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Recent tournament experiences. 
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Executioner
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Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2009 12:14 am
Posts: 184
Hi all,

I've been testing my DE army against several armies, mainly Empire and Skaven in tournament environment. I just wanted to share soome feelings and conclusions i've come to:

·1st conclusion: As user Meteor has stated in other thread: "I guess we're more like a fragmented glass cannon. When multiple units are pieced together for an attack, we're very destructive, otherwise our individual elements are nothing more than shards of glass."

I've found this to be just true for all my games. With our units being that fragile, it is actually easy for the oppponent to disrupt our offensive moves if he knows what units to target.

·2nd conclusion: Hydras are not that resilient. Only army that has not yet been able to kill my Hydras is Skaven and Vampire Count, who have no form of flamming shooting/magic. Any other army can go for flamming attacks at 10 points cost to administrate it at will and succesfully tear appart Hydras.

·3rd conclusion: High Elves are great for tournaments and have great success at them not only because they can count on Teclis and excellent CC troops, but because it is too hard to get some VPs from their units. In a recent 2000 tourney i attended, 1st place was for a HE who had massacred three times but had given 0 points to all three oponents. Second place was mine, i had also three massacres but i had given to my opponents a total of 1500 VPs. Needless to say i had a much tougher day than the HE player (who is actually a friend of mine). See my point?

·4th conclusion: I usually play Shadow Lore lvl 4. It struggles to create "combos" when facing dual Archlector Empire. Magic phase reduces to casting one single spell at all dice because if you attemp at several casts, you'll probably see them all dispelled. That turns my synergies tactic into a mere "rush ahead with Mindrazor and get some VPs".


And that's all so far. From now on i'll be testing CoB, big blocks of Executioners and Warriors, Stubborn (Dragon) Lord and lvl 2 Sorceresses to see wether i can counter some of those nasty armies out there.

See ya


Sun Sep 05, 2010 2:17 pm
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Dragon Lord
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1st: yes we are, no question there.

2nd: Hydras are still very resilent. You just need to learn how to avoid the new flaming attacks (only one unit can carry the flaming banner... so most likely the really big shooting unit with a banner, and fire mages you'll know where they are)

3rd: High Elves are awesome in close combat... so don't fight them on their terms? For your friend to win all games without giving away any VP he must've faced no shooting armies 3 times... Empire would probably splatter him with S3 and S5 large templates (yay mortars and rocket launchers)

4th: How's dual archlector empire any better at dispelling than any army with 2 level 1 wizards? Archlectors are affected by Winsd of Magic like anyone else and they still need to channel their DD... And they can have only one War Altar and everybody knows how much an Arch Lector without an altar sucks.

_________________
7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)

8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16


Sun Sep 05, 2010 4:50 pm
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Lord of the Dragon Caves
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You are going about things wrong against the Archlectors. Yes, they each generate 2 dispel dice, but they have no bonus to their dispel roll while you have a +4 to cast. Maximize that advantage by casting as many spells as reasonably possible with 2 or 3 dice each. The Empire player will have to let some stuff through and your chance of miscasting will be much lower.

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Sun Sep 05, 2010 5:28 pm
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Rending Star
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The Empire player will have tons of dispel dice (often more than you have in your power pool) but only +2 to dispel (Lvl 2 Wizard).

That should not be enough to shut down a Level 4 with Dagger and a Level 2, but they won't get that many spells out against such a strong magic defense, of course. That's kinda the point of having a strong magic defense, really.

Bye
Thanee


Sun Sep 05, 2010 6:38 pm
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Executioner
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Hi all,

Thanks for sharing your PoV.

@Dalammar:

To set an example, a game i played a week ago against Wood Elves, and another one against Empire:

-Vs WE: 20 man Bows, 30' range, True Lign of Sight, how to hide from this?. He first managed to get a wound on the Hydra and then shot Hail of Doom for a total of 4 wounds.

-Vs Empire: 12 man Xbows, 30' range, same as woodies, but firing a cannon after the first flamming wound.

This playstile can be copied by many armies. To beat Hydras it is not required to slam them in the floor before they reach you, instead dealing 2 or 3 wounds is enough for many armies to deal with them.

Regarding HE, they usually take (against me) either Shadow Lore for Pit of Shades and Mindrazor or Fire Lore so fighting them in my terms without my Hydras is quite hard actually. At least for now (i know i'll get to the point of discovering how to beat them :D).

Also, HE winner did face one shooty army actually, Empire. Other games were against Skaven and another HE. As far as i know, Teclis took Death Lore and finished mortars and cannons casting pure Purple Suns at each of them!. In fact, first Purple Sun killed one mortar, second Purple Sun killed Stank, third Purple Sun ran for 30' finishing the second mortar and a cannon.

