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Executioner

Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 1:25 am
Posts: 150
Location: Bay Area
I want to know your 8th ed. stats. It will help us all with everyones input as to what army's are tough for us as a whole.

I have only played 10 games thus far. the results are as follows

2000-3000 point games.

Vs WoC 5-1
Vs VC 3-0
Vs Beast of Chaos 1-0

Most valuble units for me have been
Cok x 10 + hero or lord
Hydras
Black Guard x14 (7x2) or x20 (7x3)

Units underperformed
Dark riders
harpies

Coments
I have been unable to play any tourny or super cheese games I can not determine how well Druchii perform vs gunlines or hordes.

Rating

Very pleased with our armies playstyle thus far.

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Fri Oct 15, 2010 10:05 pm
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Malekith's Best Friend
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Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 2:54 am
Posts: 1444
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
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I forget my exact number of games with Dark Elves so far in 8th edition, but I believe it's in the nature of 6-8 games at 2500 points. I have a number of games with Wood Elves and Dark Elves as well.

So far, Dark Elves are undefeated.

Most valuable units for me have been
Black Guard x20 with full command, different magic item combinations: In every game where they make it into combat, they utterly destroy the opponent, regardless of whether they're fighting infantry, monstrous infantry, etc.

Cauldron of Blood with BSB upgrade, no gifts of Khaine. Opponents are terrified of charging it with warmachine hunters, and don't want to shoot at it due to high Toughness and Ward Save. The buffs are unbelievably useful in 8th edition.

Cold One Chariot. Very durable for its point cost, very flexible and can fulfill a variety of roles. Great for supporting a big charge, striking out on its own to clear through support units, chasing down fleeing units, etc.

Units underperformed
Repeater crossbowmen x 20 with musician, standard. To clarify, this unit underperforms in the SHOOTING phase. I really just can't roll a 5+ to hit to save my life, in some games I even debate whether it's worth rolling to shoot with them simply because it takes so much time to roll all those dice and the end result, even against basic infantry, is 4 or 5 wounds. Every time I've sent them into close combat though, they've worked wonders. I'll probably keep them, simply because I like how confused enemies get when they see a shooting unit beat them in combat, but I'm really not an enormous fan.

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Fri Oct 15, 2010 10:46 pm
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Rending Star
Rending Star
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Joined: Tue Jun 11, 2002 6:10 am
Posts: 5030
Location: Germany
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Heh. I had the same feeling in one game against O&G. The bolts just bounced off them. Then they were right in front of my RXBs, and in that turn Withering got through... and the Orcs made *poof*. :lol:

Bye
Thanee


Fri Oct 15, 2010 10:50 pm
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Malekith's Best Friend

Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2003 11:13 pm
Posts: 1071
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So far in four games I've won, lost, and drawn Brettonians once each (each time improving since the release of 8th) and soundly crushed Wood Elves (my opponent's first game in 8th).

_________________
Lock up your children, shut all windows tight.
The Witch Elves are hunting for victims tonight.
When old hags do knock at your door, you must hide,
Your death is the gift sought by Khaine's pretty brides.


Fri Oct 15, 2010 11:02 pm
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Assassin
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Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 11:49 am
Posts: 527
Location: Wellington/Auckland New Zealand
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I have played about 9 or 10 games in 8th against VC, O&G, Empire and Wood Elves and have won all of them except for 1 draw.

Most Valuable Units:
Definately 10-14 Blackguard and Hydra, they take everything you throw at them and knock you down when they get in.

Underperforming Units:
RXB in the shooting phase just like Tethlis and Dark Riders.

I have found shades and harpies much more useful than Dark riders in this new edition.

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Sat Oct 16, 2010 12:35 am
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Warrior

Joined: Sat Jun 20, 2009 7:08 pm
Posts: 68
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So far all my games have been at 2000 points. I do not, as of yet, have a cauldron so my results may be different than most.
Usually I have a combination of the below
25 warriors with a sorceress.
20 Black guard with BSB and General.
20 RXB
15-25 Corsairs
5 Cold one Knights
Hydra
5 Dark Riders


Played Warriors of Chaos and lost badly.
Mostly due to the Hellcanon getting direct hits on both my units with sorcerers.
He ran from my RXB for some reason so I did not see how they performed.
Hydra did very poorly.

Played Vampire Counts in the watchtower scenario. He did not have a unit that could enter so I won by moving my RXB into the tower and he refused to attack for some reason. Hydra did very well. COK died quickly.

Played Ogre Kingdoms and tied.
Black guard was awesome against these guys for some reason.
RXB did very little except flee once and had ogres crash into black guard.

