are druchii broken?

[Pokatchu]

first of all excuse my poor english! it s nor my first language

i recently make a tornament whit glorierdelagloire rules : main points to not loose composition points are: more points in troop the characters, no more then 2x same unit no spécial characters!!

i make a list where there was no hydra, do dragon, no assassins, no POK, no sac dagger, do ring of hotek, no death star and only 2 RBT as rare choice

i finish first whit: best army composition, best general and overal champ
i got 2 massacre and a major victory (would have be a massacre if judge did not call time!

so the question is:if whitout all what people think is broken, i still manage to get such result, can DE be considered broken??

thks all

ps: sry i wont give a list of the army as i will probably use it again soon in another tornament

[Weenth]

i make a list where there was no hydra, do dragon, no assassins, no POK, no sac dagger, do ring of hotek, no death star and only 2 RBT as rare choice

i finish first whit: best army composition, best general and overal champ
i got 2 massacre and a major victory (would have be a massacre if judge did not call time!

so the question is:if whitout all what people think is broken, i still manage to get such result, can DE be considered broken??

1. No, I don't think DE are broken. They're good, but without their best/most powerfull elements (sometimes cheesy/undercosted even on their own, like Hydra or PoK) they're not better than most books out there.

2. I'm not a tournament player myself, but from what I gathered, Deatstars are often very powerful (unless there are Compostion Points to hider them). That said, they're neither unbeatable, nor DE-specific strategy, so I think your result was mainly effect of your skill compared to your opponents.

3. However, one of the things also often pointed to be cheesy is skirmishing Shades deathstar (most skirmishers have max-size cap on them). Don't know if you used it, but if you did, then it's not that you left out all that's considered cheesy in DE - only most of it.

[Rabidnid]

first of all excuse my poor english! it s nor my first language

i recently make a tornament whit glorierdelagloire rules : main points to not loose composition points are: more points in troop the characters, no more then 2x same unit no spécial characters!!

i make a list where there was no hydra, do dragon, no assassins, no POK, no sac dagger, do ring of hotek, no death star and only 2 RBT as rare choice

i finish first whit: best army composition, best general and overal champ
i got 2 massacre and a major victory (would have be a massacre if judge did not call time!

so the question is:if whitout all what people think is broken, i still manage to get such result, can DE be considered broken??

thks all

ps: sry i wont give a list of the army as i will probably use it again soon in another tornament

Nope.

They reward aggresive play and can do massive damage quickly. They are frail, but if you are careful to protect against easy losses - and your opponent is not too bright - you can win versus anybody without too much trouble.

They are a recent powerful army, but I would leave the "broken" tag for DoC alone.

[No one]

maybe they are overpowerd, or maybe you were just the better general, without knowing anything about your list and your opponent's lists it's hard to form an opinion, but I think DE aren't overpowerd without hydra's, pendant, ring, dragon, shade-star or black guard. but hey, that's just my opinion

[Calisson]

Compliments on your winning.

Indeed, most of the frown units/items were not taken:
- no hydra, do dragon: the two cheesiest monsters we can get.
- no star/manbane assassins: the famous S7 anti chariot combo plus the shades-charge-in-turn-1 trick
- no POK, no ring of hotek: the two best items in our inventory
- no death star (understood no ASF BG nor shade DS): the most feared units
- no sac dagger: the most reliable magic.


Still available to make a very strong list:
- harpies / RXB DR / shades / RHB corsairs / shielded MXBmen for agile taunting units: excellent if you take one of each.
- COB in conjuction with Execs/WE and SSS corsairs for hitty units, not forgetting the "mere" BG! Deadly!
- impressive armour of the chariot and COK
- excellent RBT
- heavy magic with PoD, Black Staff and, of course, the FF!
- the Manti gets much better if you know that your opponent will not have double cannons/double shooty units.

and... hatred for everyone.


