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Hello guys,

I'd like to share my small experiment wit the Hexbomb. (Hexbomb, you'remy ...)

What?
A small unit of Witchelves, say 6, no upgrades.

Really?
You get 18 poisoned hatredded attacks with highish ini and one deployment point for mere 60P.

Why?
Dont't think of MSU, don't think of winning combats, don't think of taking out tough guys.

Be precise!
Think of a Close-combat-missile. Let them run ahead of your lines and charge the typical T3 horde unit (goblins) and butcher some rank. Your 60P are gone for sure, maybe leading the enemy forward. This opens you the possibility to care for another threat with the shooters & magic.
The enemy can ignore them and might feel how a bee stings (and dies) or put 1-2 turns of resources to it which leaves your Troops more room to operate.
There are the small odds that you do so much damage and a witch survives and the enemy breaks (usually at stubborn generals LD with BSB).

Did you test it?
In my last two games of 1.5kP I fielded 2x6WE and was surprised. One held & crippled 20 ghouls and the other harvested zombies as well as one catching 40 night goblins outside the generals range.

Any limits?
Well don't go for orcs. T4/5+/6+ is beyond the limit of intension. Maybe the orcs with less saves will suffer enough. But you can combine 2 Hexbombs for an orcish horde.

That's it?
Well, you can think of investing more points to go for 7 wide for maximum attacks on the standard 5 wide units and maybe a championess to get into the "safety" of a chellange in the hope to kill the champ, survive and be not destroyed outright. That is usually then a break test for the opponent.

Kind regards
CATR.

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Last edited by Cat-the-odd on Tue Sep 28, 2010 1:59 pm, edited 3 times in total.



Tue Sep 28, 2010 1:20 pm
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I truly love the idea of multiple small we units. Its exploiting the new striking at I order to the limit. Really must try this at home.

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Tue Sep 28, 2010 1:35 pm
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Yep, I had also toyed with that idea, but havn't tried it yet. :)

Kamikaze Witch Elves! :D

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Thanee


Tue Sep 28, 2010 2:17 pm
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mmmhm, it is an interesting prospect indeed, I once tried a small suicide squad of 5 for KBing characters. Shades took that job so I invested those 50pts elsewhere. Though I truely love the damage WEs can dish out, so I've been running them in a unit of 12 in 6x2. Perhaps I should try and split them into two units of six?

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Tue Sep 28, 2010 3:31 pm
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Yeah, I've toyed with this a little.. ol' MSE/MSU isn't quite what it used to be though.. they are surprisingly effective against medium sized, low-no armor units. Adding in a cauldron and magic, they become a hell of a force..

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Tue Sep 28, 2010 5:23 pm
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I'm not really convinced. Yes, the unit may do some damage, but just about any unit of 20 or more will have enough attacks coming back such that there is a reasonable chance that all of the Witch Elves will get killed. I think Witch Elves can be effective in smaller-than normal unit sizes due to their high number of attacks, but 5 to 7 is too small for my taste.

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Tue Sep 28, 2010 5:36 pm
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It's a tough one. For me the issue is somewhat that it only takes two or three deaths and the unit is effectively useless (3 witch elves, even with 9 hatred poison attacks) is not going to scare anyone. Personally I'd rather go with 5 harpies for their long range flying movement and skirmisher properties.

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Tue Sep 28, 2010 6:03 pm
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Meteor wrote:
Though I truely love the damage WEs can dish out, so I've been running them in a unit of 12 in 6x2. Perhaps I should try and split them into two units of six?


Same here. They work very well as a 12, with a massive frontage on request from a musician, plus there are usually enough after round 1 to be stubborn and stop charge/overrun


Tue Sep 28, 2010 6:03 pm
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Suppose the WE are attacking a unit of Bretonnian men at arms (strength 4 of the pole arms):
18 attacks on 3+ to hit, 12 hits in first round. 16 hits after second round.
This means 8 wounds, from which 3 are saved = 5 kills
In return: Lets say the Bretonnians are 8 models wide. This means 16 attacks on 4+. 8 hits And about 5 kills. The Witch elves are most probably loosing the fight because of banner and extra ranks.

Conclusion: It works only in case you attack strength 3, toughness 3 models and not more than 7 models wide in the front or in case you attack in the flank or rear. Also the COB could have a positive influence.

personally I like more the little bit bigger units of black guard. (10 f.e.) They cost more (70 points), but are much more endurable and will not break that easy from combat. Against the above mentioned unit they should hold at least 3 turns in which they will do more harm to the opponent, and gives plenty of time to other unit to flank attack or assist in other way.


