what do you do when the army isnt producing? what to do now?

How to beat those cowardly High Elves?

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Etancross
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what do you do when the army isnt producing? what to do now?

Post by Etancross »

Ok guys i'm starting to wonder about Dark Elves now…

Before I took a break from Fantasy and went to 40k for a few years, I was playing Orc’s and Vampires and I could consistently win games with both, with orcs I would say out of every ten game I could win 4 to 6 against other good fantasy players, and with Vamp’s I could win 5 to 6. While playing 40k the new Dark Elves hit and I loved the modles so much that I said “When I start playing fantasy again i'm playing dark elves” I researched them a bit but not a lot.

Well i'm pretty hard core back into fantasy and it has not been an easy transition back; the old tactics are coming back to me slowly but surly plus a lot of new tactics. I'm setting up flank/rear charges, baiting units around the board, using misdirection and actually for the most parts getting the combats I want but from then on, i'm being CONSTANTLY let down.

I've won 1 game since i've started playing again with dark elves and lost something like 10 – 11 and good lord most of them haven’t even been close! I've been getting beaten to the point where things have been over the top embarrassing.

For instance I got a charge on a unit of knoblars with spearmen, I was thinking I would easily break this unit and run the down which would open up a flank charge to my opponents unit that had his butcher on the end. Now I hit the unit of knoblars and what do you think happened? I killed ONE on the charge, they killed 3 spearmen in return, I was effen shocked….

I get lucky and hold so my flanking spearmen have no choice but to hit the knoblars in the flank, I say “sweet”! “ill hit that unit, over run into the other unit and can still get that butcher, surly last round was a fluke” Now what do you think happened? Now ONLY did I flank charges KNOBLARS!

I outnumbered him and he won combat and ran down a unit with a sorceress…. Not only that, in the same game a Hydra charged his “HERO” a brute? And got hacked to pieces inside of 2 rounds of combat.

When I play against Empire i'm getting beaten even WORSE because everything is being shot to PIECES with his cannon/hellblaster/ or mortar and then as everything is thinned down and close to dead he THEN moves forward with 1+ knights that I can’t kill, he takes ONE magic user that has as many power dice as me brining 2 sorceress’s, and WRECKS me with magic.

My shooting is a total TOTAL joke, has never made any kind of difference, and my magic has been a bigger disappointment than finding out there is no santa clause.... Heres a good example of that, 2 BT's and 25+ crossbowmen killed 2 knights before they charged a BT... thats over 62+ shots that killed 2 knights... WTF?

Every game I played with the dark elves has been an embarrassing rollercoaster of shame and fail and i've been left with dirt on my face and smoke coming out of my ears. I know some people will come in and say “tactics this and tactics that” blah blah blah, but I AM using good tactics and getting my ass kicked….

Mater of fact I came to the conclusion of “ok I don’t know how to make lists that are any good so i'm going to see what other people take and see what happens”. So I tried theses lists:

http://www.druchii.net/viewtopic.php?t=64934

http://druchii.net/viewtopic.php?t=64675

and i've been tabled with both of them…. I mean like I said I wasn’t expecting to come back and start winning right away, but what do you do when you are using good tactics to get the fights you want, have ton’s of shooting but its doing nothing, have a lot of good magic but it does nothing and are constantly losing combats to units you should be crushing?

I'm getting beaten to the point where its just straight up laugh out loud embarrassing and i'm starting to wonder if that was 300+ bucks thrown away? I mean even the guys that have been crushing me have said “yea man I don’t understand”, “your deployment looked good, lots of good shooting and magic” I don’t even understand what happened, its like nothing worked”.

and this has been the story….. i'm sure I have NOT played every game perfectly i'm not gonna say that at all but now i'm getting beaten because units just aren’t doing what their supposed to do.

So what do I do now?
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Post by Calisson »

Bad luck wont last forever.
Spearmen suck in melee, they are good mostly for cheap static combat resolution, not for kills.
Empire knights are a pain.
Shooting hardly ever destroys whole units, it is meant to deplete them and get rid of light troops. You take care of big blocks with elite troops in melee.