Druchii are not a "point & click" army and become even less so without hydra/dragon/ASF BG.
With or without limitations, it requires a good general to get the most of it, so compliments again on that.

As a conclusion, if you discard the best units/items available for DE
but
do the same for all your opponents,
then DE remain a very dangerous army to play against.

Not broken, but very powerful in the hands of a good general.


EDIT: impressive number of answers in short time (there were no answer when I started to type). This topic remains highly sensitive!

[Danceman]

Posting this on a DE site will probably result in a very one-sided view. I will try to give a relatively balanced answer.

The short answer is, Yes it is just like Daemons and VC which are the other two placed in the top tier in terms of power of the army book. Short answers are seldom very satisfying so allow me to ellaborate. The repeated argument that DE arent broken, just powerful in a good general. First off, the arrogant standpoint that the DE book isnt powerful but it is powerful in my hand since I am such a good player so of course DE wins alot. I find this argument highly insulting and it puts you in the akward position of claiming superiority over other players.

As for the content. Yes, it is easy to break the list. The tactics and tricks are far from hidden(even the assassin isnt much of a suprise). While I wouldnt say DE are point and click, I would say it is point-move cursor over here-click. Or even better words, not especially complicated at all in relation to the other armies out there. DE are no longer the underdogs and even a balanced list can give most armies of any flavour a run for its money. This is where I've heard the argument "But doesnt that make us balanced?". No, it does not. Balanced would be if your opponent could do the same, ie not having to pick certain units and items every single time to win, or atleast have a shot.

Also, why is this argument afforded to DE. It applies to the Daemons and VC as well. You can elect to not bring the worst units in abundance or tone down your magic phase but the fact still remains glaringly obvious. Yes, DE is broken in exactly the same reason as VC and DoC.

DoC has carried the broken-stick for way too long, as did VC. I am a VC players myself, I know how it feels. It's better just to admit it and play along. Denying it and boasting that you're such a good player is obnoxious and annoying to other players.
It's not a bad book though, it has character and style(of which the current VC book has none in comparison) but the so-called "Big 3" are at the moment the most powerful books and are broken.

Lastly, when making a list and you've got to think to yourself "How can I might this list worse?" or "Should I really take 2, or even 1 of this unit?" and so on and so on. This makes it more evident I think. Again, VC and DoC tend to have this in their minds.

So, while I think the DE(as well as VC and DoC) are broken doesnt mean you cant fix it but again the fact that so many think it needs fixing only affirms my view of the book being broken. But please, stubbornly saying the DE book is balanced is obnoxious at best. Just accept the fact you got dealt a good hand this edition.

Not aiming to offend here, just to share the views of another gamer who had to accept the fact his favourite army is a big pile of tasty brie.

Cheers and happy gaming!

[Rork]

I'd agree with Danceh.

DE are currently one of the top three armies and have a large selection of good and/or undercosted units in the army - even the units that are considered 'inferior' are only labelled thus because the units that compete for the same slot are so much better (Executioners vs COK/BG, for example).

About the only thing we can say is that DE may not always be near the top of the tree - most armies decline in power as new armies come out (with the possible exception of VC, whose previous book remained powerful for a very long time, and has come back again with their current book). But we shall see.

[Tzelok]

GW has very much admitted to "power creep". I will admit that the DE armybook is powerful, and generally I agree with Dance, we are one of the "big 3" at the moment. However, I do know that as long as an army list doesn't consist of all of the cheesiest elements we have, we can make a fairly balanced list, though still powerful. However, if played poorly (like any army) you can still lose games. Its not mindless. I think we're going to hear the cries of cheese for awhile, at least until a few more army books come out and people start abusing cheesy combos with new armies. Until that time, I will still happily use my DE army without maxing out my uberunits/items/combos.

[Phierlihy]

Whether we all answer "yes, it's totally broken" or "no, it's just a good book", how is our oppinion going to effect anything? This seems like a bit of a pointless topic.