Played High elves in my first 8th ed game.
My opponent took no magic at all. I got Black horror with my rolls.
Swordmasters killed everything they touched until black horror killed them down to 2 guys and he conceded. they probably would have killed that last warrior unit as well but I did have at least one more turn of magic before he could charge.

Played against dwarves.
rolled very poorly so everything was bad. 2 miscasts, general killed by canonfire , Black guard trying to cross field to thunderers (not pretty)
Nothing really to be leaned by this one except some days are bad


Sat Oct 16, 2010 12:43 am
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Executioner
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Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2008 6:05 am
Posts: 190
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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See my .sig ;) DE and Daemons were vs VC, Chaos and Empire were vs Chaos. All four games were against the same opponent.

MVP overall would almost certainly be the Empire mortar. The 5" pie plate in 8th spells almost certain death to anything it hits (assuming you can avoid major scatter or a misfire).

_________________
A missive from the desk of Kylekin, Prince of Nhaeroth, Land of the Setting Sun

8th ed stats (W/L/D)
DE: 1/0/0
DoC: 2/1/0
Empire: 0/1/0
WoC: 0/1/0


Sat Oct 16, 2010 12:51 am
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Corsair
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Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2008 10:00 pm
Posts: 8688
Location: Hag Graef
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Stats.
13 battles.
- 4 initiation battles at 500 or 1k (3 DE, 1 Emp). Vs: Gob/Bret.
- 3 double battles at 2x1k (3 DE). With Gob/Emp/Bret, vs HE/Gob/Dwarf.
- 6 battles at 2k (2 DE, 4 Emp). Vs: Bret/Dwarf, rather WAACKy.

Battle results
Dark E: 8 (4W :) / 2D :| / 2L :( )
Empire: 5 (2W :) / 0D :| / 3L :( )

DE lists: Usually SS and COB; SSS Corsairs, few RXBmen, Harpies; BG, Shades, COC, 5COK; Hydra.
Empire lists: usually GrandMaster, Priest, Mage, Eng; Many knight units, 1 musket plus musket detachment; mortars, cannons; either Stank or rockets.


Now, the most important part:
Lessons learned.
7th => 8th edition
The meta-game changed a lot.
7th ed was about combining units with maneuvre, and controlling the opponent's maneuver with clever use of some mandatory rules (often frustrating for the victim).

8th ed is more about combining buffs into a unit.
Buffs come from:
- magic (unit's buff, also hexing the opponent),
- pennants,
- characters (Ld, magic objects, removing opponent's buffs along with their characters),
- supporting units (flank charges, monster stomp, COB, reducing the opponent with shooting early in the game...),
- terrain! often forgotten, but buildings change units' behaviour, rivers & forests remove steadfast, many terrain become dangerous if you charge across, not forgetting some fancy effects... There is some control over the terrain: you choose where to place half of it.
All these buffs combined can turn a rather mediocre unit into a freightening killing machine, and a medium/large elite unit to a win-me-all-my-games unit.


Army building.
As a result:
- You're incited to get 2-3 large units, which will resist longer and concentrate the buffs.
- The alternative is to get MSU, if you can concentrate the buffs on any unit of your choice. Harder but playable and more fun.
- You're incited to get some medium magic (PD are given anyway) rather than all-magic or no-magic. 8th edition magic is great fun! Powerful (win hard or loose hard).
- Characters are so important that some players go 50% characters (wrongly, because it's troops who win the game). The BSB and the General have a very high bounty on their head, often killing them = winning the game, especially with some scenarios.
- BS shooting units are much less useful, because the main units are so large and you get no VP for 1/2 units anymore.
- Template shooting/magic units are more useful, for the same reason (except against MSU).
- Light support units are less required in the main melee; they remain very useful to get rid of opponent's support units (template shooting) and to act around melee (scavenge). As they are less of them, this further reduces the importance of BS shooting.

Scenarios
The scenarios are very important. You have to prepare your army in anticipation for any of the 6 scenarios. They reinforce or decrease the relative importance of what is said just above. As a result, balanced, adaptable armies are better than rock/paper/scissor armies.

Alliances
Very fun games.
Magic is forced down because DE cannot play strong alliances (very unlikely after turn 1).
Playing a strong alliance vs a weak alliance is very unbalanced just because of magic, so I'd recommend either playing only weak alliances on both sides, or the strong alliance agrees not to go magic-heavy.


Most Valuable Units.
With decreasing importance.
- The COB, especially BSB, is able to concentrate buffs on nearly any unit. Placing it properly is vital.
- A level 4 as well, same reason.
- 20 BG, FC, AP. These guys are incredible! Often MVP (but often post-mortem).
- Hydra.
- 20 SSS AHW corsairs are excellent. Frenzy no longer an issue.
- COC behaves well, but it is slow.
- Harpies are valuable, just avoid large units.

