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New rules, new approach to out tactic's - Charachter Build 
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Malekith's Best Friend
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I read, and I think, I read and ponder some more, and every time I come to the same conclusion.
1 lv. 4 on DP, PoK, + life taker, is almost mandatory.

The reason I post a new topic, is the previous one had to much 8-ed rumor theory build's.

feel free to add your own build's.

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Last edited by Killerk on Sun Jul 11, 2010 7:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Sun Jul 11, 2010 11:27 am
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Trainee Warrior

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Not quite sure yet about PoK on lvl.4 - I know it would save A LOT of trouble and might become a necessity, but I still wanna run it on a master or dready for a little longer and see how effective they are... 8)

otherwise sound advice :D


Sun Jul 11, 2010 11:35 am
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Malekith's Best Friend
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The thing that convinces me every time, is in 7ed, the attack's the lord gave a unit almost always tipped the favor to our side, for running down our enemy's, since in 8th, they will be stubborn most likely, then they will return a bunch of s3 hit's in return, well , not something the PoK is good at dealing with.

on the other hand, we can have it on a mobile sorc, protecting here from most miscasts, and deadly war machines.


suddenly miscasts become much less scary, enabling us to use those game winning spell's each turn. Where's the combat lord will no longer have many opportunity's to have any game winning charge's.

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Sun Jul 11, 2010 1:04 pm
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The biggest problem for the DP Sorc is, IMHO, that she is more vulnerable to shooting now, since it is almost impossible to hide her behind terrain/units.

But I also think that she is a viable choice.

Also PoK does not protect against the really bad miscasts. Only against the damaging ones.

And... miscasts are not that common... unless you roll lots of dice for those killer spells, of course. ;)

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Sun Jul 11, 2010 6:34 pm
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Malekith's Best Friend
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I must have edited away the most important line, :oops:

that is for every one else to add their character build's.

sorry. (How embarrassing)

but the most common miscast are rolled are 5-8.

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Sun Jul 11, 2010 7:35 pm
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Huh, well i have never been a fan of magic duels, and battle sorcery as whole, but i think the PoK is far better saved for a combat character, especially a dreadlord with the armour of living death (+1t and +1w help out a lot rhese days of regen and wards not stacking). Still, as we usually play fairly big games, i might be giving the naked gal a try, probably using the morathi model (dont have others on pegasus). If only because a lvl 4 can better dispel enemies from hogwarts.


Sun Jul 11, 2010 7:59 pm
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I think this build is really good.
1. PoK gives you protection from those cannons, bolt throwers, etc. It even protects you as good as 4+ ward against S3 missiles and even better against S4.
2. You're almost immune to Metal lore, since you have 6+ save. 6+ save is also nice in combination with PoK.
3. Your miscasts don't blow up half of your unit with you and you get a 2+ ward against them. Ok, there are cases that she will suffer too, but all things go poof eventually don't they?
4. It's super mobile.
5. You can use her to destroy warmachines with shooting and even in CC.
6. The magic is more about quality than quantity in 8th edition, so you can cast your big spells more reliably because the PoK protects you.
7. She is good in all phases: Movement (use her to try march block for example), Magic (duh!), Shooting, Close Combat (Black dragon egg anyone?). Ok, she can't deal with all CC opponents but she can be used as a support if necessary and where needed.

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Sun Jul 11, 2010 8:00 pm
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kheirakh wrote:
5. You can use her to destroy warmachines with shooting and even in CC.


Hard with shooting against the high T, though.
There will most often be better targets around.

Bye
Thanee


Sun Jul 11, 2010 9:02 pm
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Just having a quick read through the miscast table, the thing I realised is that most of the effects actually cause damage to not only the wizard, but a large number of other models as well! Not that this makes much difference to this debate per se cause I guess we still want to reduce the damage directly to the wizard at all costs...

Just food for thought :D


Sun Jul 11, 2010 11:27 pm
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I don't see how that build could be almost mandatory, when that sounds like one of the weakest builds.

Dark Pegasus puts her so high she gets shot to death easily. She even doesn't get a Look Out Sir roll. PoK can't protect her from S3-S4 arrows that are quite common.

Her combat characteristics are terrible, so she's no threat to anything in combat. At 375 points minimum for your build (and her having no Arcane items!) she is too expensive to die taking out 1 bolt thrower (100 points.)

3 S4 shots pose absolutely no danger to enemy cannons and bolt throwers, nor really to archer units. Not mandatory at all.

Pendant of Khaeleth might be almost mandatory, but it doesn't require a Dark Pegasus or a Lifetaker at all. It's main purpose is to handle S10 from miscasts and eventually, if some dragonlord or something charges her.

375 for DP+Lifetaker+PoK gets you no extra magic power, with her dying easier.

