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Executioners or Blackguard 
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Slave on the Altar

Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2009 9:01 pm
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Hello,

I am trying to decide which of these 2 special choices should I use to go with my horde of 40 warriors. I like both but am worried the executioners would get mowed down to nothing before they can attack back with those GW. Could I ad a master to that unit and give it the ASF banner, and if yes would that be better. Also what size unit should I run. I have 25 of them at the moment. When it comes to the Blackguard, are they still worth it under 8th edition. I am thinking to use both blocks and try to fit in a chariot. If i take one of those units out I can add another chariot. If this helps I do plan on taking the CoB with most of my lists. Last but not least what do you guys think of Shades now. I know GW on them is a wast but what about a 2nd hand-weapon and add an assassin in the unit for war-machine and skirmisher hunting.

Sorry about all these questions but I need some advise and any would be greatly appreciated.

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Tue Aug 10, 2010 2:19 am
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Noble
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You cannot add a Master, as they are Khainite. If you do run Executioners, either run them large, or run them small as flanker units. If large, make sure that they're protected by Cauldron and screening units. Black-Guard are very much worth it in 8th Ed. Chariots are good under the new edition. Yes, CoB is practically an auto-take. Shades can be used as 6-man warmachine hunters with AHW's, or a couple more men can be added to house a RS/MB assassin.

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Tue Aug 10, 2010 2:44 am
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Malekith's Best Friend

Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2003 11:13 pm
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Keep in mind that BG have a unit max of 20.

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Tue Aug 10, 2010 3:01 am
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Warrior

Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2005 9:45 am
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I am debating on whether to use bg or ex, with the ex models being so much better I think I will have to go with them, even though bg are probably a better choice in most circumstances.


Tue Aug 10, 2010 3:48 am
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This is a tactics discussion, so I'm moving the topic.

As for choosing, well seeing as warrior hordes will be used best against other hordes or other infantry, executioners aren't the best choice to complement them (unless you're trying to make up for weaknesses) and black guard will work better. No elven elite unit can survive a frontal assault against another unit (save other small elites) because there are too many attacks back. They are best used for flank attacks. I suggest searching the tactics forum, there is an awful lot of information there already. As for whats best with your list - I suggest posting it in the army lists forum and ask for help.

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Tue Aug 10, 2010 6:04 am
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Slave on the Altar

Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2010 5:48 am
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Executioners have been really hit and miss with me so far. Stubborn from CoB helps, and they scare characters, but they are always losing guys. I can't think which units I would prefer to throw them at instead of using black guard for the same role, but use a unit of them anyways as they look cool. A nice thing about them is they can be very inexpensive and effective, and I run them either 6x3 or 7x3.

I have found Black Guard carrying the Banner of Murder to be an excellent deterrant to Cavalry, and a great baiting unit. They bait by running ahead, getting massacred down to a few elves, and giving me a chance to countercharge with something harder hitting, like a dragon, hydra, combat character, or Okkam's.

I prefer to run multiple blocks of elites instead of chariots. So far its allowed me to win battles of attrition vs chaos and brets. Hydras would better support your warrior blocks, as you would have a large rank bonus combined with a ton of kills. Hydras make better support because of their small space, fast movement, and the ability to breathe fire at high strength.


Tue Aug 10, 2010 6:20 am
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Black Guard

Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2010 10:49 pm
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I prefer the execs too. Horde of 30, 5+ CoB ward and supported by psychotic *itch elves and frenzied corsairs.

Yes, they'll get mowed down by lots of things, but when they get the chance to lift those draichs high above their heads, things are going to die - and they're a nice place for an assassin to hide :)


Tue Aug 10, 2010 8:57 am
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Malekith's Personal Guard

Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2010 2:50 pm
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One thing to consider for me is: What takes out the Shooters?

Both of these units need to GET there- the Execs have the higher S, and the BG can hit more often with the Elite re-roll, but you need COK to run ahead of the BG to bog shooters and/ or remove casters from the equation before either become truly effective.

I have to BUY Execs... but it seems like I'd use those for higher S and T armies (WoC, Dwarves, Ogres) while the BG seem to stack up really well (esp if backed w/ a CoB or a good caster) against "lighter" armies (Empire, Skaven, HE)

I think with wood elves or stunties, the hardest part is that ranged shooting bit. I think I'd still take BG for both of those tho... The biggest part isn't Should I take- it's what should I take WITH? to me

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Tue Aug 10, 2010 3:16 pm
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Trainee Warrior

Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2009 2:48 pm
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I've played three games now of 8th. In all three I used executioners, and in all three I have been extraordinarily impressed with their performance. I run what I consider a fairly balanced list; 20 xbows, 30 warriors, 25 execs, 2 hydras, 2 units of 5 dark riders, a unit of 6 shades, a COB as the Battle Standard, high sorc as general, and a unit of 5 COK with a master.

