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D.R.A.I.C.H. - Druchii medium cavalry. The DR with shields. 
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1. Warning: think twice before using that unit .
If DR are hardly ever seen with a shield, it is for a good reason: most DE players consider that they are not worth the pts.
The reason is because S-DR (Shielded Dark Riders) loose the “fast cavalry” rule, which is probably DR’s best asset.
In this thread, you'll find another reason: you need many shielded DR to hope to become effective.

With this thread, I don’t try to advocate the use of shielded DR. I will not myself invest the money and time required.
What I want to do is to examine honestly what are their qualities and how to make the best use of them, in order to help anyone who wishes to give a try.
In order to write the thread, I summed up (and sometimes paraphrased) several older threads on the topic, in which many D.netters expressed their opinions, which were very often negative. This said, I will now concentrate more on the positive aspects.


2. Characteristics, compared to DR.
A shield is bound to be useful 1 out of 6 armour rolls, preserving the life of a 17 pts model for a mere additional 1 pt.
The cost is 1 pt, the benefit is 17/6= 2.8 pts. A bargain! All the more since DR are often shot at, spelled at and seen in melee!
Beware: each wound taken still costs a lot, this unit is not to be used as a shield for other units! This unit is worth screening and should rather flee than accept an uneven combat, in order to fight another day.

With the shield, DR loose the rule “fast cavalry”, so they become tremendously different from unshielded DR. And they should be played differently! DR vs S-DR should be considered as different as spear warriors vs RXB warriors.

RXB are not interesting at all for S-DR: the unit cannot double-march and shoot, it does not shoot at 360°, the unit is not nimble enough to get in position to shoot without risking to be charged or shot, and the cost of each shot is prohibitive.
In the rest of the article, I will not consider anymore RXBs.

S-DR don’t have the exceptional mobility of DR. Instead of reforming at will, they have to wheel. They are not able to squeeze between enemy’s units. They can flee if charged, sure, but they cannot move after rallying.

The most interesting difference is probably that S-DR get rank bonuses. In order to get actual rank bonuses, 10 of them are required, but loosing just 1 would suffice to loose the advantage, so you should rather take at least 15 of them. A smaller unit would be better off with no shield but with the fast cavalry agility.

What S-DR have in common with DR is the double-movement / charge at 18”.
The other common characteristic is two attacks per model, one being S4 on the charge. They will actually kill some foes, however, often they will get a low or negative ACR (active Combat Resolution), even if S-DR are slightly better protected than DR.

This is why the rank bonuses are important! While DR are limited to easy charges, S-DR can be set up to charge frontally the largest units. Their exceptional speed allows them to be quite sure to get the charge. Their ACR will not suffice usually, but they can get an effective SCR (Static Combat Resolution) in order to win any combat on the charge.

Final thoughts:
S-DR are core, so they fill in a minimum core requirement.
S-DR are hardly ever seen (maybe for some good reason!); so an additional advantage is that the opponent is not prepared to meet that unit. Surprise! :o


3. Specialized use: fast SCR provider.
S-DR are the best assault core unit. They are not as cost-effective as infantry, but they are the only core troops who can charge and expect to win against most opponents. However, they lack of punch in combat and need SCR.

S-DR in a big block (4 ranks & full command) will win all their charges against any characterless unit! Expect a margin of 1 or 2 CR, against either horde or elite units or monsters alike, not taking into account numeric superiority, as long as there is no nasty character inside – which can be compensated by adding our own nasty characters within or alongside the S-DR. With maxed SCR, they should be able to charge even HE spears and ethereal units!

This unit is the fastest hitter we can have, save Manti & Dragon. S-DR are the only troops who can provide a real threat at 18” distance, therefore providing an excellent likelihood of getting the charge, contrary to COK who charge at 14”… when they are not stupid.

They can charge alone, or they can support a charge from another unit lacking SCR.

The risk is to remain in prolonged fights, because they would present a very large flank to the enemy. In their use, they look like a “lite” Bret lance: almost guaranteed to get the charge, but rather cumbersome to move, and presenting a large flank.

In case they were flank-charged by a dragon, they need all the SCR they can get, but could well survive and win!

Our three cavalry are as follows:
DR are light cavalry, polyvalent, useful for side-charges only or charging light foes, besides other uses.
S-DR are medium cavalry, specialized in charges, counting on SCR to win melees even in frontal charge against any foe.
COK are heavy cavalry, specialized in melees, counting on ACR to win melees, even if they are charged themselves.


