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Using ASF Executioners (BSB Hag included) 
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Assassin

Joined: Mon May 22, 2006 2:13 am
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I've recently been inspired to write a list with the ASF BSB Hag inside a unit of Executioners( See army list forum for whole list). Now I know that given the cauldron blessing these troops will be all but unstoppable but I'd like to know if anyone has used this unit and to what effect.

Possible problems for this setup are vulnerabilities to ranged damage and also being frenzy baited. I'd like to know what other peoples solutions are but just off hand a unit of RHB corsairs seems like a good way to limit the damage from both sources.

Any other sneaky tactics or suggestions to make this unit work?


Mon May 11, 2009 5:30 am
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Noble
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I used a 17 strong executioner unit, with the Banner of murder, led by a hag grief death hag. Accompanied by a cauldron. I used it in a tournament and it goes through chaos knights like butter!!

Screened by 10 rpx men.

However all of my opponents are extremely aware of the unit and will avoid it. and try to kill it with ranged attacks.

try to keep te ring of hotec close by the unit.


Mon May 11, 2009 7:14 am
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Noble
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I only used this once vs Khorne WoC with devastating effect.
Like Zenith said like a hot knife through butter.
I would advise to put a champion in there to avoid getting the bsb challenged.

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Mon May 11, 2009 12:59 pm
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Sounds nasty!

You could try taking a Cauldron for a extra attacks? 200pts but it's able to buff other parts of your army (ward saves?) during the early stages of the game...

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Mon May 11, 2009 4:04 pm
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Take an unit of execs, add the Death Hag with the ASF banner, add a cauldron, and let the hostile 20-strong temple guard block (including slann) charge the 8 executioners that are left. Result: 12 dead temple guard and no attacks back...

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Tue May 12, 2009 10:15 am
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Assassin
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Ehakir wrote:
Take an unit of execs, add the Death Hag with the ASF banner, add a cauldron, and let the hostile 20-strong temple guard block (including slann) charge the 8 executioners that are left. Result: 12 dead temple guard and no attacks back...

A unit like the ASF Executioners is VERY vulnerable to magic. The inability to take Null Talismans (or place a character in there with access to Null Talismans) really affects how you have to use these guys to avoid getting splattered. Staring down this big, bad unit of Temple Guards isn't really the best way of using them, really. You're forgetting about the main threat, which isn't the Temple Guard, but the Slann hidden inside. Also, if the Lizard player takes Chakax (or a champion), it may be harder than otherwise anticipated, not to mention that the chance of breaking them is very low since they're immune to psychology (with a Slann) and stubborn. This will leave time for surrounding support units to flank charge you and beat you through sheer combat resolution.

But the main issue isn't so much just facing Lizardmen, it's the severe lack of defense for this unit. Unless you have a character or unit champion with the Ring following closely behind and/or have a scroll caddy ever at the ready, things may be quite troublesome.

I suppose that it may work out if you take a Supreme Sorceress and a Sorceress, and go with medium magic. Having 2 character slots taken already by the Death Hag and the Cauldron limits what you can do with your other slots to avoid being overpowered in the magic phase. Let's face it, everybody and their neighbors are gonna be gunning at this unit. While this approach could work, it will be very, very expensive.

Now, having said that, this unit rocks!


Tue May 12, 2009 1:57 pm
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Brolock
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The biggest problem is that once your opponent sees the Hag BSB, they'll know exactly what is in that unit. Its not something that can really be hidden well, because there is no other reason to take a Hag BSB in an Executioner unit. That being said. Harpy screens are a cheap way to prevent the unit from being shot or magicked for the most part.

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Tue May 12, 2009 6:46 pm
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Noble
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Of course they know, you have to screen them till they get close enough.
And from that moment on it's charge or get charged, you are messed up anyway.

Maybe the exec burger (I think by Calisson) is more viable. Taking two units of 7 each and use them as flankers to a unit of spears or BG.

