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Hellebron? 
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Black Guard
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Dear Druchii fellows,

Following your comments on my 2,990pts list, recommending me NOT to field Hellebron, I would like to emphasize this special rule from our beloved Khaine Holy Priestess:

- Witch Elves are counted AS CORE UNITS !!! And they ROCK in 8th ed rules. Try to picture how our core and special units will look like...

I foresee two ways to use her:
1/I can field her into an unit, and grant a very good protection against magic (spell is gone on +4 if dispell roll fails). In that case, she will be at the far edge of the front rank. An assassin and death hag will take care of other characters.
2/She can ride her pet manticore, and yet she'll be vulnerable to any shooting, she can also target any prey and destroy it in one round. :twisted:

Your thoughts? Am I the only with this foolish thought?

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Wed Nov 10, 2010 6:38 pm
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Executioner
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Hi there,

WEs as core is just cool. Imagine 750 points in WEs, plus 3 or 4 Hydras and your special choices, maybe 20 BG and 12 CoKs and some Shades. Then add characters, just brutal.

I'd love to see how would an army like this look on the tabletop. Sure it'd be amazing.

Honestly, I have no idea how this army would work, but one thing is for sure, it'll be ****ing scary to any opponent. (Excuse me for the wording XD).

Should you try that, please report! :)

See ya


Wed Nov 10, 2010 7:36 pm
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Scourge
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I don't think we recommended you not to field hellebron, she is a good character, just that there may be better options among the special characters, IIRC that was the poll on 'is hellebron the best special character' Generally I think there are a few better ones, but if you want witch elves then by all means, she certainly is nasty, that will be fun list for you and scary for the opponent. Just remember how extremely frail units of WE are.

I don't think your the only one with this foolish thought, I just don't have enough witch elves, whatever happens, I think this list will be enjoyable to play.

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Wed Nov 10, 2010 7:45 pm
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The fact that she's rocking 6 weapon skill 7 strength 10 attacks plus an additional d3 is pretty awesome. Honestly I'd say she's near the top if not already there.

The only thing that bothers me about our special characters is none of them have very good saves. Her's specifically are only for spells and on lower than a 4+ the spell is cast and tears her up.

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Wed Nov 10, 2010 9:10 pm
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Shade

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I've fielded her in the past and I had a total blast whenever I did. I keep a Cauldron with Bloodshield focused on her unit to give her a ward. I've used her in Witch Elves, Black Guard and a spear horde. She has never once let me down.
I say try her out once and see if she works for you. Goodluck!


Wed Nov 10, 2010 9:16 pm
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Generalissimo
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In 7th ed she was excellent.

In 8th ed, she sucks. Sorry, but its true. Yes, 7-9 WS7 S10 attacks with hatred is awesome, BUT unless she manages to kill all of the opponents who could strike back against her (a tall order against most horde units, even if she is accompanied by a big unit of special infantry) then she is going to get hit by lots of targeted attacks back. Her T3 and lack of an armour save make her very vulnerable indeed.

Lets say, for example, that she leads a unit of 21 witch elves (just over 200 points) against a horde unit of 35 orcs with additional hand weapons (same total of points). The witches and Hellebron will likely strike first and kill around 10-15 on average. The orcs then allocate back 12 attacks against her, hitting on average 4 times and wounding 2.666 times.

That's a lot of wounds for very little impact. And it doesn't take much to go wrong for her to suffer more wounds and die in a single round of combat.

No, sadly in 8th edition the importance of armour, ward and regen saves has gone up. Hellebron's lack of these makes her a bad choice.

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Wed Nov 10, 2010 9:59 pm
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As Red... says, her fragility is just too big a price to pay. Yes, she hits like a truck, and is an exceedingly interesting and fluffy Special character, but her rules are very incompatible with the current climate of the game.

If you did field her though, keeping her buffed with the 5+ Ward and hanging her on the very corner of a unit to minimize return attacks would be the way to go.

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Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:13 pm
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One of key points mentioned by the poster was making WE core.

If you really want core WE, sure she may be worth it even if she dies. If you expect her to wipe/break enemies throughout an entire game, It would not happen often as most people can kill her with simple R&F units.

