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will 25 warriors be a large enough unit? 
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Corsair

Joined: Thu Jan 30, 2003 6:43 am
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I remember reading about how we would want 40-50 man units to take advantage of horde formation, and then it was 30 man 5 wide by 6 deep to be stalwart. I personally do not like the look of a unit being deeper than it is wide (just like I don't like mounted characters in rank and file units). I'd like to run my warriors in two blocks of 25 and the first few army lists I checked out in the army list area also had 25 man units. Will 25 be large enough as a general size?


Sat Jul 17, 2010 1:23 pm
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Corsair
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Depends on the rest of the list.
25 spearmen are enough to be steadfast against all monsters & chariots, most cavalry and many infantry.

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Sat Jul 17, 2010 2:32 pm
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25 is fine. I've used two 25-strong spear units so far, and they do quite well for themselves. Just be a bit cautious about what you throw them up against, since some units in Warhammer Fantasy are capable of chewing their way through a lot of wounds in a single combat, but as long as they're supported I find they do their job exceedingly well.

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Sat Jul 17, 2010 7:14 pm
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Corsair

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Thanks,

I'm looking at 2 units of 25 too, half painted so far. I don't think i can bear to paint more than another 25 of them.


Sat Jul 17, 2010 8:52 pm
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I think 5x5 units should be enough when used just to provide rank bonus and maybe steadfast to hold an enemy in place.

It won't kill much, so there'll need to be a side-charge from some Cold One Chariots, Witch Elves, Black Guard, etc. to swing the balance and make the enemy run away.


Sun Jul 18, 2010 3:15 am
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Warrior

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With my experience i know that 25man unit against brets do not work.


Fri Jul 23, 2010 9:54 am
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Feruz wrote:
With my experience i know that 25man unit against brets do not work.


In the past yes, but now they go first. 16 KB from the CoB should make them a lot more effective.

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Fri Jul 23, 2010 10:10 am
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Feruz wrote:
With my experience i know that 25man unit against brets do not work.


Not much as changed between fighting Brets last edition and fighting Brets in this edition. Both have access to Steadfast, and both armies can negate Steadfast. Dark Elves have to prevent the Bret player from lining up multiple heavy lance charges against Dark Elf units, and the Bret player has to prevent his lances from getting flanked/slowed/redirected by mobile Dark Elves. We should be doing our best to prevent those big coordinated charges, backed up by lots of S5 lances and Static Combat resolution, from hitting home.

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Fri Jul 23, 2010 5:40 pm
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That's why you should avoid horde formation.

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Fri Jul 23, 2010 8:16 pm
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Maldor wrote:
That's why you should avoid horde formation.

Dark Elves don't really have any units that would benefit from horde, except in a few situations. Fortunately there is a free reform, so you can adapt on the fly.

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Fri Jul 23, 2010 9:11 pm
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Slave (off the Altar)

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Planning on using 2 units of 30 as tar pit/anvils. 25 just seems a touch too flimsy but it might just be in my head.

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Sat Jul 24, 2010 4:42 am
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25 is fine, although I would personally never use them below 30 as a startingsize. (This goes for all cheap infantry I use, be it DE Spears, HE Spears, Marauders, Empire Statetroops, etc.)


Sat Jul 24, 2010 9:19 am
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It all boils down to its purpose, which would affect the necessary size to ensure there's enough bodies to absorb the damage and still deliver.

I aim to deny 5x(>7) formations their steadfast so they'll break and get run down, so I'd take 30 - 40spears/unit to get lots of ranks. Then magic/shooting to thin the ranks down on large formations of the opponent.

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Sat Jul 24, 2010 10:55 am
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I used to use units of 20 or 25 in 7th, and in the 4 games of 8th i've played i've tried 30 and 40 but not 25 yet. I found a good portion of my unit ended up as casualties in all games, but gave me a huge strategic advantage (held a large unit of bloodletters long enough for my chariot to hit them in the flank and wipe them out). If I was only running 25 they would not have been as effective in the last rounds of the game, where combat was getting pretty close.

Ozzkoz: I agree a unit that isn't as wide as it is long looks funny to me too, but if its any consolation, infantry die really fast, so chances are that your unit will only be "asymmetric" for a round or two until you lose five :P

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Sat Jul 24, 2010 4:29 pm
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Corsair

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I have tried between 25-38. Somewhere in between there is my suggestion. My experience is as Tzeloks, 25 could be too few. That is, if you need them to be steadfast vs something dangerous for atleast a turn until you can counter in flank with something.

My 2 cents: Between 30-35 for a steadfast unit purpose (5 wide).


Sat Jul 24, 2010 9:53 pm
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Yea keep in mind that our infantry die quite easily so a block of 25 will get depleted quickly to the point where their combat efficiency is made redundant. Their main uses would be to disrupt enemy ranks for a turn or two before they run out of bodies to form two ranks, as a bunker for a mage or a sacrificial unit for lv4 sorc with dagger.

Don't expect them to hold against anything but cavalry and monsters maybe. Not for over two rounds of combat anyway. They do make a good size for an anti cavalry unit. Give them KB and voila, win.

So yea, if you're talking a multi-use block then 30+ will be ideal. If they're not required to hold out against massed blocks of infantry then yea, you can go with 25. But you'll find that most armies will field a couple blocks of 40, and they won't care about the thrashing they're receiving so long as they have more ranks than you. And DE doesn't quite cut it for prolonged combat rounds.

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Jacks -Shade
- WS 5 - - S 3 - - T 2 - - D 6 - - I 5 -

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Short Sword, MC Long Sword*, Dagger, RxB & RHB [20/10] MC Shade Cloak, 4 Throwing Daggers, 3x Healing Vials, 451C, [3]Dark Venom, [4]Unseen Chains, Food, Dark Steed- Spike

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Sun Jul 25, 2010 10:57 am
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Slave (off the Altar)

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I agree with 30-40, 5 wide is the way to go!

