Intersite Battle, Druchii turn 1

[The golden arrow]

Here is your first turn of the intersite battle against asrai.org

Please read his thread for additional information.
Intersite battle, any interest?


OK, here's your's and asrai.org's deployment. It doesn't match the image 100%, but hope it's ok.



If anything is unclear, don't hesitate to ask me.

Your spell rolls:
Sorceress 1: 3,6 (Crown of Taidron, Pit of Shades)
Sorceress 2 (tome): 2,3,4 (Creeping death, Crown of Taidron, Shades of Death)

You may change any to the first spell.


You rolled a 4 for first turn and they rolled a 2 so you get the first turn (you have no choice since you didn't tell me anything before).

That's it I guess, the power is yours.

[Kinslayer]

Can anyone take part in this? Right, I have a fair amount of battle experience versus the wood elves, though not as much as most members on here at using the dark elves. So, from what I can see, let us identify the main threats, for that is how I always start my turn. The treeman will dominate his flank if left unmolested, those things are damn hard to budge, especially if they throw Ariels Blessing onto it. Be wary of the wild riders behind the woods, they can charge straight through it! Their magic is pretty lame, and so she does not really pose much of a threat, but their Alter Nobles' are probably totting GWs and so need to be removed.

I say start movement by sending our five headed friend diagonally down past the hill. Keep it in cover behind the hill so it can not be charged, but ready to move out and attack the treeman with its flame attack next turn. Advance the chariot, witch elves and dreadlord on the other side, but do not go into charge range with the stuff behind the woods; we want the charge! Move the harpies in front of them to screen from shooting and/or draw a charge. Move the Black Guards up to support the Hydra, and bring the Dark Riders around onto the flank. In turns to come, they can get around the back of the enemy, avoiding the treeman, and hopefully pick off units from behind. Again, screen them with the other harpies. Crossbowmen should make for the hill, where the elevation will help them in turns to come. We certainly do not want the wood elf archers gaining purchase there...

Magic, really does depend on how you role in this phase. I'd go all out with attacks at the Alter Nobles, Treeman and Dryads. These are the three things you do not want reaching our line, so then fire at them too with whatever can in the Shooting Phase. I doubt there would be any combats this turn...

[Thanatoz]

First off, let's start by exchanging both Crown of Taidron results for Steed of Shadows.

I support Kinslayer in his movement, however, I suggest to send the Hydra with the WE and Chariot while crossing with the warriors to support the BG. The Flaming attack has too small a chance of wounding the treeman, and we want to use the breath weapon on the dryads later on. Second, we want our Dreadlord to actually be in range of steed of shadows next turn (no way in hell he's going to make it this turn). Third, Stubborn ItP BG coupled with the static resolution of the warriors will actually give us a chance against the wooden monstrosity.

Left harpies forward out of sight behind the woods on the left, to limit the wild riders.

Magic isn't going to do much, so I suggest Creeping Death on 2d6 first, then Pit of Shades on 4d6 vs the treeman. Hopefully that'll draw a scroll. But Creeping Death will only be effective vs the GG, so we need LoS for it, and we don't want that...

[The golden arrow]

Of course anyone can enter and share their ideas. The more the merrier

[Lakissov]

I haven't yet given the situation enough thought, but here are some initial ideas:

1. Change both crowns of taidron for Steed of Shadows - that's one thing that definitely needs to be done.

2. Our best chances to take out the treeman are the dreadlord and pit of shades. The chances for inflicting a certain number of wounds on the treeman by the dreadlord charging:
0: 0.5%
1: 1.7%
2: 4.2%
3: 8.2%
4: 12.4%
5: 15.8%
6+: 57.2%
Hence, I have the idea that it might be good to get the dreadlord into position for a steed of shadows charge into the treeman next turn. This would be best achieved if we steed of shadow him into the black guard this turn (then the dreadlord also won't have to take a terror test when charging). And this will most likely be allowed by the opponent, if we first move the sorceress with Pit of Shades into the position where she can cast the Pit on the treeman - the dice will be saved for the Pit.