[Calisson]

Thanks, danceman, for the diverse view.

It could be my understanding of "broken" and "balanced" which is wrong.
Blame my poor, non-native speaker English.


D.net being a DE forum, you should expect DE players to like to come and comfort each other. This is a normal place to hear from each other how good generals we are. I am no different, and pardon my "arrogance".

However:
I did not say that the DE book isnt powerful.
My view is that it is not TOO powerful.

I would adopt the reverse point of view, that in the hands of a lame general, DE are not that hard to beat. This is why I still feel that they are not "broken".
How do they compare to DoC and VC in that view (I don't know the answer)?

I play against my sons who play Dwarf, Brets, Empire, HE or Gobbos, I find the hard way that they have very decent chances to win and even massacre sometimes my DE. Are you telling me that I must be the worst DE general, or both my sons are probably tactical geniuses, for me to be beaten with such a broken book when I cannot even blame the dice?
Well, OK, someone has to be better than his opponent and it happens not to be me. At least I can testify that, in the hands of a modest player, DE are really not broken.


@phierlihy, agree with you, however it is always a fun discussion, especially with talented contradiction such as danceman's.

[Rork]

However:
I did not say that the DE book isnt powerful.
My view is that it is not TOO powerful.

I would adopt the reverse point of view, that in the hands of a lame general, DE are not that hard to beat. This is why I still feel that they are not "broken".
How do they compare to DoC and VC in that view (I don't know the answer)?

I'd strongly disagree. Any army in the hand of a bad general can be easy to beat. While daemons and VC have the benefits of ItP and psuedo-unbreakability, it doesn't mean a good general (playing against a relatively inexperienced opponent) can't use those particularly benefits against him.

But Dark Elves can turn up with multiple units of Black Guard, hydra and RBTs and other units added for taste. That sort of army is almost as reliable as any VC or Daemon army with the units that "count" - BG and friends aren't going anywhere unless you're unlucky.

That's what puts DE in the same league as DoC/VC. Relative player skill is not particularly relevant to the argument that one army is "less broken" than another.

[Linkinhearts666]

IAgree that the DE book is powerful. I mean as WoC i've been on the end of smackdown. But I dont think theyre broken

Theyre are plenty of viable strategies against DE have difficulty playing against.

Although very powerful, I dont think they are broken. Is anyone subscriubed to "Vaul" on youtube? in his most recent tourney, he as a HE player (no DS or cheesey things) beat a DE army with a hydra, RBT the ring . 20-0

Frankly, just things like that show that the list is far from broken. Yes its powerful, but the other books will be brought up to a similar speed i think. no matter what, theres always going to be lists that are better than others, its inevitable in such a varied game. to determine some as broken purely because they are stronger or anything is just proving that some people struggle with not having their favourite army layin the biff out everytime. Yes i may be "arrogant" but as I havent actually played as a DE yet, i think im within my rights to stake this claim.

Thanks guys <33

[Rork]

Theyre are plenty of viable strategies against DE have difficulty playing against.

Although very powerful, I dont think they are broken. Is anyone subscriubed to "Vaul" on youtube? in his most recent tourney, he as a HE player (no DS or cheesey things) beat a DE army with a hydra, RBT the ring . 20-0

Your logic is flawed - Just because they can be beaten (a premise no one will deny) does not mean they aren't broken/overpowered (choose your euphemism).

All armies, even DoC and VC have what could be termed 'nemesis' match-ups. Daemons, for all their ward saves, don't stand up well to volume of shots/attacks since only a handful of models get a save better than 5+. Even Vampires, whose stronger army builds can end up reliant on Invocation, can be taken down.

An army that ticks all the right powergaming boxes can still be beaten, even massacred, but one particular example does not prove anything (it's a logical fallacy to assume so).

Dark Elves can cover their weaknesses very well, and field some immensely powerful units and item combos. That is what makes them, DoC and VC the current rulers of the roost.

