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5/6 vanila COK - extinction. ;/ 
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Assassin
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Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2002 1:09 pm
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Do any one use 5 or 6 COK today?
I've just come to conclusion the only role they are capable of doing is redirection/bite [to be charged then die/flee] or charge cavalary units.
Agianst big units with spears, they die like flies even with 2+ save.
Can't hold units on their own, and aren't capable of delivering enough attacks.;/

Even with COB. COC are much better here but also not good.

I have 5 of them, 21 WE, 4RBT, 13 Corsairs, 1 Assassin, 7DRiders, all from 4th. ed. and I'm a little tired of "playing to learn tactics with junk not coherent army" Also 2 COC, from the 8th ed I'm thing of possible ideas but there are non. I can buy some warriors, but most of my armies should be the one i have [nice painted it is also]. ;/

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Sun Nov 21, 2010 6:19 pm
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Cold One Knight

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I think that smaller units of CoK are probably going to be less popular than they were under the old versions of warhammer. I think its a good thing, it never was really right seeing 5 Knights breaking a massive unit of infantry etc.

I run 14 man units (7x2). While these are very expensive and have got "shoot me" painted all over them, when they hit, they hit very very hard.

If you want something that is small, cheap and still hits hard i'd go for a chariots. again they wont break big units on their own but under 8th Ed. nothing really does. Except massive units of blood knights etc.

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D


Sun Nov 21, 2010 6:51 pm
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Malekith's Best Friend
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I still use CoK because they are useful firepwer sinkls, but they are just cavalry, s they should stick to cavalry targets: lighter flanking units, artillery and other things that can't fight back. I gave up running them for a while, but they do have their uses, and can be effective crashing around in the enemy rear. Treat them as 2+ save DR and and pick your targets accordingly. You should get some more use out of them.

As for troops, you army is far to small. Add a hydra and see if you can find any additional 4th/5th ed figures online. to bulk out your existing units. Some crossbows in place of all those RXB would also be a good thing.

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Sun Nov 21, 2010 10:20 pm
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Noble
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6 CoKs with musician is 170 points. With a cauldron, they hit like a ton of bricks - they still do here in 8th edition! 12S6 attacks with WS5 rerollable equals 10 dead infantry or maybe 6 dead knights or 5 wounds on a monster.

In addition, COKs are sturdy and have high leadership, and their S4 allows them to keep on dealing some damage in following rounds taking little back themselves. Once they get in there, they are pretty hard to get rid of!

I once crashed them frontally into a unit of 25 ironbreakers on round two. When the game ended after 10ish rounds of combat, 2 knights and 9 ironbreakers still remained. Sturdy bastards!
In the same battle I crashed my other unit of 6 knights into the anvil of doom and killed it in a couple of rounds.

Another game, they completely wiped out an Engine of the Gods with a charge, getting countercharged by saurii the next turn whom they held up for 5 rounds of combat killing 15 lizards before succumbing.

All this only works with a cauldron ofcourse, and one has to consider whether 225 points is a bit much to babysit two units of 6 knights. For me it has worked wonders anyway...


Sun Nov 21, 2010 10:39 pm
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Executioner
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Yea precisely my thought, it's only truely effective when there's a CoB to give them a +1 A buff. I would mainly use a small unit of 5-6 for monster hunting, or against small units of Ogres or something like that, that would normally pummel my infantry.

They're a nice screening unit too, 2+ AS and providing hard cover to whatever's behind. But I don't run them because I tend to fail Terminator saves more often than not.

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Short Sword, MC Long Sword*, Dagger, RxB & RHB [20/10] MC Shade Cloak, 4 Throwing Daggers, 3x Healing Vials, 451C, [3]Dark Venom, [4]Unseen Chains, Food, Dark Steed- Spike

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Mon Nov 22, 2010 1:26 am
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Executioner

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Imo the "problem" with COK`s is that it is now longer a sure thing. It has become a situationlan unit that sometimes shine and sometimes does almost nothing depending on you opponent. As others mention here they become much better with Cauldron support and is otherwise abit of an expencive screening unit. If or when I field them it is a unit with at least 7 with +1 movement banner and with a DL to give them punch. Very good agains Ogres and other big guys.

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Mon Nov 22, 2010 9:02 am
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Scourge
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I find them a very handy way of adding active CR to my R&F's (specifically speamen) static CR. I use 5 CoKs as heavy hunter units in small games, they single out small/light enemy units they can take on by themselves or combo charge with R&F against larger units neither could really handle on their own. I find them great for menacing flanks and working in concert with our infantry blocks, but I usually only take a unit this small in 1K games, in 2k+ they get splatted quite easily and so I take 10.

