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Making a dirty, rule-abusing army. 
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Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2008 10:00 pm
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Location: Hag Graef
Warning: I intend here to use as much as possible cheap tactics, disgusting rule abuses, unethical behaviours.
This list is not to be played in a gentlemen’s sportsman environment (or maybe, once, for the fun).
I do not mean that I recommend anything below over real tactics. It is just to examine that.

Pts denial strategy:
The goal is to win. But a small victory is enough. I’ll be happy to win by a margin of 100 VPs.
In order to achieve that, I’ll play pts denial, with only stubborn units and characters avoiding melee. Cheap strategy, but if it is enough to win, that’s fine.

Stubborn units:
- BG (3 of them can be taken).
- Execs or WE within COB’s reach.
- Spearmen, Corsairs or RXBmen with a stubborn character inside (crowned, or khainite). As an assassin is khainite, any core infantry must get one assassin. Cool, it does not count against Hero %.
Frustrating for the opponent, but so be it.

If I take Execs or WE, I need a COB. The best is to make it BSB as well.
If I take only 3 BG units and 1 core unit with a crowned character, I need no COB and the BSB can be a regular Master. In order to keep a reasonable number of models, we’ll consider only corsairs when not taking a COB.

I need a Ld 10 general. Two possibilities:
- a dreadlord,
- or a Ld 9 general inside a unit with the standard of discipline: the standard provides +1Ld to all models inside unit. If the general is there, he gains +1 as well. The unit cannot use the general’s special Ld rule. But nothing prevents all other units to use the modified general’s Ld. Cheap rule, but that’s RAW.

Unit’s disposition.
All units will be stubborn with rerollable Ld 10 (0.7% chances of failing). As a result, they will be nearly ITP and unbreakable.
Being in melee is cool: you face no shooting, magic missiles or direct damage spells.
Unfortunately, there are opponents who hit you. In order to mitigate this disagreement, units could become conga lines: only 2 or 3 opposing models in contact, so that you loose less models. It is not a problem to loose the rank bonus: the units are stubborn anyway. Better, the longer in melee, the longer immune to shooting/damaging spells. So it is nice not to win when you’re stubborn. In order to play as much pts denial as possible, I’ll consider using units made of 1 or 2 lines as often as required.
Cheap tactics, but that’s what it takes to survive longer in this harsh world.

Character’s position.
None of our characters are supposed to fight and risk their lives. Not even assassins!
All characters will be inside large units, where they are immune to BS shooting and benefit from “look out, Sir”. Only exception: COB, but it is very little threatened by most shooting and most magic.
Being inside a melee is cool: you’re immune to shooting and most damaging spells. If the unit is stubborn with rerollable Ld10, you’re immune to fleeing as well.
The one thing you want to avoid is direct hits. How can you achieve that? Just remain in the 2nd rank.
It is the job of the unit’s command to be in the front. Characters go there only if there is some room for them.
The muso and the pennant bearer are never killed, but models in the rear rank are removed instead.
So a unit with 1 or 2 lines will have the muso and the pennant in front, and the characters/champion will remain safely in the 2nd rank until all models but 2 are killed.
And this will happen all the more slowly as there are only 1 or 2 models in contact.
Now wait, the unit may be side-charged!
In the 2nd rank, there are two positions. One side is usually more exposed to the open field. Put the character on the other, safe side.

Example with two units of 39 + 1 character, facing left of the screen:
M = muso, P = pennant, C = character (I dare not say Hero), R = rank&file.

Note that these units may travel sideways if necessary.

Note: if the character is an assassin, be sure to reveal him before the melee begins, otherwise he would be forced to be placed in base contact. If the character is a DH, there is no problem. The advantage of the assassin is that he cannot be killed by missing a “Look Out, Sir” as long as he is not revealed.

In melee.
There is no way to reach any of the 2 characters shown above.
If the two units are fought in the front, each unit gets 2 models in contact plus one R&F and one character getting 1 support attack (and fearing no retaliation).
If one unit is charged in the flank, then all models in contact may fight, they will die faster, but as long as there is a single R&F remaining, the character needs not to be in base contact.
If the units are charged in the rear, the units will just become shorter.