What is your army now? Is it still like there? It lacked agile troops, IIRC.
Which army list did you build from that?
How do you play them?
Also, did you read the D.R.A.I.C.H. articles about the units you play? What went wrong with the adcice you had?
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Post by Etancross »

At this point i'm just trying to find something that works, so I don’t have a list set in stone so i'm just trying everything, i've tried magic heavy, i've tried gun (bow)lines, I only have one hydra assembled but i've tried that and multiple BT’s etc.

The only staples in my list are 2 – 3 units of harpies which I use to march block and charge warmachine crews, and bait charges to open up flanks, blackguard because they are the most powerful useful unit we have, 2 units of crossbowmen, and a super lord/master on cold one.

I tried darkriders, they didn’t do anything but die, I would LOVE to use shades more but the last two times I tried them they were killed by magic (irresistible firespell) and gunfire, and the rest of the list has constantly changed cause i'm just ready to see something work SOMETHING. I won one game, but I played a few things kind of wrong that would have really mad a difference towards the end; I would like to just convincingly win ONE game and try to find something to build on because I am WAAAAAAAY past frustrated, I have read the D.R.A.I.C.H articles, i've read battle reports, a few times during the day i've closed my office door and practiced better ways to use harpies and bait units around the board and now I have NO idea why i'm losing!

The only things that have consistently come through for me have been,

Harpies, the PoK… and that’s about it.
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Post by Auere »

You may have been unlucky - you may have faced very good opponents... You know that better yourself. There is really nothing wrong with the two lists you have run there. I like the first one very much!

Here are some ideas from my previous games:

1) Master BSB with heavy armour, sea dragon cloak, lance, dark steed, enchanted shield and pendant of khaeleth. He is a nightmare for MSU and shooting armies.

2) Dark Riders are best naked at 85 points.

3) Cold one Knights are best naked at 135 points.

4) Dark elf magic is proberbly overrated and often not really competative.

5) The War Hydra is proberbly undercosted for what it does, and it will often absorb a dispropionate amount of attention.

6) YES. Harpies are THAT good! 2-3x5 are a must.

7) Crossbowmen are pretty good with shield and musician, although very unreliable! Place them near the bolt throwers.

8) Dont take executioners. Black Guards are better.

9) Assassins are a bit overrated. I do not use them any more.

10) Do not expect alot of damage from RBTs.
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Post by Kotbg86 »

The following is only to offer advice and is by no means meant to be harsh, please take it as constructive criticism:

Don't take this the wrong way but it sounds like the DE army doesn't fit your style of play. I don't mean to discourage you and if you enjoy dark elves by all means don't listen to me. I only say this because I have a friend who went through a similar problem but with his Warriors of Chaos. He tried everything he possibly could with them, even took the meanest list he could think of and tried ones that people would consider "tournament standard" for them but he just couldn't win. Now he plays Wood Elves and is doing much much better with them and he is actually enjoying himself again. He says the feel of the army fits him better than his Warriors ever did.

As far as any advice i can give on DEs think about what your favorite thing is, be it CC, Shooting, magic, etc... and try to do something that fits your style. I myself barely use Dark Riders or Harpies because in my experiences they haven't been as useful in the lists I have run, to each his own.

What models do you have at your disposal, we can help ya a little better if we know what it is you use.

PS - Sometimes the dice are just against you man. =/
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Post by Camaris »

Though KotBG86 may be right, I think the problem may be that you're just trying to go from 40k thinking to fantasy thinking. The reason I say this, is cause I was the opposite. I played fantasy non-stop for about two years, and then decided to go back into 40k. When I started playing 40k, not only did I lose, I got massacred; I remember there were games, where turn 3 would end and I'd have a support unit of spiders left, while the entire enemy army was sitting across the field, relatively unscathed. The reason for this is cause I was using fantasy tactics to attempt to win a 40k game. Once I figured this out, my game got a whole lot better. Therefore, i would recommend playing a few more games and trying to ammend your tactics before you make the decision to switch armies.
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Post by Layne »

And just a couple more points of reference to ask - are you playing friendly games, in-store games, tourneys, what? And if it's friendly games, tell us about the sort of terrain in use.

Also I don't think you should put too much stock in anything Auere said... what units are right for you will depend entirely on what you want to do. Once we work out what you were trying to do - and your first post gives the impression, you were trying to do what Dark Elves do best - we can work out what units you need. KOTBG86 may well be right, the units you need might be in a different book.