CoK, as with most of the rest of our units in our army, really shine when working in concert with the other aspects of the army, they lend killing power to the footsloggers, and can be buffed with +1 attack to cause alot of damage, quite alot of medium-sized infantry units can easily fall prey to CoK after losing a rank to shooting and being hit with buffed CoK whilst hexed.

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Mon Nov 22, 2010 11:16 am
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Black Guard
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True 5-6 COK buffed by COB will always be hammer but:
- Too easy to loose such a small unit and give 170pts away
- We usually have 1 COB per list, and when it's time to send the 5-6 COK in combat, you usually bless other units. Such as WE with KB or Execs with extra attacks.

I basically stopped playing small COK units. I prefer to field 12-14 knights. Very difficult for the opponent player to get VP from destroying such large unit.

I'll have 12 COK/Full command + BSB with hydra banner + DL for my next tourney! :twisted:

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Mon Nov 22, 2010 11:40 am
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Malekith's Best Friend
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I think people are forgetting that a unit of Cold One Knights, no matter the size, can be one of the most dangerous units on the table hands down. Cold One Knights joined with your BSB carrying the Hydra banner cut any unit in half. Add in a Cauldron of Blood for an extra attack to the riders and they become one of those ugly units no one wants to even talk about! Steadfast as surely hurt them but we're Dark Elves and we learned looooong ago that the true power of Warhammer comes from combined charges. Throw in a dirt-cheap spear block for some ranks and you've got a dead unit of something in front of you. Daemon units and undead units HATE this build.

But the original poster is correct, 5 vanilla knights on their own is only useful when used in a combined charge or warmachine hunting. Then again 5 knights is the bare minimum the rules even allow and is hardly recommended. That'd be like fielding the bare minimum of 10 Spearmen and wondering why they're not very good either...


Mon Nov 22, 2010 2:19 pm
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Beastmaster

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Small units still make good ringbearers, fast, good save, ITP and fighty!


Mon Nov 22, 2010 2:34 pm
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Black Guard
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FOr warmachine hunting, 6DR in two ranks of 3 will do that job better!

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Mon Nov 22, 2010 2:36 pm
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Damn, I was planning on running two units of 5 vanilla Knights in my 1500 pts list. This thread has made me question that now.

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Mon Nov 22, 2010 2:40 pm
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Executioner
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It all depends on how they're used Guinea, I certainly like the idea of double vanilla CoK units.

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Jacks -Shade
- WS 5 - - S 3 - - T 2 - - D 6 - - I 5 -

Equipment
Short Sword, MC Long Sword*, Dagger, RxB & RHB [20/10] MC Shade Cloak, 4 Throwing Daggers, 3x Healing Vials, 451C, [3]Dark Venom, [4]Unseen Chains, Food, Dark Steed- Spike

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Mon Nov 22, 2010 3:13 pm
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Instead of two units of 5, make a unit of 10. Much more resilient!

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Mon Nov 22, 2010 3:19 pm
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Executioner
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Less flexibility, less deployment, less tactical options, either all goes stupid, or none, less influence over the board.

But then again, it does have its merits. I personally like having more flexibility with target choices over point and charge at one thing only.

It's why I've opted to split my group of 20 RxB into two groups of 10 now, so they can shoot at different things where they can.

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What's mine is mine, What's yours is mine.
Now that we understand each other, lets get down to business.

Jacks -Shade
- WS 5 - - S 3 - - T 2 - - D 6 - - I 5 -

Equipment
Short Sword, MC Long Sword*, Dagger, RxB & RHB [20/10] MC Shade Cloak, 4 Throwing Daggers, 3x Healing Vials, 451C, [3]Dark Venom, [4]Unseen Chains, Food, Dark Steed- Spike

Skills
Basic Stealth, Awareness, TWF, Suithenlu Khythan, Ride

Magic Item
Eye of the Jabberwock

*Magical properties possibly imbued


Tue Nov 23, 2010 1:20 am
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Assassin

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One use I've found that is very useful is for hunting those high toughness monsters that can otherwise chew through infantry. My current army uses a unit of 6 CoK with musician, standard and Banner of Eternal Flame. This unit is perfect for taking out things like giants, abominations, or even other hydras. They should cause about 4 wounds to any of those 3 targets meaning you only need to do one or two wounds before combat to insure they go down immediately. That's without use of the CoB, with it and you are practically guaranteed to finish them in a single round. To go monster hunting make sure you go 3x2 to get all 6 rider attacks for maximum effect.

The unit is also good for light infantry, stuff that shouldn't really do any damage to them, or things where you just need a combat multiplier and some extra wounds. Very versatile unit and not too expensive at about 200 points. I recommend them both with and without a CoB although they are obviously better with one.