Getting VPs.
How in the world can we get VPs playing this strategy?
As we just want 100 VPs, it is enough to kill at least one opposing character.

The ideal should be to kill one opponent’s character before they reach melee, with either magic or shooting. Unfortunately, opposing characters are likely to be inside a large unit, where they are immune to BS shooting.
Magic offers some interesting spells. I don’t take into account the ones which allow “Look Out, Sir” for a single hit.
Dark Lore #6 Black Horror (to repeat).
Metal #4 allows Look Out, Sir, but this is for D6 hits. Enough to threaten a hero.
Metal #6 affects all models in a unit, with 1/6 chances to kill each of them.
Shadows #5 is a character killer.
Death #0 and #2 can snipe characters at 24”. Death # 5 can snipe only at 12”. None work in melee. Death #6 does work in melee and kills characters.

Unfortunately, opposing characters may come in melee, where they are immune to shooting, MM and DD spells.
There are still possibilities to kill a character in melee with magic, despite that normally, no MM nor DD spell can hit anyone in melee. However, there are some spells which can:
- Dark Lore #5 can be cast in melee.
- Vortexes can be cast at melees. You may loose a few of your own models, no big deal as long as you kill an opposing model. Death #6 Purple Sun.
- Some DD may move into a melee: Shadow #5 Pits of Shade, Fire #6 Fire storm (but less efficient).
The safest is probably Dark Magic. In order to get the spell you want for your level 4, either take Tome of Furion or a level 2.

If the opposing character is in melee, there should be a few of your models in contact, who will get a chance to wound him. Chances are that finally he dies.
Also, if your unit is in frontal contact, then your models in 2nd rank get a single support attack.
This is your chance to get a magic attack: BG champ with Crimson Death, Sorceress with Whip of Agony, Dreadlord with Executioner’s Axe. They all get a single attack, but they will renew it turn after turn, just be patient. The best is that they fear no retaliation so they need no armour!

Army lists.
Let’s design an army according to the principles above.
The army depends heavily on the availability of a COB. There are 3 choices for general.
As you wish to get as many bodies as possible, keep down the number of other characters.

- A COB cannot fight and is somehow vulnerable to some spells.
With a COB, a large choice of units is available. Each core unit must get either one assassin, one DH or the general with the crown. Special units can include BG (able to shelter the general), or Execs & WE.

- A Master can fight with 1 support attack, and wear the crown. It is much cheaper than the COB. Without a COB, you need one single very large core unit, with one character bearing the crown inside, and 3 units of BG. No assassin is required. The other character may join any BG unit. This setting allows to get many models.

- Dreadlord: Ld 10. Free to join any unit, he can take Exe axe (if he doesn’t need a crown).

- Level 4: should take ToF. Either she gets the crown or you need an assassin. A cloaked assassin may help her to get out of trouble, just in case. She must remain inside the unit with the Standard of Discipline, in order to get Ld10.

- DH. Cannot take the crown, but makes her unit stubborn if a COB is there. She must remain inside the unit with the Standard of Discipline, in order to get Ld10.

An army without COB.
One character has the crown and is inside the single core unit. The other units can be BG only in order to be stubborn. The other character remains with one BG unit.
The two units with the two characters (BSB and general) must be 2 wide and remain parallel. The other 2 BG units may fight independently, within Ld range. A good idea is to provide one of these the AP banner and the other one the flaming banner.

The general can be a dreadlord with Exe axe.
In that case, the BSB gets the crown and can get a +1S weapon. He must remain with the core unit.
The general may jump from one BG unit to another one, in order to remain safe but possibly to use his Exe Axe.

If the general is not a dreadlord, then either a high sorc or a DH must remain in the unit with the Standard of Discipline, in order to get Ld10. That unit could be a BG but it is better to take the core, larger unit.
The high sorc needs to be level 4 and take ToF in order to get the spell she wishes.
If it is a DH, she is useless other than for her Ld, but she is cheap and allows a very, very large core unit.

An army with COB.
This army allows to take many more units (each core with an assassin).
The general can be a dreadlord, inside any core unit or BG.
The general can be a supreme sorc.
The general can be a DH, which can join any unit.

