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D.R.A.I.C.H. - Building the Uber list, Step 1: Magic 
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Trainee Warrior

Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2004 8:25 pm
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Hey guys, haven't posted in quite a long time. Just a brief bit of background to help understand my goal with this article - I am a big tournament player. I played DE through all of 6th when they were terrible, using a point denial cav list. This can be found in the 6th edition "best of" lists, if that thread is still around. I skipped out on DE for most of 7th, till the new book came out. At that point a friend and I worked hard to narrow down what we felt was the best "take all comers" build for tournament play. I won't rehash it hear, since that edition is now dead, but we hit on a solid list. We both placed top 10 at GT's with it, and had several top 3 or wins at smaller tournaments, using a variety of formats from no-comp to ETC rules.

All that stated, I have yet to hit on "the" build for 8th edition. That "take all comers" tournament style build, designed to compete against every army. So my goal here is to narrow it down one step at time, this being the fist, my view on what magic is necessary and how to use it.

So lets begin!

Part 1: Basic Assumptions

1. Druchii need magic to compete. I'm not saying you can't build an effective no-magic or little magic army, but to win on a large scale I feel you need a strong magic offense and defense.
2. Generating power dice is the best magic offense. This forces your opponent to choose what to dispel and allows you to cast all or most of the spells in your arsenal.
3. Magic defense is hard to come by for the Druchii. You WILL have to eat some spells, but this can be mitigated to an extent with list design, and in fact is complimentary to the magic offense.
4. The caster(s) need to be protected. I will discuss this later, but I have yet to hit on the "ideal" protection, though I am close. Hope we can discuss and work it out!

Part 2: How many casters or maximizing offense and defense

1. I like to field a Dreadlord for his LD and hitting power and survivability with Pendant/point denial. Therefore my Lord choices for casting are limited to a single Level 4, which I believe to be the best option regardless.
1a. A level 4 provides us with 4 spells, and with the new ability to pick your spells when rolling doubles, you will get what you want 90% of the time. See other articles posted on this site for the math.
1b. This provides both an offensive role, with +4 to cast and 4 spells, and a defensive role, with +4 to dispel. So one can conclude that a level 4 both maximizes offensive casting and defensive dispelling. Compare to a level 2 or multiple level 2 casters and the +4 is always more useful.
1c. A level 4 will maximize the amount of dice you can generate per phase, forcing your opponent into a losing magic phase. I will address this later, but this can be accomplished through proper dice management, PoD, Dagger/Black Staff/Darkstar Cloak, etc.


Therefore, Rule #1: A Level 4 caster is necessity for both magical offense and defense.

2. A level 2 caster compliments our magical offense, and provides a fallback option for defense should the level 4 fail to dispel.
2a. Again, I will address dice generation soon, but adding a level 2 that generates dice as well can quickly boost your PD pool to levels that are unmanageable for your opponent.
2b. With a properly chosen lore/spells the level 2 can be a double threat to the opponent by complimenting the spells cast by the level 4.
2c. Should the level 4 fail to dispel the +2 is a fallback option.


Therefore, Rule #2: A level 2 caster compliments our level 4 caster, cascading the results of the magic phase, and provides a fallback dispel option.

3. How to generate dice to maximize the phase

1. There are a variety of options to increase to dice on a level 4, however I feel that Sacrificial Dagger is the best option. While Black Staff can generate up to 4 dice, it also requires 2 dice to reliably cast, and may not pay off, and is also easy to dispel since the +4 does not apply. Sacrificial Dagger can be used on every spell, giving us a maximum of +5 PD per phase! You will rarely reach that level, but the option is there, and your opponent knows it. Combine with PoD and you have the potential to add an additional 9 PD per phase, just on the level 4!!
2. The level 2 needs the proper spells to compliment the level 4, therefore Tome of Furion is a must. This means the only way for the level 2 to generate dice is through PoD, which is acceptable, and actually is beneficial to the level 4's casting.

Therefore, Rule #3: Sac Dagger is a must on the level 4, and Tome of Furion on the level 2.