4. Drawbacks.
S-DR are vulnerable to shooting and magic.
The 4+ armour save is quite good but still not much facing a gunline with S4AP shots, nor a warmachine or magic missiles. Therefore, you need a large unit to be able to absorb a few shots and remain effective; and you need harpies to screen that unit. Harpies will block LOS, so when you place the harpies, you need to preserve some small free space for one DR to see the intended target. Next turn, the surviving harpies will charge away a very distant foe while the S-DR will get their coveted charge.
The harpies don’t block LOS from warmachines on hills. However, the said warmachines can be charged by the said harpies.

S-DR are cumbersome.
We have seen that S-DR are specialized in charges, counting on SCR for that.
It means that they must be taken in large units, 15 at least. A 5x4 unit of cavalry is a huge block that takes a lot of space, is hard to manoeuvre even with its M9, and is so large that it’s easily flankable / outmanoeuvred. Realistically, you won’t ever get a flank charge, all you can do is deploy the unit opposite to its target and charge straight away.

They are vulnerable to side charges.
Winning a single charge is easy, but the aftermath could be painful when playing against a subtle tactician. The risk is to get glued in some tar pit such as unbreakable troops or rerollable stubborn troops, and get flank-charged.

Final drawback:
15 or 20 models cost a lot of real world money. Sure, you can later on get the shields off and make them regular DR but you may find yourself with too many DR…
For your first tries, I’d recommend the use of proxies until you’re more confident with this unit.
See also the Painting and Modelling > Dark Riders for cheper solutions.


Last edited by Calisson on Sun Sep 20, 2009 6:24 am, edited 5 times in total.



Sat Sep 19, 2009 4:00 pm
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5. Best setting.

a. How many models, command, width?
The full command is always mandatory: you want the best SCR. The champion’s role is to challenge in order to spare the BSB.

The preferred width is 5: to put more models on the front rank will make the unit too cumbersome to manoeuvre, is not likely to get more models in contact and even so they would not get many more kills. On the other hand, the wider, the more expensive the extra rank. Therefore, 5 models per rank is the only appropriate setting.

10 DR-shields + FC is just too small, unless you just want an escort for a Master (see chapter 7).
As soon as you loose one, you find out that you would be better off with no shields (the mobility worth more than the protection). Having a BSB or the unit's standard does not change anything, loosing 1 is still enough to loose all the benefits compared to unshielded DR. 10 is not enough.

The minimum stand-alone unit is 15 DR with shields and FC.
I see no reason to take more than 20 S-DR in a single unit. More DR would be much better in a unit of 5 naked DR.

Another way to explore is to take several S-DR units. This will be dealt with in the paragraph about army building.

b. Banner
The warbanner would require the BSB, so it’s better to leave it to someone else.

The BSB with Standard of Slaughter (SoS) is the best cost-effective enhancement, and allows the war banner to be provided to another unit. As the charge is nearly guaranteed, the SoS seems to be made on purpose for S-DR. With this banner, you get +1D3 SCR on the charge, not forgetting that the BSB himself has some attacks and will help to get some ACR.

The Dread Banner BSB sitting in this unit is another great idea. The idea is that a unit of 15 S-DR has 30 US, more than most infantry units, and the ACR+SCR should be sufficient to win the melee and autobreak the unit which was charged.
One drawback of this banner is that it does not allow the BSB to jump away from one unit and help another unit, contrary to the SoS.

The BSB has the additional advantage of raising the Ld, which is a good thing especially when planning to charge fear-causing foes. However, it raises the cost and uses the single BSB slot.

c. Other characters
With an expensive unit vulnerable to shooting and magic, you would love to get the Ring of Darkness, the Ring of Hotek and a pair of Null Shards. This requires other characters than the BSB.
In that case the unit gets closer to become... the DR "Death Star", which has its own specific paragraph shortly below.

d. COB
Another good thing about their high movement is that they can receive a +1 attack from the Cauldron (probably the best blessing for them) and still reach a unit on the other side of the board. With a range of 42" (24" blessing range + 18" charging range), they are an efficient use of the Cauldron, as it helps spread its love around.
The COB is quite effective with S-DR (especially when charging), it would routinely add 1 more kill per 5 models of the considered unit. However, please note that the same +1CR result is gained with an additional rank – but for half the price. Not forgetting that more ranks means more wounds that the unit can take, so the CoB is a help, not a strategy.

My recommendation is not to take the CoB if your main unit is made of S-DR.

e. Cost of the SCR.
Shielded DR can be considered as SCR providers, which they can do at 18”, alone or in conjunction with another unit.

