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50 Executioners 
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Malekith's Personal Guard
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Hi guys,

Long time not posting but i thought i would pop in to see if anyone else has had experience running a big Executioner unit.

I have a tournament coming up and i don't fancy taking my usual list so i thought about taking something a bit different.

I really like the theory behind a huge exe. horde but am struggling to fit it into a decent army (2400pts)

My thinking is that they can take on anything in the game over a few rounds, including letting themselves get flanks then reforming to smash face in round 2.

I look forwards to hearing people thoughts on this.

Cheers
Ben.

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Sat Oct 02, 2010 7:37 pm
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Corsair

Joined: Sun Aug 02, 2009 9:18 am
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The rest of your army is what? cauldron bsb, lvl 4 sorceress as something to protect the executioners from shooting and magic so you don't lose a quarter of your army before combat.
Your choice of 600 points of core infantry. Then 600 points of something else
would probably be quite effective

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Sat Oct 02, 2010 9:38 pm
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Malekith's Best Friend
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Give them the Banner of Murder, armour piercing will work wonders and give you an extra edge.

Also, even though this isnt popular amongst Druchii.net, Id take a BSB Hag with ASF banner, it will let you strike first most of the time to minimise casualties (even though there is 50, the less casualties the better). The hag is somewhat unprotected, but 30ish attacks from the executioners should be enough to destroy the enemy unit, unless its horde, but in this case you will kill enough for them to lose stubborn and you win combat by a landslide, so if you lose the hag, its not so bad. Give her 5+ ward and hand of khaine also to protect her.

Then the rest of the army should be lvl4 and COB as anchanrogar said, fill core with some dark riders, a spear block or two and some crossbows, and get either a hydra or a few bolt throwers.

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Sat Oct 02, 2010 11:59 pm
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Dark Rider

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I dont doubt it can work, but it has such a bull's eye painted on it for rock lobbers, trebuchets, screaming skulls, mortars, grudge throwers, scrappalaunchers, hell cannon, cygors, mm.. am i missing more rock lobber alikes? ah, yes, those skaven versions

then we get all flame thrower alikes,

then not to mention flames of the phoenix, curse of years, curse of the leper, black horror, soul stealer, flame storm, metal nr 6 dwellers below, the 13th spell, infernal gateway and i again dont doubt i am missing some spells.

At least no one should be telling you you brought something they could not cope with :)


Sun Oct 03, 2010 12:16 am
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Trainee Warrior

Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2010 7:17 pm
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I did some experiments with this kind of unit. Unfortunately most of the times all firepower and magic was going to this unit and before it started to do its duty it was so weakened that a CoC would do more harm to the enemy. :(


Sun Oct 03, 2010 4:55 am
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Executioner
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I'm planning on bringing this to a WoC match, but other from that I would take such a pricy unit for all the reasons above.


Sun Oct 03, 2010 5:04 am
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Executioner
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I've ran a 30 man unit before, along with a silly list, but the execs was dwindled to five models before it reached combat against a dwarf player who wasn't using a full war machine gunline.

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Jacks -Shade
- WS 5 - - S 3 - - T 2 - - D 6 - - I 5 -

Equipment
Short Sword, MC Long Sword*, Dagger, RxB & RHB [20/10] MC Shade Cloak, 4 Throwing Daggers, 3x Healing Vials, 451C, [3]Dark Venom, [4]Unseen Chains, Food, Dark Steed- Spike

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Basic Stealth, Awareness, TWF, Suithenlu Khythan, Ride

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Eye of the Jabberwock

*Magical properties possibly imbued


Sun Oct 03, 2010 5:21 am
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I'm not a fan of big units in the DE list. There are a lot of things that do a lot of damage. If you want a lot of executioners, I'd say 2 units of 21 are less at risk from a dwellers or flames of the phoenix etc. The problem with executioners is that they are so bad against the other 2 good cc armies (HE and WoC). So if you want executioners, you need the rest of your list chosen very carefully.

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Sun Oct 03, 2010 7:11 am
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Sulla, i agree executioners are bad against HEs, but how are they bad against WOC? S6 with KB wounds them on 2s with next to no save... whats your reasoning?

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Sun Oct 03, 2010 9:39 am
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Cold One Knight

Joined: Sun Nov 03, 2002 3:47 am
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I really believe that with this edition the concept of mmu is best for use. As super sized units of anything, except spears; is just too big a target for shooting and spells and that is in my opinion one of our biggest weaknesses this addition. I find that the 18-21 range really works well for most of our innfantry. It is enough to hit hard, last for a bit if you get stuck in and let's you survive some incoming fire/magic before comabt. If the unit does get obliterated it isn't a crippling event for the army as you can put several of them in a list.
Just my 2 cents and if you were going to go huge exec unit I think this is the one scenario where the hag bsb with the asf banner is necessary and viable.


