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Shades?! 
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Cold One Knight

Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2009 12:27 pm
Posts: 229
Location: Yorkhire, The True North!
I know lots of people have lots of opinions on shades and that in DRIACH there are several articles on them, but I have to ask the question:

Under 8th Edition, are people getting their points worth from these guys?

I normally play at 3k, which means that a deployment area is "relatively" full, so any chance of putting a unit of shades somewhere useful becomes limited.

Thus, i normally have them deployed in the mid ground where they sit, avoid things and pick off the odd person throughout the game doesnt really warrant their cost.

Last game, during O&G they shot at some cavarly, killed none, moved for two turns, then for the rest of the game managed to kill three orcs and a fanatic! Not exactly a heroic performance but the last few games have been similar. Now that they suck when wielding GW's, i am considering cutting them out of my battle plan altogether, which is a real shame as i love the idea of them.

Regards

D


Sun Nov 21, 2010 7:13 pm
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Corsair

Joined: Sun Aug 02, 2009 9:18 am
Posts: 75
Location: UK
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absolutely worth it shades are awesome in 8th, cant love them enough.

paired with 'the withering' from the shadow lore these guys can pummel enemy infantry units all 6 turns of a game, unlike repeater crossbowmen who in my experience have a 2 turn life expectancy.
Anyone prioritises massed infantry and little else really suffers against shades, the ability to place such a serious shooting threat outside your deployment zone, and move 10" a turn whilst firing every turn is brilliant for dividing your opponents attention, make it so they have to choose whether to turn back and deal with the shades or ignore mounting casualties.

I take 10 at 2000odd points atm, though Id use more if I had the models

However in fairness to your post against O&G I could see them being at their least useful (hard to scout with, because board is full of enemy models, lack of high value low T targets, availability of magic missiles etc)

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Sun Nov 21, 2010 11:17 pm
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Dragon Lord
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I played against a beastman army... my opponent foolishly deployed a bray shaman out of a unit (he wanted him as near to the herdstone shard as possible) but behind a small piece of terrain.

Shades went right in the middle of the table, with line of sight around the terrain
I got turn 1
Shades caused a wound... Lifetaker sorceress finished the job.

Even out in the middle they can have their uses.

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Mon Nov 22, 2010 12:47 am
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Black Guard
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Yes and if you get the Battle for the pass scenerio, there will be lots of room in the back field for shades.

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Mon Nov 22, 2010 12:55 am
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Executioner
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They're really there for psychological effect. When being harassed by two blocks of 5, it gets on your opponent's nerve. They truely shine when, as anch said, you cast withering on a target, 20 shots at BS5 that'll now wound on 4 or 3 with AP really hurts.

They're a useful missile fire screening unit too, though they lack the armour, being skirmishers, it's harder for your opponent to hit them, then they provide a hard cover for what's behind them. Or sit them in a safe forest and they're a nice distraction for enemy missile fire, and are useful march blockers when they're sitting at mid field.

Unlike Harpies, you can give Shades the KB blessing, so they're a nice little 8 attack character hunting unit too. 85 points is fairly expendable when there's nothing else for them to hunt, at WS5 with rerolls, and I6, they'll likely strike first or on par with many characters.

Otherwise they're an extra redirecting or speedbumping unit on top of your Harpies. Starts to head down the expensive side when they're used so expendably, but their options are very diverse.

You can also transport an Assassin in them too, a favourite tactic for the rending star & manbane combo users. I some times transport my Venom Sword Assassin in a unit of Shades, since they're more flexible at moving and deploys after everything else, they're your best unit for getting your Assassin into position for whatever job.

Finally, I tend to find opponents ignore them when they're out of the game, they're forgotten whilst the action happens elsewhere further down the board. In this case, you just denied him 85pts, might not be much, but when victory is only 100pts different now, it's well worth keeping them alive where you can.