For Empire
- The fighty general is great.
- Stank is great.
- Cannons are still nice, mortars as well albeit weak.
- A large unit of knights is great.


Underperforming Units.
- RXBmen. Often nobody to shoot at. Often shooting has little effect.
- Level 4, too. Magic is fancy! If she is the general, a miscast can be enough to make you loose the game.

For Empire:
- Too many warmachines with engineers are not good, depending on the scenario and the availability of opponent's scouts.
- BS "move or shoot" shooters are crappy.



Leftover Units.
(EDITed paragraph)
DR. I don't run anymore DR, who were my favourite unit in 7th ed. Reason: lost most of their usefulness and provide too easy VPs.

RHB corsairs, in small unit of 10. :cry: No more small annoying units to get rid of.

RBTs. Just not the pts available. I will run them again one day.

Characters on horse (sorc, BSB). Due to loss of Look Out, Sir.

Assassins. Due to retaliation from rear models stepping in.

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Winds never stop blowing, Oceans are borderless. Get a ship and a crew, so the World will be ours! Today the World, tomorrow Nagg! {--|oBrotherhood of the Coast!o|--}


Last edited by Calisson on Mon Oct 18, 2010 8:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.



Sat Oct 16, 2010 8:08 am
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Noble
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Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2010 10:02 am
Posts: 409
Location: Denmark
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Odd that RxBs seem to perform badly for everone! I tried them last game - 30 strong with a sorceress with the guiding eye. They targetted a unit of sauri at long distance and rerolled to hit with my 60 shots hitting on 5s. I hit with around 30 shots, but rolling to wound I only got 5!! He prooceded to pass two armour saves. Total: 3 kills from 60 shots with rerolls...

Here is my list:


Most Valuable Units


Supreme Sorceress (lvl4, Death Magic, PoK, Dragon Egg, Darkstar Cloak, Dark Pegasus)
This girl is insane. She is my only mage and she never dies. Her dragon egg usually kills more than the rest of my shooting manages in an entire game!

Cold one Knights (2x6 w mus) + Cauldron
My winning combination. They are inseperable! If I take one, I will also take the other.

Master BSB (Full Armour, Dark Pegasus, PoK, Soulrender)
Outperforms the cauldron by a bunch and costs 10 points less. Together with the hydra, he is possibly the most "broken" thing in the DE army list. The only reason I am sometimes still using the cauldron is that I dont really have a pegasus master model (I use my sorceress sometimes), and that I love my cold one knights who need the cauldron!

Corsairs (16-20 w ahw, SSS and mus)
If you are clever with your corsairs they can really put a whopping on anything - no matter if there is 20 or 5 of them left!


Underperforming Units


Spearmen
They do nothing for me. Even with banner of murder and debuffs on the enemy they always do horribly! They get ONE MORE CHANCE today - and thats it!

RxBs

Tried them because spearmen did next to nothing. And well... RxBs also do next to nothing and are more expensive! What do you know...?






Sat Oct 16, 2010 8:55 am
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Highborn
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Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2010 3:03 am
Posts: 784
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Empire - 1
High Elves -3
Wood Elves -2
Dwarves - 1
Skaven -1
Warriors of Chaos -1
Brettonia- 1

W/D/L
10/0/0

Most Valuable Unit
My 11 Strong Cold One Knights with Dreadlord - Killed every unit and character thrown at them :twisted: Dreadlord on CO, AoD,PoK, TOTS. simple, effective and no nonsense killing machine. Combined with SoHG means hatred every round then either +1 attack or KB from COB.


one of the 20 man unit of Crossbowmen
Shades and Harpies
Sorceress with Withering or Enfeeblement spell
Cauldron of Blood

Clutch Units
Hydra and Blackguard - they get to kill or hold their target and earn their points back but my COK unit really manages to steal the show every time. There are instances where my 14 strong Black Guard could have been Corsairs with SSS or Witchelves and they would have contributed to the game as much as the Blackguard so there.
Spearmen - They do their job but never really got to use them as well as most people like pulling of Mindrazors or KB combo's. They hold and block whatever I ask them to so I guess I can't complain.

Chaos are tougher this edition than ever. So many high powered attacks back coupled with some nasty magic debuff combos. High Elves can either be too soft or too cheesy all depending on how much magic he takes. Lore of shadows on a level 4 with the book is downright painful.

I haven't fought one in this edition so far but I'm dreadful of Lizardmen and intimidated by a strong Warriors of Chaos, High Elves and Skaven warmachines that doesn't misfire...

_________________
8th Edition

W/D/L
86/1/5

New AB
W/D/L
32/1/0

9th Age
W/D/L

Vae Victis
Character kill count -182

"To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill."