Tue Sep 28, 2010 6:23 pm
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Nice example -- even brettonian infantry slaughter a unit of 5 or 6 witch elves. This I'd not to say you shouldn't use witch elves, but is just an illustration that a handful is not enough.

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Tue Sep 28, 2010 7:00 pm
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smallish WE units can do great, the 5/6 strong (or as i like them, 8 strong normally deployed 2x4) can do the folowwing:

- catch a flank (no more mandatory frontal charges remember, a Ld tst and they can tone down their frenzy) in a flank, they will win almost any combat, since there are hardly return attacks

- assassinate a char, esp mages, 3 WE BtB = 9 hatred poisoned attacks = dead mage.

- and just thin down those hordes as mentioned before.

I used to run hellebron at the start of 7th DE with 10 of these units, stopped doing it because it was to effective, no fun at all anymore. now, with striking at I6, you dont care about getting a charge anymore, you strike first in 90% of the cases.

and for those saying, lose a few and they are useless, not true at all, they can still easily kill a warmaching, assassinate a char, put a scare in a big monster.


Tue Sep 28, 2010 7:04 pm
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Hi,

Just to clarify the issue. I plan to loose the WE on that shot. They are a bomb after all. Not the main force but the softener.

Cat.

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Tue Sep 28, 2010 8:18 pm
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Quote:
Just to clarify the issue. I plan to loose the WE on that shot. They are a bomb after all. Not the main force but the softener.


I guess the issue is whether or not you make your points back. E.g. You'd need to slaughter 15 goblins with shield and light armour to make back the points. If you achieve less than that reliably, then you're losing out.

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Tue Sep 28, 2010 8:45 pm
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Red... wrote:
I guess the issue is whether or not you make your points back. E.g. You'd need to slaughter 15 goblins with shield and light armour to make back the points. If you achieve less than that reliably, then you're losing out.


No it doesn't work that way.
It's never that way. Don't count point cost and point destruction for single units with DE. We let all troops work together.

It's more like reducing an enemy unit to a more handable size.

Imagine the possibility to do damage before the opponent reaches your lines. How you do the damage is up to you, but you want to do as much as possible in the early turns.
E.g. you have first turn. You can cast 2 times and shoot 2 times before the enemy s in range to launch attacks. Either you go with the Laserlist, maximizing magic & shooting but with cuts on cc units. You rely on 2 turns of dice rolls and the odds that your marchblockers work and the diverters really divert the enemy. With the hexbomb in your troops you can get either a bomb cc phase on turn 2 or you are spared one time nasty shooting at your assault troops (BG vs. muskets anyone?). Having 60P. of witches destroyed might be better than loosing many expensive elites.

I'll field the Hexbomb in the next few games to get a bit more statistic of success. ;).

I found also this tactic from 7th edition in the long WE DRIACH article. And there the witches did not srike first when attacked.

cat

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Last edited by Cat-the-odd on Tue Sep 28, 2010 9:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Tue Sep 28, 2010 9:05 pm
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uruk-hai wrote:
Suppose the WE are attacking a unit of Bretonnian men at arms (strength 4 of the pole arms):
18 attacks on 3+ to hit, 12 hits in first round. 16 hits after second round.
This means 8 wounds, from which 3 are saved = 5 kills
In return: Lets say the Bretonnians are 8 models wide. This means 16 attacks on 4+. 8 hits And about 5 kills. The Witch elves are most probably loosing the fight because of banner and extra ranks.



No, not at all...

18 attacks with hatred AND POISON vs WS2, T3, AS6+ (no shield with haldberd...) means 8,3 wounds:

18 attacks=> ~66,5% hits first round, ~88,8% after rerolls (~16 hits), of which ~22% (~4 hits) are poisoned attacks. This equals ~55,5% (~10) wounds of which ~1% are saved. In total, 8,3 wounds.

In return, let's suppose a much more logical frontage of 5 (8? seriously? either go for 10 for horde or go for 5 for rows):

10 attacks => 50% hits => ~33,3% wounds => 3,3 unsaved wounds.

This means that the combat is decided by who charged: +5 for wounds, -3 for rows (supposing they where at least 28 to begin with), -1 for standard... if the brets charged they win because of the musician, else they lose.

Of course, the point costs of both units are similar, but it is also true that the mens at arms provide something unique to the brets (cannon fodder + massive SCR) while the witches are just suicide runners


Tue Sep 28, 2010 9:06 pm
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Red... wrote:
Quote:
Just to clarify the issue. I plan to loose the WE on that shot. They are a bomb after all. Not the main force but the softener.