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Jacks -Shade
- WS 5 - - S 3 - - T 2 - - D 6 - - I 5 -

Equipment
Short Sword, MC Long Sword*, Dagger, RxB & RHB [20/10] MC Shade Cloak, 4 Throwing Daggers, 3x Healing Vials, 451C, [3]Dark Venom, [4]Unseen Chains, Food, Dark Steed- Spike

Skills
Basic Stealth, Awareness, TWF, Suithenlu Khythan, Ride

Magic Item
Eye of the Jabberwock

*Magical properties possibly imbued


Mon Nov 22, 2010 1:38 am
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Scourge
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I love shades, you can have trouble placing them in big games but then ten shades don't cost very much in big games and will have plenty of targets, removing a rank can mean the difference between winning and losing a combat, and there are usually small units such as warmachines, lone characters, light cavalry and other skirmish/throwaway units which are easily picked off by shades. There are army builds shades will struggle to make a mark on, but I find that they can have so many uses that they rarely can't find a target, and their worth is not always counted in VPs. I usually take 5-10 in most of my lists.

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Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:50 am
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Black Guard

Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2010 10:49 pm
Posts: 263
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Shades can accomplish a lot for very few points. Lots of shots at high BS, quite a few attacks (with AHW) at high WS, supported by either Shadow or Cauldron for hard hitting effects. At 85 points a 5 man unit is easily expendable. Don't expect them to accomplish much on their own, but buffed up they can hit hard.

Not to mention that they're ninja! :D


Mon Nov 22, 2010 12:16 pm
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Noble
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Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2010 10:02 am
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2x5 Shades are pretty mandatory. For their point cost they simply rock!


Mon Nov 22, 2010 6:02 pm
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Cold One Knight

Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2009 12:27 pm
Posts: 229
Location: Yorkhire, The True North!
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Yeah - i love the idea for them and i don't think they are expensive, i just never get my points back!

Maybe i have been unlucky with them, to be fair i always seemed to do well with them in 7th and though its a shame that GW's are not a viable option on them really, this shouldnt effect their overall performance.

My next game is against Empire so though he will have lots of models they are generally low armoured and average toughness so i'm going to give 2 units a go (probably about 7- 10 men each (its a 4k game)) and see how they go again.

Cheers for replys.

D


Mon Nov 22, 2010 6:44 pm
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Executioner
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Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2010 10:57 am
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Location: Hell
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I don't directly get my points back from these units either. Some times I do, but not often, it's usually the subtle things they influence that earns them their keep.

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What's mine is mine, What's yours is mine.
Now that we understand each other, lets get down to business.

Jacks -Shade
- WS 5 - - S 3 - - T 2 - - D 6 - - I 5 -

Equipment
Short Sword, MC Long Sword*, Dagger, RxB & RHB [20/10] MC Shade Cloak, 4 Throwing Daggers, 3x Healing Vials, 451C, [3]Dark Venom, [4]Unseen Chains, Food, Dark Steed- Spike

Skills
Basic Stealth, Awareness, TWF, Suithenlu Khythan, Ride

Magic Item
Eye of the Jabberwock

*Magical properties possibly imbued


Tue Nov 23, 2010 1:12 am
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Dark Rider
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Joined: Mon Jun 10, 2002 6:25 am
Posts: 126
Location: Stockholm,Sweden
Post 
So many people are concerned about "getting their points back".

Why do you stare blindly at this?

1st you are facing empire.
Empire has the most devestating warmachines of all against elves:
Mortars and Rocket battery

both are large tamplate and kills elves like there is no tomorrow.

Now if I take 2 units of 8 shades and the only thing they manage to do the whole fight is taking out 1 mortar and 1 rocket battery they haven't "earned their points"?

since they've killed less points than they are worth, they failed?
absolutely not!
Do you count in how many points you saved by killing the mortar?

Beside they present a psycological problem for the enemy and the fact that he has to deploy his troops so your shades can't get to his warmachines, how many "points" is that worth?
if you outdeploy him you have an advantage.

don't underestimate the psycological effects just because "they don't kill as many points as they cost".

