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What happened to our pride? DL riding a dragon! 
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Black Guard
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Hi druchii fellows,

Since 8th ed rules release, it looks like our dreadlords are being replaced by sorceresses. No more majestic dragons flying with our legions and bringing death upon our King's foes!

Basically, I haven't seen one of our favourit mount in any 8th ed tourneys. Moreover, on the last DRAICH regarding ├╝ber Dreadlord building, no dragon either!

I know new rules on fear are not the best for dragons but there should be a way to field one these beasts in 8eth?

I propose: black dragon with DL equiped with 3-4 Null talismans + dragon helm + POK + sword of might.

What are your ideas to put back a dragon on 8th ed rules table tops?!?

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Tue Nov 16, 2010 11:06 am
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Dark Rider
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The thing with 8th and dragons is:
I games of 2000pts or less you have 500pts for lords:
DL + dragon is 445 without any gear at all!

so to even be able to field a good dragon lord you need to have atleast 2200pts armies.

secondly when you arrive at that kind of big armies the amount of lord points gives you the oppurtunity to field a DL on foot + Lvl 4 sorceress.

Since you nowadays gets 2D6 "free" powerdice no matter what mage you bring in combination with our very powerful combo with Sac dagger and power of darkness our magic is really worth the points.
And remember that a lvl 4 sorceress is your best magical defence aswell.
If you don't take a mage then you really loose those "free" powerdice.

However, do not underestimate the dragon, he is a MONSTER, I tried a Dragon + Manticore + Hydra + 2 chariot list a week ago and the O&G enemy was wiped at turn 4. Don't underestimate the dragon, with breath it can take down a 30 unit of orcs in just 2 turns
(2 turns is 12 attacks from the dragon, 2D6 stomp, 2D6 breath and 8 attacks from the lord).
(however I always combocharge with a small unit so the unit champion can take any challange).


How to gear him is all up to you, many ppl like to give him crown, I prefer the crown on a pegasus/dark steed since with a dragon I usually win my combats and don't really need to roll break tests.
too bad I can't have a pegasus DL + Dragon DL :evil:

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Tue Nov 16, 2010 11:47 am
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Executioner

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There are several reasons that the DL on dragon is more rare now :
- Breath weapon only once per game and terror nerfed meaning you cant hop around breating units and causing terror as was a popular tactics
- Can`t brake ranks and the charge is more unpredictable.
- The importance of the now extremely viable Lv4 with Sac. dagger that is almost guaranteed to dominate the magic phase.

That beeing said Iv tried it with some success DL on dragon with Black dragon egg for that extra punch on impact. As Truant sais, you need to combo charge with a champion unit to avoid the DL beeing challenged.

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Tue Nov 16, 2010 2:02 pm
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Malekith's Best Friend
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I have posted up a number of battle reports here on Druchii.net where I use a Dreadlord on Black Dragon in an 8th edition list, if you want to search for them. I think the Black Dragon is still perfectly competitive, and the whole "unable to break ranks" thing isn't a huge obstacle because now you can basically use the dragon like a huge, nasty, durable, highly mobile chariot; pick a unit that's too dangerous for your regular troops, or that has a ton of Steadfast-rank-and-file models, and watch the dragon score tons of kills. In many ways, the dragon has gotten even better in the sense that it easily outmaneuvers infantry units and flies circles around large blocks, so most opponents are too slow to counter a dragon with combat units.

There are a couple major disadvantages of the dragon, one of which has already been touched upon.

1) Magic. Obviously, if you're buying a Dreadlord on Black Dragon, you probably won't have the points left over to get a Supreme Sorc. For both magic offense and defense, a Lord-level caster makes a huge difference, and not having one really damages the magic phase. Even if you go for a more modest purchase of one or two Level 2 Sorcs, the points really start to add up for characters since you will probably buy a BSB as well.

