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Who to kill first, General or BSB...?? 
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Trainee Warrior

Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 10:35 am
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One of the most important rules that I think we are going to have to learn to combat effectively is the Steadfast rule. Essentially, an opponent who outranks us can take break tests on their (or their general's if in range) unmodified leadership, and if they are also in range of the BSB, they may be re-rolled. This makes even puny gobbos hard to deal with, as we druchii do not strive in protracted slog-fests.

So, we quickly realise that we need to take out either a) the general, or b) the BSB. But, which to do first? Is it better to negate the leadership bonus given to the troops by the general, or the re-roll from the BSB? Of course, ideally BOTH will die, but I'm just being a lil pesimistic here :)

Of course, there are a million different answers to this, more or less based on the relative tough-to-killness of the generals and BSBs in question, however for the purposes of this discussion I'm going to assume that either is just as easy to kill as the other.

With the outline above, we must consider for each whether or not a difference in leadership or the re-roll is most effective. Rather than give an exhaustive list of numbers to work it out, I thought I would just give a summary, though I'm happy to show the maths to those that want it.

NB: All the following statements are purely statistically based.

For a difference in leadership of 1 between the troop type and the general, it is more efficient to take out the BSB rather than the general if a troop has a leadership of 2 or greater.

For a difference in leadership of 2 between the troop type and the general, it is more efficient to take out the BSB rather than the general if a troop has a leadership of 3 or greater.

For a difference in leadership of 3 between the troop type and the general, it is ALWAYS more efficient to take out the general rather than the BSB (except if the troop's ld is 6 and general's is 9, in which case either is the same).

For any greater difference in leadership, it's always worth taking out the general.

As I said before, this does not take into account the relative difficulties of killing the general or the BSB, but hopefully now you have a rough idea of what is more effective in causeing your opponent to fail his leadership tests.

Cheers :D


Mon Jul 12, 2010 12:24 am
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Cold One Knight
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Bravo!

I think that's the logic I'd have used with common sense when choosing which of the 2 to kill, but it's always very helpful when someone does the math.

Let's see, it looks like...
Beastmen, Bretonnia, Demons, Dark Elves, Dwarfs, Empire, High Elves, Lizardmen, Ogres, Orcs, Chaos Warriors, and Wood Elves

are ALL only 1-2 Ld better than their normal combat troops.

The two common times killing the general is better look like:
Skaven-slave heavy Skaven lists. (Better to kill BSB against Clanrats.)
Night Goblin-heavy O&G lists. (Better to kill BSB against Orcs.)


Undetermined: Vampire Counts and Tomb Kings. Not sure. (Although I think VC armies crumble when the general dies.)

So in like 99% of times, Killing the BSB does the most damage to the enemy's morale!


Last edited by Timz on Mon Jul 12, 2010 12:52 am, edited 1 time in total.



Mon Jul 12, 2010 12:50 am
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Malekith's Personal Guard
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In normal lists (not VC/TK), the BSB is more important to kill.

Rerolling breaktests, fear, panic, rally, stupidity, etc is way better than adding some to your leadership. And lets not forget the +1 CR. :P

The BSB is also somewhat easier to kill since you "only" have to break his unit and the BSB autodies.


Mon Jul 12, 2010 12:52 am
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Cold One Knight
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Minsc wrote:
The BSB is more important to kill.

Rerolling breaktests, fear, panic, rally, stupidity, etc is way better than adding some to your leadership. And lets not forget the +1 CR. :P

The BSB is also somewhat easier to kill since you "only" have to break his unit and the BSB autodies.


I think the math still holds true.

If they're Ld.2 skaven slaves bumped to Ld.5, it's better for them to become Ld.10 from the general than for them to re-roll those tests at Ld.5.


Mon Jul 12, 2010 12:54 am
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Cold One Knight
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useful and informative.

hats off to ye, my good man.

edit - on the TK/VC side, it's just best to kill the general for VC and heirophiant on TK, without them, as timz said, they die.


