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Uses for MME (Many MEDIUM Elites) 
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Corsair
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Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2008 10:00 pm
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Question risen in: Forgoing "Elite" infantry all together?
SiegeCommander wrote:
Is it even worth paying for these guys instead of spearmen? Since none of our units generate enough attacks to negate stepping up usually why pay around double for the same durability with slightly increased stats? What are your guys thoughts on our elite special choices compared to our core in 8th?



I'd like in the present thread to explore some uses for medium units of elites, in the range 10 to 15 (or 7-10 COK), with possibly some command or even full command.
These units are no more expandable, although loosing one is far from the end of the world (let alone the game).
Small elite units are examined in Uses for MSE, while the largest ones can be discussed in FLE (FEW LARGE Elites).


I'll start by quoting some interesting replies from the original thread and from Uses for MSE.

Calisson wrote:
If an elite unit manages to get a flank attack, they will stay on the winning side (unless they get flank attacked themselves).
Elite need to avoid frontal collisions with mass units, because no matter how many they kill, there will be some painful retaliation.
However, if elites manage to get a flank charge on the same mass unit, the retaliation is much less and they will achieve a much faster destruction of the opposing mass unit.
Key is maneuvre.
Wirewolf wrote:
Our elite units now will best serve to soften up units and assassinate characters/champs so that our spears and pirates can march in and overpower our enemies. In my lists 12 strong WE are making a big come back and are great at what they do.
Mr. Anderson wrote:
"Our elite units now will best serve to soften up units and assassinate characters/champs so that our spears and pirates can march in and overpower our enemies."
You will forgive me for going :roll: when I read this... That is the worst possible way to use elites (short of leaving them in front of musketeers for a few turns...). Thats just my opinion, of course, but using elites this way is a waste. And can you imagine a general on a campaing throwing his elites in the meat grinder so the speargrunts can finish the enemy off?
Mr. Anderson wrote:
Elites are there to prevent unecessary losses from spearmen, for sure, but not by getting themselves killed. It works a lot better if you bind your opponent in font, then charge the flanks with witch elves or black guard to get you those kills that'll tip the combat, break ranks and rout the enemy rather quickly.

In order to be able to do this, you need to break your opponent's line first (softening up the center, then using shock troops like cold one knights to charge the weakened unit). This requires you to plan your shooting out properly, of course. Once you break through, you have split your opponent's army in two, and your knights will be at the back of the army, hunting war machines, or preferably stopping reinforcements moving towards the isolated flank facing your majority of units. Once there is a gap in the lines, you can flank charge (because now you have the room to do so) with your elites and quickly finish off combats that would drag on endlessly otherwise and likely see both sides ground to dust.

If you are in a position where a flank is isolated, small elite units really come in their own. Two units of 10 witch elves in the flanks do much more damage than one 20-strong unit in front. Black riders in the rear will add some very welcome combat resolution bonuses as well. This will see hordes finished off rather quickly, seeing as each witch elf unit puts out around 30 attacks (deadly against low toughness hordes) and there is bound to be someone breaking their ranks. This will allow you to pick units off amost at will, while your spearmen, war machines and skirmishers hold off the other flank until you're finished with the flank you're concentrating on.

This requires very well thought-out maneuvring and deployment, but belive me when it works, it'll see your opponent ground to dust enormously quickly.

However, with the tendency towards larger but fewer units, well-coordinated small(ish) elite units may well be a great way of wreaking havoc - having more units and more room (and higher movement, quite often) will mean that your opponent can't possibly avoid rear charges and flank charges. And horde or not, even 100 goblins will be in a lot of trouble when they have units all around them. Taking 30+ kills a turn won't go unnoticed for long. They'll do one turn (i.e. two combat phases) and then they're toast.
L1qw1d wrote:
I think the point of Elites are just over tarpit status unless you know how to throw them at things. You throw 40 Spears to slow someone down until 5-20 BG can GET there and chainsaw thru them.

Infantry got a big boost. Admittedly, it DOES dissuade some from initially taking Elites. But each one is there for specific purposes. Skirmishers may have altered, but kept in perspective are still great delivery units and COK are still shocktroopers. The Stubborn, ItP, and Always rerolling to hit or (slightly) higher S KB's DO add up.
Tethlis wrote:
There's a strong movement that seems to believe that taking casualties is somehow terrible, or wrong, or means we instantly lose and forfeit the game.

It's OKAY if Black Guard take casualties. Same with Executioners. Same with Witch Elves. The important thing is that your opponent takes even more casualties than you do, breaks, and you win the combat. Skaven Clanrats, on average, kill 2 to 3 BG a turn, compared to the 10+ Clanrats that unbuffed, unsupported Black Guard kill in return. Not bad.

"But what if I'm fighting something nastier than Clanrats? BG are only T3 with a 5+ armor save!"

True, so it's up to you as the general to dictate the matchups for your units, what you fight in melee and what you shoot at, and use your skill as a player to make sure our elites fight against opponents they can gain VP from, while ignoring the threats that are simply overwhelming for them.
Now your turn to state how best to use one or several medium elites?