3. What is your ideal PD roll? Low. The answer is LOW. I have found that the ideal roll for PD is a '4', ideally a 2-2 on the dice. This gives you a seemingly paltry 4 dice, but your opponent only has 2 to dispel. Obviously one must scale up these tactics as power pool is random, but the important point to take away is - don't get discouraged by low rolls, you WANT low rolls.
4. To begin, cast PoD with your level 4 with one dice. If this is a 5-6 do not bother boosting as your opponent must throw 2 dice to reliably dispel, even with a level 4. If you roll a 1-4 use sac dagger to generate another dice. This will almost certainly boost you into the 5-6 range on the dice, maybe more. Now your opponent must choose, throw his 2 DD at PoD, or let it go and risk more casting. I have found most opponents let it go. So now you get at least 2 PD back, average of 3. Now we are at 5-7 PD.
5. Next throw 2 PD at the level 2's PoD. It will only fail on double 1's, and with an average roll casts on a '7'. This means a 9 total, again forcing the opponent to throw 2 DD to reliably stop it, which they will often choose not to do. So again, you get at least those 2 dice back, an average of 3. Now our power pool is at an average 7 dice!! And the opponent still only has 2 dispel dice!!
6. At this point cast away. Consider that even 7 dice, the level 2 can cast many low casting spells on 2-3 dice, leaving 4-5 for the level 4. Prioritize as you see fit. Also consider that the level 4 still has dagger, so you can throw one less dice then is needed and if the spell fails boost it with dagger, or simply use dagger to boost spells so high the opponent can't dispel with only 2 dice.

Therefore, Rule #4: Boost your dice up using this method and you will outclass your opponents dispel ability nearly every time.

4. Choosing your lores

1. Druchii are a "soft" army, soft as in we have T3 and low armor and therefore die easily. I have found that using magical damage to hurt the opponent is not very effective in 8th edition. We already excel at eliminating support units and magic rarely does enough kills to hurt the large blocks. No, I have found that disrupting the opponent's plan and bringing them down to our level is by far the best way to win the day.
2. This in mind, Shadow and Dark are our two best lores. Both lores have debuff spells that can be cast into combat which can cause a major disruption to the enemies plan, as well as large template spells that can kill whole units/models at a clip. Combining these two lores is the key to magical success.
3. I have been using Shadow on the level 4 and Dark on the level 2, however based on another D.R.A.I.C.H. article I am considering swapping. 3 Shadow spells is enough to get what you want, and with the low casting values of Dark on the level 4, combined with dagger and the dice generation described above, one should be able to cast all 4 spells in your arsenal.

Therefore, Rule #5: Shadow and Dark are your friends!

5. Combing the Lores

1. Shadow is almost self explanatory, but some tips anyway.
1a. Miasma is the best spell in the lore. Easy to cast and can have a variety of effects from lowering initiative, huge against HE's as it stops re-rolls, to lowering WS so units can hit on 3's and/or be hit on 5's, to lowering BS to effectively stop a unit from shooting at you.
1b. Mindrazor is the most useful spell on the lore for obvious reasons. If you have a choice, always take Mindrazor.
1c. Miasma a units initiative and Pit of Shades them for an in-lore combination that can devastate whole units, or take down large monsters easier (most already have low I, but even a I2 lowered to a I1 can be game winning).

2. Dark magic compliments shadow very well. Chillwind is of course great for stopping a unit from shooting, combined with Miasma its a nice threat while we are slogging across the board, effectively stopping 2 units from shooting is nice.
2a. Word of Pain is better the miasma in many ways because it is not random - you go right to WS1 and BS1, do not pass go do not collect $200. This again makes it easier to hit, harder to get hit, and can basically stop a unit from shooting at you because its so hard to hit.
2b. My favorite combo, use Enfeebling to drop a units strength, then hit them with Black Horror!! BH does not scatter like Pit does so you can cover a whole unit and wipe it out. Devastating against S3-4 units, which most are.
2c. My second favorite combo, Use Withering then hit a unit with Steal Soul!! S2 is not so bad when you are only T2! And since this can be cast into combat you can almost wipe a unit out, perhaps bailing out a unit in trouble.


Therefore, Rule #6: Shadow and Dark compliment very well, use it right!

