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Mistress Saphiera's Blood Raiders ( 2250 ) 
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Joined: Mon May 22, 2006 2:13 am
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Level 4 Sorceress Saphiera, Sacrificial Dagger, Pearl of Bleakness, 2 scrolls 360
Death Hag Kiera with Cauldron of Blood, BSB 225

17 Spearmen 102 ( no shields necessary for my purposes)
10 Repeater Crossbows, shields 110
10 Repeater Crossbows, shields 110
5 Dark Riders, crossbows, musician 117
5 Dark Riders, crossbows, musician 117
5 Harpies 55
5 Harpies 55
12 Corsairs, standard, musician, Sea Serpent Standard 160

6 Cold One Knights, standard, musician, Banner of Cold Blood, 201
5 Cold One Knights, Full Command, Warbanner, Ring of Hotek 225
6 Shades, GW 108
10 Black Guard, 130

1 Hydra 175

Total: 2250
Model Count: 103
PD: 6 + dagger( usually 3-4)
DD: 4 + 2 scrolls


I've played quite a few games with a very close variation of this list but have only recently added the frenzied corsairs in the mix. Once I get some replies about the list I will detail how I play it. It hasn't lost yet though in probably something like 5 games or so.


EDITED: Forgot to list spears, they are now listed along with various army stats


Last edited by Entreri bloodletter on Sat Nov 21, 2009 12:28 am, edited 2 times in total.



Wed Nov 11, 2009 7:04 pm
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Highborn

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Ok so I see a few problems. I understand the Sorceress set up, it’s fairly standard. But you only have her as a lone lvl 4 and also a RoH in the army. Slightly counter productive in my view.

For one the Sorceress has a dagger, but where is she going to sit, in the RxB? That’s a fair idea apart from after a few turns of stabbing that unit is useless. You can’t stick her in the BG unit, they are too expensive to be killed by her and also to small to support her. You really need a 20-30man Spear unit. Big enough so that you can stab away happily and also big enough that if it needs to be taken out the opponent needs to commit to it.
Also with no magical back up to draw out dice you may see her becoming redundant in a more competitive environment.

Corsairs are a bit pricy, all you are doing is going to send them against lightly armoured troops, for less point you could get 14WE and I think they would perform better than Corsairs. Less survivability but more rewarding and fun to throw at an enemy. 14 WE still cheaper than 12 Corsairs so also option for a champ and maybe some more WE.

I my self am slowly falling in love with the CoB, Im running it at 1000 points and it is amazing. That said you do have a minimum amount of units I would buff, 2 CoK Units and a Hydra, I thin the BG are too small to do much. The Corsairs are subjective as they are really for lightly armoured stuff so KB is useless and a 6-7 frontage of attacks normally stops any attacks back. Meaning the CoB isn’t really needed to help them.

DR and Harpies are sound I run the same amount at 2k.

The RxB obviously one is for the lvl 4, I would drop one and get her some Spears for dagger fuel.

You have lots of hammers 11 CoK and a hydra, what will you use to hold units in place until you need to hit them? 10 BG wont do anything and unless you can bait the enemy into favourable positions and then get the stupidity passed at the right time I see you having a hard time killing anything.

You have a good ¼ of the army in your hammer units and though they will be running around the RoH unit dampens the lvl4s abilities and hinders a 360 points from achieving full potential.
Either go magic heavy or not, you can’t compete with a middle ground. Either 6-8 lvls of magic or magic defence and a hard hitting army.
The 2 CoK units are good but I would look at what will happen to the rest of the army If they cant do their jobs quickly.


Sat Nov 14, 2009 8:29 pm
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I believe I understand how you use this army.

5 shooters take care of anything light. The agile shooters make sure that nothing can hide from your shooting. Oh, that is nice against HE.

5 agile units allow you to dominate the movement, not forgetting 3 quite fast units. The opponent can't deal with all 8 units.
Also, during the deployment, you can spread them all over your starting line and wait to see your opponent's deployment.

In order to get the big game, you select anyone of the COB enhanced units. You provide usually +1 attack to shades or COK, or KB to hydra or corsairs; BG get either blessing. All these units rely on Active Combat Resolution. Therefore you don't need more than the first rank and the units can be kept small. The additional models are there only as spare.
Even if you don't break the enemy on the charge, you get usually the initiative on the opponent's turn, and the blessing is still active.

The level 4 takes Shadow Lore. She is likely to get the "unseen lurker" #5 move spell , the #6 "pit of shades" and, less interesting, the #4 "shades of death" fear/terror spell. She always take the #1 "steed of shadow" self-movement spell. Even #2 "creeping death" could be useful.
The dagger ensures she casts very often with IF, or at least with a very high value that the opponent can't dispel.
She is level 4 in order to have a wide spell selection and as a scroll caddy.