Armies
Dark Elves
Dark Eldar
Death Korps of Kreig


Sat Oct 16, 2010 1:40 pm
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Cold One Knight
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Joined: Mon Mar 08, 2010 9:01 pm
Posts: 222
Location: England / Har Ganeth.
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Roughly 18 games, with roughly 60% win/loss

Most common opponents

High Elves, Warriors of Chaos

Underperforming units units

none that come to mind, most everything seems to perform solidly, from Dark Riders to Assassins.

Most Valuable Units

6 Cold one Knights Full Command, BoHG Whip of Agony.
With cauldron and/or magic support there seems to be no limit as to what they can achieve.

Level 4 Sorceress, Sacrificial Dagger, Lore of Metal.
Absolute gem, works like a charm every time, a most reliable damage amplifier for both my combat and shooting units and can still drop craters in the opposing lines.

Most notably when a double one was rolled for winds of magic, cast power of darkness (gained only one dice), used 2dice +dagger for searing doom, killing 5/6 Chaos Knights of Tzeen
Then placed Plague of Rust on Chosen, never has three dice been more deadly.


Sat Oct 16, 2010 9:20 pm
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Dark Rider
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Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2010 10:29 pm
Posts: 147
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Hi, well, let's see:

Against dwarves: 5 loses, 3 wins (in my defence i can say most of his wins were quite marginal, while all 3 of mine were rather spectacular).

Against WoC: 6 wins, 3 loses

Against Lizardmen: 2 wins, 2 loses

Against Empire: 2 wins, 1 battle lost

Against beastmen: 4 wins

Against O&H: 1 battle won and one lost

Against Bretonnia: one battle won

Against VC: one battle won (as usual, he lost his general on turn two, and gave up. Can VCs ever win a single game? doubt it...)

Against high Elves: two loses, one battle won (but i'll soon make up for this! :) )

Against Skaven: 3 wins, one battle lost (quite proud of it, the new Skaven are hideous!)


Most battles were between 3k and 5k points.
The hydras and COK worked fine, as well as large blocks of humble spearmen and shielded crossbowmen. Witch elves are usually sub par, except against high elves and skaven, where they seem to be rather at home. As far as characters go dredlords usually fared quite good, casters are so-so and, compared to my 7th ed games, assassins were one hit (not so much) wonders, i removed them completely and also left the chapinons on the semi-elite infantry (BG, exec, Welves) home, as they're usually no longer worth their points (unless you want them to carry items) and last for just one combat round. Harpies can still be annoiyng 4 your opponent, while heroes on dark pegasuses actually got (marginally) better. Still undecided about bolt throwers: they are rather expensive and frail, but sometimes concentrated fire from just a few can rob a main enemy infantry unit most of its rank bonus (and ranks per se). I have not yet figured out a decent way to keep them safe, however.


Sun Oct 17, 2010 9:17 am
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Noble
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Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 7:22 am
Posts: 459
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Games played roughly 2 dozen.
Armies played against: dwarves, skaven, warriors, lizzardmen, VC, high elves.
Wins
dwarves, skaven, warriors, lizzardmen, vc.

Losses
skaven, warriors, vc, high elves.

Worst units.
Black guard.

Reason.
Body count too low, play style no longer works for 8th.

Best unit.
Tie between, hydra and cold one chariot.

Reason.
Hyrdas are just brutal and under valued. Chariots do many things and do them well and are as well under valued.

Magic.
Starting lore Death. Current lore fire.

Reason.
Death is good but needs a level 4 to really pull it off as well as other tricks like earthing stone and power scroll to get that killer purple sun off. Fire is good lore for running level 2's instead of lord level casters. Currently I am running 2 level 2's and 2 dreadlords, so magic that is helper based and able to take out hell pits is what I need. Currently thinking about lore of metal instead again, still unsure though.

Units used in 8th.
Black guard, dark riders, hydras, cold one chariots, characters on Pegasus, mages on foot, cold one knights, assassins, shades and cauldron of blood.

Units not used in 8th.
harpies, witch elves, executioners, spear men.

Final cut of units used in 8th.
repeater cross bow troops, hydras, cold one chariots, Pegasus mounted characters, mages on foot and maybe cauldron again.

_________________
Flyers for the win in 8th.

DEATH FROM ABOVE DRUCIH AIR CAV!!!!

The Machine will grind you down.

The League of Extraordinary Druchii


Sun Oct 17, 2010 8:34 pm
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Corsair

Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2008 6:10 am
Posts: 83
Location: Melbourne Australia
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Geist wrote:
Games played roughly 2 dozen.
Armies played against: dwarves, skaven, warriors, lizzardmen, VC, high elves.
Wins
dwarves, skaven, warriors, lizzardmen, vc.

Losses
skaven, warriors, vc, high elves.