6. Protection

1. Here is where I am lacking as I have not yet hit on the best options. Usually placing the Level 4 into a large spearman unit is enough to protect her form shooting and magic. I have toyed with ward saves but find that she so rarely takes direct damage that it doesn't pay off. I usually take Dagger, Seal of Ghrond, and Ironcurse Icon. This keeps here relatively cheap, helps with magic defense, which we are lacking in, and helps her unit as well.
1a. The downside of course is that the spearmen become a bunker and don't fight very often. Haven't figured a way around this yet, and I do not think there is one.
2. I have yet to hit on where to place the level 2. I like to giver her lifetaker and place her in a 20 strong xbow unit, but this often leaves her out of range for her power spells until late game.
2a. I have toyed with putting her on a pegasus, but then she is vulnerable to shooting and magic and at best can get a 5+ ward save. Stuck on this one and looking for advice!


Conclusion

In hammering out my ultimate 8th edition list this is as far as I have gotten with certainties. Everything else is up in the air, and I am hoping to continue this series as I hit on the right units/combos builds.

Hope this has been helpful!


Sat Oct 23, 2010 3:12 pm
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Depending on the point size, you cannot afford two Lords, but with the awesome Standard of Discipline, even the Supreme Sorceress General can now have Ld 10. :)

The Level 4 with Sacrificial Dagger and Level 2 with Tome of Furion are indeed a great combo, and seen a lot now. In general, I think a very common character setup will be Level 4, Level 2, BSB for many armies (not only DE).

Also agree, that Lore of Shadow and Dark Magic are awesome, especially in concert. :)

Bye
Thanee


Sat Oct 23, 2010 3:41 pm
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Great, a new D.R.A.I.C.H. author! Thank you mkistler. :D

From what one can see in D.net, the dagger happy Level 4 and her level 2 apprentice has been considered often as a powerful build, with Dark & Shadow being very often seen.

One question, though: Rule #3: Sac Dagger is a must on the level 4, and Tome of Furion on the level 2.
Why not the Darkstar Cloak? One more PD, one less spell to choose from, but as miasma is the most wanted spell anyway...

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Sat Oct 23, 2010 3:55 pm
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Nah, if you take Shadow on the Level 2, you must improve the chances on getting a double. :)

Miasma is a great and versatile spell, but depending on what you face, you really might want some of the other spells as well (Enfeeblement, Withering, Pit, Mindrazor).

Oh, and I totally disagree, that you should always take Mindrazor if you can. Withering is the best one IMHO.

Bye
Thanee


Sat Oct 23, 2010 3:57 pm
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Trainee Warrior

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Exactly, with Shadow in the level 2 you need you need the 3 spells to help get what you want.

Alternatively, you could take Dark or Fire and go for direct damage and use the Cloak to give her an extra dice. This is an effective use, I just don't think that it is the MOST effective use.


Sat Oct 23, 2010 4:07 pm
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Also,
"4. ...disrupting the opponent's plan and bringing them down to our level is by far the best way to win the day."
Mindrazor is not exactly bringing the opponent down to our level, but raising us to their level!
Raising our troops is a similar approach as a COB buffing a unit with +1 attack or KB, which is one of the best use of Magic IMHO.

Overall, even though I agree that the magic combo you describe can claim to be the most powerful, still, the way to use your magic depends on the rest of your army.
According with your future articles, there might be a variation.
For example, if the main trouble encountered with a specific army build is the opponent's characters, then Death could be considered.


==========================================
Mod's note to mkistler

I don't know if you intended to write several articles in the same thread,
or if you want to make several different threads.

In case you aimed at a single one, and if you wished the comments were postponed to the end of that single thread, it is possible to detach all the unwanted posts - like the present one - to another thread hyperlinked to this one.

Your choice.

Calisson

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Sat Oct 23, 2010 4:08 pm
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I agree with the above in most cases. But I also have something to add.

You don't even consider Death Magic.

My recent build has a level 4 death wizard in a large unit of warriors with banner of discipline so the general is Ld10 (very helpful with spirit leech).

With the increased importance of supporting characters in 8th (BSB getting a lot more important, magic increasing in power), I'm a firm believer in removing those threats before they do too much damage.

And death magic also generates extra power dice!

Why would you want to run a magical contest against enemy wizards when you can snipe them out of their units with a well placed spell as early as turn 1?

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7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)

8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16


Sat Oct 23, 2010 4:22 pm
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Does the banner affect Spirit Leech? I thought it said something about "unmodified" there.

Bye
Thanee


Sat Oct 23, 2010 5:17 pm
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Hmm, you're right. Thought it was only opponent's unmodified Ld.

