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Corsairs? 
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Warrior

Joined: Tue Aug 17, 2010 12:22 am
Posts: 54
i recently bought the 90 set for my Dark Elves i know how i want to assemble everything except the Corsairs.... For now i want them to be a strong unit that can fight.. So i was think 5 ranks of 4 with ccw and SSS i have heard great things about that unit. But later i want to split them into 10 man units to support other units do those smaller units still do okay with CCW or should i give them hand bows? Basically i need any ideas. thanks. :D

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Thu Oct 07, 2010 9:21 pm
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Dark Rider

Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2010 1:29 pm
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I think corsairs are made to use their 2 hand weapons.

there are not that many targets where handbows will do well enough on. but you can just make 15 with 2 hand weapons and 5 with hand bows, then you can mix the handbows ones in the back for a 20 strong unit, or put thim in front for a 10 strong hbw unit.

no normal opponent will complain about that.


Thu Oct 07, 2010 10:33 pm
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Malekith's Best Friend
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Both options can be useful.
I used Handbow corsairs once and was amazed that they weren't that bad at all. My opponents had no idea how to deal with this small annoying unit.
Especially now you can fire in 2 ranks and be steadfast Corsairs are great for a light short ranged unit which doesn't cost much.

I'd arm some of the models with handbows and some with 2 swords most people will understand.

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Fri Oct 08, 2010 12:38 am
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Malekith's Best Friend
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Model some with handbows because they look great, but use the unit with 2 hand weapons because they work better.

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Fri Oct 08, 2010 4:35 am
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Executioner
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2 hand weapons indeed are better, a small RHB unit with flame banner can be helpful too. Their best use is bunkering in a building where they can Stand and Shoot, then shoot at the siegers in your turn.

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Jacks -Shade
- WS 5 - - S 3 - - T 2 - - D 6 - - I 5 -

Equipment
Short Sword, MC Long Sword*, Dagger, RxB & RHB [20/10] MC Shade Cloak, 4 Throwing Daggers, 3x Healing Vials, 451C, [3]Dark Venom, [4]Unseen Chains, Food, Dark Steed- Spike

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Basic Stealth, Awareness, TWF, Suithenlu Khythan, Ride

Magic Item
Eye of the Jabberwock

*Magical properties possibly imbued


Fri Oct 08, 2010 1:42 pm
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Executioner
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Location: Russia. Play on balalaika together with my bear.
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Want to try 20 (7+7+6) with rhb + 1 SS lv4. It is a bunker and dagger fuel... Maybe xhw be better but hb is looking good and SnS reaction could pose some troubles for enemy. And that unit is not designed to fight anyway... so...

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Sat Oct 09, 2010 2:46 pm
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Malekith's Best Friend
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Why exactly is the Banner of Eternal Flame best used by a small unit of Corsairs with Handbows inside a building?


Sat Oct 09, 2010 3:20 pm
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Executioner
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I never said Flame banner in a building. Flame banner is useful on RHB corsairs, RHB corsairs are great garrison units, two separate things. I just said flame banner would be useful too since you can pelt regen foes with at least 20 S3 shots that you'll hit on 4's the least, then stab them with S3 papercuts. You'll have fun shooting at garrisoned units too for that matter.

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Jacks -Shade
- WS 5 - - S 3 - - T 2 - - D 6 - - I 5 -

Equipment
Short Sword, MC Long Sword*, Dagger, RxB & RHB [20/10] MC Shade Cloak, 4 Throwing Daggers, 3x Healing Vials, 451C, [3]Dark Venom, [4]Unseen Chains, Food, Dark Steed- Spike

Skills
Basic Stealth, Awareness, TWF, Suithenlu Khythan, Ride

Magic Item
Eye of the Jabberwock

*Magical properties possibly imbued


Sat Oct 09, 2010 4:10 pm
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Noble
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Corsairs are very good in 8th with ahw and their SSS banner. I always include a unit of 15-20, and they are among my top performers. They are also a good unit for a combat character on foot to join, since he gains frenzy from the banner aswell...

I find that they are best in ranks of 7.


Sat Oct 09, 2010 6:06 pm
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Noble
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Keep in mind when using magic too, as Corsairs are one of our best recipients for magical buffs. 28 attacks is a lot of mileage to give something like +1 to wound, armor piercing, or the best, striking with leadership! :D

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Sat Oct 09, 2010 7:10 pm
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Executioner
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They're the best for KB too since they've got as many attacks as WEs, but don't have poison to reduce dice for the KB wounds.