2) Warmachine accuracy, no longer randomizing between rider/mount and True Line of Sight. I really, really struggle to keep my dragon alive in 8th edition. Since opponents no longer have to guess range, and since dragons can't really be hidden due to true-line-of-sight, any fool with a cannon or a stonethrower can kill the dragon off very quickly. I don't think this is the end of the world, since my dragon drawing the attention of 2 or 3 stonethrowers every turn allows my Black Guard to get into combat unscathed, but I find the dragon is frequently getting shot down. The fact that both the rider and dragon are hit by stone throwers/cannonballs is very unfortunate too; the rider no longer provides a 5+ "Ward" save for having hits allocated to him, which he can easily shrug off with the Pendant.

There are a few other disadvantages of the dragon (low Initiative, loss of Hatred) but these are made up for by certain advantages (use rider's Initiative for tests, Thunderstomp) so they aren't too bad.

Overall, I do think the dragon is viable, but your success will really come down to how many warmachines you come across, and whether those warmachines roll well or not. Losing your dragon Turn 1, or not losing it at all, is purely a factor of luck. So you have to ask yourself... Do you feel lucky? Big risk, big reward for using a Black Dragon.

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Tue Nov 16, 2010 6:44 pm
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Dragon Lord
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To avoid the shooting, slam the dragon into combat as early as turn 2 (turn 1 if someone was stupid enough to march up to the dragon on their first turn).

Crown of Command, Pendant of Khaeleth and you will tie up even the hardiest troops, giving your army enough time to deal with the enemy army minus the deadliest unit they have.

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Tue Nov 16, 2010 7:13 pm
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Malekith's Best Friend
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Dalamar wrote:
To avoid the shooting, slam the dragon into combat as early as turn 2 (turn 1 if someone was stupid enough to march up to the dragon on their first turn).

Crown of Command, Pendant of Khaeleth and you will tie up even the hardiest troops, giving your army enough time to deal with the enemy army minus the deadliest unit they have.


This.

Good suggestion against shooting-heavy opponents. Survive that first turn, work hard to get into combat for the second turn.

Against opponents without too much shooting, you can spend the first couple of turns lining up a perfect charge situation, to really expose a weakness. As I mentioned above, most opponents are fairly poorly equipped to deal with a nasty flying monster in this regiment-heavy environment.

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Tue Nov 16, 2010 7:19 pm
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Dragon Lord
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Unless they have shadow magic...

With a dragon, your magic defense suffers.

With Withering on, T6 Dragon can suddenly become T3... hatchling.

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Tue Nov 16, 2010 7:34 pm
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Brolock
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My normal kit for the Dragon DL is the Crown of Command, Pendant, Heavy Armor, SDC, Enchanted Shield, and Whip of Agony, this gives you 5 S5 attacks at -3 to armor, a 1+ save on the Dragon, and a 2+ if you get dismounted, and you're stubborn on LD 10, which means you can afford to lose some combats as long as you're killing enemies.

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Tue Nov 16, 2010 7:42 pm
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Corsair

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I just used a dragon in a tourney and finished third over all. The dragon lord preformed really well, never dying and always being the terror of my opponents. There was not a single time I wished I had gone with a level 4. A level 2 with staff of sorcery gives you almost the same amount of magic defense, at half a price of the lvl 4.

My dread lord had POK, Crimson death and potion of foolhardiness + mudane armour. Soul render would have been better than crimson death, but otherwise it worked like a dream. Oh and most of the time I forgot to use the potion...


Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:39 pm
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Loki wrote:
My normal kit for the Dragon DL is the Crown of Command, Pendant, Heavy Armor, SDC, Enchanted Shield, and Whip of Agony, this gives you 5 S5 attacks at -3 to armor, a 1+ save on the Dragon, and a 2+ if you get dismounted, and you're stubborn on LD 10, which means you can afford to lose some combats as long as you're killing enemies.


Takes you over points limit unfortunately, enchanted shield is still 15 remember (I made the same mistake recently). Dragonhelm and soulrender would work though.