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Tue May 12, 2009 7:20 pm
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Some good points here, I agree with Loki that it is pretty transparent what the unit is. Anybody with any experience against Dark Elves will know about the ASF banner and the potential combo with the cauldron. So I guess the trick here is that since you know your opponent knows about the power in this unit you have make sure that he doesn't avoid it all game. The way to do that is to either have other dangerous threats in the army to distract him or using our own support troops to eliminate his ASAP to clear the way.

With a relatively high movement rate we should be able to close on the enemy quite quickly and enemy march blockers should have a very hard time doing their job due to our own support troops.

Another question should be asked: which army/character setup would be better to best use this unit? (Both builds assumed to have a Cauldron and a BSB Hag). Is it the all combat approach with the ring as magic defense and possibly a scroll caddy or would it be better to go magic heavy with a level 4 and a level 2 sorceress? Both have their advantages and disadvantages, myself I prefer the combat approach but I'd like to hear other opinions as well.


Tue May 12, 2009 10:58 pm
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This is an extremely potent unit when combined with a ASF Death Hag. If you throw in the cauldron as well, they are perhaps our nastiest combat unit. That said, your opponents will take steps to neutralize them quickly. Be aware that they aren't immune to psych so do stand a chance of panicking occasionally. Also, they fall quickly to concentrated missile fire.

In opposition to all of the naysayers in the thread, I will say that unless you play a list regularly against a set group of opponents, many people don't plan for this contigency. If you field this unit alongside black guard, your opponents will almost always think the black guard are ASF. So, if you are a tournament goer, this unit is very handy as it will trash just about everything out there in combat.

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Wed May 13, 2009 1:47 am
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Trainee Warrior

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Not if there is a Hag BSB they won't, because as was said, there is no other reason to take the hag BSB and stick it in the execs. Any other combo is foolish and this is well known. BG don't benefit from ASF nearly as much as execs do, because black guard only need ASF once against 95% of opponents, and that is if they get charged. With a 10" charge, this is mitigative in many cases.

Execs NEED ASF, as their low attack numbers mean that if they attack on their own, their chances of blending straight through are somewhat small and they will need asf in the successive rounds. BG normally don't.


Wed May 13, 2009 3:13 pm
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Executioner

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Newbie question here...Is the ASF banner more devistating then say a hydra banner in this set up?

Also, why use a hag over a master who isn't subject to frenzied and could take a lot of defense? is it just for all the extra attacks?

I am really interested in this set up as a WoC player invited me to run a game and I have never played against them. (New to WHF)

Thanks,

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Wed May 13, 2009 3:25 pm
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The ASF banner is better than the hydra banner as charging is less of a issue and with the cauldron to boost them it does effectively the same job.

WoC are tough in the front but they lack skirmishers and fliers so DE's can get around them. The ring of hotek is amazing against them as they tend to go moderate magic to magic heavy especially with gateway which the ring can effectively stop.

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Wed May 13, 2009 3:31 pm
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Assassin

Joined: Mon May 22, 2006 2:13 am
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Too Cold wrote:
Newbie question here...Is the ASF banner more devistating then say a hydra banner in this set up?

Also, why use a hag over a master who isn't subject to frenzied and could take a lot of defense? is it just for all the extra attacks?

I am really interested in this set up as a WoC player invited me to run a game and I have never played against them. (New to WHF)

Thanks,



Well you have to use a hag in this case because of the Khainite rule, non-khainite characters cannot join khainite units so that leaves the master unable to join a unit of executioners.

And the ASF banner is probably much better here in this case because the caudron can bless the execs to give the +1 attack anyway and because execs are much more effective when they actually get to strike before getting cut down. (not being sarcastic just simple truth)


Concerning the issue of the transparency of this combo, what if you had your execs and your blackguard right next to each other and started the hag off with the BG? This could confuse your opponent because its probably not been done before and they would not know what to expect. Additionally when the battle lines close the hag could jump over and join the execs and let the slaughter begin :twisted: Would this work or would the crazyness of warhammer make this too unreliable to depend on?


Last edited by Entreri bloodletter on Wed May 13, 2009 5:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Wed May 13, 2009 5:03 pm
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Warrior

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Many wouldn't use a Hag over a Master, but since execs are Khainite they can't be joined by non-Khainite characters. So you have to use a Hag BSB in a unit of execs if you want them to have ASF.