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Now that we understand each other, lets get down to business.

Jacks -Shade
- WS 5 - - S 3 - - T 2 - - D 6 - - I 5 -

Equipment
Short Sword, MC Long Sword*, Dagger, RxB & RHB [20/10] MC Shade Cloak, 4 Throwing Daggers, 3x Healing Vials, 451C, [3]Dark Venom, [4]Unseen Chains, Food, Dark Steed- Spike

Skills
Basic Stealth, Awareness, TWF, Suithenlu Khythan, Ride

Magic Item
Eye of the Jabberwock

*Magical properties possibly imbued


Sun Oct 10, 2010 1:39 am
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Corsair

Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2008 6:10 am
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Location: Melbourne Australia
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I'm going to try out 30 with rhb and SSS in horde formation. 40 shots followed by 40 more with stand and shoot then potentially another 40 attacks from combat.

I think the loss of 10 attacks from not having ahw is worth the gain you get from shooting.

It will be a huge bonus if i can get off the withering from the shadow lore and reduce the target's toughness before firing.


Mon Oct 11, 2010 8:43 am
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Corsair
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Tell us about the results.

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Mon Oct 11, 2010 11:43 am
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Noble
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Quote:
I'm going to try out 30 with rhb and SSS in horde formation. 40 shots followed by 40 more with stand and shoot then potentially another 40 attacks from combat.

I think the loss of 10 attacks from not having ahw is worth the gain you get from shooting.

It will be a huge bonus if i can get off the withering from the shadow lore and reduce the target's toughness before firing.


I really think that corsairs in units of more than 21 are a waste.

From my experience, the thing that is so good about corsairs is that they produce nearly optimal killing potential with only their front rank - much like witch elves. This enables them to keep effective after suffering casualties.

7 corsairs make 21 attacks with SSS. The same unit with 30 corsairs in horde formation would make 50 attacks. That is little more than double up on attacks for four times the cost!

Corsairs have SDCs, and will often be overlooked by the enemy when deployed in small units, because the cloaks make them less juicy targets for magic missiles and shooting. However, when deployed in units of like 30, their high individual point cost make them perfect targets for unit killer spells, templates and a well placed flank attack.

Spearmen cost 3 points less. If they die in droves noone really cares. Corsairs should be the ace in the sleeve rather than the fire magnet!


Mon Oct 11, 2010 12:02 pm
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Shade
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I have been using a unit of 40 Corsairs with RHB and the SSS lately. They have been ace! I have been playing games of 2500 points so fairly large size. They are very flexible.

Quote:
I really think that corsairs in units of more than 21 are a waste.


I disagree of course :p My opinion is: if you have more than 30 in a unit they need to have RHB's. The ability to shoot 40 shots at anything charging you is well worth the loss of additional CC attacks. You also have the luxury of choosing NOT to charge (thereby delaying an unfavorable combat) and still be able to project force by shooting. When you have a unit that large it needs to be able to make an impact ASAP and often. The RHB's give you options that don't exist with combat only troops.
I agree with you that the optimal size is around 14-21 for CC, but in order to reach the opp with that number you probably have to start with a lot more. That is where experience will tell you how many that starting number needs to be based on factors like: The rest of your army composition, the environment you play in, your regular army matchups, etc... For instance, I have found that in my army of Infantry heavy Witch Elf-centric DE that the optimized WE unit size is 28. At that number they generally hit combat with the numbers I need while still being as cheap as possible (therefore-optimal). The number of RHB corsairs I have found works best for me is between 30 and 40. In another army or environment those numbers might be wildly different. Let your play experience dictate imo.

Going large also preserves your VP in 8th. Killing 18-20 corsairs is not nearly as hard as killing 40 [obvious]. Yes, there are the unit killer spells, but they rarely "erase" the unit. You have to have other targets that are equally as juicy to make the opp make choices. A deathstar with tiny support units is an easy choice for the opp. Several large, effective threats makes it much more difficult to choose who gets the "love." Another factor to think about.

I have also had good success pairing RHB corsairs with a noble. The noble takes Whip of agony and Guiding eye. He has 5 Str attacks with AP and can allow the unit to re-roll missed shots once (huge). The guiding eye can make all the difference when you are talking about 44 shots (noble and champ) He also gives the corsairs Ld9 which is also a big benefit. It makes the unit much more independent. Having them all by their lonesome on a flank or out of the general's range is not soo terrible when they have the noble. 8th scenarios can seriously mess with your deployment strategy, so this flexability is a good thing!

