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DE starter setup 
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Corsair

Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 10:45 pm
Posts: 82
Hello guys, Im new to both, warhammer and this forum. So I hope I wont annoy you with my stupid questions :).

My friends and I started Warhammer last month or so, buying armies, learning the rules and preparing for our first matches. We plan on making hard lists. I really would like to know what you guys would advice me to buy next.

I already got:
Some characters
1 Dragon
20 RxBs
10 Dark Riders
5 Shades
6 Cold One Knights
1 Hydra
2 RBT

I guess black guards are the way to go. What about witch elves? executioners? Should I get more models of the units I already have? Like more COK? What about a Manticor?


Tue May 05, 2009 11:03 pm
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Malekith's Best Friend
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You have a very solid basis and could play with just what you have.

Special infantry choices are the next choices I think. Black Guard are an obvious choice if you are going for a hard list. Witches are harder to run and a little more situational than the black guard, but I use them with success in place of black guard. Executioners are very situational. I would avoid them until you know what you are doing and need them to fill a specific role in your army.

Harpies are another useful troop choice. DR do much the same thing, but a unit of 5 or 6 harpies is never a bad idea in any list.

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Tue May 05, 2009 11:12 pm
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Corsair

Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 10:45 pm
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I already bought 10 Daemonettes for nice harpy convertions. I still need to get some wings...damn:[. Any tips on this topic are welcome, too :).

So how should I play the BG? Is 10 or 15 models fine? Or should I aim for a big, solid block - like 20/25?


Tue May 05, 2009 11:28 pm
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Trainee Warrior
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Being stubborn and immune to psychology troops they will not need static combat resolution from ranks but rather a wider frontage 6-7 per rank
i run them 6x3 or 7x2 with always strike first banner and ring of hotek on the champion of course :D

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Tue May 05, 2009 11:36 pm
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Corsair

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What about a cauldron :)?


Tue May 05, 2009 11:48 pm
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Trainee Warrior
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Try some battles without it first then use it to give ward saves on units you think will die or Killing blow to multiple attack units ---corsairs, witch elves and blackguards :D

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Wed May 06, 2009 12:29 am
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Corsair
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I support Rabidnid's advice. below, find my comments on the usefulness for a beginner of the troops (criteria: easy to understand and effective).

1 Dragon => excellent in 2K games.
What about a Manticore? => more difficult to play.
=> COB: later, especially if you want to play with Execs, WE, AHW corsairs.
Some characters => make sure you have at least one scroll caddy. Otherwise, warriors (on CO, DS or footed) & assassins are fine, DH I don't know.
Characters are useful but not essential for DE (like everything else), so the scroll caddy can be your general and only character, if you like.
Only the sorceress on CO must be avoided.
If you want more magic, get more magic. Dark Lore is potent.

20 RxBs => excellent, make them 2 x 10 with shield & muso.
10 Dark Riders => excellent, make them 2 x 5 with muso. MXB if you like.
=> Spears only in large blocks, if you like infantry. Not mandatory.
=> corsairs either in large blocks with the SSS (and preferably if you have a COB), or in small units with RHB, but it is not obvious to play.
=> 5 harpies are very good to annoy the enemy. Not very potent, though, but really useful.

5 Shades => excellent, either "naked" for shooting or with GW for a real threat (especially with an assassin).
6 Cold One Knights => excellent, give them FC.
more COK? => really not. Try first a COC insteaed of a 2nd unit of CO. And do not make the unit larger.
witch elves? => more difficult to play
executioners? => very fragile. IMO worth only with a COB.
=> COC is sturdy and potent. A good bargain. However, it is very slow.
=> BG in unit of 15 with FC and ASF banner is easy to play and powerful. You'll need a screen (harpies, rhb corsairs). Or you can take two small units.

1 Hydra => outstanding, very resistant.
2 RBT => excellent.


more models of the units I already have? => no, unless you really want to make another unit.
The magic of DE is to learn to combine the strengths of several units.
It is nicer to have a great variety of units rather than dull lists with single repeated choices.

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Wed May 06, 2009 8:51 am
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Arnold Layne
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There ought to be some words of warning in this thread. Dragon is excellent in 2k games, yes, but it's a big nasty game winning model. If it doesn't win the game for you, you most likely lose. This does not mean that it has to destroy your anemy single handed; it could mean that your enemy wastes six turns trying to kill the Dragon while your Knights and Hydra take them down.

The Manticore is more difficult because it has no armour and can be frenzied. Without armour, you need to manoeuvre it carefully to keep it alive, and then it might just dash off and do something silly without your permission. So it is of course much cheaper than a Dragon, even though it isn't much less dangerous to your enemy.

RXBs - near impossible to say anything bad about them. The only thing is against some enemies, those with high T, good saves, they will under-achieve. You just got to adjust your expectations in such situations, and then adjust you plans accordingly. If they can't shoot your enemy down, they can still get a flank charge, or be used as a sacrificial unit, or a screen, whatever you like. With their shields up they can be surprisingly difficult to get rid of.

Dark Riders - well now, it depends what you mean to do with them. If you wish to use them as a purely sacrificial unit, then you leave all upgrades behind. For all other purposes, I'd say take the bows and a muso. Bows for psychological effect; people hate being shot at, and only the steeliest foes can find it in their hearts to ignore Dark Riders in my experience. And the guy who's shooting, magicking or charging your Dark Riders most likely isn't shooting or charging your big monsters, or your expensive deadly special choice infantry. When you're getting near you points limit, here's one place where you can save some points if you need them.