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Last edited by Calisson on Thu Aug 05, 2010 9:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Mon Aug 02, 2010 6:07 pm
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Malekith's Personal Guard

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So far I've only managed to build up to MME lol I tried the RoH recommendation from someone else, and found that the fact that it works as long as the Champ is alive (even if not moving Stupidly) can actually be beneficial.

I try to set up my Corsairs so they either get charged with a Stand and Shoot, or get their charge in. But I try to keep the nice sized unit about Mid Range away from them so that either way, the opponent takes a risk.

I keep an SSS on the Corsairs so that I still get 2 attacks after the handbows have been taken.

Sadly, I am still short on the Khainite side, but an learning BG. Right now I have 19 total, but am working with about 14 or 15. When I got the charge in practice, I mowed into about 2 ranks into 5 by 4 with a front of 3. I think as I flesh things out I'm going to be trying a "holding pincer" with Shades, BG and Corsairs.

I also like making sure the 20+ RXB's pepper them en masse and then dump the 2 units on them. I find that our Specials (even our big regenerating BULLSEYES lol ) deal far more damage and rip chunks out of units.

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Thu Aug 05, 2010 7:52 pm
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Rending Star
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I definitely wouldn't call 12 COK a "medium size" unit. :lol: ;)

Bye
Thanee


Thu Aug 05, 2010 8:55 pm
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Noble
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Considering Black-Guards low max size, this is probably the best use for them. In addition, even at this size, they can be used to actually pin larger enemy units for a while, depending on their composition. WS2 enemy troops will be stuck for quite awhile while the Black-Guard kill a good number of them.

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Thu Aug 05, 2010 9:12 pm
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Malekith's Personal Guard

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I only have the extra 2 until I can buy a chariot to convert ;)

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Fri Aug 06, 2010 4:02 pm
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Hi. I haven`t tried 8th ed. yet, but have read a lot about the changes and seen some battle reports too. The general argument seems to be that, because of steadfast, massive blocks of infantry are required to win the game, even if playing elite armies like Dark Elves.

This argument doesn`t convinve me really, as the same logic that DE players developed in the past about msu/mse still applys, that is, we are more expensive for paying points for our better stats in combat, so we have to maximize miniatures in combat and minimize miniatures just to provide ranks. We won[t ever be able to compete with the lesser races for steadfast. For the same amount of points, they`ll always have more ranks.

One of the most fundamental assumptions in warhammer is to play to one`s own strenghts, instead of trying to compete on terms disfavourable to one[s own characteristics. Instead of having a huge block of spearmen having to face a still huger block of steadfast clanrats, isn`t it better to use other elements, like firepower and magic to bring them down and superior movement to get flank/combined charges?

In this line of argument, that is, that paying for DE minis just for the sake of rank is a waste in relative terms to our enemies, the optimized unit sizes would be 15-18 for Spearmen, so as to benefit from the 3 ranks of attacks and 10-14 (in two ranks) for the elite units, in order to get the supporting attacks. Of course such units can`t take a horde on their own frontally, but then, why would Dark Elves ever want to do this??

As mister Anderson wrote, its up to us to use deploy, manouvre and firepower to achieve tactical superiority in the `schwerpunkt` of the attack to break enemy lines and than get to their flanks and rear. And DE are superbably equipped to do just that, if we keep to our own style of play.

Also, it seems to me to be more interesting for DEs to attack with 2 units of 15 Spearmen instead of with 1 unit of 30. We don`t have to fight one-on-one with the enemy. Hordes are 10 wide and can be easily attacked by 2 five wide smaller DE units, which are maximizing their high I, WS hatred attacks (all wasted as mere rank fillers). Enemy units with 5-8 ranks are totally unmanouverable and should be easily outflanked.

Another argument for avoiding too large units is the increased power of template weapons. I`d rather not have my huge `all eggs in one basket unit` of 25 BG anihilated in a turn... Having several smaller units means that your risks are spread out and also that you can use them for sacrifices too, if the tactical situation arises.

All in all, I think that medium sized units are, more than ever, the most appropriated for DEs, particularly now that rxb and corsair can fire and fight in 2 ranks too. 10-12 men units like that can produce an awesome ammount of firepower and first-round close combat kills for a very reasonable price.

Edit: just read Calisson`s excellent article on Mammoths and hunting them, which says it all and in a far more ellaborate way. Thumbs up!


Wed Sep 08, 2010 5:59 pm
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Dark Rider

Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2010 1:29 pm
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Personally, I think black guard and witch elves would do best in 8 strong units, deployed 4 x 2.

all they want is getting in a flank, your big core units are to tie up the front.

BG are naturally stubborn, no need for big units to get steadfast at all, and WE are so when near a cauldron.

This will still net them a big number of attacks, for a low pointcost and makes them quite immune for the dreaded template (to small target for it, and those will generally scatter over them anyway).

being stubborn naturally means that even when they lose out (wont break up ranks etc) due to low number of return attacks, they will hold the enemy up still.


Mon Sep 13, 2010 1:12 pm
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