Still it makes Ld10 general without the need for dreadlord, which was the main reason to get the banner.

_________________
7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)

8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16


Sat Oct 23, 2010 5:50 pm
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Hi , I play against Empire only (~20 games in 8th Edition). The best magic in this case is this:

SS
Lvl 4
Dagger
Khaeleth
Iron
Dark

S
Lvl 2
Ghrond
Furion
Metall

I know that eveyone likes Shadow, but the problem with Shadow is that you always need a CC to make use of Mindrazor and that the casting value is so high that you will be forced to use 6 dice at it if that important CC starts. This has 3 drawbacks:

- If you get IF you might aswell kill your own SS or make her useless
- Because Mindrazor is only usefull in CC you get only one chance to cast it (lets assume you would lose the fight without it, else it is just an overkill)
- What if you don't get enough Powerdice in the one round where you need Mindrazor ?

By using a SS with Dark you will get Protection against Shooting, Hordes and will be able to kill warmachines. The Lore of Metall is usefull to protect you with +2 Armor and can weaken and kill heavy Armortroops. Both Metall and Dark are very easy to cast and can be used in every round and don't need a CC to be usefull.

Sure it's cool to hit something with Str 8 , but it has to many restrictions to be an allcomer choice. I never played against any other race then Bret and Empire and i never played on a tournament, but because Empire is such a flexible army and my friend plays very good (since 6-7 years) I think my opinion might be worth something.

drei


Sat Oct 23, 2010 6:29 pm
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He's talking about tournament play. You do not know what armies to face there (and likely face very different armies as well). So you must be prepared for everything.

Bye
Thanee


Sat Oct 23, 2010 6:39 pm
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dreikaesehoch wrote:
I think my opinion might be worth something.
Sure! Thanks for sharing.
As Thanee said, the purpose of this thread is to build an all-around army, but
- Empire is, indeed, quite versatile;
- there will be readers interested in how best to adapt this thread's ideas to their specific needs.

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Sat Oct 23, 2010 7:15 pm
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mkistler wrote:
3. What is your ideal PD roll? Low. The answer is LOW. I have found that the ideal roll for PD is a '4', ideally a 2-2 on the dice.


Im not so sure if there is a best PD roll for all situations, but generally I think this is true. If you roll high on the wind of Magic it just means your best spell will be disspelled with 50% chance.

mkistler wrote:
1. Druchii are a "soft" army, soft as in we have T3 and low armor and therefore die easily. I have found that using magical damage to hurt the opponent is not very effective in 8th edition.

Absolutly true

mkistler wrote:
I have toyed with ward saves but find that she so rarely takes direct damage that it doesn't pay off

Cannons, Sniper, IF Table, Lore of Fire... if you pick the PoK you can dare to field her as a single char for one round if you need to.
WATCHOUT FOR DWELLERS BELOW (Lore of Life) WHEN SHE IS IN A BIG SM UNIT

mkistler wrote:
1a. The downside of course is that the spearmen become a bunker and don't fight very often. Haven't figured a way around this yet, and I do not think there is one.

If you manage to get extra life with soulsteal and have a wardsave you can use her in CC too. Else try to hide in a forest or change your position into another unit in later rounds, for example RXB (in my games it's often not worth to use there shooting so I basically walk beside the SM with my RXB unit). Depending on the way you charge the SS wont be in contact with a enemie unit at all. You can also ride a Pegasus and still use the Dagger, but without a Wardsave she will be killed by shooting (No Look out Sir against Cannons on Pegasus)


Sat Oct 23, 2010 8:21 pm
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Trainee Warrior

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Good feedback already, and some very good points. However as stated at the top of the thread, I am trying to make a tournament style list that can compete against all armies. If we could swap our lores between games I would certainly take Metal or Death on many occasions, but I strongly feel that Shadow is the best all around lore as it has answers for everything, even if not great ones.

On Death, I have tried the death lore several times and I am constantly underwhelmed. Its hard to get into range for the character killing spells and even then its lots of dice rolling to get a few wounds, which are often saved by the Ward Saves that anyone can buy now. Also the dice generation is random as well so if you sneak a wound or two through its only a 1/3 chance you get more dice... anyway if you feel Death works best for you go for it. I just haven't had much luck with it. :(

On Dwellers... what do we do? Is there anyway to auto-pass characteristic tests?