=> hence, my first idea is to march the BG towards the treeman, peeking from around the hill (hence also getting soft cover from shooting), and reshuffling the sorceresses inside the unit - the one with Pit goes to the right corner, looking at the treeman, and the other one goes to the left, thus staying closer to he dreadlord. Then first the steed is cast, and then the Pit.

3. We don't fear the attack of the wild riders into our warriors, but if they attack witches, it could be bad (though not too much fear there either). Also, we fear their attack to a flank. So I'd use the chariot to protect the flank, positioning it so that the whole area ont he flank is in its LOS and reach - the wild rider can't flee, so won't go there if the chariot threatens that area. The alter highborn also fears the chariot, so he would be limited by this too.

4. It also looks like a good idea to protect our advancing warriors and witches from missile fire with harpies, so we can spare one unit for that. When postioning them, though, we have to be careful to not get them into the charge range of the wild riders - we don't want to flee with harpies yet. The other harpy unit get the excellent opportunity this turn to hide behind the hill, being able to hop over things, if they approach, and in general to be able to get anywhere in the center of the battlefield.

5. I also feel tempted to rush the right flank, marching with all units there, and also not forgetting to cover all areas where the alter noble could go.

These are my initial ideas, but I need to give them some thought, except the first idea, which I feel extremely confident about (swapping crown for steed)

[Thanatoz]

My guess is they have 3 dd, so they will be dispelling the steed and scrolling the pit, as they might expect the intentions of our dreadlord. Not bad to get rid of scrolls, but it will leave our dreadlord stranded for another turn. Still, it's the best option we have so far. We'll have to be careful not to move the dreadlord out of range though (it's 6", right?).

Wild Riders on the charge have S5 and cause fear, they probably have the warbanner, there's a good chance they'll break our witches if they charge, who lose frenzy and will be overrun unless we roll snake eyes. We must not let them in charge range! Perhaps we should let the hydra take the honours of leading the line, it can withstand the arrows and take the charge of anything fast! By marching the hydra and moving the rest normal distance, it should get a sufficient head start.

Like the plan for the BG, but I think the magic is going to bump, so we must have a back-up plan. Their 3 dice won't be enough to stop pit of shades, so they probably won't bother and use a scroll. Moving the dreadlord out of the spears behind the hill would not hinder the movement of the spears, and maybe they'll send something fast (like the warhawk riders) after it.

I would also not sacrifice a unit of harpies this turn, they'd need some good movement to come into half range (and thus gain S4 on their bows), and I think until then, we need to take our chances as once they come within 15", it'll be one modifier less to hit, and S4, and then we'll need the screen more.

Just my thoughts.

EDIT: I'd also rush the RXB to the hill, maybe the shades also (though it might be beneficial to wait a turn with them, as they have good cover and los), and one dark rider unit rushing down the flank. The other should turn (free reform!) and rush behind the army, as they're great for intercepting the fast stuff they're going to send our way (like wild riders, warhawks, etc.).

[Calisson]

The Golden Arrow, could you please start the thread with a link to the thread it is coming from?
You would mention:
Follow-up from => Intersite battle, any interest?
Thanks.

Otherwise, the thread is keeping its promises.
Long live Lakissov as D Captain! (and more...).

[Lakissov]

hm, good thoughts, Thanatoz

actually, now when I think about the best use for dark riders, I do agree that one unit might be more useful on the left flank, as there are so many wood elf flyers concentrated there.

also, you are probably right about the harpies

the main thing I would like to point is that we have to march with all our infantry; next turn we are surely going to get march-blocked, so it is better to cover some distance.

additionally, from the deployment of Asrai, I can say that they realy want to make use of their shooting - they have put all their dryads to the back, to provide space for their glade riders to shoot. => for us, it might be a good start of the battle to limit the efficiency of their shooting by advancing behind the hill and getting out into the open with all units at the same time in turn two.

the witches, likely, are doomed anyway, because they will be a tempting target for so many shooting units... it might be actually good to march them ahead full spead, provoking the alter highborn to use the hail of doom arrow (or whoever else carries this nifty thing).