In time all armies will likely equal or beat them on the power curve (since that is what 'always' happens), but for the time being DE are a tier 1 army.

[Dante valentine]

What i think is important to remember is that an army is only as good as its General.

Dark elves have "options" which a strong general can use to his advantage (i.e, decent shooting, powerful magic, good offensive infantry, imo-the sexiest cavarly in the game for the points (someoe will probably argue this point but i still love cold ones)).

It is true that some armies do not have the tactical range that is allowed by dark elves. This does not make DE's broken, what it does make them is, a powerful army if played correctly!

For example, i played an opponent who had gotten himself a Daemons list after years of playing brettonians. He did this purely for the reason that he had constantly read that Daemons were amazing, daemons were unbeatable, etc etc.

His considerable lack of any skill as a general meant that he failed to take advantage of his strong units during the game and allowed me time after time to pick his force apart.

Result, a massacre against DoC. Why? Because my list is broken? No, because i took advatage what my list offered while my opponent didnt!

So, when your opponent's start moaning that DE's are broken after you have just drained his generals blood to Khaine, just remind him that every list has its advantages.

(and then cast a curse upon him!)

Regards

Dante

[Rork]

That's true up to a point - a player does have to make the most of his army.

But what the Big Three have is that when two players of equal skill face each other, the army of the Big Three (vs lower tier armies) will have more things to take advantage of than the 'average' army.

Taking one of the Big Three increases your chances (effectively created an unbalaced game) of winning. That makes a good player potentially very good and a bad player potentially average.

[Danceman]

I'm just going to sum up my response with quoting Rork;

Dark Elves can cover their weaknesses very well, and field some immensely powerful units and item combos. That is what makes them, DoC and VC the current rulers of the roost.

Also, this statement;

"I agree that the book is powerful but not broken".

You could make this claim for any army. DoC/VC isnt so bad if you dont take that gift, that unit, that character and so on. But even when toning down the list it is quite hard not to make a hard list with either of the "Big 3" as even a "balanced" list is a tough list.

[Dante valentine]

Very true.

At the end of the day, if all fails, ply your opponent with beer.

By the end of some battles, its confusing to remember which troops belong to which general in my house!

[Kangavallo]

In my humble opinion, The DE have two flaws that will stop them being broken no mater how cheesey the book is (the first much more important than the second).

Toughness 3 kills! although a lot of our models can be underpriced for the power they dish out, It is very hard to field alist with a lot of elves in it. This makes us very vulnerable to shooting and magic. This is compounded by the fact that our armour is (very broadly speaking) lower than other races and that ward saves are rare and highly priced when you can get them. The PoK only protects one model!

The second is our lack of strength. Apart from the hydra, the CoC and CoK are really the only high strength models out there but these are hampered right out of the gate by the dreaded stupidity and an inferior charge range.

So yes, we can get some tricked out lists, yes we are a top tier army. But we still have these major issues that will always prevent us from crossing over the 'broken' threshold. Elves are weak and squishy and if you aren't an idiot and you have the right list, you can wipe the flaw with the Druchii.

[Danceman]

Kangavallo: I was hoping we could get here without calling people names, but fair enough. I am an idiot then, let me tell you why.

DE lacks high strength attacks; Characters, Monsters(of which you have alot of, both as ridden mounts and normal monsters), Knights, chariots, shades, Executioners and RBTs. Then there is hatred which adds alot of extra punch(even to the "weaker" units).

T3 isnt really anything speacial anymore. Not since you got a solid price-drop and/or a special rule to make the unit tougher.

The two argument you stated now worked with the old book, not anymore as they no longer ring true. You dont have those weaknesses anymore.

[Dante valentine]

T3 is not weak, its average.

True, some lists do have exclusive t4 troop (dwarves spring to mind), but this is only to compensate for other short fallings.

Empire, Bret's, Vampires (not all troops fair enough), Tomb Kings, Daemons, the list goes ever onwards will be fielding toughness 3 troops.