Mon Jul 12, 2010 12:54 am
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Noble
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Personally, I will be targeting the BSB. In general they're hero-level, which means they'll be easier to kill, and peoples luck with rerolls around here is great. Well, except for the other Dark Elf player, but he fluffs every one of his rolls.

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Mon Jul 12, 2010 2:26 am
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Let alone that the BSB often has some magic buff... and simultaneously is easier to kill because of lack of magic armour.

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Mon Jul 12, 2010 6:05 am
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Noble
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Calisson wrote:
Let alone that the BSB often has some magic buff... and simultaneously is easier to kill because of lack of magic armour.

Yeah, double winner here. And, another point in favor of killing the BSB, they may have a very expensive magical banner, since BSB don't have the limit normal units have on banners. That's a lot of victory points. For the extra sauce on top of it, combine this with the Champion-Kills Hero tactica for 50 more VP's. :)

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Mon Jul 12, 2010 6:37 am
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Masked Jackal wrote:
combine this with the Champion-Kills Hero tactica for 50 more VP's. :)
Easier to kill the BSB with a death squad made of 3x2 WE:
the naked girls charge right at him, yelling "I want YOU, Babe", and that's 12 poisoned/possibly KB-buffed attacks aimed at the BSB.
If there was a Hag, then the champ would gallantly challenge her, that would decrease the attacks to 4 poison/KB. Less likely to succeed, and more expensive, only to hope for 50 more VPs.

Only if the BSB hides in a corner, then the maximizing rule would allow only 2 WE to hit him, so better have a champion... but in that case, the opposing champion will be positioned just next to the BSB and will spoil your own champ.
Overall, better run them 6 "naked" WE.

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Last edited by Calisson on Mon Jul 12, 2010 10:20 am, edited 1 time in total.



Mon Jul 12, 2010 7:03 am
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Cold One Knight
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Calisson wrote:
Masked Jackal wrote:
combine this with the Champion-Kills Hero tactica for 50 more VP's. :)
Easier to kill the BSB with a death squad made of 3x2 WE:
the naked girls charge right at him, yelling "I want YOU, Babe", and that's 12 poisoned/possibly KB-buffed attacks aimed at the BSB.
If there was a Hag, then the champ would gallantly challenge her, that would decrease the attacks to 4 poison/KB. Less likely to succeed, and more expensive, only to hope for 50 more VPs.

Only if the BSB hides in a corner, then the maximizing rule would allow only 2 WE to hit him, so better have a champion... but in that case, the opposing champion will be positioned just next to the BSB and will spoil your own champ.
Overall, better run them 6 "naked" WE.


If 6 naked WE don't get instantly shot to death or charged by something with wizard unattackable.


Mon Jul 12, 2010 7:32 am
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Malekith's Best Friend

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I think units of 6 xHw Shades will prove to be the ultimate unit for flexibility. Apart from the obvious like taking out Warmachines and shooting stuff, they can also reform to 2 ranks of 3 and suicide charge characters.

With their 9 attacks and WS 5 they will average 8 hits and 4 wounds against most wizards (WS 4 or less, and T3), and against combat characters (WS 5 or more, lower I than Shades) they will average about 6 hits and one Killing Blow, if backed up by a Cauldron.

for 102 pts I think this is a steal.

Compared to WEs, the Shades are so much more flexible as they can deploy deep and start shooting prior to making any suicide charge.


Mon Jul 12, 2010 9:43 am
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A small mistake, the rear WE count only for 1 attack.
Edited.

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Mon Jul 12, 2010 10:19 am
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Cold One Knight
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Wizards are probably deployed on the corner of a unit. So 6 AHW shades would get 6 attacks instead of 9 (provided the shades weren't shot to death on the way over, or killed by stand-and-shoot for charging mage in archer unit.)


Mon Jul 12, 2010 12:32 pm
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Malekith's Personal Guard

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o.o I feel so much more informed. I only went after the +100 Victory Points! lol

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Mon Jul 12, 2010 6:34 pm
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