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Tue Nov 23, 2010 8:54 am
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Shade
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Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2004 12:38 pm
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Location: NC, Chapel Hill USA
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Shades are quite regularly my MVP's. At the moment I am taking 3 units of 5 with ahw.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is having a unit of scouts is nice to muck up fast cav and their vanguard move. Just plop down a shade unit 12.1" in front of that pesky fast cav unit and all the sudden that Van guard move they were counting on is shot all to pieces (Vanguard move can't come closer than 12" of enemy). It has been very useful to me on several occasions.

Also, forcing frenzy units (especially those on the flanks-away from BSB/Gen) to roll (and hopefully fail) frenzy charges first turn. When this works it is brilliant. Set your scouts up at the very edge of the frenzy units charge range and in a direction they don't want to go. If they fail the test you will get a free S+S reaction and they will need boxcars (12) to successfully make the charge. This most likely ends in a free round of shooting for you. :>

-Erik

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Tue Nov 23, 2010 4:32 pm
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Malekith's Best Friend
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Khordale - that is dang clever! I'm trying that out in my next game!!


Tue Nov 23, 2010 5:30 pm
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Cold One Knight

Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2009 12:27 pm
Posts: 229
Location: Yorkhire, The True North!
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@ Khordale - i like the idea of shafting my opponents fast cavarly

@ Truant - I'm not obssessed with "getting my points back". What i'm on about is justifying the points they cost. If they, for example destroyed a hellblaster volley gun that was just about to fire at my CoK's then ofc they were worthwhile, even if technically they didnt "earn" there points back.

My point is that for my last games, with 8th edition armies, i find that units tend to be bigger - thus making it harder to panic them or cause enough casualties to even knock a rank off. Fast cavalry is not used as much, thereby taking away as many opportunities to gain easy points and deny my opponent the luxury of having fast cav.

Also, if you read my post, i was saying that recently i have found it impossible to deploy my shades near any war machines. And firing at them now is about as effective as pi**ng in the wind.

psychological effects only work if your opponent bites - the last game i played my opponent simply ignored my shades, knowing that his units were so big and fearsome that i couldn't threaten them in close combat and with toughness 4, 7 shades are not going to kill *that* many from firing.

Dont get my wrong, i like shades and i know they have their uses - i'm more curious about how effective they are now we are in 8th edition, the age of large ranked up units of infantry.

Regards

D


Tue Nov 23, 2010 6:24 pm
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Dark Rider
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Location: Stockholm,Sweden
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Dante: I understand your viewpoint and don't think your not trying.

I agree that the units tends to get bigger, but from my experience that is a good thing for a DE army.

If there is one thing we are good at it's dashing out damage!
but the melee is another topic.

I would suggest you to try this:
deplying your scouts 15" from M4 infantry will force them to do a "11" charge or simply move forward.

Unless your opponent has his units really tight the 10" movement of my shades is usually enough to squeeze through the enemy army and get out of LoS, so I ususally place my shades in the middle of the board and simply walk "through" my enemy's army.

They rarely or "never" get close to the warmachines, but unless the enemy stands still he will have a hell to block my shades from reaching him on turn 3/4 (usually I shoot him turn 2 and charge turn 3).

I don't find a unit of 6 shades to be expensive, not considering how much they can do (flank charges (combined) are underestimated imo, especially when the enemy is down to 3-4 ranks, then I usually kill enough to reduce his hits back at my shades to 2 (or 1) model).

However, when I've tried 3x8 shades they haven't preformed as good because there wasn't enough targets for such a mass of shades.

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Tue Nov 23, 2010 10:00 pm
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Noble
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Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2010 10:02 am
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Location: Denmark
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BTW:

Calculations show that shades have a higher damage output /point than RxBs, and even better: They are always within range!

If the shades REALLY have nothing to do (which I find is VERY rare), in case of the enemy only bringing 3-4 deathstar blocks and nothing else, just let the shades shoot and march block, possibly sacrifice themselves later.