Its only characters that tend to be higher toughness than the troops, and to be fair, DE's have more than enough nasty magic tricks up their sleeve to compensate for, on average, one lower toughness point.

So, does toughness hamper Dark Elves....Hell No!

Now, onto the subject of strength. Again, Dark Elves have Average Strength, but then to top it off, we have some massively hard hitting units. CoK's are truly scary on the charge with Str 6!, Executioners again at a whopping str 6 with killing blow, Even the brave shades can be upgraded to clonk the enemy around the head with str 5 attacks.

Now, many other lists can boast high str attacks, but dont forgot the Druchii's favourite weapon HATRED! which in my opinion is THE best thing we have to offer.

So what your cok's with hydra banner missed all their 15 attacks on the charge! (7 wide, +1 each banner, and champion). It doesnt matter, we now have the ability to re-roll.

This, in effect pretty much ensures that every round of combat we have will be Average, bad results dont tend to happen too often with re-rolls. (not to say they dont).

So im sorry, but your argument has very little basis in fact!

It doesnt matter how cheap or expensive units are (and to be fair a spearman costs the same as an empire swordsman!), it only matters how many are going to be in combat during the game and/or do something useful.

Final point, (before someone bludgeons me to shut up!), our armour.

ok, so we might not have the protection offered by a dwarf or chaos suit of plate! but look at the list, read the fluff. its not meant to be like that. If Dark Elves had toughness four and chaos plate armour, can you imagine how broken we would be then?

They are bloodthirsty nutters who like to get stuck in, not sit behind a baricade and rely on 4 inch of tempered steel! Dont feel guilty about using harpies or spearmen to take bulltets for your harder hitting units. A true druchii does not care about the lives of his fellow soldiers (or to be fair, his offspring or his family!). I know what id sooner be hid behind, a suit of plate armour or two dozen infantry men when the bullets started flying?

I dont believe any list is "broken" (even DoC! Gasp!), i play the game for tactics, and if your opponent drags up a incredibly dodgy list from hell, then shake his hand and be prepared next time to field somethin equally dodgy!

Thats my humble opinion, im not saying its right, but it takes the facts what is available and compares them to other lists and opponents, rather than just making sweepings statements like T3 makes is weak and Dark Elf armies dont have High Str Hitting Units.

Kindest Regards

Dante

[Kangavallo]

Well where to begin... I suppose I should say first that I wasn't calling any one here an idiot.


Next I should point out that I wasn't talking about T3 on it's own. Elves, unlike other armies, have to combine low toughness with low armour and relatively expensive models. They die very easily and there just aren't enough of them. Shooting and magic can decimate the army long before your Exectutioners get into combat. I'd also like to point outt that no where did I say that we should have high armour, wither because of fluff or despite it.

As for the strength... yes we obviously have more than we did last edition but that isn't saying much really. As I said, knights and chariots may be strong but actually getting them to charge without failing stupidity is hardly easy, especially since they are out manouvered by other cavalry or without them being shot to pieces any way. Executioners may be strong but like I said, they are pretty easy to kill at range and then out combat res them or just plain ignore. The vast majority of the army is strength 3 and most of the things with higher strength have some pretty major issues.

My point is that the average model in the average combat is goingt o be S3 T3 with a 5+ armour save and no ward. Even with hatred, we are at a disadvantage in combat, particularly after the 1st turn. This means taht we are vulnerable at distance and in close combat and i believe this is enough to keep us on the lower side of the powerful/ broken barrier.

[Rork]

My point is that the average model in the average combat is goingt o be S3 T3 with a 5+ armour save and no ward. Even with hatred, we are at a disadvantage in combat, particularly after the 1st turn. This means taht we are vulnerable at distance and in close combat and i believe this is enough to keep us on the lower side of the powerful/ broken barrier.

Some might contend that if you're in the 2nd round of combat you're either unlucky or doing something wrong.