Mods: If I ever get around to writing more of these it would be great to put them all in one thread, but I don't see any hurry. Its going to take a lot of playtesting to work out the optimum build, which will take some time.


Sat Oct 23, 2010 8:56 pm
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mkistler wrote:
On Dwellers... what do we do? Is there anyway to auto-pass characteristic tests?


IMHO this spell is too strong. We play it with the houserule that it allows Look out Sir, still its very strong. Like Black Horror it's usefull against many different targets, but MR and Look out Sir help against Black Horror(only one wound) while in the case of Dwellers Below there is no protection.

I compared the spell to others in this topic:

http://druchii.net/viewtopic.php?t=66799&highlight=dwellers+below

Maybe Lore of Life isn't so good in a tournament (can't really tell because I know only 3 races of warhammer) but if your Opp knows that your an DE it's very strong. I think it's even worth to use it against a single char SS, and that is just ridiculous ...


Sat Oct 23, 2010 9:13 pm
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dreikaesehoch wrote:
IMHO this spell is too strong. We play it with the houserule that it allows Look out Sir, still its very strong.
Please remain on topic:
this thread is dedicated to finding the über-combo for tournaments.
Your remark may be true, but does not belong to this thread.

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Sat Oct 23, 2010 10:14 pm
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As for Winds of Magic roll. I will disagree with the low...

We're not looking for low roll... we're looking for the biggest difference between PD and DD... which by the rules for Winds of Magic is a double. Any double will give you a 2:1 PD:DD ratio.
4PD will overwhelm 2DD just as much as 12PD will overwhelm 6DD.

I would say one roll you don't want is 12, as it removes benefit you in case you got Darkstar Cloak or lucky channeling roll.

And then in opponent's magic phase you're hoping for as diverse roll as possible. 1 and 6 most preferably. Giving you 6DD to 7PD.

But then again... what will be rolled will be rolled, best you can do is adapt to a situation when you actually have less PD than the opponent has DD (can happen, especially against empire/dwarfs)

_________________
7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)

8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16


Sat Oct 23, 2010 10:34 pm
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Dalamar wrote:
4PD will overwhelm 2DD just as much as 12PD will overwhelm 6DD...


I'm not quite sure I agree with this. The idea is that we will want to be casting PoD early, either forcing our opponent to throw DD at it, or affecting them psychologically (and actually) with the increased amount of PD we now have. So if you end up getting 12PD straight off the bat (or even 8 for that matter), it will limit your potential gains from channeling and PoD.

On top of that, ideally we want our opponent to have as few DD as possible. Even though you are correct in the statement that 4v2 is just as good as 12v6 mathematically, the problem is this: because we have to cast the spell before they attempt to dispel it, there is always the chance that we will fail it and they won't have to use their DD anyway. Therefore, restricting them to only one dispel attempt per phase (through minimal DD) is far better than hoping to outgun them directly.

Having said all of this, the truth is that it's out of our control anyway, and therefore more theoretical than practical, but hey, it's still worth discussing :D


Sun Oct 24, 2010 6:23 am
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The area i play in locally isn't big on lore of death so I have found two lvl 4's is pretty good most tournaments around my area are at 2500. While I can't take alot of protection on my casters i put one on a steed with pendant and tome slinging shadow lore. The other I leave on foot with dagger and she uses dark staying in a big block of spearmen.

The perfect spell loadout for me is signature, 2,3,5,6 on shadow user, and chill, word, bladewind, and black horror on dark user. I've found that the 10-15 or so games i've played I almost always get what the spell selection for the shadow user, and usually 3/4 for the dark lore user.

I find the dagger with dark user is preferable due too never really throwing more than 2 dice on any dark spell and the shadow caster usually chucks 3 sometimes 5 dice( mindrazor only) 3 dice normally (-T spell or lower version of pit mainly on warmachines) or 2 dice (-S spell or powered up miasma).

Don't know if this was any help for you but thought i'd share insight ive had so far with 8th edition. Also as a side note outside of my one unit of spears generally horded for 3.5 ranks.

I use mainly msu units as i've found that dropping alot of chaff units first 6-7 deployment turns my opponents are generally on war machines or characters so I can then drop 12-14 bg or witch elves where they are most profitable match up wise depending on the army i'm facing( I kind off play empire tvi style with my elves without detachment rules since dark elves aren't terrible at stuff like everything but lectors, wizards, and war machines like empire).