You could play "keep away" with her and try to keep her alive for points denial if you really want core WE's.

I think, as stated by many, you will have fun regardless. Also, she can very easily put the hurt on many characters if she doesn't die.

P.S. you could put her is a unit of Execs, get a +5 glittering robe cast on the unit for +5 scaly skin and a 5+ ward from CoB. that would probly be the best way to protect her +5 armor (+3 for execs) and 5+ ward. In addition she would have her magic amulet for a +4 magic dispel. Don't forget "look out sir" when needed.

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Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:21 pm
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I've played her a couple of times. She always dies to rank and file, but other than that, she is very nice and allows her unit to smash almost anything they hit.

(Death 1, smashed a unit of ghouls, then overran into the next unit who were subsequently buffed by vanhel's for ASF and rerolls in combat.)

(Death 2 chaos warriors; entire army s5 or better and frenzied. Killed in the first phase of combat after killing 7.)

The big thing in both battles was that I hadn't invested enough in magic.

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Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:43 pm
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Lore of Shadow debuffs help. The Enfeebling foe is my favorite spell in the game. Needing 6's to wound her, frequent use of Bloodshield and matching her against the right unit can help to keep her alive.


Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:57 pm
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Yeah, but for 350 points she is amazing. To be fair my dread lords tend to run higher than that AND she's str 10, AND you get witch elves as core, stick her in a unit and try and move her around get a flank or something.

Whereas Malekith is not feasible purely on the fact that he is 600 points just walking around and he's not exactly super man either.

Seems to me you'd pick either Morathi if you wanted magic or Hellibron if you wanted something dead in melee. Malekith only gets a 2+ ward if the attacks are non-magical, and for a measly 10 points you can make an entire units attacks magical sticking him at a whopping 4+ armor save. Eff that.

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Wed Nov 10, 2010 11:46 pm
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She's still useable... but only in one way.

Frontally fighting anything, she'll be overwhelmed by return attacks.

But on a Manticore, performing a flank or rear charge, only 4 models will ever be able to hit her back. Sure she might take a wound now and then from those attacks back... but she won't die in a couple rounds, enough to decimate any unit.

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Thu Nov 11, 2010 12:03 am
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Don't see why you couldn't just stick her on the side and plan accordingly to charge in a fashion that doesn't yield many attacks back to her.

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Thu Nov 11, 2010 12:36 am
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Harder to achieve on the ground than it is with wings.

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Thu Nov 11, 2010 1:21 am
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Hellebron + manti = 550pts

now you bump out a Lv4 points wise. It would be a little better to just run a DL on a BD unless having core witches is your main focus.

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Thu Nov 11, 2010 1:57 am
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The Guiding Eye
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Correct me if I'm wrong but her Bestiary entry (p66) say's that she may join a Cauldron of Blood - has this changed in 8th with the addition that characters may not join warmachines?

If not, she'd gain a 4+ ward and mean only 6 enemies max (or 2 cav) would get to attack her - meaning she could take them all out before they get to strike! ;) or they send in further attack - through the 'step up' rule... :roll:

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Thu Nov 11, 2010 1:59 am
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Dangerous Beans wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong but her Bestiary entry (p66) say's that she may join a Cauldron of Blood - has this changed in 8th with the addition that characters may not join warmachines?

If not, she'd gain a 4+ ward and mean only 6 enemies max (or 2 cav) would get to attack her - meaning she could take them all out before they get to strike! ;) or they send in further attack - through the 'step up' rule... :roll:


Dude that is sweet!

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Thu Nov 11, 2010 6:08 am
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Thanks Druchii fellows,
Fielding Morathi is a safe pick, too safe to have fun! So I'll go with Hellebron and debrief the tourney!

@Dangerous Bean: Great inspiration boet!
@Too Cold: Using a DL on BD is always a must but this tourney allows special char for once. My dragon will have other opportunities to join my legion. And I have two of them. Can't wait to play 4,000pts!