[Brokenstone]

Just as a note, do we know their spells aswell? I am not well versed on Wood Elves, but I assume that once spells are rolled they will know what we have, and we should know what they are equipped with. Or is their magic not worth looking at?

Eager to see how it plays out though, if I think of any other stupid questions that may actually be helpful, I will fire them off.

[Xerasi]

Going with the idea of killing the treeman ASAP, why not consider doing the magic a bit differently?

Starting with a two dice PoD on the Pit sorc, forces the enemy to either attempt a dispell, or accept that we'll be getting an even stronger magic phase. Depending on the ammount of dice gained then going for either the Pit followed by Steed and another steed (if all cast successful they'd either be a treeman down, or have no magic defense). Or Pit and steed (as suggested).

An alternative for saving the witches could be revealing the assassin, and sending him off to join the witches (doubt that they'd follow by a wildrider attack if they knew that we'd get to strike first with quite a few attacks. This also presures there magic more, by using his cloak to steed the lord (would require that witches move a bit further towards the hill)

The Hydra can then screen them from most dmg

[Thanatoz]

I like the plan of revealing the assassin and rushing him to the witches. I think he needs the cloak on his own to make it there in time though.

I suggest not using the PoD on the Pit of Shades sorc though, because we can't get the Pit off if they dispel PoD. We'll have to cast PoD with the tome sorc, then cast steed with all dice gained. We then have 4 dice left either way to cast pit. We might then trigger the cloak if they still have 3 dd (if we rolled real bad) to draw some of those out, otherwise we'll attempt the pit first and finish up by using the cloak on either the assassin or the dreadlord.

[Xerasi]

My guess is that Pit of shades will be scrolled. Hence if it's stopped by using dices (on PoD) or by a Scroll makes little difference. Seeing there is a 2/3 chance for a Treeman getting killed by a successful pit (which more than likely requires an irresistible force), we might as well ensure that the Lord will hit the Treeman (in which case he will either destroy him in this turn or the next, and as a result gaining a 1+ AS (enough to withstand shooting). A 2 dice PoD would as a minimum allow 3x steeds if allowed through, and likely a 3 or 4 dice pit... Don't forget that the assassin is in the warrior unit, so would easily be able to jump to the witches, and could be standing so far out that it could send it's steed to the dreadlord.

Golden Arrow: Could you say if the dreadlord is within A) 30" of the treeman, and B) in an as direct line as possible towards the treeman within 10" of the hill... IE would he be able to pull the charge off with just one successful Steed of Shadows.

If not then we'd have to wait a round no matter what.

Theres several things that I don't understand/disagree with on deployment, so can't really give any good advice on how to move the rest of the units...

[Phoenix49]

@Xerasi :
Technically, you can just calculate the distance between the dreadlord and the Treeman using simple maths, but I dont want to say how many " it is becoz it might be considered against the rules/spoiler/not fair-play. After all, you're not really supposed to know/measure distances in the real game .

But just by looking at it, my guess is the DL is out of range.

I agree with the magic suggestions of Thanatoz.

For momevement, I would suggest rushing the DR along the flank since it's wide open for them.
Move the Crossbows with the Shades towards the hill, the Black guard in the direction of the treeman, and the rest of the army at the same pace, leaving the chariot a bit behind, towards the left side of the hill. Screen the harpies with BG/warriors, to be able to use them as screens in turn 2.

[Thanatoz]

My guess is that Pit of shades will be scrolled. Hence if it's stopped by using dices (on PoD) or by a Scroll makes little difference.

