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Cold ones: A science in brutal force. 
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Corsair

Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2008 1:17 pm
Posts: 76
This is written as a response to another post asking if the time for using «vanilla» units of 5/6 cold ones are over.

Knowing that in my list they often are outperforming even the hydra in terms of impact on the game I must say the answer is a definitive no. And I will try to summarise most of the uses these units contribute to mye army, and possibly make it easier for those who find themselves struggling getting results from their cold ones.

So let us begin. =)


For me the cold one units have a natural place in my list. I play 8ed with a focus on having movement superiority, lots of units, and very few points gathered in a single place.

I feel that there might be useful to see the context of the army that the cold ones operate in, to easier understand why they work so well.

You can now re-roll failed stupidity tests withing the bsb.
This can not be stressed enough, how important it is to include the bsb. Negating stupidity is your number 1 priority when dealing with cold ones of all sorts.

High str units are the ones that normally benefit the most from getting 1 additional attack blessing from the CoB. (cauldron of blood ) Giving 1 aditional attack to units like exes and cok will greatly improve their dmg output while witch elfs and corsairs only will get marginaly better with 1 additional attack. They often have more sucsess with killing blow, or just the wardsave.

So already we have a very good synergy. We want to use cold ones. They “require” a bsb in the army. And they are among the units that benefit the most from the aditional attack that the cualdron of blood can bestow on your units. The Cauldron of Blood so happens to be a great place to put your Battlestandard bearer in order to keep him alive. I like to remind people that the cost of the entire unit is 100 for the cualdron, and 115 for the battlestandard bearer – if the death hag could NOT be upgraded to a bsb the cost of the cualdron would in effect be 200 pts. As it happens we are so fortunate that the bsb can hide among the cauldron crew ;)

It is not obvious that this should be the case, and it is very fortunate for us. We dont need to pay for both a 200 pts cualdron and a 180 ish bsb.

For those who watch Day 9 and play starcraft you will recall him talk about transitions all the time.
Starcraft of course is a RTS, and we play table top games, but nonetheless I find it very useful to think of streamlining your build when making a list. Look for good transitions when putting together your list, and choosing units and theme.

So I put down 2 units of 5 cold one knights on my army sheet. I then put down a Death Hag with the cualdron of blood. No use in giving her any items, only thing I would consider is banner of swiftness to gain 1 inch each round.

This is starting to look rather lengthy, so I shall not dwell to long-- lets continue


We are still a long way from done with our list. Chariots are Great in 8ed. Simply becouse they no longer get demolished by str 7. This is huge, cant really stress it enough.. it is huge. You already have a nice enviroment within your bsb that cold one chariots can thrive. I normally include 2 chariots. They are as I said very very resilient in 8ed.

At the beginning of 8ed I thought that spearmen would get the attack blessing on 2 fighting ranks, and calculated that 17 warriors with full command 117 pts would have a very good dmg vs pts ratio.

Turns out I was mistaken, the blessing only affects the front rank. Turns out its no big issue,
17 warrior units worth 117 pts still is a very good unit. You dont want the shields, but you do want the champion.

I normally field 3 units of these and 2 units of 10 rxb with shields.

3 units of harpies

1 unit of shades with ehw

1 hydra

2 units of 5 witch elfs

The focus of the list is close combat with movement superiority. So you want enough support units of your own to kill all enemy support, and exploit how good harpies are at disrupting vital enemy units.

There are 3 more elements in my list, and thats Gandalf, you shall not pass Dreadlord.
Its a Master on pegasuss, with cloak of hag graef and 2+ ward vs flaming.
And 2 lvl 1s One with metal and the other with fire. One of them gets the black dragon egg, normally the metal mage.


I could go on and on about how good these 2 mages are and all the benefits they have. But just take my word for it, they are very good, and you will almost be able to use all the dice generated by winds of magic. The magic lies within the signature spells ability to be scaled up in casting value.
You dont throw 6 dice for a single d6 magic missile, you throw 6 dice for 3d6.

The fire mage works as a high dmg artillery vs light support units, and most “normal” stuff.
The metal mage on the other hand kills everything in armour. Treemen, hydras and the like also suffer greatly vs metal.

They to have a very good pts vs dmg potensial, and for 200 pts you are always using all your “free” winds of magic dice each turn. You get to roll twice on channeling, and you distribute your wounds.
You get 4 wounds for 200 pts, not bad!... 1 supreme sorceress gets 3 for far mor pts that that.

Dont be afraid of misscast. Throw the dice needed to get the lvl of the spell through. Usually that means I throw at least 6 dice at 2nd lvl metal, and 5 at 3rd lvl fire. Miscast usually just means you lose 1 wound, or your 117 pts warrior unit takes some dmg.



Do you find yourself looking at something of high priority to take out. This often is with the metal mage.. like a unit of knights you want to obliterate- well then you go all the way. Imagine yourself as Rock Lee in Naruto taking of his weights! Let your mage slowly walk out of your unit, and roll them dice, all of them... so fun to do this.. if you roll a good amount on winds of magic, and you just blast your way through all of magic defense with a lvl 1 mage. Odds are she wont even die, and if she does, its still only 100 pts lost.