Worst units.
Black guard.

Reason.
Body count too low, play style no longer works for 8th.

Best unit.
Tie between, hydra and cold one chariot.

Reason.
Hyrdas are just brutal and under valued. Chariots do many things and do them well and are as well under valued.

Magic.
Starting lore Death. Current lore fire.

Reason.
Death is good but needs a level 4 to really pull it off as well as other tricks like earthing stone and power scroll to get that killer purple sun off. Fire is good lore for running level 2's instead of lord level casters. Currently I am running 2 level 2's and 2 dreadlords, so magic that is helper based and able to take out hell pits is what I need. Currently thinking about lore of metal instead again, still unsure though.

Units used in 8th.
Black guard, dark riders, hydras, cold one chariots, characters on Pegasus, mages on foot, cold one knights, assassins, shades and cauldron of blood.

Units not used in 8th.
harpies, witch elves, executioners, spear men.

Final cut of units used in 8th.
repeater cross bow troops, hydras, cold one chariots, Pegasus mounted characters, mages on foot and maybe cauldron again.


How are you finding using 2 dreadlords and what items have you given them?


Mon Oct 18, 2010 12:23 am
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Noble
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Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 7:22 am
Posts: 459
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I am running the two lords thus.
lord dark peg, dragon bane helm, ogre blade, pendant of kaeleth, other trickster shard and full mundane kit sans repeater cross bow.

lord dark peg, shield of ghrond, whip of agony, talisman of preservation and full mundane kit sans repeater cross bow.

These lords work very well for me. Not only do they provide high threat zones they also can hold entire units by themselves for many rounds of combat. In my last game with them they by themselves held an entire flank. I did toy with the enchanted shield idea for a 1+ save on the whip lord, but taking away 1 pip from strength of attacks actually is rather good. I also toyed with the entire armour of servitude and dragon bane gem. But again thats only a 2+ save so not good enough. I might look at the entire enchanted shield idea and see if there is anything better, but currently I am liking this build.

_________________
Flyers for the win in 8th.

DEATH FROM ABOVE DRUCIH AIR CAV!!!!

The Machine will grind you down.

The League of Extraordinary Druchii


Mon Oct 18, 2010 2:26 am
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Warrior
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Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2008 8:54 pm
Posts: 68
Location: Essen, Germany
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Played games sind 8th: 9

Highs:

- Dreadlord with AoD, PoK, CoC, Great Weapon. But him in Range of the BSB in any unit and he will kill anything or hold up anything. He is the crown of awesomeness. I always take him above anything else in my DE armylists.

- CoB. Nothing to say about that. Ever seen a 41 spearman attacks with KB smashing assaulting chaos knights? Priceless. BSB upgrade a must. Tough to crack, upgrades are great.

- Hydras. Still the same nastiness as before. Always take double the fun at below 3k! 8)



Good ones:

- Spearman. Take them at 40-50 and they will hold their ground. Great unit if deployed with undying Dreadlord with Crown and BSB+ cauldron in range. No enemy wants them in combat then. Standalone they do fine, either hold up strong enemies or punch weak ones.

- Xbows. They do good damage against light-medium units, can hold most times on their own and can support later in the battle. I take 20 with shields, muso, banner.

- 40 cosairs with RHB, SSS and Command. They just put out a lot of damage, even more with dreadlord / CoB, but they are rather expensive. They do a very good job, but they do best at 3k where you can spend those much points on a unit without strapping your forces to save the points.


Medium:

- BG. Expensive, I get steadfest for much less points on other units, they can only be taken about 20, not that hard as they were once due to stepup rule. Good unit if they reach combat, but they usually go down the drain very fast.

- WE. If you have a cauldron they do fine. Somehow, they are fragile and expensive. I´d rather take RHB SSS cosairs any day. But if you like them, they´ll do okay.



Bad:

Anything else.
- CoK. Very expensive, can´t mount buildings, fragile, too much efford to make them work. You are better of with 2 cheaper units of the above, and those will do better then them.

- CoC. No staying power, even on the charge not much damage, once they are in combat the enemy will gain steadfest and defeat them via SCR. Waste of points.

- Harpies. Fast dying points for the enemy. A noble on pegasus beats them any day in warmachine hunting and any other role they might fulfill.

- DR. Expensive and weak. Nothing more to say.

- RBT. 2 wounds, not much damage, expensive for what they do. Can be done with XBows much better.