The number of corsair units in your army is also a factor in what kit and how many in each unit you go for. The SSS makes corsairs awesomesauce. I only have 1 corsair unit in my army and that unit gets the SSS. If I had multiple units of corsairs they would not _all_ be the same 40 RHB that I am favoring atm. Not having the SSS in a unit of corsairs makes me change my thoughts for how they can be used. That in turn influences how many should be in the unit :> Something to think about.

Recent games where the large block of RHB corsairs have excelled:

-Against Skaven, moved up in range of a unit of 6 Rat Ogres with packmasters. I shot them and then they had to charge on their turn (frenzy) so shot them again with SS. One RO got to my lines with 2 wounds and promptly got cut down. Unit erased with no losses to the corsairs. (note- the corsairs DID get shot by the skaven player, and several models were removed, but not enough to lower my offensive production)

-Against Wood Elves playing the battle for the pass (gosh I hate that scenario) I had the unit of 40 corsairs march directly towards his archer lines for 5 turns (yes, it sucked much butt starting 45"+ away from his firebase). I had 8 + noble left on my turn 5. I shot his 3 remaining glade guard from his bunker containing his Lvl4 and killed the mage. I had to endure another round of focused missile fire the top of 6 from 2 units of 10 gg, a unit of glade riders, a unit of scouts and 2 nobles. It reduced the unit to the noble and the champ. I charge those two models into the nearest 10 man GG unit, survive the SS and beat that unit handily in combat. Win the game and date the prom queen :> The point is that a smaller unit (in this case, smaller by even one model) would have a) not accomplished the mission and, b) Given my opp a decent chunk of VP.

-Against WoC I was able to move into position to kill a Chaos Lord on foot (his mount had been killed earlier) with t5, 4+ save, +3 ward. Now the next turn I took a charge from a Hellcannon. The stand and shoot reaction only took a single wound off the thing (these things happen sometimes :> ) so I was locked in combat with it for 3 combat rounds (noble wiffed big time) The unit ultimately killed the thing though. You don't always get phenomenal rolls with your shots or SS reaction, but the point is nobody likes to take 40 shots in the teeth on a charge. I don't care what your AS or ward save is. The chance to fail a lot of saves is there.

So corsairs with RHB in large units... I'm a fan :)

-Erik

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Mon Oct 11, 2010 2:43 pm
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Trainee Warrior

Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2010 9:18 am
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Location: San Jose, CA
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Played a game Thursday night with a unit of 30 with ahw and SSS. They were my MVP for sure (mostly because by the end of turn 2, both my casters were sniped from lore of death!) I had them charge into a unit of 5 chaos knight, dealt 10 wounds, of which he rolled 5 1s...I know, really bad on his part, but was awesome! Then I reformed to prepare for the next combat...was charged by Throgg + 3 trolls. First round of combat I take out two trolls (1 only had a wound left) and I lose quite a bit as he dumps his breath + regular attacks + stomp on the unit, killing around 10-12. I pass the steadfast and continue to widdle away, eventually a rear charge by a ranked up unit of RXB helped finish the old guy off. But not until after he ate through about 20 corsairs. the 6 that were left proceeded to tear apart a chaos spawn, then the game ended.

So, even after they lost their frenzy, they still managed to tear through quite a bit, though I admit to lots of luck against the knights. I've actually been thinking of taking a unit of 50 in horde formation (was coming over here to post about it, then saw this thread). I know, it'll be 540 points. But it's a durable unit to ranged attacks, and will be putting out crazy numbers of attacks.

I guess it's just where I play, but my opponents LOVE going for my corsairs, if I fielded them in smaller amounts, it would just make them a juicier target to try and wipe out. That's one thing I like about them, they play great points denial, my unit runs 340 points, keeping them on the table is great fun!


Sat Oct 16, 2010 9:21 am
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Warrior

Joined: Tue Aug 17, 2010 12:22 am
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50?! wow that would be a sight to see..

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8th ed. Record win-tie-loss
Dark Elves: 2-0-0
Bretonnians: 0-0-0
Painted:
Dark Elves 1000pts.: 80%
Bretonnians 1000pts: 50%


Sat Oct 16, 2010 1:15 pm
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Executioner
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Hmm 10 wounds against knights from a horde of 30 corsairs isn't as impressive as I had expected. It was indeed fortunate on your part he failed 5 of his 1+ AS.

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What's mine is mine, What's yours is mine.
Now that we understand each other, lets get down to business.