Sun Oct 03, 2010 2:08 pm
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Corsair

Joined: Sun Aug 02, 2009 9:18 am
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Still the ASF banner bsb death-hag is likely to be a 160-200 points write off, and as benji says he wants to use an exec unit which can take a flank charge, reform and murder anything in the game. In that instance such a bsb and asf would probably be wasted (harder to hide the hag out of base contact), could get another 15 odd executioners instead; much harder to kill :D

As a banner for the unit Id potentially go for lichebone pennant or standard of discipline if only to preserve the heavy investment of points... Do 3 ranks of executioners need armour piercing for more assistance with can opening?

Im in the 20 or less executioners camp as well, big units = big risks. Less is more and all that modernist stuff.

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Sun Oct 03, 2010 8:25 pm
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Warrior
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I've been playing around with a unit of 21 (3x7) with mixed results so far. I'd be a bit worried about how small the rest of my army would be if I ran 50 of them. It will be interesting to hear how you get on with them.

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Sun Oct 03, 2010 10:17 pm
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Malekith's Best Friend
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I faced a unit of 40 Executioners and they couldn't win their points back. All they fought all game were garbage units. And because my opponent had so many points tied up in that unit, I was able to handle everything else he had. If you cost more than 10 points, you don't go Horde.


Sun Oct 03, 2010 11:36 pm
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Demetrius the Betrayer wrote:
Sulla, i agree executioners are bad against HEs, but how are they bad against WOC? S6 with KB wounds them on 2s with next to no save... whats your reasoning?
Put them up against frenzied marauders with great weapons in horde formation, even if you kill more, you still lose because they cost less than half an executioner per model... They are better vs frenzied halberd warriors, coming out slightly on top assuming you have the numbers to ride out the initial 10 or so casualties.

But the main reason not to take them vs warriors is the damn double hellcannon. Mass casualties and then panic, often with the doom totem reducing your Ld. And reducing executioners down to a smaller number means ASL becomes very critical. They need numbers to ensure some are still alive to strike back after enemy attacks.

Plus, spending a lot on executioners means you have a lot of points invested in units your characters can't shelter in; not always a problem, but sometimes you make a list and find your characters all cramped in one or two units because of the khainite rule excluding them from others. As I said, not always a concern, but with magic heavy lists it can be, because you don't want 2 casters in the same unit in case of miscasts.

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Mon Oct 04, 2010 12:54 am
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So conclusion should be: a big unit of executioners, according to most of us, is not worthwile, for reasons mentioned above.

In case most of us agree with this, than executioners will be again a not very popular choice in this edition. :cry:


Mon Oct 04, 2010 7:24 am
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Corsair
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uruk-hai wrote:
executioners will be again a not very popular choice in this edition.
Face it: ASL means that they must be able to cope with some causalties before they get a chance to strike. If the opponent has a large unit, they have to be able to receive more punishment before they can hit.
Conclusion:
MSE Execs are not feasible.
Either you give them ASF
or you take a large unit
or both.

This said, a large unit of Execs, backed with COB and magic, can become the backbone of your army - at least in theory.
The comments above show that it does nor work under some conditions, or without the appropriate support.
The unit gets targeted by all shooting/warmachines/magic.
Any solution?
Shades & harpies & peggy hunters are required to chase down warmachines.
Corsairs or expandable spearmen are required to provide a living hard cover against BS shooting.
Strong magic defense is required.
All the failures mentioned above, did they happen despite having all these available? Or because not having them all?

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Mon Oct 04, 2010 10:10 am
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Executioner
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I was constantly giving my 30man unit 5+ ward at the least and had a lv2 metal mage supporting with glittering robes, the magic department didn't quite work out. I had a 100spearelf line across the board, the screen didn't help because cannons and stone throwers bypass them. Even when the thrower scatters, it usually splats a large number of executioners.

However, you're spending a lot of points in other supporting elements just to ensure your executioner hammer works. Making them in essence, more expensive than just the unit itself. I had seen someone else play a 7x5 unit before, where a horde of dragon princes overran into them, and got butchered. So it works when you arrive relatively intact and are up against other expensive elite units.