Wed May 13, 2009 5:09 pm
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Executioner

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Awe... I did read that rule in my codex...I completely forgot about it. Khainite and non-Khainite unit rules.

So would a hag BSB w/ hydra banner in the unit plus a cauldron attack bonus be an over priced unit for the 3x attacks over x2 with ASF? Am I relying on KB with this tactic? The BoM helps a little but they still have a great armour saving throw.

That would open up the cauldron to possible bless the ward save or another unit entirely like say the BG right next to them say with KB if thats the tactic... that would give both units 2attacks ea w/ KB ... I dono !conf!

I know my questions are newbie questions but I am really wanting to kick the W.o.C. players "back side" and I know my list and tactics are crucial against these tough bastages that hit like dump trucks...

Thanks for the response folk...

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Wed May 13, 2009 10:18 pm
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TooCold,

I'm very new too and looking forward to trying this combo (once I get my Cauldron shipment, which could take a while).

The problem with Executioners is their Great Weapon. If you didn't charge, you will be hitting last no matter what... so if you have 1 or 5 attacks, probably none of your guys will be fighting back.

The ASF with the Cauldron's extra attack gives you 2 attacks per Executioner, but you attack first, even when charged, so very few of your opponents will be hitting back with a ST6 hit and the additional Armour Piercing that the Banner of Murder will provide (that's a -4 to saves).

Without the ASF, you will have 3 attacks only when charging, and if you get charged the unit will perish very soon.

That's how I see it. Thanks everyone, I look forward to more input into this combo.

Thanks,
Rafa.

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Thu May 14, 2009 6:27 am
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Well if you go for the S4 Killing blow with the hand weapons of the Executioners it might be better to give them +1 Att instead of ASF. But why would you want to have so much overkill in a unit (3 S6 KB att/model) if you can field them 7 wide incl. death hag for a whopping 13 ASF WS5 S6 Hatred KB attacks + 7-9 ASF WS6 S4-6 Hatred attacks? You would probably not need another 7 attacks to this... hopefully

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Thu May 14, 2009 5:32 pm
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Trainee Warrior

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I have a 20 man exec unit wiht champ BSB death hag ASF banner, Then a cauldren a 24 man corsiar unit with lord and asassin. give the corsairs killing blow and the asassin the killing blow ability. the people in my club hate both units both can do kiling blow and banner of murder on the corsiars and the amount of attacks they get is amazing. I then have a hydra two bolt throwers sorcerous and 10 man crossbow unit large block of spears and a hydra

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Tue Jun 09, 2009 9:50 pm
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well i run my exe'x with an assassin, tooled up for CC. so even if ya get charged he should kill a couple of models, leaving a few execs alive to attack back with.

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Wed Jun 10, 2009 10:43 am
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To be honest, I'm finding that running an assassin in a unit of executioners makes it such that they are usually able to chew through almost anything on their own - without the ASF banner or cauldron blessing. The reason this has been working for me is that adding 5-7 ASF attacks from the assassin is usually able to wipe out 2/3 of the attacking capability of my opponents - I might lose an exec or two to retaliation, and then the rest do the job. You can't run them as a unit of 7 - you need a rank, but so far it has worked quite well.

Combine it with a Hydra, Black Guard, and Cold One Knights, and I find that usually my opponents have more than enough to worry about and tend to disregard the execs. Instead they concentrate on the CoK and Hydra.

I have to say that the real superstar of the army for me has consistently been the cauldron of blood, because the benefits it can bestow on everything in range. Everything becomes a threat when it can suddenly gain killing blow, a ward save, or an additional attack.


Wed Jun 10, 2009 3:27 pm
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I took a similar unit in my Temple list. Of course, there were 26 execs and Crone was in the unit . . . along with Tullaris. I used this list in a tournament to devastating effect against all but one opponent. I screened the execs with witches for the first couple turns, then let the execs open up.


Wed Jun 10, 2009 11:39 pm
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