For 320 just stick her in some Xbows
Lvl.4 + PoK + Sacrificial Dagger (or Darkstar Cloak)
You can use those 55 points saved to buy 5 RXBs to sacrifice for an extra 5 power dice.

Sacrificial Dagger is more amazing now than ever.
Channeling rod is 15 points for a 1 in 6 chance to get 1 power dice per turn.
The dagger is not only 100% chance for several power dice per turn, but you can roll less dice at first, avoid miscasts, and only add extra dice when needed. That saves even more than normal.

As Thanee said, the Dark Pegasus sorc is basically useless at shooting war machines with arrows. They're all T6-10. She won't even scratch them.

Might as well spend those points to win the magic phase instead of fly around and get shot dead.


Mon Jul 12, 2010 12:07 am
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Cold One Knight
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i would have to agree with Timz on the whole, DP isn't so great, in fact, it doesn't improve our lord caster at all, her wounds and T stay the same, she just gets to fly,

with reforms being so easy and less disruptive, you'll find that the opponents archers just quick reform and shoot you to death wherever you stand, even woods only reduce shooting, not stop it.

you only get VP's for entirely dead units, so even if she takes a few hits from a miscast or two, it's not costing you any VPs (but it is putting you closer to death)

if your not too worried about character sniping (not that many of those spells have a S value, but theres other ways to do it) or not worried about miscasting with three damaging (damaging as in wounds, all miscasts are damaging in a general sense :p ) miscasts in each game, PoK isn't all that important, it doesn't save you from the worst of the miscasts (instant death, or losing D3 levels)

not that it's poor, just that it's not so vital as to be required all the time.


Mon Jul 12, 2010 12:20 am
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Cold One Knight
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And just to help those new to casting in 8th...

The current 8th edition standard is:

Sorcerers go on the very far corner of the unit.

That way when they miscast, as few models die as possible. They have less models in B2B contact.


Mon Jul 12, 2010 3:10 am
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A better choice now for the line of sight issue with FF is the Arabyan carpet for flying as comapred with the Peg. The peg adds very little to the Lvl 4 now, whereas before it added a lot. I think that the level 4 will be very important for dispelling magic and casting easily cheap spells (+4 to cast and +4 to dispel) and then attempting one less cheap spell each turn as the last casting attempt. A failure to cast ends a caster's ability to cast spells in a turn. Similarly, a failure to dispel ends the wizard's ability to attempt further dispels in a turn, so I'm thinking a lvl 4 and a lvl 2 as standard now and one to three spells will go off and be cast successfully each turn. The lvl 2 is a simple spell caster that only attempts cheap 2PD spells (1 in 36 change of miscast) and a scroll caddy with one other item (darkstar?). The level 4 is kept out of the range of units for the most part and uses the Pok and FF to extend range and hide from shooting and magic attacks. Lots of terrain, like buildings really will help hide a lvl 4 on a steed or with flying. There is a magic item that allows one to roll an additional D6 if the dispel attempt falls short and that can double as the second scroll on the lvl 4.


Mon Jul 12, 2010 5:37 am
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DP sorc can still join our troop to prevent shooting (no look out sir), and with good modeling , she can not been seen or at least , got cover save from troops(-2 to shoot).

I think focus familiar + black dragon egg + POK is a good choice

lifetaker isnt so good IMO


Mon Jul 12, 2010 6:19 am
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UndeadcatD wrote:
DP sorc can still join our troop to prevent shooting (no look out sir), and with good modeling , she can not been seen or at least , got cover save from troops(-2 to shoot).

I think focus familiar + black dragon egg + POK is a good choice

lifetaker isnt so good IMO


IMO, I think it's considered illegal cheating to mess with modeling to try and get a combat advantage.

You can't model your archers all crawling on the ground so that they get cover saves more often, etc.

Hmm, BDE on Lvl.4 is interesting idea. T6 and 2d6 S4 hits at I5 + PoK gives her some survivability maybe.

350 points for Lvl.4 + Sacrificial Dagger + PoK + Black dragon egg. Max power dice, good against high strength hits, good against low strength hits, decent combat dmg once.


Mon Jul 12, 2010 6:50 am
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Timz I must disagree,

1. I did not add additional item's just for the fact to leave it up to discussion, but I'm leaning as to FF, but the additional options are open for debate.

2. Terrain is always a gamble, most of the table's I play on will have 2-3 pieces of terrain big enough to hide her, but never the less it's a gamble.

3. Screening with harpies is always a good option, it's not sound as in 7ed, but having here behind terrain and a unit is -2 to hit?, add range, I don't see many shots actually hitting her.