And the lack of armour isn't strictly an issue. The shadestar, possibly one of the dodgiest DE army builds, centres on a unit with little or no armour (Admittedly with a heap of magic items in tow).

Characters, assassins and hydrae overcome these disadvantages quite well. In the most common DE armies, the units that you're likely to see that remain S3 are crossbowmen, possibly spearmen (Witch Elves for the fluff bunnies out there).

Armour is a bigger issue, but having it where it counts is important. COK, COC, hydrae and dragons are all fast and top priority targets for the enemy. In my experience of sledge hammer units (Chaos Knights), shooting tends to fix on these units over the bog standard slower infantry (Chaos Warriors when I used them). All of those DE units either have high armour, high toughness or both. With the right mix of units you can get stuck in with your numbers intact thanks to the low priority of killing infantry.

I've used Bloodcrushers in my daemons, and they don't have enough armour - as a result they're a sub-optimal unit because they can't take the inevitable punishment that comes their way (4+ armour and 5+ ward just isn't all that). As a result two flesh hounds are far superior than a single BC (primarily because you're buying 4 wounds for the price of 2).

[Danceman]

Other armies have the same average toughness and very few armies have access to heavy armour or better. Those armies that do often have this because of game balance and cost of said unit.
For example a chaos warrior cost quite abit and the army they are in doesnt really have what you'd call an impressive shooting phase and they are quite slow. Dwarfs got alot of armour and toughness but they sure need it because in almost all cases they are the ones that is going to get charged, also they have no cavalry or fast units bar the gyro.

DE on the other hand have everything. Monsters, magic, shooting and an exceptional close combat units. You're not especially fragile when comparing the cost and flexibility you get in your lists(and indeed the amount of models you now can field) to other armies out there. Most of your units/items are quite simply a real bargain and I would say some are just plain broken(by that I mean there is not a redeeming factor for the item nor merit to be in the game at all). So what happended to DE was cheaper units, more special rules, more units, no restrictions and some very very good magic items.

I am not sure how you can say that DE struggle in both combat and ranged when you excell at both aspects(and pretty much own the movement phase). Hatred is huge in combat. Armour penetrating shooting is pretty damn sweet as well. It scares the beard off my dwarfs, I kid you not. The effect may seem trivial but as a dwarf player every single bit of armour counts.

So basicaly, I am struggling to understand why S3 T3 is such a problem since the only unit you've got which actually only use their s3 is your basic warrior(which costs only 7pts with a shield!). The rest have multiple attacks, S4, special weapons and/or rules which makes they very hard in combat. I really think you're underestimating the significance of the hatred special rule.

[Cathel]

When my friend switched to High Elves I thought they are a problem for me because of ASF exactly catering to said T3 problem. It's not!
Close combat usually swings my way.
We do not have any problem in CC, shooting or magic. The biggest problem is deciding which area you want to pay how much points/attention.
And concerning movement, imo very important: we are the masters.

I don't know if broken is the right term and I can't compare with DoC or Vampires (never played them). In my oppinion Druchii are very powerful. Perhaps the most unnerving thing being the surprise factor what we bring. Since I do not play tourneys and have a limited number of gamers, I might not have the possibility to judge and have no frame for "broken".

We have a very strong book, hatred being the most powerfull addition.

[Bounce]

I think as people have pointed out Dark Elves can be very powerful and very destructive, however they can also fall apart very easily. Yes if you take Black Guard, Hydras a Dragon and a Manti the army is point and click but if instead you are relying on Dark Riders, Harpies, Shades, Warriors, Corsairs Witches, Executioners, Chariots etc. It is far from so and stupid mistakes will cost you the game.

This is why I think they aren't broken as someone who isn't a good player wont simply win all their games by playing Dark Elves.

On the other hand anyone can pick up a box of Demons and simply charge forward and obliterate stuff, its all a lot more straight forward when your troops dont run, ever.