A unit of 10 shielded DR, muso, pennant , cost 201 pts and brings +2 SCR . Too small to stay alone, it needs a Master.
A unit of 15 shielded DR, muso, pennant , costs 291 pts and brings +3 SCR , reasonable for SCR far delivery.
A unit of 20 shielded DR, muso, pennant , costs 381 pts and brings +4 SCR , outstanding.
A unit of 15 shielded DR, FC, SoS BSB costs 471 pts and BSB slot and brings +5 SCR , terrific hammer unit.
A unit of 20 shielded DR, FC, SoS BSB costs 561 pts and BSB slot and brings +6 SCR , overkill?

All these units cost close to 95 pts for each SCR. All options seem valid; the most expensive being the least likely to ever fail – but they still must all be tested on the battlefield!

If taking several S-DR units, my recommendation would be to have two or three units of 15, FC, and the SoS BSB.
The unit with the BSB inside is the likely target of spells and shooting. However, in your next turn, the BSB can charge out of the depleted unit and join his forces (and excellent SCR) to another S-DR unit charging the same foe.


6. The S-DR über-unit.
You want to protect your expensive 561 pts unit from shooting and magic?
Add a master with RoH, another one with two null shards, a last one with the Ring of Darkness. Too bad, you cannot take the PoK in addition, that’s another enchanted item…

An interesting side-effect is that with 4 characters and the champion in the front row, there will be no rank & file in contact so only the characters & champion can be hit. The opponent’s ACR should be reduced accordingly!

It will make a medium-cost über-unit, and it is core! With its exceptional speed, it will be able to charge – and wipe away – any unit, contrary to all other über-units. You probably can count on two effective charges in the course of a battle. In addition, all the characters can lone-charge if required (warmachine in view).
It seems a realistic candidate for an über-unit although it has yet to be tried, to my best knowledge. EDIT: it has been tried, now :P . See the testimony, end of next post.

This über-unit may have some merits, however there are also huge drawbacks:
- A problem is that after having pursued, the unit may find itself in the middle of nowhere, or worse, in the middle of side-charging foes. It has a huge flank, so it must avoid to find itself glued on a tar pit.
- The unit has not that many wounds, nor a terrific armour save – and each lost wound has a high cost, but all über unit are like that - ; the unit fears all warmachines.
- The unit lacks a psychological boost that cannot come from cold ones.
- The unit cannot take assassins.
- With its speed, there hardly can be any supporting unit save harpies, which are a must-have but don't provide much except a moving shield.

My recommendation: only once, for fun. Don’t forget to bring your camera and take a picture of your opponent! :shock: :lol:


7. Escort for a cheap Master.

A small unit of 8-11 S-DR, FC, can be taken as an escort for the cheap warmachine-hunter Master.

Babysitting the Master in front of shooters.
The warmachine hunter has a big problem, which is to reach the warmachines he is supposed to hunt.
But inside a unit of S-DR, he cannot be targeted nor sniped (unless failing the "lookout Sir").
If the unit is shot at, it can loose 2 of them and not test for panic.
If the unit looses 3, the test is made under the Master's command, and if failed, the muso & Master's Ld will help rally.
The unit may advance until within 18" charging reach of warmachines.
Next turn, the Master will charge alone, leaving the unit in position to try to get a side charge to someone else, and generally speaking to annoy the enemy.

In addition, the S-DR unit can also act as it is designed for, a fast SCR complement, in order to help the Master's insufficient ACR.
You can select to leave the Master inside the unit, and charge with both:
- the Master provides ACR
- the unit provides SCR: +1 rank, +1 pennant, possibly +1 number, muso for ties. This is why you take S-DR rather than DR: yo uwant to protect the pennant a little longer.
- if side-charging, the unit grants +1 and cancels +x rank bonus, that the Master alone would not.
- Here, the armour is useful, in order to deny too easy kills to the enemy. This is where S-DR are better than DR.

Note that the Master does not even need to be inside the unit for both of them to charge the same unit.
- it is highly adviseable to have the Master inside the S-DR unit against fear-causing foes, for wich the Master would test on his Ld, the S-DR on their own and either one failed would be dramatic for the one who did not fail,
- on the other hand, it could be better to separate them if your chances to win the charge are good, because there would be two pursuits (each on 3 die) instead of a single one. However, the pursuing lone Master would risk to find himself isolated in the midst of angry foes.
Overall the Master is better off inside his babysitting S-DR unit, until he has a very good reason to jump out of it.