No rating:
Shades, not used jet.
Assassins

Questionable:
- Mages. Lvl 4. Everytime I fielded a Lvl 4 (Dagger, Seal) she burned herself or drained all the power dices or lost her magic ability or the winds of magic rolled bad. If I throw 2-3 dices per spell then she broke her concentration by not passing the spells casting level. I´ll still playtest her, but for me a usual Lvl 2 does better in under 2,5k and less games. If I need a spell with my Lvl2 (Seal, Tome) I just throw all the dices I got. If I burn her it doesn´t really matter as she costs half the price. If not, I do it over and over again and the enemy can´t really handle her due to being limited on 6 dices to dispel while i can take ALL PD I have..
- Noble on Pegasus with Mundane Armor, Lance, Cloak of Hag Graef, Ring of Hotek.. Good for warmachine hunting, nice to throw between enemies lines. Still not proven that much as I most times took the Lvl4 and left him at home. Maybe at 3k a Lvl2 and him will do great. The bigger the army, the less important becomes magic, due to still being limited on 12PD and winds of magic. On 2 or 2,5k I rather take more troops then him.


Mon Oct 18, 2010 11:14 am
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Dark Illusionist
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Location: Dating a Witch elf...
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I very much disagree with almost all of the ones you listed as "bad", Norngahl. 'cept RBT, they are too situational.

CoK - awesome, especially with cauldron buffs. They work well taking out elites and their I6 comes in very handy, ensuring they get the kills in before something strikes back. Of course on their own you need a huge-ish unit, but as a support unit they are fantastic.

CoC - same again. 'course if you charge them headlong into anything without support, what do you expect... but if you use spearmen as steadfast counter and then charge in the chariots to tip the balance, they are quite nice, and they have a lot of staying power against most things.

Harpies - a bit meh, but they are decent as screening unit to deter shooting or give an expensive unit some modbile cover for one turn. They are cheap enough not to be missed when dead. And a noble on peggy certainly does not beat them any day in that role.

DR - one unit of 10, no shooting. They also work decently taking out light units/hunting war machines (you can't take that many nobles on peggy, after all - and 10 of them pack quite a punch when charging, have them in the right spot at the right time and you can break up an enemy battle line).

A level 4 is very valuable for dispelling. She can't lose concentration when using 3 dice for a spell (and that is the minimum you want to throw at stuff, most of the time, except when casting power of darkness at the end of the magic phase). If she blows up, try taking less PD. It helps.

I've also found RxBmen largely mediocre as a shooting unit. Maybe they'll do better against horde enemies and in combat, but so far I'm not impressed. Melee is so much more fun.

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Mon Oct 18, 2010 12:03 pm
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Executioner
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Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2010 10:57 am
Posts: 1956
Location: Hell
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2000 - 3000pts [NOTE: Results so far doesn't include usage of horde units, only big units are Spearmen in 30-40 models/unit which, 98% of the time is in 5x6-8 save against cavalry in my following turn with KB blessing given.

Least Struggle Against

WoC - 11 wins: 2 loss (heck of a lot)
[KB BSB & General assassinations, spells bypassing armour e.g. Soul Steal & Black Horror]

DoC - 4 wins: 2 loss (pretty much)
[WS1 S2 T2 Horde of Bloodcrushers] [WS1 S1 T1 I2 Horde of Daemonettes]
[WS1 S3 Horde of Bloodletters]

Most Struggle Against

HE - 0 Wins: 3 Loss (exact)
[Teclis w/ Life & 40 Phoenixguard, Book of Hoeth w/ Dwellers/Death spells]

WE - 1 Win: 2 Draw: 2 Loss (exact)
[Not enough units to deal with Dragon, Treeman & 4 sets of 10 GG @ 2k pts]

Lizards - 0 Wins: 2 Loss (exact)
[2x Steggs and Lv4 Slann w/ full upgrades @ 2k pts....zzzz]

Average Results Against

Ratio (Can't exactly remember wins/draws/loss)
Empire - 1:1
Ogres - 5:3
O&G - 1:1
Skaven - 1:1

Most Valuable Unit(s)

CoB - KB blessings
Lv4 Dark Magic - Word of Pain, SS and Black Horror
Lv2/3 Shadow Magic - Withering main one, everything is second place
12 WE - Poison
5 Harpies - baiting blockage
6 RxB DRs - redirect baiting combo with Harpies

Underperformed Unit(s)

Chariot - Fail impact hits, fail chariot
20 RxB - Major bluff unit

Average Performance Unit(s)

Executioners - No Glittering Scale/Word of Pain, no glory
Frenzied AHW Corsairs - needs an external source to spice them up
Hydra - GW is a no no. Flame attacks is a no no. Cannons is a no no. Soloing Hordes is a no no.

Lesson(s) Learned

MAGIC IS AWSOME!
It is indeed a solution to everything for me. The basis of my lists revolves around magic to make S3 papercuts effective and deadly. Should magic fail me for a phase, the units are designed to hold up to receive the magic support in their next friendly magic phase. After all, even magic can only participate in one fight at a time to be most effective, so other fights/areas need to be held up or stalled till it's their turn to receive blessings/magic support.