In every game, the execs have been the MVP. They run roughshod over everything they come into contact with. The first game was against ogres, and while I took some casualties, they gave way better than they got. The second game against lizardmen they wiped out 3 units; a unit of skink skirmishers(easy enough), a unit of skinks and kroxs, and finally the unit of temple guard housing the Slaan. The third game against VC my execs took on two units at once, a unit of ghouls and graveguard at the same time, and held stubbornly until the hydra arrived to charge the graveguard in the rear. The execs had already finished off the ghouls and killed the general which was in the graveguard by the time the hydra arrived. They survived with 5 models.

I say all that to say...execs are awesome. The thing is, sure, they take some casualties before they get to hit back, but they always give better than they get. If you support them, they're going to pwn.


Tue Aug 10, 2010 4:06 pm
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Trainee Warrior
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Well from my own experiances, I believe that blackgaurd aren't as good as they once were. I ran a unit of 20. At first I used to run them 5x4, but they weren't killing enough. I then switched it to 7 wide and they performed much better, yet they still lacked the ability to deliver. Their weak armor save really hurts and strength 4 isn't that great. The warrior elite rule is nice but still doesn't make up for their lack of staying and attack power.

I have just recently updated my list and have added 30 executioners. I have played two games already, and they have outperformed the black gaurd in attack power. The armor save still sucks, but I put a Hag with the ASF banner in the unit, so they are usually striking first. Giving them an extra attack with the COB works wonders as well.

I would say go for the Executioners. Plus, the models look cooler.

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Wed Aug 11, 2010 6:09 am
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Executioner

Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2010 10:17 am
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Think there is the 30+ exec with hag+asf banner solution. This will be one of the hardes hittng units in the game. With +1 at from COB theres is 40 at str. 6 with killing blow - rerollable with hatred. But this is a big big point sink and warmachines, heavy shooting and nasty magic will be directed against it for sure. As for BG it is till very viable imo. I use it as 14-15 in 2 or 3 ranks with mus and champ only. This is a very nice tarpit for holding a flank and also a nice hammer against mediocre units.

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Wed Aug 11, 2010 1:15 pm
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Highborn
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With the new rules of Execs always striking last their use becomes situational while making the Blackguard more of your can't go wrong units. As usual any high AS armies will take a beating from the Executioners but against low to medium infantry the BG will eat that unit up. For an all comer list BG is better imo but for specialized lists 1 unit of 14 Execs minimum should suffice. If you are gonna use Execs aim to hit the flank with them always as to avoid the supporting attacks and hope the enemy doesn't combat reform to kill your t3 t5 glass cannons.


Last edited by Ichiyo1821 on Mon Aug 16, 2010 2:25 am, edited 2 times in total.



Thu Aug 12, 2010 8:50 am
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Corsair
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Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2010 5:37 pm
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Ichiyo1821
What do you mean with the new rules they are always striking first? ;)


Thu Aug 12, 2010 9:19 am
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Trainee Warrior
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PLAYA23 wrote:
Ichiyo1821
What do you mean with the new rules they are always striking first? ;)


I am sure he meant that they strike last.

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Thu Aug 12, 2010 5:48 pm
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Was just pulling his leg. Also I should contribute I guess. The other day I played a friendly against O&G and my Executioners kicked ass, first against a small unit of goblins (obviously) and then a unit of Black Orcs where my Blackguard on the other hand were shot to pieces... however I'm not saying that the Executioners are by far the better unit because they easily could have switched places with the BG and died where as the BG could have kicked ass... situational I guess. Cheers ;)


Thu Aug 12, 2010 6:11 pm
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Trainee Warrior

Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2009 2:48 pm
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I think you overestimate the power of most low armor save troops and underestimate the power of executioners. Our execs are WS5 with a 5+ armor save. Consider the "average" toughness 3 WS 3 or 4 str 3 basic unit. So, they need 4s to hit, 4s to wound, and then we get a 5+ save. I'm no math expert, but somewhere else I've seen these stats posted; that's not a lot of wounds onto the execs. Then, with hits back needing rerollable 3s to hit and 2s to wound with no armor save...we're talking a ridiculous amount of wounds. Execs win combat by a landslide.

Now, certainly, against those same supposed light troops, blackguard are getting even more attacks...but they're wounding on 3s insead of 2s, so it makes up for it. Buff the execs with the cauldron(extra attack) and watch as they tear up pretty much any unit you put them against. Always getting return attacks really helps the execs, making them way more useful than they were in 7th. I used to run blackguard instead of execs, but I've played several games now in 8th and my execs have outperformed my Blackguard in every aspect; whether against light troops or heavy.


Thu Aug 12, 2010 6:13 pm
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@Saragos
So I guess what you're saying is that it wasn't for (lack of a better word) 'situational' as I posted above but rather the execs really are the better unit? I don't know if its just me but it seems that the execs are performing above our expectations... just something I noticed. Guess credit is given where its due. cheers ;)


Thu Aug 12, 2010 6:42 pm
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Trainee Warrior

Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2009 2:48 pm
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@Playa23

Yeah, I really think it's not an accident that your execs did so well. I'll be honest, I was surprised by how well they did compared to the Blackguard the first time I took them(having always used Blackguard in 7th). After 3 more games with them, however, I'm seeing it's not just a fluke. They are really an awesome unit. I prefer them in almost all situations.