But I doubt it, it sounds like you like the way we operate, but perhaps don't quite understand it. You've been having problems with getting shot to bits, for instance ; you will get that. Only a Hydra and to a lesser extent a Cauldron, and lesser again, your Cold Ones, can really expect to weather much shooting. Leave them out in the open without much fear ; anything else will undoubtedly be shot to bits, unless all the shooty types are already dead.

Dark Elves move around pretty quick, it's true ; this is our greatest advantage. But they will never be free to move while your enemy still has ranged attacks, be they mundane or magical - so you really need to remove those first. DR and Shades are both really quite good at this - Shades especially. they start close, have better BS, and can be pretty nasty in combat too if you like, and choose you enemies carefully. They really do shred bowmen and artillery men pretty good either way.

And you said you didn't like how your Spears bounced off gnoblars. That can happen, the dice don't need to go all that far against you. It's likely that gnoblars will start combat well ahead on SCR, and it's not particularly likely that either side will actually score a kill, so it's likely that you'll lose. Your block vs his block is not really how Warhammer works.. It's supposed to be, your block vs his block vs your flanking unit = you win.

The idea is, you have a flanking unit and he doesn't ; you destroyed his flanking unit, but not he yours. This is because you, as a Dark Elf, have several excellent choices of units that can destroy his flanking type troops, especially if you set up favourable circumstances for them to do so - and there is no better troop type in Warhammer for setting up favourable circumstances than Harpies. Shades, Dark Riders, Corsairs with or without handbows, Cold One Knights, Chariots, small groups of Witches or Execs, these things are great at going against your enemy's small units, and then marching onwards to outflank his big units.

You might have difficulty with Daemons or Vampires all the same ; Vampires you normally need to tailor your list for, as there are a number of things in our list that simply won't do any good there ; and Daemons tend not to have any soft troops for you to pick apart. The same can be said for Warriors - but their dead hard troops are expensive enough that it isn't such a big problem.

It's knowing how each unit does this, and getting them to do it that way, that makes a good plan.
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Post by Calisson »

I second Layne with following nuances:

- the units you need might be in a different book.
=> DE being so versatile, it is doubtful that you can't find your style with DE. There are so many styles! The only common attitude for all DE is cunning aggressivity.

In addition to the shooting resistant units:
- Hydra > Cauldron > Cold Ones Knights
=> the Cold One Chariot is much more sturdy than COK, albeit less than Hydra - except when there are S7 attacks.


A suggestion which may - or may not - fit your playing style:
Skulls Tournament Report 2250 Comped (long)


Your testimony backs up the feeling that DE, with all its power, requires a learning curve before expressing its full potential. It's definitively not a "point & click" army.


I'm sure that druchii.net can help you.
It did for me (and the upgrade of army book, too 8) ).
Last edited by Calisson on Tue Mar 23, 2010 9:35 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Post by Auere »

People are making it sound like a philosofical thing to play whf; The army should fit you, the units should fit you, maybe you have just not found your right place, the gods were against you...

In my opinion, warhammer is a very concrete game.

You need to understand the game mechanics fully. After that you need to make a few mistakes with each unit - in short you need to find out what they do good and what they do bad - it usually takes quite a few games! Then you need to know your foe. Both his army and his gameplan. This is a bit like a pokergame.

Finally you really need to be a good matematician. If you are banging a 150 point spearmen unit into a 70 point unit of gnoblars with a 70% chance of winning, it is proberbly a bad choice, unless you are willing to loose that spearmen unit, and your gameplan will hold up no matter what outcome. Unluck will strike you! Always at the worst possible time. This is why I do not play death stars.

Keep your heads high. Armies like Dark Elves have a alot of possible strengths but also alot of possible weaknesses. If you are playing against good opponents, losses are to be expected when you have just started with a new army.
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Post by Red... »

I know its unorthodox, but maybe try playing another army for a few weeks?

I started playing WHFB just over a year ago, and picked DE as my main army (by pure chance). At first I had a lot of mixed luck with them: initial massacres and strong losses turned to regular minor losses, draws and minor wins. But I struggled to go the extra mile and start winning regularly with strong wins and massacres.