Then you've got a double movement for your blessed unit, which get the charge whichever the circumstances.
If such boost is not needed because the blessed unit can already charge, then it's another unit which gets such boost for a side charge (inluding DR and RXBmen).
Note that in turn 1, it is the harpies who get the move boost in order to get rid of one warmachine (or to trigger a scroll, which is nice, too).
Alternatively, as you have many units, it should be the opponent who gets to move first. Even if he is not getting close, you can charge him on turn 1: the COK have a quadruple move of 28", after all!

Now, the psychology. Two units cause terror and two more cause fear. In addition, three units are ITP. And, with Shadow or Death lores, you can get either COK unit to cause terror, should the need arise. Basically you don't care much about psychology.
In order not to care about stupidity, the RoH COK are in the middle of the army, where the ring covers pretty much every unit, and it works even if the unit goes stupid.
The other unit uses the Cold Blood in case you need to charge that turn.



Level 4 Sorceress Saphiera, Sacrificial Dagger, Pearl of Bleakness, 2 scrollsExcellent magic offense & defenseITP unitThe pearl is there to cancel the panic when running low on dagger fuel.
5 Harpies 55agile
5 Harpies 55agile
10 Repeater Crossbows, shields 110shooterOne shelters the sorceress. Both can go into a melee should the need arise.
10 Repeater Crossbows, shields 110shooter
5 Dark Riders, crossbows, musician 117agileshooter
5 Dark Riders, crossbows, musician 117agileshooter
6 Shades, GW 108agileshooterCOB enhanced
1 Hydra 175fastCOB enhancedterror
6 Cold One Knights, standard, musician, Banner of Cold Blood, 201fastCOB enhancedfear/terror
5 Cold One Knights, Full Command, Warbanner, Ring of Hotek 225quite fastCOB enhancedfear/terrormagic defense
12 Corsairs, standard, musician, Sea Serpent Standard 160COB enhancedITPThe best to take care of horde units. If there are some, then 4 attacks each should do marvels.
10 Black Guard, 130COB enhancedstubborn/ITP
Death Hag Kiera with Cauldron of Blood, BSB 225terrorstubbornThe BSB is there in case BG, COK or CoB loose combat: COK are well protected and should'nt loose by much, and BG & CoB are stubborn. All have good Ld.



As I see it:
You take Shadow Lore, with all movement spells.
When you deploy, the opponent has less units to place, so you can place your "charge in turn 1" units in the good spot.
Whoever begins doesn't matter.
Your turn 1, the COB provides +1 attack to the 6 COK, they use their banner, move forwards, then you cast the moving spell on them, adding a dagger boost in order to cast it with high value or IF. That is one opponent unit dead.
Alternatively, the same trick can be done with the skirmishing shades or the hydra.
Meanwhile, the army moves forwards.
5 COK provide the ring's cover to many units (including the long line of RXBmen in which the sorceress is shelterd). On each side, corsairs and BG.
DR and harpies are envoeloping the enemy's flanks. Occasionally, they could get the COB & double-move trich to get rid of something not too much protected.
That is one dead opponent unit each turn guaranteed.

If ever the sorceress gets in trouble, she casts herself away very reliably. This is why no unit have champion: they are not useful to protect their liege.




My first thought was to give the sorceress the Focus Familiar instead of the dagger, and to mount her on a Steed.
Now that I understand (I believe) how you use the Shadow magic and need it to be reliable, well, you can keep the dagger, that is for 1 stab per turn in average: you'll cast 1 spell per turn usually but very, very reliable.
No need for a large unit of spears, contrary to what Katon Edios suggested, because of your very specific combo COB + magic move.
I am wondering, though, what all of this becomes if you don't get the appropriate movement spell. Is pit of shades enough?


Your army is balanced, extremely redundant and reliable in the magic, shooting, melee, movement and psychology phases.
It has a MSU flavour.
Possibly one drawback is that you've got no magic weapon at all. That might hurt when facing ehtereal units.

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Sat Nov 14, 2009 9:51 pm
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Entreri Bloodletter wrote:
Level 4 Sorceress Saphiera, Sacrificial Dagger, Pearl of Bleakness, 2 scrolls
Death Hag Kiera with Cauldron of Blood, BSB 225

10 Repeater Crossbows, shields 110
10 Repeater Crossbows, shields 110
5 Dark Riders, crossbows, musician 117
5 Dark Riders, crossbows, musician 117
5 Harpies 55
5 Harpies 55
12 Corsairs, standard, musician, Sea Serpent Standard 160

6 Cold One Knights, standard, musician, Banner of Cold Blood, 201
5 Cold One Knights, Full Command, Warbanner, Ring of Hotek 225
6 Shades, GW 108
10 Black Guard, 130

1 Hydra 175


I've played quite a few games with a very close variation of this list but have only recently added the frenzied corsairs in the mix. Once I get some replies about the list I will detail how I play it. It hasn't lost yet though in probably something like 5 games or so.


I like it.