Jacks -Shade
- WS 5 - - S 3 - - T 2 - - D 6 - - I 5 -

Equipment
Short Sword, MC Long Sword*, Dagger, RxB & RHB [20/10] MC Shade Cloak, 4 Throwing Daggers, 3x Healing Vials, 451C, [3]Dark Venom, [4]Unseen Chains, Food, Dark Steed- Spike

Skills
Basic Stealth, Awareness, TWF, Suithenlu Khythan, Ride

Magic Item
Eye of the Jabberwock

*Magical properties possibly imbued


Sat Oct 16, 2010 2:06 pm
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Trainee Warrior

Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2010 9:18 am
Posts: 47
Location: San Jose, CA
Post 
Meteor wrote:
Hmm 10 wounds against knights from a horde of 30 corsairs isn't as impressive as I had expected. It was indeed fortunate on your part he failed 5 of his 1+ AS.


They were not in horde, 6x5. I had 24 attacks.

Math hammer gives us:

24 attacks - 12 hits - 18 after rerolls.

He had a withering on him so had T 3 so 4s to wound - 9 wounds

I had 10, so that's above average.



Let's see, if in horde formation, it'd be more like:

40 attacks (8 wide in B2B) - 20 hits - 30 after rerolls

that's 10 wound if no withering

that's 15 wounds with the withering I had on him.

so...pretty much it's what was expected, it him rolling 5 1s out of 10 rolls however, was not.


Sun Oct 17, 2010 11:07 am
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Executioner
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Ah ok not in horde changes things.

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What's mine is mine, What's yours is mine.
Now that we understand each other, lets get down to business.

Jacks -Shade
- WS 5 - - S 3 - - T 2 - - D 6 - - I 5 -

Equipment
Short Sword, MC Long Sword*, Dagger, RxB & RHB [20/10] MC Shade Cloak, 4 Throwing Daggers, 3x Healing Vials, 451C, [3]Dark Venom, [4]Unseen Chains, Food, Dark Steed- Spike

Skills
Basic Stealth, Awareness, TWF, Suithenlu Khythan, Ride

Magic Item
Eye of the Jabberwock

*Magical properties possibly imbued


Sun Oct 17, 2010 12:18 pm
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Highborn
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maybe it's because of the size I use them but I have no success in fielding Corsairs with SSS AND CoB. Every single time I use them they pretty much die to everything. They died to artillery fire, magic, close combat and rarely do they soften their targets. I had the chance of giving them Mindrazor twice, on the first time I got it off they died in one round of combat and on the second time, the game ended without even resolving their fight.. :x I'm thinking maybe it's also becuse of my list and how they fit in it but either way they have been meh.

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Mon Oct 18, 2010 2:47 pm
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Malekith's Best Friend

Joined: Wed May 21, 2003 8:12 am
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Anyone had any luck with 10 Corsairs, Mus, Handbow?

I'm looking at a unit like that basically to play nice, but 20 shots a turn while moving forward is still something. :)


Tue Nov 16, 2010 12:31 pm
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Slave (off the Altar)

Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2010 10:18 pm
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I tried that one game, exactly how you have it listed. They picked off a few skaven then got charged and demolished in combat. I would suggest a larger unit like 7-7-6 with the SSS and you may have better luck. I actually think the SSS on a unit with handbows in that formation would work pretty well because you can do your best to move up and shoot a unit with 28 shots then wait for the to charge so you can stand and shoot. All that for losing 7 extra attacks in the front rank. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

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Tue Nov 16, 2010 4:42 pm
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Malekith's Personal Guard

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10 RHB corsairs make a decent Sorceress bunker. Most of the small, light, fast stuff that gets sent to assassinate Sorceresses get shredded by 20 RHB shots.

Just don't put it out there where a big, nasty, large unit can charge it.


Wed Nov 17, 2010 1:45 am
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Executioner
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Corsairs are the main infantry combat unit of my army. My opponents have come to fear them and put a great deal of emphasis on taking them out. I run 18-20 either 5 or 7 wide with AHW and SSS. Shadow law acts as a multiplier to their combat potential. Highlights of recent battles are twice killing 10 empire knights in 1 round with Okkam's, killing a horde of 30 debuffed bloodletters in 1 round (both I and T), killing 13 debuffed clanrats (T) plus BSB and Greyseer (braking the unit in 1 round), breaking a unit of swordmasters with a combo flank charge in 1 round and the list goes on. I have only lost the unit when it got into an unfavourable combat with chaos warriors, and had a warp lightning canon shot go off in the exact middle of the unit.

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Wed Nov 17, 2010 8:17 am
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