Last edited by Calisson on Thu Jan 21, 2010 8:21 pm, edited 9 times in total.



Sat Sep 19, 2009 4:01 pm
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8. Comparing to COK.
CoK are different horses for different courses.
The crucial special slot weigh in ones mind, however the hero/BSB slot is taken by the S-DR.
SCR: The S-DR unit has a big advantage over a similar cost CoK unit in terms of static CR.
ACR: The CoK generate 6 S6 attacks from riders, while the DR have 5 S4 + 3 S6, so the net result is not tremendously different.
Psychology: COK are fear-causing, unlike S-DR.
Armour: 2+ AS is much better than 4+.
Movement: 18" move vs 14" move, and no stupidity.

This last argument is the most important one. Many people can't stand Cold One Knights because of their lack of reliability, both for stupidity and for not being able to get the charge on quicker opponents. Do you really want to spend more than the minimum points on a heavy unit you may not get full value from? This is why COK usually come in units of 5-7 while S-DR can afford to come in units of 15-20.


9. Army building with a S-DR unit.

a. A single unit of 15, no BSB.
The only advantage that shielded DR have over just about anything else that we can field is that they're dang fast CR providers. As a result of this, you might tailor your whole army to get a second turn charge. Maybe take a lord on a dragon, master on peggy, 2-3 units of 15 DR, and just pick a flank and mad charge. Have the dragon and peggy master kill things while the DR provide SCR. Maybe take two hydras to play cleanup; that way if your initial charge loses momentum by running into a brick wall it can sit tight and wait for the caval-, err, hydras to arrive.

b. BSB and many S-DR
Admitting you’re investing the pts (and $€££) in a large unit of 15-20 S-DR, plus the SoS BSB, plus eventually another unit of S-DR. We’re talking about 600-1000 pts. Obviously your army will be built around the S-DR.

Victory in turn 2 is the aim.

You can have 2 (or more) S-DR units, one with the BSB, the other one remaining nearby. The BSB unit will become a nice target to be shot. Next turn, the intact unit charges, and the BSB charges alone the same target, jumping out of his unit. The BSB’s SCR is provided even if he is alone.

Your unit having 6 SCR should be able to win all but the hardest targets. For these targets, you need a complement: either a nasty Dragon or Manticore, or a side-charge with regular DR.

Remember, you need many harpies to shield your S-DR. At least one harpy unit for each S-DR unit, the more harpy-heavy, the more likely your SCR survives intact until making contact.
Also, you need to fill up the other core slots. Either more S-DR or regular DR spring to mind.

Then, in case you’d hit a stubborn unit or a tar pit, you need something strong to get you out of trouble. You must cover your flanks. The double-hydra seems a natural complement for that purpose.

Also, remember that all your special slots are available! This is when you get to recall that your good old COC are dusting in a cupboard and here is your chance to field 4 of them!

Overall, this would make a very nice themed army: very fast and mobile monster army, headed by a dragonlord and a manti, hydraes, only chariots as special units and many, many S-DR, DR and harpies. Nobody on foot.

c. Small games < 1999 pts
The unit of 15 shielded DR, FC, SoS BSB for 471pts should do marvels by itself.
Add two units of DR and a general on Manticore and you’ll get a quick and hard hitting party. It could even win you more games than friends.


10. Conclusion: test it at your own risk.
Beware that most DE players despise the S-DR, and hardly anyone has tried it – and reported.
More careful examination and thorough testing is definitively required.
For the moment, I would not expect this big unit to appear in a tournament, but it should be very innovative in less competitive games.

Lamekh has tried the new shielded DR.
Heralds of Ghrond - Dark Rider List - 2k
11 Dark Riders - 233 + Shield; Standard; Musician; Herald
Dreadlord - 253 + Lance; SDC; Sh; DS + 3 x Null Talismans + AoES
Master - 146 + Lance; HA; SDC; Sh; DS + Ring of Darkness
Master -156 + Lance; HA; SDC; Sh; Dark Steed + Gem of Nightmares + Ring of Hotek
Master - 177 + HA; SDC; Sh; Battle Standard; DS + Pendant of Khaeleth
+ Soulrender

It was after a discussion we had about DR: Druchii Guerilla - Dark Rider Death Star - 2k
16 Dark Riders - shields,xbows,FC - 403
Master - xbow,HA,Shield,lance,SDC,3xShard,Dark Steed - 161
Master - xbow,HA,shield,lance,SDC,Ring of Darkness,Dark Steed - 156
Master - xbow,HA,shield,lance,SDC,Gem, RoH,Dark Steed - 166
Master - xbow,HA,shield,lance,SDC,BSB,Standard of Slaughter,Dark Steed - 172

The author never posted any batrep about these lists, to my best knowledge, but I remember seeing once a post with the mention that they were effective indeed.