One caveat I'd like to mention is that I support my execs with the cauldron. Giving them an extra attack and having them be stubborn is amazing. Blackguard get stubborn without the support; if you're running a list without a COB, I could still make an argument for Blackguard. However, with the Cauldron, I prefer execs.


Thu Aug 12, 2010 7:58 pm
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Slave (off the Altar)
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I run exclusively Black Guard in my army lists, mostly because I haven't invested in the Witch Elves, Executioners and CoB to make a dedicated Khainite list. When I field them, it's almost always 20 with a hero or lord somewhere for the extra model.

I find the S4 from the halberds to be sufficient to deal with most threats I have come across, proven in my experience against such baddies from Dwarves to Ogres to Engine of the Gods. The armor save is obnoxiously low though, I wish there was a way to raise it, but that's not gonna happen with Elves, I suppose.

I chose to invest in Black Guard over Executioners because I found Executioners to be a tradeoff of higher Strength for attacks later in combat. Black Guard presented themselves as a median between the two with S4 and I5 attacks. I feared that with the natural frailty of elves compared to other races, the later hits with the Executioners might be too dangerous of a gamble (especially since I made this decision in 7e, when there was a chance of a unit being battered so badly that you don't get to attack back), so I settled with the safer bet that I would certainly be able to inflict some damage on the opponent.


Sun Aug 15, 2010 1:01 am
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Slave (off the Altar)

Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2009 10:27 am
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Location: Germany
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I think the big difference it the Cauldron. It buffs the Exes significant, but you could also buff the BG. Give them KB or another attack and see what happens.

If i compare two, i should do it fair. not saying without the Cauldron, as if he is with them, why shouldn't they be buffed, but then, y shouldn't the BG be buffed too XD

As i have not jet played with either, find the discussion here very interesting, thx to all


Sun Aug 15, 2010 9:11 am
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Malekith's Best Friend
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Quote:
toughness 3 WS 3 or 4 str 3 basic unit


I dont know about anyone else but I rarely meet these supposedly typical troops.

Orcs are T4 and S4 in the first round
Marauders most often have flails great weapons or 5+ ward saves
Dwarfs are T4 and mostly have great weapons
Saurus are S & T4

So the dudes you are talking about are other elves or rabble troops that your opponent can afford to lose.


Sun Aug 15, 2010 9:19 am
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Shade
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I think I probably would take execs more often if the gaming group I play with did not have so many Ogre players, losing the killing blow hurts too much imo.


Sun Aug 15, 2010 7:28 pm
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Shade

Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2010 4:04 pm
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Location: Maryland, USA
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xtickx wrote:
I think I probably would take execs more often if the gaming group I play with did not have so many Ogre players, losing the killing blow hurts too much imo.


Non-heroic Killing Blow has no effect on monstrous infantry.


edit: nevermind....miss-read your post


Mon Aug 16, 2010 12:00 am
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Highborn
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Saragos wrote:
I think you overestimate the power of most low armor save troops and underestimate the power of executioners. Our execs are WS5 with a 5+ armor save. Consider the "average" toughness 3 WS 3 or 4 str 3 basic unit. So, they need 4s to hit, 4s to wound, and then we get a 5+ save. I'm no math expert, but somewhere else I've seen these stats posted; that's not a lot of wounds onto the execs. Then, with hits back needing rerollable 3s to hit and 2s to wound with no armor save...we're talking a ridiculous amount of wounds. Execs win combat by a landslide.

Now, certainly, against those same supposed light troops, blackguard are getting even more attacks...but they're wounding on 3s insead of 2s, so it makes up for it. Buff the execs with the cauldron(extra attack) and watch as they tear up pretty much any unit you put them against. Always getting return attacks really helps the execs, making them way more useful than they were in 7th. I used to run blackguard instead of execs, but I've played several games now in 8th and my execs have outperformed my Blackguard in every aspect; whether against light troops or heavy.


Don't factor in the COB with the Executioners without factoring it with the Blackguard as well. Re-rollable hit and miss per combat phase is huge with true horde armies as I don't see how 14 Executioners can do better than 14 Blackguard against Skaven or OnG. I say that Black Guard are still more versatile but can be less killy than Executioners which to say the least is expected. For example I had to play a 2 watchtower games yesterday and having my BG assault that tower and hold it after 10 manning my opponent's dwarves and getting shot at all day, had I had another unit in there it would not have fended off mutiple assaults against it striking first all the time with Warrior Elite to boot. ItP is something that is now underestimated imo.

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Mon Aug 16, 2010 2:35 am
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Trainee Warrior

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I am curious, how do you do with bigger BG blocks against lists that run 2 or more stone throwers? Does your lists pack a lot of warmachine hunters? I've been running a unit of 14 lately in 2x7 formation, but found out that after a few casualties I can't really send them in combat without it becoming a suicide mission. In my group I face 1 dwarf player who boosts his templates to S4, and a tombkings player who always has 2 skull throwers (not sure about the name :D ). I'm kinda reluctant to boost the unit to say, 3x6 because it will probably become a priority target after that and never make it to combat before shot to pieces.


Mon Aug 16, 2010 11:44 am
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