Tue Nov 23, 2010 1:57 am
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@Meteor.
I agree with your comments, but with 7th ed rules. Not anymore with new ones.
Example 1: As long as BSB is around, stupidity is not such a problem anymore with 8th edition rules.
Example 2: 10 xbw are easy to kill give away VP. Furthermore, they can inflict enough damages to these large units we see these days. Who are you going to shoot with 20 bolts S3?
5-6 COK and 10 rbx are good units if you play at 1,500pts. But if you play 2500 or above, they won't be effective at all against those large sized infantry units you'll face.

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Thu Nov 25, 2010 10:39 am
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To be honest I rarely see any target that can be killed by 10 RXBmen alone as people take less fast cav and skirmishers these days thus see no need to split RXBmen. In my opinion having them as one big block of 20 itself makes my opponents think twice about charging them thus they opt to go after my other units who happen to be much more resilient. With that being said my RXBmen are barely touched giving them more chances to shoot. An added fact is that I don't like giving 100+ points of free VP if my opponent happens to have big nasties that make short work of 10 man elves. I've held a Bloodthirster and 9 man Grail Knight charges with RXBmen of 20's, something a 10 man would never be able to do. Yes the point is not to get them into combat but there are armies that no matter what you do will get to your lines no matter what.

Now back to the topic. 5 vanilla COKs were used a lot during 7th edition still with the occasional COB blessing of course. But with the new rules of Steadfast, supporting attacks and VP, I see medium to large units of COK's to be more viable. The moment 8th edition came out and people started saying cavalry sucks I wanted to prove that 10+ COK's are the way to go. What you have is 10-11 S6 WS5, I6 knights that have hatred, ITP and cause fear on top of 2+ ward save and that is without COB and banners. Sure my unit is 397 points but how would you exactly deal with it upfront? It normally has 2+ AS, 5+ from the COB and will never panic. At initiative 6 I will pass Pit of Shades, Purple Suns, at S4 I will most likely pass Dwellers From Bellow and Black Horror. Either my BSB or general is always 12" away so I have ld 10 most of the time if not always that is re-rolls. Also I play 2k to 2500 and who cares about large sized infantry. Why would you commit your COK on that unit when there are better targets like his own Knights and monsters. I would then also have Spearmen, Corsairs and the likes for that.

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Fri Nov 26, 2010 1:04 am
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Corsair

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phierlihy wrote:
I think people are forgetting that a unit of Cold One Knights, no matter the size, can be one of the most dangerous units on the table hands down. Cold One Knights joined with your BSB carrying the Hydra banner cut any unit in half. Add in a Cauldron of Blood for an extra attack to the riders and they become one of those ugly units no one wants to even talk about! Steadfast as surely hurt them ...


Actually, it's very little that's steadfast from such a charge. Most things are dead...


Fri Nov 26, 2010 8:28 am
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Executioner
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It's not much of an R&F unit if it loses steadfast in the face of 15 WS5 S6 attacks in one round.

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Now that we understand each other, lets get down to business.

Jacks -Shade
- WS 5 - - S 3 - - T 2 - - D 6 - - I 5 -

Equipment
Short Sword, MC Long Sword*, Dagger, RxB & RHB [20/10] MC Shade Cloak, 4 Throwing Daggers, 3x Healing Vials, 451C, [3]Dark Venom, [4]Unseen Chains, Food, Dark Steed- Spike

Skills
Basic Stealth, Awareness, TWF, Suithenlu Khythan, Ride

Magic Item
Eye of the Jabberwock

*Magical properties possibly imbued


Fri Nov 26, 2010 10:51 am
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Dark Rider
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15?

A 10 man CoK with champion, BSB with hydra banner and CoB packs:

18 WS5 S6
5 WS6 S6
(total of 23 S6)
and another 10 WS3 S4 attacks from the cold ones.

that's a whooping 33 attacks, of which 23 is hatred so you should end up doing about 17-20 wounds with almost no armor saves.

Most things are dead after that :)
ofc goblins/skavenslaves etc. will still be steadfast but those guys should be charged by WE with +1A...These CoK guys walks through chaos warriors with just the same effect and they probably won't be steadfast after loosing 20 models.

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Fri Nov 26, 2010 10:58 am
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Noble
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I think that Cold ones are looking like our best special choice in the current edition. Yes, our infantry deal it well, but they also really suffer from the retribution. CoKs can do amazing damage on the charge and take little damage in return, and thanks to their S4 and high WS they can also continually deal desent damage the following rounds.

10 CoKs with FC, Ring of Hotek and Gleaming Pennant / Standard of Dicipline = 340/350 points


It is probably a good standard build, and a nice medium power unit that can do well both with and without a cauldron blessing.