I would thin out the CoKs to free up some points, getting rid of their command and banners. Witches are stubborn within 12" of the CoB so could replace the BG, they are also better than corsairs but you have run out of slots. 2 units of witches, and unit of shades and a single bigger unit of 8 CoK would be my solution - getting rid of the RoH as it limits your own spells on the unit.. I would increase the size of the the shades to 8/9 so they can make better use of the CoB.

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Wed Nov 18, 2009 6:36 am
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Joined: Mon May 22, 2006 2:13 am
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Well first of all thanks for all the replies, there's some good points in there and some others that I will address.

First, my Level 4 Sorceress is deployed with the spears for easy cannon fodder/dagger fuel. I have experimented with the lvl 4 inside a larger unit of spears with all the stops, FC, Warbanner etc... but have found the results unsatisfactory. For me, at least in my area I need more than just the static combat res, the spears usually need a combat character to compete. Since I have cut about 100 points from not using a larger unit I was able to keep other units combat worthy.

My strategy with the high sorceress is this: if I was already going to spend 180 points on a scroll caddy( I opt for the lvl 2 to spam 4 dice on a spell and occasionally get one off) why not spend a few more points to get a heavy/meduim magic phase for the points of a much less expensive phase. With the setup I currently use I regularly compete with high (8-12pd) magic armies and dominate single caddy armies, and often come up on top after I've killed a few mages. This setup allows for both offensive and defensive capabilities in one neat package. In the last 3-4 games I've played I don't think the spearmen have seen combat except maybe once and only after I evacuated the sorceress out. I advance the unit in the beginning to get in range for spells and then let the rest of the army surround the flanks and envelope the center, ensuring that the spears stay out of harms way. Plus, the unit is so cheap I don't feel bad for not engaging them in combat.

As for the ring, I deploy it on the flanks with a hydra and some fast elements as support. That way that section of the army, which is highly mobile and dangerous is protected from the majority of deadly spells. At the same time it allows me to concentrate defense on a much smaller part of my army that would be normal.

The corsairs I am unsure about, they do seem kind of expensive for their capabilities but I'll need more playtesting to determine whether or not I will keep them. I have used witches in the past and liked them but switched them out for some additional shooting with shades.

So far I haven't had many problems with the CoK units, I have enough screeners and fast elements that they almost always get to where they need to go. And I have the Banner of Cold Blood as insurance for the all-important charge. A few times they have been shot up but even with diminished numbers they are still deadly on the charge with the blessing. And Ld 9 is pretty reliable( not amazing but good) when it comes to stupidity.

The black guard I am also experimenting with, usually I run 15 of them with FC, Crimson Death and ASF. That unit is pretty much unstoppable against nearly everything. However, in an attempt to seem more friendly I'm trying the 10 naked BG. They can still hold a charge- not too many things can kill all 10 in one go, this allows me to countercharge. And if I do get the charge with or without the blessing they can still make a mess of many units out there. Cutting down on the cost let me pay for the corsair unit, and if you can't tell I'm a huge fan of lots of units. But again, this could be subject to change.

@ Calisson

I actually hadn't thought of using shadow lore, but you are right it could be a great asset to this army. Double moves everywhere and moving my sorceress out if she gets in trouble is a good strategy. One problem with your strategy is only relying on IF, not a great plan IMO but it could work or it might draw some scrolls, both are useful. Normally I don't think of shadow because I play against elves and other high initiative armies so pit of shades is relatively useless. But it will definitely be something to try. Thanks! Usually I make the most of my spears as powerdice- I tend to sacrifice 3-4 a turn which makes my phase very potent, I don't have the intention of having the spears survive the battle or even engage in combat. No magic weapon could definitely hurt, hopefully my magic will be enough to help with that score otherwise I could be in trouble.

Whew, that was long, hopefully its not too tedious :lol:


Fri Nov 20, 2009 8:14 pm
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Entreri Bloodletter wrote:

First, my Level 4 Sorceress is deployed with the spears for easy cannon fodder/dagger fuel.


Ummm.... What spears? Your list dosen't include any.

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Sat Nov 21, 2009 12:20 am
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Joined: Mon May 22, 2006 2:13 am
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Rabidnid wrote:
Entreri Bloodletter wrote:

First, my Level 4 Sorceress is deployed with the spears for easy cannon fodder/dagger fuel.


Ummm.... What spears? Your list dosen't include any.



Oops! :oops:

I completely forgot to put those in. They are included in the points I just forgot to add them in the list. I'll edit it in. Any other comments lol?


Sat Nov 21, 2009 12:25 am
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Entreri Bloodletter wrote:
Oops! :oops:

I completely forgot to put those in. They are included in the points I just forgot to add them in the list. I'll edit it in. Any other comments lol?


Other than Calisson's shadow magic not working with RoH in one of the CoK units, it looks a very workable list. GW or AHW on the shades means they will benefit more from a blessing if the opportunity presents itself.

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Sat Nov 21, 2009 12:47 am
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