I then switched for a bit to play dwarves. The little stunties had everything I wishes for with my dark elves: high toughness, reliable leadership, awesome war machines and strength 4 missile weapons. But they lacked one thing: speed. I was immediately quite good with them: securing draw and draw, but the movement thing was a real bummer (game of "spin the dwarf" anyone?)

I recently migrated back to my dark elves again and - having played a radically different army - I suddenly understood all the strengths I had: very powerful and fast cavarly (both fast cavalry and cold ones), very good magic protection, awesome bait and flee troops, etc. Since then I've been winning games regularly with strong wins and massacres, even against some of the nastiest opponents in the game (vampire counts, daemons, etc).

So, one thing I do recommend is trying another army, if only to get a reminder of what things make Dark Elves incredible, so that you can take that knowledge, experience and new ideas back to your game playing when you pick DE up again :)
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Post by Borog »

I second what Red said, maybe you can try to switch army with your opponent and fight your own army for a change? That might give you a feeling of your own armys strenght and weaknesses.

It seems like you've had some really bad luck as well though, not really much to to about that, but it's bound to turn around sooner or later!
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Post by Tethlis »

The switch from 40k to Fantasy can be brutal. I lost virtually every game after the transition, because the concept of static versus active combat resolution was something that 40k didn't have.
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Post by Red... »

Thanks Borog :)

i'm getting beaten because units just aren’t doing what their supposed to do.


Sorry, just another add on. I've found that the key with warhammer - and for dark elves in particular - is to only allow yourself to get engaged in fights that you absolutely can not lose.

Why? Well, because the odds often do fail and let you down. I've seen a host of catastrophic failures in the short period I've been playing WHFB, including
A keeper of secrets manage a single wound against my cold ones (all but one of their 5 or 6 attacks missed)
A von carstein lord hit with two of his four attacks, then roll double ones
A high elf hero with a star lance, leading a silver helm charge against my corsairs fail to hit once and have the unit broken due to SCR.
My WoC Daemon Prince charge a unit of static lizardmen cavalry and get broken, despite being stubborn, and running off the board.
The list goes on.

The only way, in my opinion, to win is to line up combats where even if you fluff most of your dice rolls, you still win out. So, for example, I currently run a unit of 7-9 dark riders with full command (usually on my flank), led by a battle standard bearer with hydra banner. The hero gets 4 WS6 hatred S6 attacks, followed by the four front rank dudes who get 9 WS4 hatred S4 attacks and the horses who get 10 WS3 S3 attacks. That's a whopping 23 attacks, 4 of which are at S6. And I make sure I charge them in only favourable circumstances (e.g. flank attacks or against weedy opponents).

When fighting against Rommel, Field Marshal Montgomery devised the 3:1 ratio - that is, the British would only fight their opponents if they had a local superiority of at least 3x as many troops as their opponent (quite worryingly this is still the bastion of modern british army doctrine, but that's a different story...). I'm not saying that you need to do anything like that, but what I do think you should be aiming for - as others have indicated - is to pick your battles so that you have odds that are so heavily in your favour that you really really can not lose.

As a final note: I personally find both DE magic and missiles too unreliable and rarely take either (unless I know I'm facing a fellow dark elf!). Hard hitting melee and cavalry (supported by the good old ring of hotek) is the way for me,

That's my personal preference! I notice from your posts that you've been using both missile heavy and magic heavy.

Try this for an interesting experience: take 1 unit of 20 warriors (with sorceress with pearl of infinite bleakness), 1 unit of 18 corsairs (with sea serpent banner), 1 unit of 14 black guard, 1 unit of witch elves, 1 unit of 5 cold one knights and 2 units of dark riders (without crossbows) and send them full tilt across the board at your opponent. You might still lose, but it will give you a good idea of the hard hitting melee potential and nastiness of our easy-to-make immune to psych forces!

Anyway, I'll stop my super long ramble here, hope some of its helpful :)
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Post by Etancross »

I’m defiantly NOT one of those people who comes in saying “this sucks and that sucks and this blows and blah blah”, ill try to explain in detail what’s been going on for me so you guys can maybe point out what i'm not doing, what i'm forgetting or maybe just throw some good advice my way cause i'm at wit’s end and ready to fling these models at the wall sometimes.