11. Answers to this thread:
If you just want to say “IMO it sucks and I won’t even try”, then you’re not contributing to anything, please don’t bother to reply. This negative contribution has been already covered in:Dark Riders with Shields and DR with shields?

A much more useful contribution would be “I tried and it (sucks)/(rocks), as shown in the batrep (provide hyperlink).”
Thank you, for the sake of science (and victory, too). ;)




EDIT: a testimony.
In another thread,
The Warchief wrote:
I tried it after reading the DRAICH article on Shielded Dark Riders. You can create a DarkRiderStar with multiple characters in to protect from shooting, magic and ItP and because you can get massive SCR (ranks, Standard, BSB, SoS and usually outnumber) decent ACR thanks to characters combined with the speed of the unit it will take on most things. Big downside is the armour save in combat, but you have to aim to break your opponent in the turn you charge. It also needs support from Monsters (Dragon, Hydra Manticore), Harpies, traditional Dark Riders, COK, and COC.

However it ends up the same as most "deathstar" themed armies, it will work against some and fail against others.
Geist wrote:
Well here it is my medium cav, and so far they have worked a charm. So check out this idea.
11 Dark Riders with shields banner and unit champ. Next is the master that goes with this unit, one of 2 types.
Type A
Master mounted on dark steed KB lance, enchanted shield, hvy armour, sea dragon cloak. Gives a 1+ save and a 0+ vs shooting.
Type B
Master mounted on dark steed, with hydra banner BSB (of course lol), hvy armour, shield, lance and sea dragon cloak. 2+save 1+ vs shooting.

Type A was used at the Lone Wolf. Worked well, my dice went south on me a few times so full potential was never reached, but when it did work it worked a charm.

Type B has seen some field testing in 2 games so far. Game against woodies and did very well. Game 2 was against a high elf tiranoc chariot heavy list, game was a draw, but that was more the nature of our 2 lists than anything else.

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Last edited by Calisson on Wed Mar 17, 2010 8:00 pm, edited 4 times in total.



Sat Sep 19, 2009 4:02 pm
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Defenitely it worth testing. Thanks for the analysis.

The D.R.A.I.CH is awesome.

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Sat Sep 19, 2009 6:05 pm
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I was one of the advocates of the concept and think it could be interesting. Sort a Druchii Hussar? I like the idea of twenty of them with masters to protect them from the enemy magic and shooting.

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Sat Sep 19, 2009 6:25 pm
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Just one thought:
You mentioned the Dread Banner BSB. But what du you think about a master with Gem of Nightmares instead and something useful for the remaining 25 pts.? And what should this be, a R.o.Hotek or something else?
They won't profit from the Gem in case of several charges but in most cases there is only one turn you can expect winning the combat and so you know quite well when to activate the Gem.


Sat Sep 19, 2009 8:00 pm
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This topic brought idea of S-DR back into my mind. Unfortunetly, i have no money for now. But i will try some proxie, bud i play a backbone of my army from two units of spearelves. So i would try to fit there around 15 S-DR.

For this case, it would be fun to mix it with a hydra banner (or a dread banner) in it and with cauldron of blood.

S-DR could be useful as fast support unit for my infantry, i very often use my units during deploy in order to confuse my oponent and cavalry with 18" could fit this role very well (when you deploy there one fast cavalry, oponent only smiles because he know how easy it could by send to the other part of table, but when i will place there 15 DRs, he could be consfused).

A large block of S-DR will often hold enemie units preventing them from moving or charging (move and charge and be than flanked by 15 riders...).


Sat Sep 19, 2009 9:14 pm
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Personally, I find the best use of shielded DR is in a unit of 6 as rank negaters vs infantry blocks. They are fast enough to threaten the flank and well armoured enough to last longer than our normal DRs. Particularly useful vs ASF stuff (not high strength, obviously) like ghouls or HE spears which would rip them up otherwise.

Too bad nobody I know brings infantry other than my VC opponent who stacks it with great weapon heroes...

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Sat Sep 19, 2009 9:25 pm
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Calisson nice report about the dark riders

10 shielded Dark riders sounds fun too use.
15 or more dark riders is a bit big unit and harder too wheel the unit.