I've been floating along without a true means to stop enemy magic defenses, and it still doesn't ruin my day, even when a roll of <7 on winds of magic plagues me from turn 1 to 6. The dice can be cruel game after game on some days, there's not much that can be done about that. Anything above a cruel dice day, you can easily turn an average magic phase into a deadly weapon with our sheer amount of powerful arcane items, abilities (PoD, no PD usage limit) and lores.

If a method to disable enemy magic defenses (commonly a Lv4 wizard) is implemented and works, your relatively free reign in the magic phase will spell doom to your opponent.

Be patient with my charges.
I've found that just because a charge is possible, doesn't mean it's feasible. I also find that during turn 3 onwards is when it's about right to charge, and never charge alone. It's rare to hear a DE unit capable of soloing an enemy, except maybe for BGs. In my case anyway.

Strength in Numbers (of S3 papercuts!)
I noticed that no matter what you're facing, if you throw enough S3 attacks at them, they'll succumb to them. No matter if you need 5s or 6s to wound, it'll come. Which is also why multiple charges is best because it raises the number of S3 papercuts you can deliver to your target to further support this point. It might be blindingly obvious, but still something important to notice and refresh over. Our BG, Execs and CoKs don't need to follow this rule, and as such, can practically go solo enemy units unsupported, but they struggle to break enemies because of their lack in actual body count to deny steadfast.

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What's mine is mine, What's yours is mine.
Now that we understand each other, lets get down to business.

Jacks -Shade
- WS 5 - - S 3 - - T 2 - - D 6 - - I 5 -

Equipment
Short Sword, MC Long Sword*, Dagger, RxB & RHB [20/10] MC Shade Cloak, 4 Throwing Daggers, 3x Healing Vials, 451C, [3]Dark Venom, [4]Unseen Chains, Food, Dark Steed- Spike

Skills
Basic Stealth, Awareness, TWF, Suithenlu Khythan, Ride

Magic Item
Eye of the Jabberwock

*Magical properties possibly imbued


Mon Oct 18, 2010 12:10 pm
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Executioner

Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 1:25 am
Posts: 150
Location: Bay Area
Post 
This is great. What i gather so far is the majority have experienced the following;

Best Units
-Hydra
-CoK
-CoB

close behind are
-BG units
-CoC
-Lv 4

Worst units
-RxB
-Bolt thrower

Keep them coming !!

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Only Khaine can judge me!


Mon Oct 18, 2010 6:28 pm
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Malekith's Best Friend
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Posts: 1444
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
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Here are two units that aren't really doing anything utterly incredible, but are performing very consistently and fulfilling their role every game:

Spearmen: Not very glamorous and rarely steal the show, because they're dying in droves or steamrolling over worthless crap while my Black Guard or Dragon steal all the glory. Still, they're incredibly good at losing 80% of their casualties and not running, and tying up the biggest baddest nastiest unit my enemy has while yielding very few victory points while I butcher the rest of the army.

Manbane/Rending Star Assassin: I think this guy makes my Shades worth taking. He's a true terror of the backline, and makes Shades frighteningly formidable against other skirmishers, fast cavalry, chariots, lone monsters, and a lot of the units than opponents count on to patrol their backfields. His shooting capability, plus stand-and-shoot, plus ASF Manbane, makes him quite hard to deal with and brilliant at drawing fire. Even if most of his Shades die horribly, he alone can survive and hack his way through warmachines or suicide into enemy mages with ease.

With the dropoff in popularity and versatility of Harpies and Dark Riders, I think this guy + a Shade unit really adds something fearsome. His only downside is that I seem to fail the Shades' Leadership 8 panic tests all too often :(

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Mon Oct 18, 2010 10:01 pm
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Generalissimo
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Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 3:09 pm
Posts: 3711
Location: Baltimore
Post 
Quote:
Best Units
-Hydra
-CoK
-CoB

close behind are
-BG units
-CoC
-Lv 4

Worst units
-RxB
-Bolt thrower



Not at all.

Weaknesses of the "best units", include:

Hydras: Regeneration is now much worse and there is a massive increase in the number of units/monsters/characters that have flaming ranged, magic and close combat attacks.

CoK: They have great impact on the charge, but then fizzle out. Against big steadfast units they can really struggle.

CoB: A couple of hundred points for a model that has almost zero combat value is a lot of points.

Strengths of the "worst units"

RxBs give out a withering hail of fire: awesome for thinning out those horde units, getting rid of pernicious flanking and skirmishing units and for denting those nasty flying monsters. The fact that they can now shoot (and fight) in two ranks and that warriors can no longer use hand weapons and shield when fighting makes them more potent than ever before.