I'm apart of 2 gaming clubs but lately i've been gaming a lot more with club A which meets up and plays several times a week; We use friendly strong lists (meaning you will see strong units and builds but no one would bust out 2 – 3 steam tanks) to very strong tournament level lists. Like i've said i've played fantasy before so I know game mechanics and tactics (or so I thought).

I've traditionally used units that were melee heavy and had some strong characters that would do a lot of damage in close combat (like a strong vampire lord, or a kick butt warboss).

I would like to take more advantage of the Dark Elves speed because i'm not used to having this kind of speed at hand, so it would be nice to maybe utilize a lot more shooting and maybe be more effective with magic because even with blackguard with full command, bsb, and a lord/master with them most of the time I end up either just tying maybe winning combat or losing combat by one or two.

I wasn’t expecting spearmen to be devastating buttkickers but I thought they would be closer to striking scorpions than to guardians so I would try to give them the armor piercing banner to give them a little more umph! I try to use them to support the Black Guard and “try” to keep them in a position so if anything charges the blackguard or they get the charge, they can get into the fight to help out.

That hasn’t worked because they usually break, or get whupped in combat and break or just do nothing. I would love to run one of those lists with like 60 – 80+ spearmen but I just don’t see how it would work.

For Magic I usually take 2 lv 2 Sorceress’s one with Sac Dagger and a scroll, the other with DS cloak and a scroll, depending on what other units I take they usually end up in a big block of spearmen (for the sac dagger) or in a unit of Crossbowmen (for the nondagger).

Dark Elf magic has never done a single good thing for me, not one thing and I have a vampire counts army that i've done well with in the past so I know what its like and again wasn’t expecting it to be a lawnmower “BUT” was expecting “SOMETHING”; but in the end its been nothing but a huge huge disappointment so I can speak for it or say a single good thing about it.

Lore of Metal/fire has been a huge help especially the transfiguration spell, it has come through quite a few times, and the lore of fire is always something that’s an eye opener or puts a bit of worry on my opponents face but that’s really just about it.

In one of the lists I listed above with all the shades, I was hoping that list would come through and maybe Shades were something that would work well for me. I deployed them in forest terrain 2” in, The empire player went first so he was able to move a unit of archers in an arch around that side of the forest so they couldn’t really do much and they ended up after all their shooting killing 2 archers out of a 5 archer unit, then seven of them ended up getting blasted by a fire spell and the rest ran off the board (after I failed leadership tests).

The time I tried Dark Riders it was also against the empire and to tell the truth I find harpies to be MUCH MUCH better (or they work for me better anywayz) because honestly for 4 turns the dark riders were completely ignored and managed to do ONE round worth of march blocking and then ended up having to charge a unit of knights to try and save a bolt thrower and just as i'm sure everyone here knows, it was like throwing chipmunks in a blender.

I tried a Hydra a few times, against Ogres it wasn’t worth taking because I scorched a unit with its breath attack several times and didn’t kill anything but because their units charge soooo far it got in contact with a model that beat it with no trouble at all and didn’t even take a wound in return and it was just an Ogre hero of some sort.

The time I took it against empire, it was pretty much shoot down to two wounds before it got into combat where it was doing very well but it was at the end of the game so if you look at the over all of what its done I can’t really say its been great… its killed a unit of empire spearmen and hand gunners inside one round of combat which “technically” places it above my spearmen and crossbowmen but that is far from great.

That’s pretty much been my experience so far, we use sevearl pieces of terrain, 2 forests and usually a ruin, 2 - 3 hills etc.
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Post by Red... »


I wasn’t expecting spearmen to be devastating buttkickers but I thought they would be closer to striking scorpions than to guardians so I would try to give them the armor piercing banner to give them a little more umph! I try to use them to support the Black Guard and “try” to keep them in a position so if anything charges the blackguard or they get the charge, they can get into the fight to help out.

That hasn’t worked because they usually break, or get whupped in combat and break or just do nothing. I would love to run one of those lists with like 60 – 80+ spearmen but I just don’t see how it would work.


An assassin with rune of khaine (and manbane if you're against high toughness foes) usually adds a nice kicker. But spears are a tarpit unit, not a melee powerhouse.


2 level 2s is too weak in magic to be of any use, but too many points to be worth it. I'd either take a level 4 and 2 level 2s (with black staff, dagger and DS cloak) or 1 level 1 scroll caddy and the ring of hotek.