Sun Sep 20, 2009 9:40 am
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I've used them, with moderate success, but only in 500 points games. We play 500 points games with the border patrol rules, which allow a single special or rare slot.

My army consisted of 5 shielded dark riders, a hero with pendant and sword of might, a chariot, and 10 crossbowmen. Admitted, it's friendly play, but it's probably the only instance I'd ever take them.

They do last a little bit longer than ordinary DR, and in low points games threaten almost everything with their huge charge range. They are also pretty easy to set up a flank charge or combined charge.

Major drawback: you bounce off armor. That's why the master is better equipped with caledor's bane/enchanted shield in 500 points. That's almost a guaranteed 3 wounds at -4 armor modifier, and a chariot popper, which can be annoying in 500 points.

Long story short: I see some merit in using them in small games, even in small numbers, but in a friendly environment only.

Another question: have you considered using them with the banner of murder? Seems like something to test, but it would probably be less cost effective than the standard of slaughter.


Mon Sep 21, 2009 9:08 am
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Thanks everyone for the attention.

After writing that article, I am convinced that DR should be taken either in units of 5, without shield, or in units of 15 or even 20, with shields.


Small units (5-8) of DR or S-DR alike will kill a few foes, not many.
- DR/S-DR will bounce against elite armoured foes, they will suffer in retaliation and loose the combat.
- DR/S-DR would kill several weaker foes, however those foes come often in large units, which can afford to loose a few and still win through SCR.

In these cases, 5-6 S-DR have the advantage of a better armour (let's say 1 less ACR) for the price of the loss of ability to reform at will, which helps a lot to get a side-charge (1 more SCR).
Furthermore, DR have the ability to refuse a charge and rally and move, what S-DR don't.
IMO, that makes DR superior to S-DR.


Medium units of S-DR (10-12) get +1 rank bonus. This can be considered sufficient to grant them a significant role.
However,
- they loose their advantage as soon as they become <10, i.e. quickly.
- 10 S-DR will still bounce against elite armoured foes, they will suffer in retaliation and loose the combat by 1 less than above
- 10 S-DR would kill no more weaker foes than above, so they will just loose by 1 less.

IMO, that is not enough to consider this medium unit as stand-alone.
If I invest in a unit, I want it either to win combats, or to serve a specific role.
More than 10 DR or S-DR are not anymore expandable, and S-DR are not baiters.


As a conclusion, If I want to use S-DR, I must get them more ACR or SCR.
This is done by expanding the unit and getting FC, and, in addition, a BSB for more SCR or a Master for more ACR.

- obviously the pennant is mandatory, for guaranteed +1SCR.
- the next most reliable is to provide them one more rank, for guaranteed +1SCR.
- one suggestion is to provide them the AP banner. Excellent suggestion, since it benefits both the riders and the mount. However, it requires the BSB. Hence my suggestion to take the SoS and make a better use (more cost-effective) of the BSB.

Therefore, my conclusion that this S-DR unit should be considered minimal at 15, FC.

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Mon Sep 21, 2009 10:27 am
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In my initial arcticle, I forgot to consider one specific use:

Escort for a cheap Master

This role allows the use of smaller units that I considered so far.
I inserted the chapter 7 on this specific topic.


EDIT: Example of list with few S-DR can be seen here => 1500: Giving shielded DRs a go! Comments appreciated.

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Last edited by Calisson on Sun Dec 13, 2009 8:46 am, edited 1 time in total.



Tue Sep 22, 2009 2:33 pm
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Nobody suggested the Hydrabanner yet. Any reason for that? I think it might work very well too. Make them 6 wide with the bearer and maybe one more master and/or a highborn and you have a lot of attacks. Not to mention the CoB ;) Or is it a total overkill then?


Wed Sep 23, 2009 12:44 pm
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elsu wrote:
Nobody suggested the Hydrabanner yet. Any reason for that? I think it might work very well too. Make them 6 wide with the bearer and maybe one more master and/or a highborn and you have a lot of attacks. Not to mention the CoB ;) Or is it a total overkill then?
Hydra banner is effective, but probably not as cost-effective as the SoS when facing armoured troops. See The D.R.A.I.C.H. Boot Camp – flag-doping
The SoS brings +2CR whatever the opponent. The hydra banner brings somewhere between +1 and +4 CR, depending on the opponent, and costs 40 pts more. That would be worth if you could count on +3 CR in average, but I'm not sure it is the case.

COB mentioned above, 5d. Effective, but one additional rank costs less and is just as effective.