There is always a use for shades!


Wed Nov 24, 2010 7:36 am
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Trainee Warrior
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Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2010 12:29 pm
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[quote]...unlike repeater crossbowmen who in my experience have a 2 turn life expectancy...[/quote]

Your using your crossbowmen wrong then. :lol:
I've got a unit of 20. Last battle they wiped out a whole 50 strong goblin horde in 3 turns. Now that is good.

In all seriousness though. i've never used shades, but I like the idea of taking some to beef my points out. I Don't like the models as well, so I'm going to try and make some out of glade guard, green stuff and bitz. Are they good? And should I get glade guard and convert them?

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Sat Nov 27, 2010 3:28 pm
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Malekith's Best Friend
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Location: Calgary, Alberta
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I think you could get away with making some amazing shades with the new corsair box. The cloaks will need a little love though unless of course you go all out with a feral looking outpost army. Then you could put the scaly cloaks on all of your mini's.

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Mon Nov 29, 2010 4:53 pm
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Location: Santa Barbara, CA
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xFallenx wrote:
I think you could get away with making some amazing shades with the new corsair box. The cloaks will need a little love though unless of course you go all out with a feral looking outpost army. Then you could put the scaly cloaks on all of your mini's.


The trouble here is that the Sea Dragon Cloaks have in-game rules, so throwing them on all your models is misleading to your opponent. Especially since Shades have no armor at all (or only light armor) this could be an issue.

I took the existing Shades and added simple hoods and facemasks to all of them. Very stealthy, very Dark Elf, and it makes them look far better in my opinion than the existing models. Weapon swaps are a good touch too.

I also find Shades to be a perfect home for a Manbane/Rending Star Assassin. Yes, he's quite a point investment, but the Shades become incredibly hard to deal with. They can survive charges from fast cavalry, most fliers and other light units with ease, and their shooting becomes fearsome to virtually everything in the game. With the ASF/Manbane from the Assassin, they're a threat in both shooting and combat, and possibly our most reliable way of dealing with enemy monsters.

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Mon Nov 29, 2010 6:12 pm
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Noble
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Quote:
With the ASF/Manbane from the Assassin, they're a threat in both shooting and combat, and possibly our most reliable way of dealing with enemy monsters.


Apart from Chuck Norris obviously...

Flaming sword of rhuin is SUCH a nice buff spells for a unit of 12 shades + assassin.


Mon Nov 29, 2010 8:03 pm
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Highborn
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I'm using Dark Eldar Wyches for my Shades, with a little conversion work.

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Sun Jul 24, 2011 7:49 pm
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Slave on the Altar

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2010 1:37 pm
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I think I put a bit too many points into this unit of shades. 15 shades (armed with GW) and deployed in a forest near my deployment zone. I also deployed my BSB (with the ASF banner) near them and immediately joined the unit. This unit caused chaos in my opponents BM army. Widdled down units with tremendous shooting and when he was foolish enough to charge them in the forest with infantry, I reformed into 3 ranks of 5 and he lost his steadfast. Couldn't have worked better.


Mon Jul 25, 2011 3:34 am
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Malekith's Personal Guard

Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2010 12:13 am
Posts: 987
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As for using Handbow Corsairs for Shades:

Just use a little greenstuff to cover the scales. It's pretty easy; you're pretty much just smearing a thin layer over the scales with your thumb and using a knife blade to clean up around the edges.

I did one like this and it looks great, much better than the shades I kitbashed out of corsair/warrior parts and leftover empire cloaks.


Mon Jul 25, 2011 4:43 am
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Malekith's Personal Guard

Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2010 2:50 pm
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I like combining them with some slogging Core or something like BG

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Tue Jul 26, 2011 4:14 am
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Malekith's Personal Guard

Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2010 12:13 am
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Greatweapon Shades kinda suck this time around. Since they strike last, they get mangled before they even get to swing.


Wed Jul 27, 2011 1:27 am
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