Disagree. Scrolls are limited. If we draw out a scroll, they won't have them next turns. Preferably they have no scrolls left by turn 3, when the magic really starts to make a difference and almost anything will be in range.

[The golden arrow]

Golden Arrow: Could you say if the dreadlord is within A) 30" of the treeman, and B) in an as direct line as possible towards the treeman within 10" of the hill... IE would he be able to pull the charge off with just one successful Steed of Shadows.

No I won't. Guessing distances is a big part of the game. My guess is that he is not in range though.

[Dalamar]

I find guessing range in the setting like this pretty unreasonable.

a) anyone with a graphics program can cover the map with a grid... and have every distance "guessed perfectly"

b) the mini battle program itself is rather inaccurate (unless you go to the pixel... then it's overdoing it)

but that's just me.

[The golden arrow]

Well obviously, but I will still not do any measurements for you (the work doesn't seem worth it really).

Still, you can do things however you want to....

[Lakissov]

All right, I have read the posts here and I have also had some time to consider the situation. Here is a plan I have come up with.

First of all, about the dreadlord and attempting to charge treeman in turn one: I don't think it's possible; the treeman is far away. However, we can get into a place where we have the option to charge him next turn.

Second, about revealing the assassin: this doesn't give us anything yet in this turn, as the enemy isn't able to charge any of our troops in this turn, even if we just march ahead with all troops. Also, we don't need the magical pressure of the assassin yet; hence, revealing the assassin means only giving information to the enemy (I assume that people from asrai.org are not watching out forum and looking at our plans, so I assume that they don't know where the assassin is and what we are trying to do in the long run).

Also, it seems almost 100% agreed by everyone that the right flank should be rushed (at least the shades and one DR unit). I'm still unsure whether it'd be good to get the second unit rushed too or to reposition it towards the center and left flank, where it will be able to protect our rear from flyers. I'd like to hear opinions on this.

Also, I guess that everyone agrees that we need to move the crossbowmen towards the hill, and the infantry forward, hiding behind the hill.

Here is a summary of the tentative plan so far:


Note: the Black Guard move so as to still have LOS to the treeman this turn with the right-most model. The sorceress with pit within the BG unit moves to replace that model, so that she'd have LOS to the treeman.

Note 2: dreadlord moves to the righmost edge of the warrior unit - this will allow him to redeploy to Black Guard next turn without problem.

Note 3: Witches march 9.9 inches; this will mean that the Glade Guard will be in long range even if they move 5" and shoot (see the grid I drew)

Note 4: Hydra is moved towards the left flank, hence being able to protect the warriors' flank from whoever in the next round (and it will be able to get to the very left next round too, protecting the witches' flank if needed)

Note 5: the chariot should be moved to protect the left flank from fast troops (especially alter highborn and wild riders). I have placed two lines showing where I want it to have LOS; this is deterministic enough to know how exactly to place the chariot (also, it apparently has enough movement to get there)

Harpies advance behind the other troops.

In the magic phase, the first casting could be Steed on the Tome sorceress with two dice (if not dispelled, she moves to the warriors unit, ready to cast magic missile at the dryads next turn). The second spell is Pit on the treeman with 4 dice. I expect to take out a scroll with it.

In the shooting phase, the chariot should try to shoot at the wild riders; I doubt that it reaches, but who knows.

The main idea behind the advance in one line: as long as the enemy can't go around our flanks, he can't combo-charge really well. So, if we advance as one line, we deny the enemy the possibility to get an upper hand over our units in CC. The weakest link in our line is the witches (no static CR, and die easily to CC attacks if charged) - hence, we should either screen them from charges with harpies, or cover up their potential failure with other units (e.g. a hydra).

---

So, I'd like to receive opinions from the rest of the participants of the thread - do you like the plan? What would you change and why?

PS:
One question to Golden Arrow - do I understand correctly that the hill is treated as open ground for movement purposes, as per the usual rules? The plan pretty much depends on this, and this was also an implicit assumption behind deployment.