I guess the issue is whether or not you make your points back. E.g. You'd need to slaughter 15 goblins with shield and light armour to make back the points. If you achieve less than that reliably, then you're losing out.



wrong here, the issue is wether ye can confuse the opponent and make him worry. losing 60 prs wont make up for 15 goblins killed in a unit, but might make the difference of those golbins losing their steadfast to your units a turn later.

units dont have to make their points back, that is sheer nonsense, your total army just has to earn more points than your opponents total army, thats all that counts in the end.


Tue Sep 28, 2010 9:10 pm
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Actually it doesn't matter if a unit "makes its points back". It matters how well the unit facilitates the implementation of the battle plan.

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Tue Sep 28, 2010 9:18 pm
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It will work, everything will work once or twice but that is just about it for me. This is just me but I aim for effectiveness and reliability. Sure your 6 WE can kill a small group in perhaps a 1000 or 1500 game but I simply cannot consider them in larger games. Kill 2 or so units and the unit is rendered useless and to top it off can cause panic to your battleline. Not only could you lose your Witchelves, you could also end up losing your spearblock or knights. MSU is not dead because if you really think about it, in a 2500 game, a unit worth 200 or less points is till MSU actually. In 6th ed 5 Dark Riders were MSU at 2000, in 7th ed 5 DarkRiders at 2250 could stay at 5 but wouldn't hurt to be bumped to 6. With the advent of new rules and environment 5 Dark Riders would either do something critical in the game or die senselessly. My point and case any infantry unit except maybe for Harpies below 10 is too fragile even if your opponent has minimal shooting or 2 wizards and uses even a signature spell using excess powerdice to take it out. In 8th Edition it's all or nothing, you score VP's as all or nothing, you win games with all or nothing.

Just my observation. For people wanting to retain the MSU feel of Dark Elves, try multiple units of Shades. The scout rule alone gives them great survivability, tactical advantage over your opponent and makes short work of warmachines. When used over opponent that are not used to fighting Shades, you can exploit deployment and marchblock, shoot, hunt at will. Against a seasoned opponent, they will adjust to keep his flanks safe therefore deploy more conservatively. Either way you get choose where they enp up and with the amount of terrain in a normal 8th edition game, there's always a spot where they can unleash their BS5 repeating shots. Sorry if this may sound to derail this thread.

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Wed Sep 29, 2010 1:00 am
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uruk-hai wrote:
Suppose the WE are attacking a unit of Bretonnian men at arms (strength 4 of the pole arms):
18 attacks on 3+ to hit, 12 hits in first round. 16 hits after second round.
This means 8 wounds, from which 3 are saved = 5 kills
In return: Lets say the Bretonnians are 8 models wide. This means 16 attacks on 4+. 8 hits And about 5 kills. The Witch elves are most probably loosing the fight because of banner and extra ranks.

Conclusion: It works only in case you attack strength 3, toughness 3 models and not more than 7 models wide in the front or in case you attack in the flank or rear. Also the COB could have a positive influence.

personally I like more the little bit bigger units of black guard. (10 f.e.) They cost more (70 points), but are much more endurable and will not break that easy from combat. Against the above mentioned unit they should hold at least 3 turns in which they will do more harm to the opponent, and gives plenty of time to other unit to flank attack or assist in other way.



WRONG, WRONG, WRONG

for one, it will be more wounds due to poison (10 wounding hits to be precise), but for 2, why the hell would you charge that block frontal? Frenzy is no mandatory charge anymore.

now calculate the CR on a flank (+1 CR flank bonus, less attacks back) and the brets lose, badly, need to take a breaktest (at stubborn, but well any test can be failed, esp on the bret peasant lousy Ld).

no one in their right mind will use warmachines to shoot at these, and if one unit dies to to shooting (or magic, but magic missiles are not that common anymore, that is another unit in full working order left.

and that bret block of 30 or so, is suddenly bound to be NOT steadfast anymore on the next charge on it anymore, after losing about 8 models allready.

but well, seems like everyone thinks new edition, need big blocks that do everything on their own and need to worry about big block killer spells, you think these 6 WE worry about a dwellers below? or a purple sun? or any kill the whole unit spell?
I dont think so, but they can deny that mage the needed LoS to launch that spell and they definetly can threaten that mage and sure as hell, your tactics wont go down the drain for losing them a battle without acomplishing anything.


Wed Sep 29, 2010 1:47 am
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its easy to say "flank charge them". Sure it can be done with maneovuring and such, but if you opponents half decent, they wont let you get that flank.