HE infantries received three hits from mortars by turn 3, which is pretty above from average, loosing 13 Swordmasters, 5 White Lions and 15 Sea Guard. All units were 25 strong and all 4 of them lasted till turn 6, having killed 2050 VPs.

Had it been a Dwarf gunline, maybe it would have managed to entirely destroy HE infantries, but Purple Sun would have been a lot better than wit Empire...


@Dyvim Tvar:

Each Archlector provides 2 extra DD plus that item that allows to save PD for DD and viceversa. When Winds of Magic provide 6 PD it is truly unlikely that you get the spell you need off unless you throw all dice at it. Whenever you get a 6 in Winds of Magic you'll be facing a 12 DD defence, one 5 and 11 DD, one 4 and 10 DD. Getting spells off is possible, but creating certain juicy combos (i,e: -D3 I -> Pit of Shades on the War Altar) is a lot less probable.

@Thanee:

I haven't tried yet fielding Lvl 4 SSorc and Lvl 2 Sorc as my game expirience is still sitting at 2000 points, i'm only taking the Lvl 4.

Problem with Empire is that, despite boasting a great magic defence, they also have a truly aggresive magic phase. War Altars can cast Light spells with IF but they do not roll on the miscast table. Have you yet seen a Stank charging 30'? lol. Also, as they will usually have extra DD, they may save 1 or 2 for their magic phase.



I've got some good feedback from you all and i'm already planning on putting it into practice as soon as possible, i have definitely got to try and start casting 2 or 3 dice at Empire players to make the most of my +4 to cast.

See ya


Last edited by Pjeos on Sun Sep 05, 2010 10:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Sun Sep 05, 2010 9:58 pm
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Corsair

Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2010 12:39 am
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Dalamar wrote:
Archlectors are affected by Winsd of Magic like anyone else and they still need to channel their DD...


Hmm sorry if I'm missunderstanding in anyway, but I was under the assumption that the Arch Lectors/W-priests didn't have to channel their DD since they're not wizards and therefore cannot channel? I might be totally wrong and in that case I'm sorry bothering, just want to get a clarification.

// Xuza

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Sun Sep 05, 2010 10:02 pm
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Rending Star
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No, you got it right. They do not have to channel.

Bye
Thanee


Sun Sep 05, 2010 11:05 pm
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Dragon Lord
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it's stupid they don't have to channel but oh well..

Still, you mentioned multiple Altars... did they change that in FAQ? Empire army book says War Altar is 0-1.

And lets say he gets those 6DD from Winds of Magic and you rolled poorly on the other dice so it's 7PD (very unlikely to happen)

He gets extra 6 dice (if Rod of Power succeeds, storing two dice it statistically fails twice per game) for total of 12.

You can get:
Level 4 with Sacrificial Dagger = 1 per spell = 5
Level 2 with Darkstar Cloak = 1
Level 4 casting PoD on 1 dice (due to dagger) = 2
Level 2 casting PoD on 2 dice = 1
total of 9 extra dice, so you have 16 PD against his 12 DD.
You should get 1-2 spells off *after* he's out of DD. And might even get some through due to poor dispel rolling.

_________________
7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)

8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16


Mon Sep 06, 2010 4:35 am
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Trainee Warrior

Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2010 1:10 am
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Dalamar wrote:
it's stupid they don't have to channel but oh well..

Still, you mentioned multiple Altars... did they change that in FAQ? Empire army book says War Altar is 0-1.

And lets say he gets those 6DD from Winds of Magic and you rolled poorly on the other dice so it's 7PD (very unlikely to happen)

He gets extra 6 dice (if Rod of Power succeeds, storing two dice it statistically fails twice per game) for total of 12.

You can get:
Level 4 with Sacrificial Dagger = 1 per spell = 5
Level 2 with Darkstar Cloak = 1
Level 4 casting PoD on 1 dice (due to dagger) = 2
Level 2 casting PoD on 2 dice = 1
total of 9 extra dice, so you have 16 PD against his 12 DD.
You should get 1-2 spells off *after* he's out of DD. And might even get some through due to poor dispel rolling.



Correct me if im wrong but.. I thought you could'nt have any more than 12 PD or DD per magic phase?
(cause if im wrong I could have done alot better last game!!)


Mon Sep 06, 2010 5:42 am
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Dark Rider

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You can't have more than 12 PD at the same time. The example of Dalamar is prefectly legal, as long as you cast some spells in between :P


Mon Sep 06, 2010 5:59 am
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Corsair
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For clarification about Empire (my other army):

Only 1 war altar allowed, whatever the size of the army (Empire's FAQ 2010).