[The golden arrow]

Yep, the hill is open ground.

[Calisson]

1. Shooting comparison.
Sure both sides are melee-oriented.
But let's not forget the shooting phases.
We have 15 MXB (10 of them able to shoot but out of range), 6 shades and an almost negligible COC (plus hydra short-range breath).

The woodies have 2 x 10 GG plus 4 Warhawks (and the treeman close range weapon).

2. Moving our shooters.
This turn, the MXB cannot move 5" and get in 24" range, so they can well double-march and forget the shooting.
I support the move towards the hill from where the 2nd row will be able to shoot.

Shades cannot move 5" and get in 24" range either.
They could well move, they will loose no shooting.

3. Woodies' expected shooting.
However, I'm afraid to see both GG move 5" forwards, and shoot 10 arrows each at 30" range with no penalty for moving.
With only -1 penalty for range (or -2 aiming at skirmishers), that leaves 10 hits (7 on shades), expecting either
- 5 dead WE
- 3 dead warriors or shielded MXB
- 3/4 dead shades.
With all my sympathy to the female psycopaths (I don't want feminists to yell at me), loosing WE or warriors is not a big deal.
However, I would be mad at loosing most of the pricey GW shades for no reason.

4. Adaptation to our movement.
For this reason, if shades are to move at all, that should be behind the MXB.

If doing so, then the most rewarding shooting for WE (woodies) will be the WE (witchies).
We could protect them easily by moving them closer to the hill, and having the hydra presenting its side, so that the hill in continuity with the hydra cover most of the WE, if not all of them.


5. DR.
I support the idea to cover the rears with one DR unit, rather than having 2 DR units facing (!) the treeman and risking glade shooting for nothing.

6. Positioning on the hill.
Traditionally I view hills as movement hamperers for infantry. Only the hydra is unaffected and it is the only one not to plan to move there.

I'd like to hear from The Golden Arrow how a movement on the hill's slopes is treated (i.e. is it 1" or 2" consuming double-movement?).

In the contemplated moves, occupying the hill top will grant us one additional SCR if attacked, but that would incite us to wait for the charge, which is nice only as long as we have a cutting edge in magic/shooting. We have it in magic but should not forfeit it for shooting.
Are we going to wait on top of the hill?

Another concern is that the hill might not be large enough to accomodate simultaneously BG, warriors and MXB.
If it is the case, the MXB will not be able to shoot.

So the strategic question for Lakissov is:
- are we going to stay on the top of the hill and wait there for a WE charge
=> our WE will be shot at, and our MXB will not shoot easily.

or

- are we just moving across the hill
=> we're slowed down, it becomes difficult to maneuvre, in the meantime the Woodies can outmaneuvre us,
=> but the MXB get a great shooting position... until they are charged by flyers.

or

???

[Lakissov]

As far as I understood from Golden Arrow, the hill doesn't hamper the movement in any way. Hence, the tactical idea for moving behind the hill is to get protetion from shooting (I'd prefer not to lose any BG, and warriors neither, because warriors are not ItP - losing some witches is not a big deal, though). The way I view it is that next turn, our BG and warriors march ahead at full speed, while the crossbows , having the way freed for them after this march, go on top of the hill (without marching), from where they would be able to shoot. This way, we get our combat infantry into charge range of the enemy with only one round of shooting.

[Thanatoz]

Agreed that perhaps a subtler approach is needed with the shades, and they should be marched behind the crossbows.

However, it seems logical only one unit of GG would shoot at the shades (the other one will not be in range with all models when wheeling) , translating in 1/2 kills on the shades.

[Xerasi]

I second the idea of splitting the DR up.

I disagree with Carlisson about hiding the shades, they'll simply be of no use if not moved forward ( other than taking table quarters). I'd rather see them crippled protecting our troops, than nothing... (they can then proceed to be guards for the sorcs).