Reapers act as our ONLY artillery pieces and have the versatility to both take on big, nasty monsters (S6 bolts versus a T5 Wyvern or Giant is very nice...) OR trim through your enemy's horde units - depending on who you are playing against. Range 48" helps too. Costing less than 110 points each, they won't break the bank and can put out a lot of fire for relatively little cost.


Now don't get me wrong, I'm playing Devil's advocate a bit here: I rarely leave camp without a CoB and a unit of CoKs, while RxBs and Reapers definitely have their limitations, BUT simply saying that 'these units are good and these units are bad' means you are missing out. I actually don't think there are any underperformers in the DE army book: every unit has a specific role and can make a real impact on the battle field: if played right.

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Mon Oct 18, 2010 10:15 pm
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Malekith's Best Friend
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Red... wrote:
Now don't get me wrong, I'm playing Devil's advocate a bit here: I rarely leave camp without a CoB and a unit of CoKs, while RxBs and Reapers definitely have their limitations, BUT simply saying that 'these units are good and these units are bad' means you are missing out. I actually don't think there are any underperformers in the DE army book: every unit has a specific role and can make a real impact on the battle field: if played right.


Good points, good perspective, and I agree. I believe there are units that create excellent options and are better suited for 8th edition than other choices, but even our worst choices are still very good.

That being said, I believe that list was just put forth as a summary of the trends we have seen so far, rather than a simple list of "this is awesome, and this is terrible."

I mean really, I am very displeased with the shooting role of my crossbowmen, because I find they're so inaccurate and I tend to roll so poorly that they can't thin much of anything!

As for bolt throwers, I'm not really on board with the idea that they're "too vulnerable". I agree that they're fragile, but I'm not that worried about them getting shot to pieces since it's drawing missile fire away from much, much more valuable units in my army.

My problem with RBTs is that they simply aren't doing enough damage compared to other units I could be getting for equal points, and force me to protect my backline in a list that's otherwise very aggressive and assault-oriented. With the points I spend on two bolt throwers, I could be getting a lot of infantry instead.

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Mon Oct 18, 2010 10:29 pm
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Posts: 784
Post 
I now retract my statement, out of 6 times I've used 18-24 Corsairs with SSS, they have failed EVERY single time. Can't seem to use these buggers to save my life. i can't help but think how things would have been better had they been an Spearmen or Blackguard of the same pointage. will attempt to use them one last time before I throw them back into my display case and bring back my Blackguard. :x

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8th Edition

W/D/L
86/1/5

New AB
W/D/L
32/1/0

9th Age
W/D/L

Vae Victis
Character kill count -182

"To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill."

Armies
Dark Elves
Dark Eldar
Death Korps of Kreig


Tue Oct 19, 2010 5:48 am
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Executioner

Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 1:25 am
Posts: 150
Location: Bay Area
Post 
This....

Quote:
That being said, I believe that list was just put forth as a summary of the trends we have seen so far, rather than a simple list of "this is awesome, and this is terrible."

Thank you Tethlis

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Tue Oct 19, 2010 6:51 am
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Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 3:09 pm
Posts: 3711
Location: Baltimore
Post 
Fair enough: I nonetheless think that it's important to stop for a moment of perpective and defend those units before we get some impetus going on over praising some units and condemning others...

Also, I'll go on record as saying that for me RxBs have done very nicely so far in 8th ed: they protected my flanks against skirmishers, provided a nice cosy nest for my Supreme Sorceress and have been generally reliable as support units from afar. I tend to run them in small missile lines rather than infantry blocks...

I had good success with RBTs too: they have been very helpful for establishing my line and laying down some good, solid long range fire.

Both units have performed decently in part because my strategy tends to be very much to get in my opponents face and stay there. That means he's usually more focused on reacting to my rapidly advancing fighting infantry and cavalry and leaves my support troops pretty much alone. That means that they don't usually become at risk - so I don't risk losing them and any points they make is a bonus :)

Similarly, I'll go on record as saying that my Hydras have fared poorly. I used 2 in a 3k game versus high elves (I knew he would bring a cheesy army - which he did - so didn't feel too bad bringing 2 hydras...). Both were toast by turn 2: initiative striking order, combined with the increase of fire attacks and the decrease in value of regeneration makes them much more fragile than before. Okay, they got more potent in combat in some ways: but then their potency has never been an issue, their survivability has. Now they don't survive so well...

Cold One Knights: I saw 7 out of a 12 man unit killed by a charging unit of flagellants in my 1st game in 8th and many more killed by focused missile fire in games since. I still love them, but again, they are more fragile than ever before...


So, perhaps my experiences can now help to rectify the weight of opinion so far :)

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Tue Oct 19, 2010 7:37 am
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