I think its a good idea tbh, its 50-60 points that is can give a headache for the enemy. However, because you need to wipe out units to gain VPs, opponents will just shoot at them, and lets be honest its not hard to kill 5 or 6 naked T3 elves. There are better ways to run Witch Elves ie 18 (6 by 3) with FC, BOM and manbane on hag.

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Wed Sep 29, 2010 2:08 am
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Cat-the-Odd wrote:
Hi,

Just to clarify the issue. I plan to loose the WE on that shot. They are a bomb after all. Not the main force but the softener.

Cat.
Yup, that's how I use all my DE combat units now. There are units out there that we just can't beat without softening up. Sacrificial units of BG or witches or a throwaway chariot help out here. Plus, 75% of the hitting power of a witch unit resides in the front rank, so you are better off with 2 units of front rankers than one double rank unit...

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Wed Sep 29, 2010 2:22 am
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@ C_Freman. Oops forgot the poison part :oops: (happens when you actually never used them) Makes them much better indeed.

@ Valkyre. I agree that you should not attack them in the front. Question is if you can attack them in the side. Nowadays I am experimenting with using only small very mobile units, with a support of repeater crossbowmen and magic. In this strategy the whitch elves in such a unit might find a place. Since I have much more quick and annoying units this unit might fit in the strategy.
Another use for them might be: To sacrifice them to save a more important unit from a charge. Place them in front of an enemy unit which is threatening an important unit (For example repeater crossbowmen with sorceress) to charge. And place it in this way that in case the witch elves loose and there will be an overrun, they will not run into this unit which should be protected.


Wed Sep 29, 2010 5:28 am
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Hi mates and captains.

Ichiyo1821 wrote:
MSU is not dead ...

Another clarification :-).

It is not MSU. I did not tell you about the rest of the army. Just like a night golin unit has Fanatics, you cannot say ther are no Trolls.

Sulla wrote:
Sacrificial units of BG or witches or a throwaway chariot help out here.

That's the kins of idea. Yay! Though you have to pay for higher strength.

Even 10 unequipped Spearelves can do that kind of trick, less efficiently I must add.

Kind regards, CATR.

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Wed Sep 29, 2010 5:40 am
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uruk-hai wrote:
@ C_Freman. Oops forgot the poison part :oops: (happens when you actually never used them) Makes them much better indeed.

@ Valkyre. I agree that you should not attack them in the front. Question is if you can attack them in the side. Nowadays I am experimenting with using only small very mobile units, with a support of repeater crossbowmen and magic. In this strategy the whitch elves in such a unit might find a place. Since I have much more quick and annoying units this unit might fit in the strategy.
Another use for them might be: To sacrifice them to save a more important unit from a charge. Place them in front of an enemy unit which is threatening an important unit (For example repeater crossbowmen with sorceress) to charge. And place it in this way that in case the witch elves loose and there will be an overrun, they will not run into this unit which should be protected.


How mobile can a movement 5 infantry get these days? Honestly speaking if I were to devout 60 points as a screen why would it be WE? Wouldn't it be better to consider a unit that was capable of achieving more if the opportunities allow so? A 6 man infantry unit that is not even skirmishing already takes a considerable space on the board which could have been better used to space my units enough to avoid that charge in the first place. Again using suicide squads to "soften" units you intend to take out in the first place might seem a grand idea but in the general scheme of things its points better spent elsewhere. For that amount of points I can actually make a unit of mine more resistant or more powerful thus achieving my primary goal of eliminating the said unit without giving up the extra VP's. If he is capable of taking out my main unit and ignores that suicide squad or better has an efficient way of taking them out, I'm just biting myself in the ass for all the troubles. If my suicide squad succeeds and my main unit does not in taking out that unit, I would have gained nothing. In the first place I were to encounter a unit I simply cannot deal with, there are other more effective ways of handling it.

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Wed Sep 29, 2010 5:51 am
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@ Ichyo. I started the new edition with using big units. (as everybody was doing) Somehow with this tactic I couldn't get any success. With magic or with warmachines it is too easy too deminish our big units too small units again before the moment they come to battle.
Than I started with a lot of very mobile units with support of repeater crossbowmen and magic. With this tactics (at least till 2200 points) I was much more successfull. The hydra's, Cold one chariots, Cold one knights, harpies, Shades with assassin, Dark riders and small unit of Black guard are from the first round a serious threat for the enemy. In most cases they are too afraid to attack something because one or two other units are standing aside to counter attack.
One to the main headache is to protect the main repeater crossbow units with the sorcerers. To have a small Witch elves unit standby next to it, can be very effective to save it. With this tactic everything comes to combinations. One or two units are saveguarding other units. I need to try out is Witch elves are enough mobile for this function.


Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:17 am
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