Tue Nov 16, 2010 9:00 pm
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Dragon Lord
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Last time I used PoK, CoC and Whip of Agony.

Whip is overlooked but people seem to miss the fact that it now grants a total of:
Strike always at S5
Armor Piercing
+1 Attack
Uses one hand only so leaves room for shield.

For mere 25 points, it's a steal.

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Tue Nov 16, 2010 9:46 pm
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Corsair

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IMO the wip of agony is not good enough because it is only str 5. Sure you have the same armour save modifier, but most of the stuff you will be fighting will have at least T4, so you will be wounding on 3's.


Wed Nov 17, 2010 6:54 am
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Black Guard
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Thanks for all your priceless inputs Druchii fellows.

Sounds like the best combo to field again a DL on dragon is:

Crown of command, whip of agony (with AHW), POK. Mundane armour.

Stubborn, 5A S5 AP-3, ward save. AS of 2/3

The crown and whip make this DL actually matching perfectly with the miniature of Rakarth!

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Wed Nov 17, 2010 9:04 am
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Dark Rider
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"the best combo" is very subjective :)

Your combo is illegal
You cannot combine whip with AHW, go for whip + shield.

Try him out! and feel if you need the crown or not (how often do you have to take break test and at what level).
I want to paint up my confrontation dragon, because it's damn beautiful and I want to field it!

There are so many viable combinations out there.

Whip, Black amulet, ironcruse icon is a bit different but damn fun when facing enemies with S4 or less that doesn't want to attack the dragon.

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Wed Nov 17, 2010 11:12 am
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Black Guard
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@ Truant.
Are you sure it is illegal? From my understanding, the whip can be used along with a hand weapon. Means 5 attacks.

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Wed Nov 17, 2010 11:42 am
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Dark Rider
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You can never use a magic weapon combined with a mundane.

EDIT: shouldn't have used "never" english is not my mother tongue.

in 8th there is a new rule "paired weapons" in which you can use AHW with a magic weapon, check the dagger of hotek in the FAQ for example.

The whip is a beastmaster scourge, and therefore it gains the benefits from it (check FAQ).

Hence it's a STR 5, +1 attack, AP weapon. so you get 5 attacks by just taking the whip.

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Wed Nov 17, 2010 12:12 pm
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in 8th there is a new rule "paired weapons" in which you can use AHW with a magic weapon, check the dagger of hotek in the FAQ for example.

The whip is a beastmaster scourge, and therefore it gains the benefits from it (check FAQ).

Hence it's a STR 5, +1 attack, AP weapon. so you get 5 attacks by just taking the whip.[/quote]

This was indeed very useful information. The whip is indeed a steal.

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Thu Nov 18, 2010 8:11 am
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Basically it's no longer listed as a hand weapon, so you can't pair it with an AHW for starters. Next is you can't use AHW with a magical weapon without an exception like our Dagger of Hotek.

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- WS 5 - - S 3 - - T 2 - - D 6 - - I 5 -

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Short Sword, MC Long Sword*, Dagger, RxB & RHB [20/10] MC Shade Cloak, 4 Throwing Daggers, 3x Healing Vials, 451C, [3]Dark Venom, [4]Unseen Chains, Food, Dark Steed- Spike

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Eye of the Jabberwock

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Thu Nov 18, 2010 9:14 am
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Malekith's Personal Guard

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oh- i like that crown of command part! one other thing for me is to make sure its the General for the extended range!

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Fri Nov 19, 2010 6:07 am
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L1qw1d wrote:
oh- i like that crown of command part! one other thing for me is to make sure its the General for the extended range!


True, this is quite a nice point. Extended range for that Leadership 10 is always a good thing, especially in the early turns where shooting/magic can have a heavy impact on Panic and your units are also very close to the table edge.

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Fri Nov 19, 2010 6:03 pm
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