Here, you could take a large unit of execs in the front, with no command, to do the real fighting.
On each flank and in the rear, units take the double-line setting (the unit in the rear faces one side and walks sideways). One of these units shelters the general. The COB is in the middle of the square.

Another possibility is to make many parallel conga lines.
The larges ones are on both sides.
The inner conga lines don’t get in melee if they don’t want. If ever the opportunity arises, some of them may charge, in order to get after rewarding characters.
As the inner conga lines are not threatened from the sides, the unit sheltering the general may remain in a single line if this is better.

Example 1: Dreadlord and Master BSB.
220 Dreadlord + Exe Axe (in any BG unit)
140 BSB with crown (in corsairs).
281 20 BG, M, P all BG on same side of corsairs
281 20 BG, M, P All units in parallel lines of 2.
281 20 BG, M, P
110 assassin + cloak (to sling one character to safety, and to take less models)
680 64 corsairs, M, P, SSS
You can take less corsairs and buy some armour to the two characters.
Total 1993.

Example 2: COB and Level 4.
275 Level 4. Dark. ToF (wants soulstealer & black horror)
225 COB. BSB

350 31 AHW corsairs, M&P, SSS, with sass (guarding rear). 2 lines.
150 20 spearmen. FC, std of discipline. (SS in there). (Cloaked sass in there)
408 34 naked execs (front) 2 ranks
192 16 naked execs (side) 2 columns
192 16 naked execs (side) 2 columns
90 naked sass
110 cloak sass.
Total 1993.

I'm aware it is cheap, dirty, unsportsman.
But could it be efficient?

Winds never stop blowing, Oceans are borderless. Get a ship and a crew, so the World will be ours! Today the World, tomorrow Nagg! {--|oBrotherhood of the Coast!o|--}

Fri Sep 17, 2010 10:16 pm
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Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2009 5:04 am
Posts: 160
Location: Within the nightmare twists and turns of Hag Graef.
In regards to magic.

Take maybe 3 wizards and do death lore and dark lore spread. Enjoy our long magic phases and character sniping potential. That way any characters that would be scary are nullified.

Most of which nullify armor saves and purple sun nullifying all saves. Could be potentially gross.

"I have heard the call to power! Who of you can say you'd dare tread the same path as I?"

Sat Sep 18, 2010 9:31 am
Profile YIM
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Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2009 12:14 am
Posts: 184
Pretty dirty indeed.

How do you think it'll work against shooty dwarves?

Sat Sep 18, 2010 10:04 am
Black Guard
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Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2010 11:53 pm
Posts: 296
Location: NZ
Dirty? I believe it is called 'playing to one's strengths' :) { just jokes, get that sac dag away from my throat..}

Though to be honest, I think I will be changing my SS Generals 'lookout sir' unit from RxB to Spears with the Standard of Discipline from now on. They were going to get knifed anyways.

Group 28
Name - Seijl Illydrien Class- Shade
Character Stats
- WS 6 - - S 3 - - T 3 - - D 4 - - I 4 -
MC Light Armour, MC Buckler, MC Longsword,, Repeater Crossbow, Dagger w/ UC, Dagger w/ DV Shade Cloak. Field Kit (Healing x3), Vials of Unseen Chains (x3 uses) , Vials of Dark Venom (x4 uses) , Lamia Fang, Harpy Claws
Circlets : 260, , Emerald Eye (200Circ.) Rations: 10/10 Bolts: 16/20 , Null Stone
Basic Stealth - Heal

Sat Sep 18, 2010 10:32 am

Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2007 10:15 am
Posts: 156
This is effective but risky. Level 4 on Dark Peg death magic with Power Scroll. You will also need a level 2 with Death magic to get this to work. Roll for the spells for the level 2 first. After you get your 2 spells the other 4 are for the level 4. This means that your level 4 should be rolling all the meanest death magic spells. Now this tactic is not without great risk however in a TOURNAMENT setting when you are trying to win you may want to try it. Turn 1 fly peg Soc up power scroll the big Purple sun right down the enemy lines. Again its high risk high reward. However you most likely will refill your PD pool depending on what you can kill and you will be able to extend your magic phase. If you want to protect the level 4 take a pack of Harpies to screen for her and the 4+ pendant or the PoK.