I'd move one of the harpy units up so it has LOS through the WE and Hydra, but only at a very specific angle, allowing only one or two shots to be fired at it. If they move their GG up determined to be in "short range" (which they won't be), the harpies can charge the following turn only recieving a single shot as a stand and shoot reaction. If they flee we've saved quite a few troops, and have a possibility of scaring them off and pulling troops out of their line...

I believe the RXBs should be possitioned so they angle up facing the direction that the arrow has, so in the following turn the BG can march past them, and they can take a 5" move to have the rear rank on top of the hill, and shoot.

I'd likely also have the flank DRs further towards the flank, to ensure that they are outside GG shooting.

Now my only problem is that as far as I can see (an calculate) the wildriders will be able to charge the witches, and have a total of 4 riders in btb. on average they'd kill roughly 3 witches with only 1 striking back (worst case 'ndd corner to corner). theyd loose by 3-4, overun and have a tactical wheel on harpies...

pushing the champion out to one of the 3 models closest to the left, an the assassin as the 4th, should ensure that any charge they make would more likely than not conclude with their side loosing (droping a man and a half to the assassin, and thus avering 2 ish wounds)...

Thus I suggest that either their possition is considered (although this slows our advance), or the assassin is revealed (to protect the witches)

[Druchiishootlord]

Here's my three ideas on the movement of the DR:

First idea is to keep both units together and use them to force the action on that flank. This gives us a way to press the advantage on that flank by having the WE player either keep units back to protect the rear of the army and the soft shooting units that they have. Or we use this as a feigned move and use their speed in the next to reposition for support of the infantry. What I would not do is move the DR unit closest the trees full speed to put them at that risk.

Though with keeping a unit of DR back to protect the rear of the formation I would move the unit that is in the farthest corner. I say this because even though the unit behind the woods would risk being fired at next turn they would be a better position to support the shades with missile fire. With the superiority in the shooting phase I feel that concentrating fire from specific areas such as this and attempting to pin the WE into their corner with possible panic checks might best help us with isolating their more dangerous threats.

The third option that I would suggest against the most is keeping both in the reserve protecting the rear of the army with the 4 fastest elements of the army on our right flank. This is also a consideration especially if, and I agree with Xerasi's calcuation that the Wild Riders would have their charge.

Other than that I fallow suit with all of the suggested actions of the phase.

[Lakissov]

Now that Xerasi brought this up, I do agree that the witches can be charged by Wildriders. This means that the plan has to be changed a bit. We reveal the assassin in the start of the phase and get him into witches, who move the same distance as initially planned (because the assassin just needs to touch the unit in order to get into it, so his march of 10 inches will be more than enough, especially because we reveal him in the left-most angle).

About the positioning of RXB, again, Xerasi got it 100% right - this is also exactly what I meant: next turn, BG get out of the way, and RXB position themselves on the hill, ready to shot at woodies.

As for the DR - I am still unsure. I'll list the main feature of both solutions:
1. Split up
- denies warhawks and eagle the ability to get to the rear of our troops
- weakens the right flank by 10 shots each turn
2. Don't split up
- lets warhawks and eagle get into the rear of our army
- makes the right flank 10 shots stronger in the shooting phase

So, what is more important: denying the ability to get to the rear or strengthening the shooting phase on the right flank?

10 shots, hitting on 6s, will have the following odds to inflict wound on Glade Guards:
0: 41.9%
1: 38.1%
2: 15.6%
3+: 4.4%

When hitting on 5s (in close range):
0: 16.2%
1: 32.3%
2: 29.1%
3: 15.5%
4+: 7.0%

So the shooting component is not as negligible as it might seem at first glance. On the other hand, having some eagle in the rear, ready to charge us and make us pursue backwards is not a good thing either (and that is a feat that can be pulled off by woodies with the eagle).

As far as I can say, this is the only question so far that is not decided. So, any more opinions on the issue (or changed opinions)?