Shades were something that would work well for me.


Shades are very specialist: if they get shot at, magicked or lose the charge then they are mince. I'd avoid them until you're more skilled with the more mainstay components of the DE panolopy.
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Post by Gruff »

With all due respect, from what you've told us about how you used your units, you used them pretty much completely wrong. :P


I wasn’t expecting spearmen to be devastating buttkickers but I thought they would be closer to striking scorpions than to guardians so I would try to give them the armor piercing banner to give them a little more umph!


Spearmen, as has been mentioned, are not hard hitting combat troops. They're SCR generators and good bunkers for sorceresses. Charging with a unit of spearmen will give you a very underwhelming 5 (6 with champ) str 3 attacks. That won't kill anything. However, a unit of 20 spearmen with full command and a Warbanner (instead of Banner of Murder) will generate 6 SCR (3 for ranks, 1 for outnumber, 1 for banner, 1 for Warbanner). Again, spearmen will never win anything by killing stuff and should be used to shelter sorceresses or to provide SCR to a fight. This can be done by using them as a tarpit and waiting for a support unit to help out or by including an Assassin in the unit to get some kills.

For Magic I usually take 2 lv 2 Sorceress’s one with Sac Dagger and a scroll, the other with DS cloak and a scroll


2 lvl 2s is both too little and too much. Too little for an effective magic phase and too much for pure magic defense. However, DE CAN use 2 lvl 2s better than most armies. You can fairly easily pour all of your power dice into 1 spell each for each sorceress each turn and hope to pull off an irresistable force. Risky and not guaranteed, but it does allow your small amount of magic to have some impact.

Lore of Metal/fire has been a huge help especially the transfiguration spell, it has come through quite a few times, and the lore of fire is always something that’s an eye opener or puts a bit of worry on my opponents face but that’s really just about it.


Those are both good lores, but the DE lore is probably the BEST pure damage lore in the game. If you're not having much success and would like magic to have more of an impact, it's probably because you're not putting enough points into your magic phase. Even having a lvl 4 and 1 level 2 will bulk up the phase significantly. That's what I usually run and while you won't dominate magic on turns 1-3, you'll usually have pretty free rein in the second half of the game, once you've sucked out scrolls and killed a mage or two of his.

Shades are fragile, fragile, fragile. And very expensive. However, they are skirmishers and have a ballistic skill of 5. In your example, you took the bait and exposed your Shades for very little possible benefit. Don't do that. Nobody is forcing you to leave the woods and shoot at a low-value target. Make the moves that YOU want to make with troops like Shades.

Dark Riders are absolutely dominant flank troops. Fast cav combined with repeater crossbows is head and shoulders above most other comparable light cav/flank troops. What other unit can march 18" and then shoot another 24" with armour-piercing multishots? Sure, they're not going to destroy an entire unit of Plaguebearers, but they should be able to do a good job at helping you control the movement phase by eliminating your opponent's flank troops.

The Hydra against Ogres is a bit of a bad match-up, in that 1) The flame template is useless against 40mm bases (what did you get, 3 partial hits? Maybe one full hit and 2 partials?). 2) Ogre heroes are stronger than lords for many other armies. An Ogre Bruiser (hero) has 5 wounds, toughness 5, and can very easily have str 7 (or higher). The Hydra will still probably win most times, but the Bruiser will definitely win now and then. That being said, if you charge your Hydra into a unit of naked Bulls, you'll wreck them every time.

I hope that helps a little bit. From what you've said, I think you need a bit more experience and to play to the strengths of your units a bit more. Also, don't throw away your troops. Charging your Dark Riders into 1+ heavy cav to try to protect your bolt thrower is only going to end up costing you your bolt thrower AND your Dark Riders. Try to avoid making sacrifices just for the sake of doing something. Sometimes your units are going to die no matter what you do. Accept the losses and move on. Who knows what that unit of Dark Riders might have accomplished somewhere else on the board?