Also I know this is about DE but Slann do the same thing and can possibly kill your Sorc with cupped hands. The only differance being the Lore of Life and Dwellers below.

Sat Sep 18, 2010 1:20 pm
Malekith's Best Friend
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Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2006 7:45 am
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I don't really think you will even be able to win with that setup/intention...Nice that you 'won't break', but this is just as long as you still have a unit surrounding you. If the enemy gets a chance to charge one of your units with a lot of units simultanously, which is quite possible in 8th with an army like the one you posted, and gets to kill the unit to the last man, you are quite screwed. Furthermore, characters in units are not safe anymore in this edition. There are enough lores that can snipe characters out of units or that can make sure your offensive tactics (magic probably, which you further on, in your army list, don't even include) will not come to work. If you want to abuse the rules, go for the following instead:

Death Hag, COB (general)
Master, BSB, Banner of Nagarythe
261 Warriors, musician

And deploy them with their flank towards the enemy at a table edge so you can sqeeze the death hag between the unit and your board's edge with the BSB out of reach of the enemy.

Wait six turns.

And you might want to exchange 36 warriors for a dreadlord with 5 null talismans

"Ceterum censeo Ulthuan esse delendam"

3/4 of games are won by deathstars. Copy this into your signature if you still use real tactics to win.

Sun Sep 19, 2010 9:55 am
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Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2008 10:00 pm
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Location: Hag Graef
Good "dirty" idea.
Except that you need 3 non-character units.
Also, you need to kill some stuff otherwise you will only get a draw.

Winds never stop blowing, Oceans are borderless. Get a ship and a crew, so the World will be ours! Today the World, tomorrow Nagg! {--|oBrotherhood of the Coast!o|--}

Sun Sep 19, 2010 5:13 pm

Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2008 11:51 am
Posts: 366
That's so dirty I feel wrong just looking at it. Also you would probably get slapped if you played most people.

Sun Sep 19, 2010 10:15 pm
Malekith's Best Friend
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Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2008 3:40 am
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Only problem is a ctapult landing a rock on the BSB's head followed by a failed look out sir.
It's an interesting idea make it physically impossible to get into contact with the BSB. If you get the right terrain and play meeting engagement you could line the massive unit along the diagonal but facing backwards and then stick a whole stack of ranged guys on a hill.

"I will embrace death without regret as I embrace life without fear"

Mon Sep 20, 2010 3:24 am
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Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2008 10:34 pm
Posts: 424
Calisson wrote:
Spearmen, Corsairs or RXBmen with a stubborn character inside (crowned, or khainite). As an assassin is khainite, any core infantry must get one assassin. Cool, it does not count against Hero %.
Frustrating for the opponent, but so be it.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but since the Assassin still has the "Killer not a Leader" rule, how can the unit use his leadership or Stubborn?

I get the Crown of Command, or a Death Hag option, but the assassin doesn't make sense to me. I grant this may be a leftover sensibility from 7th, but I don't see how the rule allows the unit to be stubborn of a non-accessible leadership.

"Do Not Meddle In The Affairs Of Dragons, For You Are Crunchy And Taste Good With Ketchup"

My motto: Whether I win, lose, or draw the game; I win as long as my opponent has pulled their hair out by the end of the game. :twisted:

Honoring Khaine since March 2003.

Mon Sep 20, 2010 12:55 pm
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Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2008 10:00 pm
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Location: Hag Graef
It is a 7th ed leftover sensibility.
It has been discussed elswhere, the conclusion was that, RAW speaking, a stubborn character does make the whole unit stubborn. The killer not leader rule prevents the 'sass to transfer his Ld, not his stubborness. I guess that the proximity of the COB provides him a communicating enthusiasm.

Winds never stop blowing, Oceans are borderless. Get a ship and a crew, so the World will be ours! Today the World, tomorrow Nagg! {--|oBrotherhood of the Coast!o|--}

Mon Sep 20, 2010 1:05 pm
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