Shades - since you already have some Riders and are on the way to getting Harpies, I'd say these guys will want their greatweapons. Their shooting really isn't that scary, to those who know, but like Dark Riders, it's really really annoying. With their greatweapons, though, they can put in quite a nasty charge. You don't want to put them in combats that won't be won in the first turn - in round two most anyone can kill them.

Knights - we love them and we hate them. One of the cheapest heavy cav units in the game, yet also one of the most dangerous. Seems kinda broken, but it's the stupidity that does it. They're still our most expensive troops, and it hurts to lose them, doubly so when they stumble forward and lose themselves. You can mitigate this by giving someone in the unit the Crimson Death, or the Hag Graef banner. If you feel inclined to use the Hydra Banner, use it here. Both riders and mounts get the extra attack, and it works wonders. Of course, you need a BSB, and then your unit begins to get expensive...

The Khainite troops need very careful play. Game winners if you get it right, expensive flops if you don't. They're both fragile, both expensive, and enemies just loooove to shoot them. Both need to get the charge to win. The Witches don't really need the Cauldron, just good screening so that they charge only when you want them to. The Execs mostly will need the Cauldron for the extra attack, or else they don't hit quite hard enough, get attacked back, and being a small and fragile unit generally, will ten to get overwhelmed. They rely on active combat resolution, so give it them with Cauldron. Without the Cauldron, they'll do ok as a flanking unit. A plan that involves these units succeeding involves Harpies and Dark Riders dying to set up a favourable charge, usually. And to keep them from getting shot at too much, by getting shot at themselves.

Chariots are slow, but not much slower than your infantry. They work best combo-charging with infantry, so it's ok that they're slow. In such a situation, the Chariot provides your active CR, the infantry your static CR, and together thy pretty generally run over the top of most things. Trouble is, like COK, for all their danger, they're a relatively cheap chariot because of stupidity. You'll love them and hate them.

Black Guards are one unit that really does do exactly what it sez on the box. They stop your enemies' charge in most cases, and in some cases will even rout it. If you can get your Black Guards to hold an enemy in place, you can put your Execs or Riders or Crossbows into the flank, chariots too [though they aren't US5 unless a character rides].

Hydra and RBT reliable choices. Both are flexible and dangerous, and can afford to be lost, the RBTs because they're not so expensive, and Hydras because it takes so much to bring them down. Whatever killed you Hydra didn't kill your Khainites.

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Wed May 06, 2009 2:25 pm
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Shade

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Stupid Knights aren't so bad, there are a few things you can do to fix this.

First of all, NEVER deploy them directly behind something. Screening is important, but one failed idiot check and your whole flank can grind to a halt. Read the rules for stupidity, there is some tricky stuff in there, especially the part where failed checks make you ItP, so you can't flee from a charge.

CoKs are, in general, pretty slow for heavy cav. You get the 3d6 for pursue and that's about it. Battle plans that rely on CoKs racing up the flank or otherwise crossing the board quickly to engage and pressure the enemy have one fatal flaw, one failed idiot check and you loose 3/4 of your movement for that turn and any control over where you go. In general, it can be best to keep you knights close to your battle line and always in tandem with something else, a Hydra for a fast flank or warriors for a solid advance. Hugging the edge of the board can help if you have DRs and Harpies to help escort you. Remember, having to charge the front of something isn't so bad if turning to face you knights means your enemy opens his flank to something else. Tight battle lines make strong armies stronger.

Your Hydra can be all the fast assault you need, the best "free radical" we have. Knights, in a lot of ways aren't much faster than chariots, they just bring more to the fight.

I find that here is where Harpies become invaluable. I like to have at least one unit available as a "wing" support for my knights. Again, stupidity is bad, but it happens at the start of your turn so having a unit of fliers available to jump in front to redirect if you fail can be the difference between loosing you knights or regrouping and rescuing your battle plan.

If you haven't figured it out by now, I really like knights. But that has a lot to do with playing Wood Elves for so long and never having access to them. I've put a lot of thought into making these ones work.

About Shades.

One thing that I've been playing around with is a Complimentary Shade build. i.e. One large unit of 8 or 9, or even 10, w/wo a Blood Shade, with Great Weapons. At BS 5, BS6 for the Blood Shade, larger units can be a more reliable fire base than RxBs since, when double tapping, to-hit penalties can rack up fast. 8 - 9 shades will hit just as often as, if not more than, RxBs, but are more maneuverable and, with GWs, can be a great combat support unit as well.

In addition to this I take a naked unit of 5 for 80 pts who can scout, since the other unit almost never can, march block and warmachine/mage hunt. i even like to put a Rending Star Assassin in the smaller unit for a more imediate threat and try to get him to the larger unit to boost them and leave what's left of the smaller to sacrifice. It's a very specific tactic, but it can be fun, for mobility's sake. This could work well in conjunction with a Dragon, some knights, a Hydra and some Harpies.

Those are just some more thoughts. Otherwise, I agree completely with what everyone else has said. If you go infantry, i would suggest dual chariots. I'm learning to love them.

Also, If a hard list is what you want, don't fall into the trap of maxing out characters. I did, and I gotta say, the troops are just too good to pass up and characters will soak up points like a sponge. I think the Dragon is your best bet, although I'm in love with the Lvl4 on peg and Lvl2 support, but that's sort of advanced, tactically challenging play.

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Wed May 06, 2009 3:42 pm
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Corsair

Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 10:45 pm
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Thanks for all your advices. I learned a lot just by reading that :). Ill let you guys know what Ill expirience.


Thu May 07, 2009 1:52 pm
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