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Wed Sep 23, 2009 2:40 pm
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I see the merit of running a unit of 6-7 with a cheap master. This would be something to effect of a master with lance, hvy armor, SDC, and enchanted shield. The added combat power should make this unit a killer flanker. It shouldn't be too cost prohibitive and while it does take a character slot, many times, with the increased power of our army, running three characters and one that is dedicated as a low cost choice isn't unreasonable.

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Wed Sep 23, 2009 7:00 pm
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Hi folks,

yesterday i tried a über-unit of S-DRiders and ended up beeing third placed ;)
(Thanks to Calisson for his help in this topic and via pm!)

I played against HE (17:3), Chaos (20:0) and the last against Tomb Kings (5:15). Against the TK i made a big mistake. In the second turn i attacked the big block of tomb guardians (?) with the king in it and killed 19 of 20. So the king and 1 men were alive. That wasnt the mistake. The big mistake i made was that i didnt used my hydra to cover the left flank of my S-DR unit, so i got flanked by a 3 light chariots and lost my rerollable breaktest on the 8 ;). Game over. Else i would have won 20:0. Such mistakes are necessary to learn from it! (I am still a newb ;p).

My list:

*************** 1 Bigboss ***************
HB
+ Shild, SDC
+ DS
+ S6 Weapon, Ring of Darkness, AoES
- - - > 267 Points

*************** 3 Heros ***************
Master
+ Lance, HA, Shild, SDC
+ DS
+ BSB, Hydrabanner
- - - > 206 Points

Master
+ Lance, HA, Shild, SDC
+ DS
+ 3 x Nullshards
- - - > 151 Points

Master
+ Lance, HA, Shild, SDC
+ DS
+ Fear-Causing-Item, Ring of Hotek
- - - > 156 Points

*************** 5 Core ***************
15 DR, Shilds, FC
- - - > 305 Punkte

10 X-Bows, Shilds
- - - > 110 Points

10 X-Bows
- - - > 100 Points

5 Harpies
- - - > 55 Points

5 Harpies
- - - > 55 Points

*************** 4 Elites ***************
CoC
- - - > 100 Points

CoC
- - - > 100 Points

CoK
- - - > 135 Points

5 Shades, add. HW
- - - > 85 Points

*************** 1 Rare ***************
War Hydra
- - - > 175 Points

Points: 2000

I like it to play something unconventional, because it is very funny. You should have seen the faces of my opponents. Something like that: :shock:
I have to say that it was fun for the opponents too. Not like the Shadestar - Deathstar, we had good games.

Such a "über-kav-breaker" is very risky, but fun to play. You get the charge on the second turn, no matter what. You just have to choose what to attack and make sure your flanks are covered.

One thing i could not understand: All the visitors said: "What an hard list, very strong for tournaments!" I would not say that. Am i wrong? What would you say?

You have any ideas to improve the list by theorie?

Rork edit: Individual item costs removed.


Sun Oct 04, 2009 2:43 pm
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I've tried 5-man units of Dark Riders both with shields and without and I've had mixed results. Sometimes they don't do a darned thing and sometimes they are all-stars. Last night one unit of them flanked and ran down a block of Dwarven Warriors and took out two Bolt Throwers. That's more than my DE Warriors ever seem to do. I haven't made up my mind but the success I've had with them tells me they bear more investigation and experimentation.


Sun Oct 04, 2009 4:34 pm
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sweet stuff calisson, I might have to convert some more DR with shields.

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Mon Oct 05, 2009 2:04 pm
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elsu wrote:
Nobody suggested the Hydrabanner yet. Any reason for that? I think it might work very well too. Make them 6 wide with the bearer and maybe one more master and/or a highborn and you have a lot of attacks. Not to mention the CoB ;) Or is it a total overkill then?


Actually if you will look where I was quoted. My type B master build uses said banner.

Also I would just like to go out and point out this simple bit. With the hydra banner and blessings from the cauldron, the sky is the limit for this unit. You can get a rock hard BSB in there, 2+save and 5+ ward (from the pot). You can have a unit with a ton of attacks that has a 4+ 5+ or if your going into something hard. 4+ and KB. Thats a ton of KB attacks, you should roll even chaos warriors on the flank. With luck you can hit the front, but that's with luck. This is an idea that I think merits more thought. I personally plan on playing this build (refer to Type B) more often.

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Wed Mar 17, 2010 8:26 pm
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The analysis I gave was:
Hydra banner is effective, but probably not as cost-effective as the SoS when facing armoured troops.
The SoS brings +2CR (in average) whatever the opponent. The hydra banner brings somewhere between +1 and +4 CR, depending on the opponent, and costs 40 pts more. That would be worth if you could count on +3 CR in average, but I'm not sure it is the case.
COB mentioned above, 5d. Effective, but one additional rank costs less and is just as effective.