Fri Nov 26, 2010 11:34 am
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Dark Rider
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I agree that it's one of our best special choices, however I beleive all our special choices are great so it's damn hard.

As with everything with DE we have highly specialised units that are extremly good at one thing but facing the wrong enemy they die in droves.

I find CoK most useful when combined with SSS Corsairs in the army.
And I find WE very good when using Rxb's DR core.

I'm a bit curious why not use the St. of H. G. Auere?
I must say it's the most outstanding banner of all with the new 8th buff with ASF (combined with the extreme I of the CoK that is usually equal to any enemy character you are facing). The re-roll for 2nd turn of combat makes a huge difference, and now you usually don't break a unit on the charge and count on a second round of combat.

Going on a tournament next week with a 10 man strong CoK unit (no cauldron though) and we'll see how it preforms.

My plan is then to try out an army with a 10 man BSB unit combined with a 5 man unit for flanking/monster hunting/whatever I see fit :D
And I'll probably buy another package of the new CoK (since they look so damn good) and then I can try out a 10+10+5 army :twisted:

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Fri Nov 26, 2010 12:04 pm
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Executioner
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Truant wrote:
15?

A 10 man CoK with champion, BSB with hydra banner and CoB packs:

18 WS5 S6
5 WS6 S6
(total of 23 S6)
and another 10 WS3 S4 attacks from the cold ones.

that's a whooping 33 attacks, of which 23 is hatred so you should end up doing about 17-20 wounds with almost no armor saves.

Most things are dead after that :)
ofc goblins/skavenslaves etc. will still be steadfast but those guys should be charged by WE with +1A...These CoK guys walks through chaos warriors with just the same effect and they probably won't be steadfast after loosing 20 models.


That's assuming we have the best case scenario. And like you said in the above post, you usually no longer break someone in the first round anymore, especially when you only have ONE rank, and assuming you lose no models in return. That said CoK unit is now being backed up by a bucket load of things, making the unit no longer a mere 135- 162pt vanilla unit, thus, defeats the purpose of it being a small cheap vanilla unit.

If you're putting in a Master BSB with Hydra banner into the unit, I'd rather trade that one lone model off for another 5 CoKs to add to the vanilla unit, which will achieve the exact same effect, have more bodies thus making the unit more durable, capable of weathering damage and still deliver.

_________________
What's mine is mine, What's yours is mine.
Now that we understand each other, lets get down to business.

Jacks -Shade
- WS 5 - - S 3 - - T 2 - - D 6 - - I 5 -

Equipment
Short Sword, MC Long Sword*, Dagger, RxB & RHB [20/10] MC Shade Cloak, 4 Throwing Daggers, 3x Healing Vials, 451C, [3]Dark Venom, [4]Unseen Chains, Food, Dark Steed- Spike

Skills
Basic Stealth, Awareness, TWF, Suithenlu Khythan, Ride

Magic Item
Eye of the Jabberwock

*Magical properties possibly imbued


Fri Nov 26, 2010 2:26 pm
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Dark Rider
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Meteor wrote:
That's assuming we have the best case scenario. And like you said in the above post, you usually no longer break someone in the first round anymore, especially when you only have ONE rank, and assuming you lose no models in return. That said CoK unit is now being backed up by a bucket load of things, making the unit no longer a mere 135- 162pt vanilla unit, thus, defeats the purpose of it being a small cheap vanilla unit.

If you're putting in a Master BSB with Hydra banner into the unit, I'd rather trade that one lone model off for another 5 CoKs to add to the vanilla unit, which will achieve the exact same effect, have more bodies thus making the unit more durable, capable of weathering damage and still deliver.


I did a bad assumption you ment the earlier post when we took up the big unit.

Mostly since I think there is a general consensus that cavalry nowadays need to be larger than 5 models to be effective.

however after this discussion I really have to try a list with 3 units of 6 CoK.
And see if it's possible to sandwich the enemy (one in each flank).

The small vanilla units struggle to take on units alone and I beleive that the large amount of small units will be more of a problem than benefit (because it's hard to maneuvre with so many units).
And a small unit of course struggle to keep it's punch, you only need 1-2 failed 2+ saves and you've lost most of the units effectiveness.

One more thing we should add is that ppl tend to play 2400/2500pts today.
A lot of ppl say "it's because you want bigger units", however if you only add 300pts to you units in a 2k army and then use 200pts to add "small units" (as shades, harpies DR etc.) the table quickly becomes too crowded to maneuvre efficently. Instead both armies are big enough to cover the normal 6x4' table and you loose a lot of space to maneuvre on.
I'd like to see more 2k.

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Fri Nov 26, 2010 2:49 pm
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