4. My 4lv. sorc is all about casting huge spells, each round I will be using 4+ dice on one spell, preferably twice. so I don't want to be near my unit's.

5. Along with here I will probably be fielding another lv. 3/4 and a levle 1. on foot. That's where the SD, and other trinket's will go.

6. The DE army is the only army out there, where more sorc. give us more dice (PoD).


big nasty combat characters I'd say are not a vital as before. there is nothing a dread lord can do that hydra cant.

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Mon Jul 12, 2010 8:13 am
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I'd have to say that although I think the lvl 4 on DP will be really usefull with the lore of death I think it will only be good against slow armies with very minimal shooting. DP just is too hard to hide with TLoS and lets face it sorceresses aren't exactly too good against shooting.

I agree with Timz and think it is much better to take a lvl 4 with a dagger in a unit of either spear-elves or RxB. I will be at least trying a similar build to this with the BDE instead of lifestealer as most of my games will be against VC which has no shooting. I am predicting however that I will end up running a lvl 2 and a lvl 4 with a sacrificial dagger.

Another benefit I can see with the DP is that you could take a ring of hotek and be able to maneuver in a way that will put you in range to cast without being in range of RoH.

Overall though I agree with Timz in that it is simply too risky and costly to place a lvl 4 on DP, maybe run a lvl 2 on DP??


Mon Jul 12, 2010 8:57 am
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Malekith's Best Friend

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Actually, I can't see why the DP is needed at all.

If you don't want her to kill your unit when miscasting, why not simply run her on her own within 3" of a unit? She'll get a 4+ Look-out Sir (in addition to PoK), she is very mobile and she can quickly join adjacent units if she needs the extra protection. As she is only a normal infantry model, she can easily be screened by other units and given Hard Cover against small arms shooting that would otherwise penetrate PoK.


Mon Jul 12, 2010 9:29 am
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Setomidor wrote:
Actually, I can't see why the DP is needed at all.

If you don't want her to kill your unit when miscasting, why not simply run her on her own within 3" of a unit? She'll get a 4+ Look-out Sir (in addition to PoK), she is very mobile and she can quickly join adjacent units if she needs the extra protection. As she is only a normal infantry model, she can easily be screened by other units and given Hard Cover against small arms shooting that would otherwise penetrate PoK.


the mobility is the reason for DP ,20" movement still great
especially with DP , we may cast a big purple sun from enemy's flank.

and she can still join other unit when riding a dark pegasus


Mon Jul 12, 2010 10:49 am
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Wouldn't a Dark Steed prove an even better alternative then? Gives you almost the same manueverability, and still the possibility to get a Look-out Sir if within 3" of a 5-man cavalry unit.


Mon Jul 12, 2010 11:09 am
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DS is a v. good option.

I prefer the extra 30+ point's to be able to fly over unit's, plus I love my converted Dp's.

UndeadcatD, pointed out, casting spell's from the appropriate position is priceless.

in 7th the DP was easily shot to pieces, and now it can benefit from the PoD save.

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Mon Jul 12, 2010 6:51 pm
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I would think PoK is ok to put on a cast for one reason: Fighters get more armour options. Darkness, cloak of Hag Graef (combined w Shield of Ghrond, perhaps), Blood Armour- all these can drop the attacks of people pretty quickly, while the caster (especially if they are one of your important resources!) has very LITTLE to actually protect her: good tactics, Focus Familiar, cloak of shadows, etc.

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Mon Jul 12, 2010 8:54 pm
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Quote:
cloak of Hag Graef (combined w Shield of Ghrond, perhaps)

Unless it changed in 8th, you can not have 2 magical armors, even if one is a shield.

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Tue Jul 13, 2010 7:00 am
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KillerK wrote:
in 7th the DP was easily shot to pieces, and now it can benefit from the PoD save.


How does the Pegasus benefit from the Ward save?


Also, I kinda agree with Setomidor about the Dark Steed. The advantages of the Dark Pegasus are there, but they are not as big anymore. Since you can roll against marchblocking now (and have to do so, even if you can fly), the 18" of the Dark Steed are almost as good as the 20" from the Dark Pegasus... sure, you cannot simply fly over units, and the Dark Pegasus offers some extra protection (because regular shots are randomized between them), but there is a 32-38 point difference involved, too. The Dark Steed is definitely a very good mount for a Sorceress again.

Bye
Thanee


Tue Jul 13, 2010 7:09 am
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Lord Tsunami wrote:
Quote:
cloak of Hag Graef (combined w Shield of Ghrond, perhaps)

Unless it changed in 8th, you can not have 2 magical armors, even if one is a shield.

I believe it has changed actually. I'm not entirely sure, but there was something about being able to take a shield in addition to other magic armor.

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Tue Jul 13, 2010 7:31 am
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