However, I've never tried it on the battlefield, and I did not consider simultaneously the hydra banner and the COB, for a far reaching charge. :twisted:
The hydra banner does indeed grant one more attack for both riders and dark steeds, for a total of 10 more attacks. But don't forget that the COB's blessing does not grant KB to the mounts, by the way, only to the riders.


Could you test these combos below and report back here which is the best, in actual games?

Type B
Master mounted on dark steed, with hydra banner BSB, hvy armour, shield, lance and sea dragon cloak.
11 Dark Riders with shields banner and unit champ.
COB.

Type C
Master mounted on dark steed, with SoS banner BSB, hvy armour, shield, lance and sea dragon cloak.
11 Dark Riders with shields banner and unit champ.
COB.

Type D
Master mounted on dark steed, with hydra banner BSB, hvy armour, shield, lance and sea dragon cloak.
16 Dark Riders with shields banner and unit champ.
No use of COB.

Type E
Master mounted on dark steed, with SoS banner BSB, hvy armour, shield, lance and sea dragon cloak.
16 Dark Riders with shields banner and unit champ.
No use of COB.

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Wed Mar 17, 2010 10:53 pm
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Calisson wrote:
The analysis I gave was:
Hydra banner is effective, but probably not as cost-effective as the SoS when facing armoured troops.
The SoS brings +2CR (in average) whatever the opponent. The hydra banner brings somewhere between +1 and +4 CR, depending on the opponent, and costs 40 pts more. That would be worth if you could count on +3 CR in average, but I'm not sure it is the case.
COB mentioned above, 5d. Effective, but one additional rank costs less and is just as effective.


However, I've never tried it on the battlefield, and I did not consider simultaneously the hydra banner and the COB, for a far reaching charge. :twisted:
The hydra banner does indeed grant one more attack for both riders and dark steeds, for a total of 10 more attacks. But don't forget that the COB's blessing does not grant KB to the mounts, by the way, only to the riders.


Could you test these combos below and report back here which is the best, in actual games?

Type B
Master mounted on dark steed, with hydra banner BSB, hvy armour, shield, lance and sea dragon cloak.
11 Dark Riders with shields banner and unit champ.
COB.

Type C
Master mounted on dark steed, with SoS banner BSB, hvy armour, shield, lance and sea dragon cloak.
11 Dark Riders with shields banner and unit champ.
COB.

Type D
Master mounted on dark steed, with hydra banner BSB, hvy armour, shield, lance and sea dragon cloak.
16 Dark Riders with shields banner and unit champ.
No use of COB.

Type E
Master mounted on dark steed, with SoS banner BSB, hvy armour, shield, lance and sea dragon cloak.
16 Dark Riders with shields banner and unit champ.
No use of COB.


I can easily test B and C, but it would take me some work to figure out how to fit in 16 dragoons. 11 Dragoons is ideal for my list and play style. 16 is a tad cumbersome. As to the SoS banner, I am not sure I am sold on it. I like a fair amount of combat res in kills, and only the minimum in static res.
The other thing is anything that's variable makes me wonder about it. d3 extra combat res is nice but just not sure. I will try it and see how it works. The 16 unit combos will have to be on you. I will test the 11 Hyrda in 3 games saturday for a tourny.

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Thu Mar 18, 2010 4:39 am
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Geist wrote:
I have 4 5 man units of dark riders with repeaters, 2 hydras, CoB and 16 Black guard with assassin and lord.
It seems that you have enough models to test D and E, but of course, that is up to you. ;)
I did not imagine that 6+6 or 6+6+5 made a great difference.

The logics behind these builds is different:

Type B relies on ACR mostly. It depends on dice, of course, but also on the opponent.
As it relies on killing, if the opponent does not break, it has been much reduced at least, so the following turns are easier.

Type E relies on SCR mostly. It depends much less on dice, however it is a single dice, and much less on the opponent.
It relies not much on killing, but on gaining combat resolution and pursuing. If the opponent holds, then it is more in trouble in the following turns.

Type C and D are in between. I tend to feel that they would be less effective than B or E.
If another setting was to be tested, that could be probably E.



EDIT:
Geist tries:
Medium Cav Project. Royal Dragoons
followed by:
Report from the Front.

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Thu Mar 18, 2010 7:06 am
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