do with the Black Guard, and it seems to me that I was sinking more and more points into protecting it. I feel that prehaps I may be in error by trying to take the blackguard at all. True, the ASF BG combo is devistating, but it swallows up a large ammount of points to make it viable. So I've been looking at alternatives.

I consider my previous choice of executioners. Even without first strike, if they can pull off a flanking charge to support the spears, at strength 6 and the potential to add banner of murder, thats a whopping -4 to armour saves. This will destroy knight units utterly. Against lower protected armies, I can sub the banner of murder to a warbanner for extra resolution to help with SCR. Factor in the killing blow and rerolls from hatred, and I believe that they wont *need* a 2nd round in combat, the pain they bring will own whatever they touch, provided they get the charge off. I can forsee swarms or other annoying pests to try and hold this unit up, but thats why it will be placed between the 2 spear units.

So, with some adjustments, I found i had a base of 1994 points to build up to 2250. The executioners by themselves arnt enough to support both infantry blocks, so I felt that a chariot might do the trick. Chariots move at pace with infantry, yet deal insane impact hits. Having a chariot occupy the inner side of the anvil means that it is in a great position to charge any threats against the spears. Its also yet another target for enemy missile fire to be forced to choose between.

This leaves me with about 151 points. The three plans I had were
1. Add another chariot, add 2 more executioners and a banner
2.Add a master to ride the chariot. Items are either a) heavy armour, sea dragon cloak, enchanted shield, deathpiercer for 218 points
or b) armour of eternal servitude, sea dragon cloak, soulrender, lance and shield (uses great weapon if/when dismounted)
3.Add another chariot and buy some harpies or the 2 extra executioners.
4.buy another unit of 5 dark riders with muso, gives me 39 points left, for either a banner or more harpies.

I also realised that my sorcerers were overpriced on their points cost. One sorc stays wiht the spears with a scroll and either a sacrificial dagger or darkstar cloak. The mounted one rides behind the dark riders on the far right flank, with tome of furion and seal of ghrond. A loss of a scroll but a gain of more dispel dice is probably a better trade off.