Archlectors (AL) and war priests (WP) don't channel.
You can get several archlectors indeed. Each archlector generates two dispel dice, each priest generates one dispel die. No need to channel for that, it is automatic.
There is a magic arcane item which allows a sorcerer to store 1-3 dice for later use, converting PD to DD and vice-versa. It may fail, you roll a die, it fails if the die is below what you stored, i.e. storing 2 dice has 1/6 chance to fail.

If you face 2 AL + 1 WP + 1 level 2,
you roll the magic wind dice,
you get 1-6 more PD than Empire gets DD, but Empire gets 5 more DD plus 1-3 stored dice (capped to 12).
Result is that Empire is likely to get more DD than you have PD, except if you're close to 12. All dispel dice can be used by the sorcerer.


The unique war alter (WA) casts any spell (Empire's choice) from the lore of Light.
If IF/miscast, don't roll for miscast, but the object looses all powers (see p.37). It is not destroyed though (French Empire's FAQ V1.0) but cannot cast anything anymore. It is still a chariot.
EDIT: FAQ V1.1 changed that, the WA is now immune to miscasts. Q. Is the casting of bound spells from the Golden Griffon an ‘innate’ ability? (p53) - A. Yes.
In addition, AL and WP can cast "prayers" like if it was magic objects. AL can cast 2 different among a choice of 5, WP can cast 1 among same choice. Different casters can cast the same prayer. One of the prayers restores ALL wounds to a model.
If miscast (see p.37), they have no adverse effect (except that AL cannot cast the second prayer, this turn).

_________________
Winds never stop blowing, Oceans are borderless. Get a ship and a crew, so the World will be ours! Today the World, tomorrow Nagg! {--|oBrotherhood of the Coast!o|--}


Last edited by Calisson on Mon Sep 06, 2010 11:47 am, edited 2 times in total.



Mon Sep 06, 2010 7:33 am
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Trainee Warrior

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c_freman wrote:
You can't have more than 12 PD at the same time. The example of Dalamar is prefectly legal, as long as you cast some spells in between :P


Didnt even think of that...
Im a little slow so bare with me ;)


Mon Sep 06, 2010 8:34 am
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Executioner
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Dalamar wrote:
it's stupid they don't have to channel but oh well..

Still, you mentioned multiple Altars... did they change that in FAQ? Empire army book says War Altar is 0-1.

And lets say he gets those 6DD from Winds of Magic and you rolled poorly on the other dice so it's 7PD (very unlikely to happen)

He gets extra 6 dice (if Rod of Power succeeds, storing two dice it statistically fails twice per game) for total of 12.

You can get:
Level 4 with Sacrificial Dagger = 1 per spell = 5
Level 2 with Darkstar Cloak = 1
Level 4 casting PoD on 1 dice (due to dagger) = 2
Level 2 casting PoD on 2 dice = 1
total of 9 extra dice, so you have 16 PD against his 12 DD.
You should get 1-2 spells off *after* he's out of DD. And might even get some through due to poor dispel rolling.


Hi there,

I mentioned dual Archlector one of which rides a War altar.

Regarding DE's PD pool, i must say that i can only afford to play 1 lvl 4 in my 2000 points games, so no help from lvl 2's PoD.

This said, against Empire the nerarer you are to 12 PD, the easier it'll be to get some spells off. However, with average rolls in Winds of Magic you'll be facing a close to 12 DD defence. PoD is great help when you have enough dice so that you can afford to get it dispelled, 10 PD, for example. In case you rolled low and you get 5 PD, 11 DD, you may cast it on 1 dice + 1 dice from Sac Dagger, he dispells with 3 dice. Then there are 4 PD against 9 PD and your chances to get any combo in magic phase harshly reduce. At least from my gaming expirience.

As i stated before, i'm still to start trying casting spells with only 2-3 dice to make the most of my +4 to cast. Main drawback to that is that Shadow Lore has some high casting values...

@Calisson:

I've been reading p.37 and i have a doubt you might solve being an Empire player. P.37 states that bound spells contained in items can cast IF but will not cast any further spell during the game while "innate" bound spells such as those used by Warrior Priests can cast on IF but will not cast any further spell during that phase.

So, is the War altar ability not to be considered "innate" as happens with ordinary Warrior priests and will therefore loose it's ability to cast during the rest of the game?. Were i to be wrong, my PoV about Empire is going to change a bit taking into account all that has been said so far...

See ya


Mon Sep 06, 2010 9:46 am
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Corsair
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Oops!
The FAQ V1.1 changed that.

Now:
Q. Is the casting of bound spells from the Golden Griffon an ‘innate’
ability? (p53)
A. Yes.

Therefore, it becomes like a war priest spell: total immunity to miscasts.

_________________
Winds never stop blowing, Oceans are borderless. Get a ship and a crew, so the World will be ours! Today the World, tomorrow Nagg! {--|oBrotherhood of the Coast!o|--}


Mon Sep 06, 2010 11:45 am
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