Concerning the way to field her, I will not take the manti as it' s a very vulnerable combo. The COB sounds really good. If properly played, that's about 600pts of VP denial to the opponent. Putting her on the corner of a 8-wide rank can be also good.

I need to think and try both option.
Cheers

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Thu Nov 11, 2010 6:55 am
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Corsair
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Hellebron potentially joining a COB discussed here => Crone and the CoB

I'm with Dalamar: Crone and her winged kitten for rear/side attacks.
One COB and one level 2 as support characters.
Double hydra, and many, many WE.

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Last edited by Calisson on Thu Nov 11, 2010 10:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:35 am
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Dragon Lord
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You can't join the CoB with Hellebron anymore.
BRB prevents it and Hellebron didn't get an update like dwarf/empire engineers did.

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Thu Nov 11, 2010 1:36 pm
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Hi there,

Correct me if i'm wrong but...aren't army books supposed to have preference over BRB rules?


Thu Nov 11, 2010 1:55 pm
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Generalissimo
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Quote:
One of key points mentioned by the poster was making WE core.

If you really want core WE, sure she may be worth it even if she dies


350 points is way too expensive for a basically unusable model, just to make witch elves core. Given that you can take up to 50% in special choices and up to 50% in characters, you could quite easily make a khainite, witch heavy army that wasn't led by Hellebron (a veritable walking pincushion to be on legs). Okay, so you can only field 3 duplicate special choices, but you could easily combine a mix and match of witch elves, executioners, cauldrons of blood, death hags and assassins to make a very viable 2k list, without needing Hellebron.

I can see both sides of the argument for Hellebron being able to accompany a Cauldron of Blood: it was always a bit ambiguous in 7th ed and is even more so in 8th ed. The BRB indicates the characters cannot join warmachines, but then the DE Army Book says that Hellebron can 'accompany' a Cauldron of Blood. Army books take precedence, but that may not matter as 'accompany' is an undefined term.

I think it's a very interesting idea, but ultimately I think I would be against using her that way anyway because if she's part of a warmachine then she can't charge and is possible to ignore. At 200 points, it can sometimes be hard to justify a non combat unit: at 550 points (cauldron + hellebron) it would be nigh on impossible. That's over 25% of your army in a 2k game!

Don't get me wrong, I think that Hellebron could do well in a game, either on foot (if she concentrates on units that she can destroy in a single go, your sorceresses manage to debuff the enemy so that they are harmless or if you position her carefully) or on her manticore (particularly for flank attacks, as mentioned) but there's way too much risk for her to be a competitive (or even partially competitive) choice. It's far too easy to kill her in hand to hand combat (on both foot or on a manti) or shoot her to bits (on a manti especially). It's a gamble too far to be a decent choice, so she remains a 'no, unless you're set on fielding a deliberately underpowered or very fluffy army'.

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Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:10 pm
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I could see Hellebron on cauldron, with a BSB cauldron in 2500pts games. Followed by 2 unit of 30 witches elves in core (for the 25% minimum). Give the ward each turn for both unit. Can add a lvl 2 with staff of sorcery for magic defense

2 hydra in rare, and 1 big unit of executionner, followed by a unit of cold one.

7 drops on the table, 3 big unit of fighter, one fast mover, 2 hydra for flank charge... I'll try this list one day.


Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:26 pm
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PjEOs wrote:
Hi there,

Correct me if i'm wrong but...aren't army books supposed to have preference over BRB rules?

See, I thought this was the case as well... and without an FAQ, should still be leagal...


Thu Nov 11, 2010 3:07 pm
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xFallenx wrote:
PjEOs wrote:
Hi there,

Correct me if i'm wrong but...aren't army books supposed to have preference over BRB rules?

See, I thought this was the case as well... and without an FAQ, should still be leagal...


Following that, one question:

When she join a COB, does she litterally "join" it, or does she become the death hag bringing it?

If she join a death hag that took the CoB, she's actually the 4th crew. Assuming that, she could join a BSB CoB.... what a good way to protect it, and bring at the same place the BSB and the general!! At the same time, why not giving the ASF banner to the BSB... ouch!!


Thu Nov 11, 2010 3:25 pm
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