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Jacks -Shade
- WS 5 - - S 3 - - T 2 - - D 6 - - I 5 -

Equipment
Short Sword, MC Long Sword*, Dagger, RxB & RHB [20/10] MC Shade Cloak, 4 Throwing Daggers, 3x Healing Vials, 451C, [3]Dark Venom, [4]Unseen Chains, Food, Dark Steed- Spike

Skills
Basic Stealth, Awareness, TWF, Suithenlu Khythan, Ride

Magic Item
Eye of the Jabberwock

*Magical properties possibly imbued


Mon Oct 04, 2010 10:46 am
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Dark Rider

Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2010 1:29 pm
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well, there is in my opinion a difference between a 20 big unit and a 50 big unit (not just in point costs)

a template on a 50 big one wil almost always still hit it with a decent scatter, where it will miss a 20 big one.

e.g. on a 50 big unit, indirect fire is not just viable, it will work wonders, on a 20 big its a dang big risk still.

vs HE, it will work just like out other units will work, ASL vs ASF will work out like ASI (always strike at Ini) will vs ASF. only withces and BG are at an adv vs HE due to higher In to not give them rerolls.


Mon Oct 04, 2010 12:15 pm
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Malekith's Best Friend
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The keys to playing a Dark Elven army has always been, and continues to be, teamwork between unit, combined charges, and picking your fights. A massive block of elite troops, while it looks good on the field, goes against all three of those premise. Don't put a round peg in a square hole.


Mon Oct 04, 2010 1:22 pm
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Dark Illusionist
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Quote:
Don't put a round peg in a square hole.


That's useless advice ;) - it's impossible, so no need to tell anyone not to do it. It's much better telling people not putting a muffin through a square hole. Because that is possible, but after doing it you'll wish you hadn't.

I have to admit, I'm always tempted by über-units (10 Cold one Knights with General, Hydra banner and cauldron blessing...) because they've got a certain something to them. At the same time, it is more rewarding to play using what phierlihy has said - combined charges and teamwork, because it's harder to do.

Instead of 50, why not use a unit of about 25-ish? that's still a very large number for an elite unit, and it can take casualties and then strike back very hard. This is what the cauldron stubbornness bonus is gold for - they get charged, lose one round, then strike back. This works very well against cavalry (though it used to be sort of pointless in 7th, 8th has brought it to its full glory). GW troops need stubborn (unless they're weakling high elves who can't take a good beating) to be able to hit back hard, as GW units are almost inevitably elites, and elites are few in number, thus unlikely to be steadfast so they have to resort to other means to survive the onslaught before presenting the enemy with a bit of an onslaught of their own.

Hatred helps, too. The first turn they'll lose most likely against a cavalry charge, but they'll hold thanks to stubborn. And thanks to step up and fighting in an extra rank, they're still hitting back just as hard. The next turn is when the real pain begins for the opponent, though :twisted:

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Mon Oct 04, 2010 1:49 pm
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Lord of the Dragon Caves
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I think 50 is a bit large for a unit of Execs for reasons previously mentioned, including the facts that it is almost impossible for a template to scatter off of a unit that large, and if you have a unit that big, it will attract a LOT of magic and shooting.

I have used Execs in 8th Ed. and have surprised opponents with how well they work. I have used units of between 21 and 28 models -- enough so that I can absorb casualties and still strike back. I think the ASF Death Hag is a bad idea since she dies easily to enemy attacks, which can't be stopped unless you kill the entire enemy unit. Support from a Cauldron is obviously a must.

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Mon Oct 04, 2010 3:02 pm
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Trainee Warrior

Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2009 2:48 pm
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I have been using a unit of 25 execs to great effect in my list. As mentioned by Mr. Anderson, it seems to be about the right size to absorb some casualties then strike back. I of course back them up with a cauldron. I find that the 5+ ward really helps in making them more survivable. I run them with the flaming banner, and they really work well for tearing up monsters as well.


Mon Oct 04, 2010 3:28 pm
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Lord of the Dragon Caves
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Agree that the 5+ ward save is often the best way to go -- even better than the +1 attack in many cases. Since the unit will be racking up kills anyway, it can be good to minimize casualties.

I like the Banner of Eternal Flame as well -- makes the unit able to handle Hydras, Treekin and Treemen, A-bombs, etc.

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Mon Oct 04, 2010 3:59 pm
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Black Guard

Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2010 10:49 pm
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I like my horde of 30 with a 5+ ward.

Sure you shouldn't go up against GW marauders with them, but for those, you can use Witch Elves and SSS Corsairs - or magic for that sake.

But you need to disable those warmachines with shades/harpies/dark riders quick :)


Mon Oct 04, 2010 5:28 pm
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I don't find war machines to be much of a problem, but I am struggling to come up with a solution for hellcannons.

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Mon Oct 04, 2010 7:23 pm
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