I would also try to borrow someone else's army for a game or two, as has been suggested. You'll learn so much about the game and about your strengths and weaknesses by trying something new.
Last edited by Gruff on Tue Mar 23, 2010 7:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Creedence
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Post by Creedence »

It is not the army that is not producing it is the dice. I recommend that you take them outside and line them all up in a semi circle. Select a dice and place it in the middle of the semi circle. Proceed to hit the "Example" with a hammer. Threaten the remaining dice accordingly.
Once you deal with your dice you should then be able to defeat gnoblars.

Honestly it sounds like a rough run of luck. It happens sometimes.
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Etancross
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Post by Etancross »

Thanks for the advice and kind words guys, i'm going to keep trying but I have GOT to say it is VERY discouraging to play some games and just consistently get embarrassed. Even if playing with friends and you keep getting beaten so badly it looks like you can’t hold your own at all and then the beating gets to the point where it looks like you’ve never even said the word fantasy.
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Calisson
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Post by Calisson »

In warhammer, only Static Combat Resolution and movement are certain, and movement does not kill foes.
You can help reduce SCR with side charges, though.

Everything else is fancy.
- Shooting is rather weak, and, if not in huge amounts, it can be statistically uncertain.
- Magic is very, very fancy: you don't know which spell you'll get, if you'll cast them, if they will be dispelled. It can be very powerful, but more often it achieves not much.
- Even melee Active Combat Resolution is fancy: you easily can fluff even many very powerful attacks.

However,
- Druchii can multishoot more than the other races, resulting in more shots, therefore closer to the average. Still low effect, but more reliable.
- Druchii sorceresses can cast with unlimited dice. This means that with a single level 2, you can cast with all 4 dice, makintg it difficult to dispell. With a Level 4 and a Level 2, each cast with 4 dice a single spell, you're sure to pass one of them. Not forgetting that a level 4 has most spells available to choose from. Also, Dark Lore has mostly useful spells.
- With hatred, Druchii melee is more reliable than any other races.
- let alone that a higher Ld helps as well.

Something else which is certain is movement: you don't roll dice. And Druchii movement is superior, especially with DR and even more harpies (but harpies suck in melee).


The difficulty with elves is that they are frail for most of them.

If you could combine freely a superior movement, dense shooting, rather reliable magic and most reliable ACR, you would win all games (and spoil the fun, too). Unfortunately, it would become too expensive, so you're also vulnerable to magic and shooting, and you lack numbers to soak hits and get static combat resolution.

There is a choice to make. Luckily, the choicce is yours, it is not commended by the army book:
- To get some numbers and SCR with spearmen - but you need something else to get ACR: assassin, hero..., and you'll lack movement.
- To get shooting and magic in sufficient density to achieve results. But you won't have much else.
- To get the most of the movement with many DRs and harpies. You'll dominate the movement but any shooting or magic will hurt you.
- To get elite SCR. The trouble is that they can be easily destroyed at distance.
- To get a bit of everything, in a balanced army. You won't excel in any phase.


With the maneuvering qualities you're claiming, the trouble you have is the reliability of your troops.
I may suggest you the following army, based on a solid core of reliable infantry, as you know how to use them.

I suggest you took several BG units, and had a BSB in vicinity.
These make incredible tar pits.
You need the RoH and a scroll caddy to reduce the risk of adverse magic.
You need as many corsair RHB screens as you have BG to reduce the shooting liability.
You need a CoB to provide more reliability where it is most required.
You need DR to be able to side-charge on foes tar pitted on your BG (and avoid everything else). Take harpies, too, they are going to take out warmachines.
For rares, I suggest either two hydras or 4 RBTs. Hydra are very resistant and provide nice flankers. 4 RBTs are reliable.
If you go for hydras, use them to shield your own troops. They can get close to the opponent and breathe, it's often better than just charging.
If they are charged, they will loose to SCR. This is when they need the BSB and the general not far.
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Thanatoz
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Post by Thanatoz »

If you still have your other armies somewhere stuffed away, I guess it's time to break them out and play a few against dark elfs if you know any good players. Try to think beforehand what you'd do, and then watch what the other player does. Also take a look at the army selection.

If his style doesn't differ much from yours, and you're doing nothing wrong, you'll at least get to know the weaknesses of the dark elfs a bit better, and can think about minimizing them.