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Sun Oct 24, 2010 7:41 am
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Il Maestro wrote:
Dalamar wrote:
4PD will overwhelm 2DD just as much as 12PD will overwhelm 6DD...


I'm not quite sure I agree with this. The idea is that we will want to be casting PoD early, either forcing our opponent to throw DD at it, or affecting them psychologically (and actually) with the increased amount of PD we now have. So if you end up getting 12PD straight off the bat (or even 8 for that matter), it will limit your potential gains from channeling and PoD.

On top of that, ideally we want our opponent to have as few DD as possible. Even though you are correct in the statement that 4v2 is just as good as 12v6 mathematically, the problem is this: because we have to cast the spell before they attempt to dispel it, there is always the chance that we will fail it and they won't have to use their DD anyway. Therefore, restricting them to only one dispel attempt per phase (through minimal DD) is far better than hoping to outgun them directly.

Having said all of this, the truth is that it's out of our control anyway, and therefore more theoretical than practical, but hey, it's still worth discussing :D


A roll of a double in all general circumstances is good for ANY army using a wizard because it gives the maximum of 2:1 marginal difference.

However, for us Dark Elves, it is best (IMO) to aim for a double 1. Why?
Because they're restricted to one DD, meaning there is no way they can pull off a lucky IF dispel on you. Meanwhile, you can easily gauge what minimum rolls you need to render his single die useless, generally an 11+ assuming they're a normal Lv4 +4 to dispel wizard. We have two excellent arcane items to take advantage of this double one roll on the Winds of Magic. Darkstar Cloak and Sacrificial Dagger. Both will basically tip our starting PD count to 3+ (sac, +1 PD/spell. cloak +1 PD). Allowing us to reliably cast PoD on two wizards, which will suddenly tip our PD count to 2D3+2 (assuming two wizards). Suddenly it's 4-8 PD: 1 DD after your two PoD castings (assuming both wizards manage PoD).

As such, I think two wizards, a Lv4 and a Lv2 as mentioned many times, is the optimal number of wizards to include in a list to take advantage of the double 1 on Winds of Magic.

For comparison to illustrate my point.
3 Wizards, one with Sac Dagger, one with Darkstar Cloak.
On a roll of double one for Winds of Magic, each wizard will roll 1 die each on PoD, with only one wizard getting a stab if they failed to cast initially.

2 Wizards, one with Sac Dagger, one with Darkstar Cloak.
One wizard will use one die and a stab if required. - high chance of success to cast at least. The other will use one pool die and her Darkstar Cloak die, again, higher chance of success to cast PoD on two die compared to one.

So 3 Wizards yields a much better gain, with a potential of 3D3 + 3 PD, but a much lower chance to succeed all three PoD rolls.

2 Wizards has a much more reliable chance to cast PoD off each round at an acceptable number of PD gain.

Not sure if that's helpful from my past 8th ed experience so far.

_________________
What's mine is mine, What's yours is mine.
Now that we understand each other, lets get down to business.

Jacks -Shade
- WS 5 - - S 3 - - T 2 - - D 6 - - I 5 -

Equipment
Short Sword, MC Long Sword*, Dagger, RxB & RHB [20/10] MC Shade Cloak, 4 Throwing Daggers, 3x Healing Vials, 451C, [3]Dark Venom, [4]Unseen Chains, Food, Dark Steed- Spike

Skills
Basic Stealth, Awareness, TWF, Suithenlu Khythan, Ride

Magic Item
Eye of the Jabberwock

*Magical properties possibly imbued


Sun Oct 24, 2010 9:22 am
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Slave (off the Altar)

Joined: Sat Jul 24, 2010 6:39 am
Posts: 15
Post 
Dalamar wrote:
But then again... what will be rolled will be rolled, best you can do is adapt to a situation when you actually have less PD than the opponent has DD (can happen, especially against empire/dwarfs)


Or Orcs and Goblins: Staff of sneaky stealing, one PD less to us and one more DD to them, and that banner that gives one DD / rank of the unit. (if Im not remembering totally wrong...)

So orcs can be a pain to use magic against.