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Sun Jul 25, 2010 10:38 pm
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I had to change my list before the tournament Saturday and I tried 25 RXB and 25 Spears. Both Shielded. The funny thing was: Spears got MOWED, and if they hadn't Broken, they would have wiped (even the pursue rolls were too close for comfort!), but the RXB excelled with Shielding for some reason lol

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Mon Jul 26, 2010 3:29 pm
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A lot of players seem to think that losing Steadfast is somehow equivalent to instantly losing a combat, being broken and run down. Steadfast is only useful if you're losing a combat by overwhelming odds, and need to remain Stubborn to stand a chance of passing that Break test. Even if you're not Steadfast, and lose a combat by 2 or 3 points, passing a Break test is still likely if you have a BSB and decent general's Leadership nearby. Just because you're fighting enemy infantry units bigger than you doesn't mean you require Steadfast to stand a chance.

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Mon Jul 26, 2010 5:53 pm
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The bigger issue with Steadfast is denying it to your opponent. Remember that if you're not Steadfast then odds are they are (unless tied with ranks), and it'd be a shame to slaughter them in combat and have them tarpit you.

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Mon Jul 26, 2010 8:26 pm
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I like Teth's point, and if you have your Banner, and the BSB nearby, thats still a +2 with a re-roll if you both the first one. That lubes a LOT of the saves right there- better if you can find some way to be immune to Psychology lol

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Mon Jul 26, 2010 8:29 pm
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Teth, the issue is our DE units can't withstand a prolong combat for long. We want to be in combat and out quick smart, ready for the next charge. Our advantage is hatred, which disappears after the first round. To deny your opponent the steadfast advantage makes a lot of difference to whether they break or not. Winning the combat by two or three points has a better chance to break your opponent even if they used the general's ld and a reroll from BSB as opposed to an unmodified general ld test with reroll.

L1q, if you mean the banners generating combat res, then unless you're taking the Banner of Nagarythe on your BSB, the BSB will have to be in the unit to confer a further +1 to CR to the affected unit.

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Now that we understand each other, lets get down to business.

Jacks -Shade
- WS 5 - - S 3 - - T 2 - - D 6 - - I 5 -

Equipment
Short Sword, MC Long Sword*, Dagger, RxB & RHB [20/10] MC Shade Cloak, 4 Throwing Daggers, 3x Healing Vials, 451C, [3]Dark Venom, [4]Unseen Chains, Food, Dark Steed- Spike

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*Magical properties possibly imbued


Tue Jul 27, 2010 4:44 am
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Corsair

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sounds like there is no magic number,

given that I have 50, would I be better served to go 2 units of 25 (one with a BSB), or 1 unit of 30 w/ BSB and 1 of 20 w/ a sorceress w/ dagger? Keep in mind I play exclusively 2k pts. If I started playing 3k I'd bump them both to 30 but at 2k I don't really want to cut out the 70 pts to bump both units.


Fri Jul 30, 2010 2:20 am
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Malekith's Personal Guard

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well, one thing you may want to note is the amount of attacks that you can produce. MathHammer ain't FUN, but it's effective lol If you JUST throw 50 in a 10*5 formation, you get 10 attacks from the front, and 10 from the second, and the 3rd (let's say that you have a +1 Attack banner on as well.), and since you have ranks beyond 3, you get support of 1 attack/ 2 units.so 40+10=50 (since you have 20 additional units).

Lets examine what happens if you have 2 blocks of 5*5 (lets put a banner on the first and some random thing giving the other an additional attack, like a blessing or something) 10 attacks from both front lines, 5 from the second, 5 from the third (I DO love noting that for our weak little Spearmen...) and I THINK the rule is the same: Beyond 3 ranks, 1 Attack/ 2 Models, Rounded up. so that's 5 more, each unit. 25 hits each. drop 5 if you don't have a blessing or banner, but you get the gist- and if you break it up, you can flank the unit to disrupt it very effectively because even if they decide to reform and attack, it's just whittling you down while you whittle THEM down.

but I could be wrong. I use them as XBows, so I'm a little rusty on that math.

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Fri Jul 30, 2010 3:34 pm
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Corsair
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L1qw1d wrote:
since you have ranks beyond 3, you get support of 1 attack/ 2 units.
Aren't you using the rules intended for bows only, and for shooting only?

50 in a 10x5 formation:
1st rank strikes 11 attacks (champ)
2nd rank strikes 10 attacks (1 per model)
3rd rank strikes 10 attacks (horde rule)
4th rank strikes 10 attacks (spearmen add 1 rank)
5th rank cannot do anything.
Total (frontally) is 41 attacks.
If you have the +1 attack banner or a COB's blessing, only the first rank may get more than 1 attack, so the total becomes 51 attacks (not cost effective).
Note that for the banner, you need to make room for the BSB, dropping 1 attack and getting the BSB's.
The COB blessing is probably more useful to be KB rather than +1 attack, for an expected 7 KBed in average... assuming all models face a foe, which is far from granted due to the width of the unit.


In your comparison, the two 5x5 units will strike on 1st, 2nd and 3rd ranks (3rd for spearmen), for a total of 6+5+5=16 attacks each (assuming a champ in each), which makes 32 attacks.
The smaller width implies a greater probability that all models face a foe, i.e. more likely that they do actually strike.

The only change if you take 5x4 and 5x6 is that the 5x6 is more resilient. Otherwise, same amount of hits.


Overall, it seems to me that the two units are preferable to the single one.

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Last edited by Calisson on Sun Aug 01, 2010 8:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Fri Jul 30, 2010 3:50 pm
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