At least you'll be able to pinpoint if it's you or the dice ;). Or maybe they just aren't your style.
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Kotbg86
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Post by Kotbg86 »

The time I tried Dark Riders it was also against the empire and to tell the truth I find harpies to be MUCH MUCH better (or they work for me better anywayz) because honestly for 4 turns the dark riders were completely ignored and managed to do ONE round worth of march blocking and then ended up having to charge a unit of knights to try and save a bolt thrower and just as i'm sure everyone here knows, it was like throwing chipmunks in a blender.

My opinon on that situation is to just let the bolt thrower die, if they are that far into your lines already move everything out of the way and set up better shots or charges as those knights come back from the over run or their reforming, cause they probably can't see anything after they take out your Bolt Thrower.
Dark Elf magic has never done a single good thing for me, not one thing and I have a vampire counts army that i've done well with in the past so I know what its like and again wasn’t expecting it to be a lawnmower “BUT” was expecting “SOMETHING”; but in the end its been nothing but a huge huge disappointment so I can speak for it or say a single good thing about it.


Like what was said previously, it's usually better to go all or nothing with our magic. I tend to run high magic with a lvl 4 and 2-3 level 2s if I'm not using my BsB. Our magic is devestating and the spells in our dark lore are usefull in nearly every situation, though metal or fire may be better against certain oponents.

Simialr with shooting, we have great shooting if used well. Our shooting is great vs Light cavalry and getting rid of those fast lightly armored pests. And for bigger things like monsters we have sheer volume of fire. It's almost always better to just go for the multi-shot on nearly everything. But I have found its a go big or go home with our ranged units otherwise your probably not gonna see the numbers work for you.

My 2 cents and I hope some of it may be helpful. Just what I've learned from my personal experiances.
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Borog
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Post by Borog »

Dark riders are my best friends on the battlefield, and I always field them with rxb, just because it really unnerves my friends to have them running around, even if they don't actually kill much with their shooting.
My friends don't actually notice that bit, they just notice I bring 20 dice each turn with shooting from my two "impossible to catch" riders :P

I have had them charge and destroy blood knights and a unit of 20 dwarf miners. The thing to remember is that unless you get the flank of a knight unit you are dead. Against multiple attack enemies they are dead.

But the threat of a rear charge is usually enough to unsettle opponents.
Simply put, don't commit them to battle unless it's an existing combat and you want a flank charge. But I have turned a battle against me by charging with the riders and giving away ACR!
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Post by L1qw1d »

Also one thing: you did some of this before. At the beginning you noted that you felt like you were spinning your wheels with the $300 you spent on the army. I think DRAITCH is a specific list for discussion- I take pieces of it and find what works, and hope to apply it in future battles.

Frustration can ruin a game- you're playing to a standard you're holding for yourself comparing it from a couple YEARS ago. If I'm not mistaken, even the Editions have changed in that time, if nothing else. Do things to take out your frustration on THEM. Play hard, but play so you can say "Good Game" at the end of it.
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Drek
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Post by Drek »

Dude, I want you to know that I won my first ever game of WHFB with the Dark Elves, then didn't win another one for two years.

That's right. Two years.

Keep reading around here. Keep playing. Keep trying things. DE are an absolute blast to play, and once you learn how to control the movement phase you will dominate. Tinker with your list and do plenty of mathhammer. Know which units can take on which units before you even arrive at the shop. Most of all, keep at it! You'll get there, and when you do it will so much fun you'll need plastic surgery to get the smile off your face.
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Auere
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Post by Auere »

Dude, I want you to know that I won my first ever game of WHFB with the Dark Elves, then didn't win another one for two years.

That's right. Two years.


I kinda wish it had been me. My next game is my 20th ever, and I have yet to suffer a defeat.

So far I have played against two friends mostly (WE and Dwarves), and by now they are starting to complain about Dark Elf cheese. (As if I am giving them the worst... I never field death stars, double hydra, dragon lord, more than 6 levels of magic and seldenly black guard!)


I REALLY would like a good beating soon! You cant tactically develop as much if you do not loose games. Not that I think that you should be happy to loose games - especially not from bad luck - but there really cant be anything more satisfying than getting completely torn apart by a tactically superior player.


All I am saying here is; unless the OP is on a massive streak of bad luck, he must be facing very good tacticians. Thats good - the game is not about winning, its about competing. And by now you are proberbly already a better general than me, although you have won 10% of your games and I have won 90%!
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