Sun Oct 24, 2010 1:11 pm
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Executioner
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2010 10:57 am
Posts: 1956
Location: Hell
Post 
Which is why it's a good idea to have the Lv4 take Dark Magic for all the aggressive and single die spells to bleed your opponent his DD. You could take Lore of Fire too, but it doesn't have as many scary spells like Dark. Well unless they have a Lv4 on top of all the bonus DD, then you'll have to kill the DD source or the Lv4 before you can think about relying on magic haha.

_________________
What's mine is mine, What's yours is mine.
Now that we understand each other, lets get down to business.

Jacks -Shade
- WS 5 - - S 3 - - T 2 - - D 6 - - I 5 -

Equipment
Short Sword, MC Long Sword*, Dagger, RxB & RHB [20/10] MC Shade Cloak, 4 Throwing Daggers, 3x Healing Vials, 451C, [3]Dark Venom, [4]Unseen Chains, Food, Dark Steed- Spike

Skills
Basic Stealth, Awareness, TWF, Suithenlu Khythan, Ride

Magic Item
Eye of the Jabberwock

*Magical properties possibly imbued


Sun Oct 24, 2010 1:29 pm
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Trainee Warrior

Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2004 8:25 pm
Posts: 47
Post 
Krueger1981 wrote:
The area i play in locally isn't big on lore of death so I have found two lvl 4's is pretty good most tournaments around my area are at 2500. While I can't take alot of protection on my casters i put one on a steed with pendant and tome slinging shadow lore. The other I leave on foot with dagger and she uses dark staying in a big block of spearmen.

The perfect spell loadout for me is signature, 2,3,5,6 on shadow user, and chill, word, bladewind, and black horror on dark user. I've found that the 10-15 or so games i've played I almost always get what the spell selection for the shadow user, and usually 3/4 for the dark lore user.

I find the dagger with dark user is preferable due too never really throwing more than 2 dice on any dark spell and the shadow caster usually chucks 3 sometimes 5 dice( mindrazor only) 3 dice normally (-T spell or lower version of pit mainly on warmachines) or 2 dice (-S spell or powered up miasma).

Don't know if this was any help for you but thought i'd share insight ive had so far with 8th edition. Also as a side note outside of my one unit of spears generally horded for 3.5 ranks.

I use mainly msu units as i've found that dropping alot of chaff units first 6-7 deployment turns my opponents are generally on war machines or characters so I can then drop 12-14 bg or witch elves where they are most profitable match up wise depending on the army i'm facing( I kind off play empire tvi style with my elves without detachment rules since dark elves aren't terrible at stuff like everything but lectors, wizards, and war machines like empire).


Really good ideas. I've considered two Level 4's but I am a big fan of the Dreadlord, actually looking at putting him on a Peg with Crown of Command for hunting small units and holding things up.

I do actually see a benefit to Hoarded spears because it becomes harder to engage the SS, and even if they do its only 1 model touching, so at best 3 guys can fight her. Considering you are probably buying 30ish spears anyway, I like...


Sun Oct 24, 2010 4:31 pm
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Corsair
Corsair
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2008 10:00 pm
Posts: 8707
Location: Hag Graef
Post 
HE also can build up a very strong defense phase.
Let alone dwarves, who can steal a PD like O&G do.
Empire has a staff which "postpones" magic dice to the next turn, allowing up to 3 PD transformed into 3 DD and reversely.

We must not rely too much on a powerful magic phase, sometimes it just doesn't cut off.

_________________
Winds never stop blowing, Oceans are borderless. Get a ship and a crew, so the World will be ours! Today the World, tomorrow Nagg! {--|oBrotherhood of the Coast!o|--}


Sun Oct 24, 2010 5:24 pm
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Trainee Warrior

Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2010 5:53 am
Posts: 35
Post 
Mkistler, because of the recent faq allowind the cheap +1 leadership banner that even spears can carry (I believe its called discipline standard)I've found that I would like the dreadlord but he isn't even needed due to the supreme you set as general (in spears) conveys leadership 10 then due to inspiring presence being allowed by it.

Although I would add I start the dark user in the spears generally by turn three or so I reform the spears and my 20 croosbows to 7 wide(spears) and 5 wide (crossbows). I generally then have the sorcerer leave the unit and hide out between two units spears and whatever flank unit is on her side when combat happens unless i role soul stealer cause with that spell I can just refill her up.

_________________
The 7p theory;

previous proper planning prevents piss poor performance


Sun Oct 24, 2010 8:28 pm
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