You want the dragon egg to help fry large horde units.


There are few bolt throwers remaining in the game, compared to last edition. This means that cloak of hag graef is suddenly very good. Remember last edition someone actually already then stating that its actually better then the pendant in most cases flying around. Of course it wont work in hth, but on a pegasuss master it works wonders. After I started bringing my lvl 1s to my gaming group it did not take long before people saw the usefulness of having a cheap metal mage tag along.. Thats why you need to include the 5pts 2+ ward vs fire item.

Gandalf the Dreadlord I see there are exactly similar builds on thise forums as I use.
Here you call him. “the lone guard at the gate” the only difference is that I have soulrender on mine.

He further greatly improves your cold one knights, by adding an additional +1 on your leadership.
And you have now 4 units that normally should be unreliable, and are comparatively cheap because of it, that now deliver the pain almost each game.

He is tailor made in order to be a rock that stops the meat-grinders. Meat-grinders in my world of warhammer is all sorts of big horde ish units like white lions, grave guards, marauders with gw, you know the ones.. they just grind other units to a pulp.. no mather how many you throw at them, they just get eaten alive by the meat-grinders.


I guess one could write pages on how to beat meat-grinders alone, but that will have to be for another time. I just predict you will see fewer and fewer of them in the future because they have some glaring weaknesses.

Back to the vanilla knights!

Give 1 unit a banner and the flaming banner. You will find uses for having flaming in very many matchups, and this is the best place I have found for it.

The beauty with these cold one units is that they with the cualdron blessing should probably be worth something in the 300 pts range based on their dmg output. But they until they charge they are only worth 135 pts (161 with banner) and can be equally usefull doing stuff 135 pts units do.

If your 135 pts cold one knights can be used for getting rid of pesky enemy support units its not a waste. Yes the unit has a much higher potential but that is not to say its wrong to send this unit warmachine hunting, or mage hunting.

8 ed have some added benefits. 3,2 formations is now pretty darn good. Again the lack of many bolt throwers help, you dont want to go 3,2 vs rank penetrating warmachines.
Some benefits from this formation is high dmg output on very little base frontage, so you can have an easier time moving your units, and getting in combocharges.

The way in witch a lethal charge can be combined in this list are numerous.

Lets say you charge with a 3,2 knight unit, followed by a chariot.. followed by another chariot, warhydra, spearmenblock... you see the picture.

Always have harpies ready.. if the target at some point decides to choose flee as a reaction, always have “pushers” ready. By this I mean units that declare charges on already fleeing units in order to make them flee further.. 2 pushers of some kind is often enough to push enemy units of the table edge. The first pusher can easily be a warrior unit behind your cav line, on the first push(17”), and a harpie unit with longer range (22”) for the final push.

Kill enemy heroes.

I find killing enemy bsb and lord lvl mages to be the prime targets in most games.

Not many cheap units can threaten a bsb in a ironguts unit with a tyrrant .. but a 135 pts cold one unit certainly can.

You should always look for enemy heroes in the front rank of units with your cold one units.

The odds for killing heroes with str 6 high ws, hatred, and many attacks are good. If you kill the hero, mission accomplished, and you would not be devastated should the unit later be wiped out.
Often though thats not what happens. 5 cok in 1 single line (not 3,2) with cob blessing will often kill around 8-10 enemy models.. – chances are you will end up winning the combat

This is very important. Yes most have steadfast vs the knights.. but steadfast on lets say ld 8... well you are 1/3 chance away from failing. If you do, you are already at a disadvantage trying to outrun a unit with swiftstride. You cause panic, and you let a unit get behind your lines.. and all this because of 135 pts.


Though what you would expect is for the enemy unit to say put, and that you would see the knights begin to falter in the following turn. Witch elfs are a great follow up, since they are imune to panic, and dont mind beeing charged.

You can move Gandalf into position behind the knights, and line up some hard hitters, like hydra, chariots and the like to create a revenge party.

MONSTER
You use the cok units to kill monsters plain and simple. Give cob blessing and charge.
Same with chariots and the like. Small cok units are great, and far more consistent then lets say cold one chariots.


KILLING SPREE
Often I find that enemy units are just dauntingly large. As I mentioned, you can expect to kill around 8-10 models when charging. Thats quite a lot, and it really helps to get some bulk shaved off those large units of 30/40 ish size. Killing those 10 models is the primary goal, breaking the unit is a potential added benefit. Beeing stuck fighting for some time is likely, as is eventually breaking.
Position other units in the meanwhile.

These ramapage cold one units is a headace for your opponent, becouse they have such a big potential compared to what they actually give up should they loose.

DOMINO
remember to utilize cascading charges. Having many units means setting up cascading charges gets a lot easier. Every unit that flees when you try to set up a cascading charge should be punished by being “pushed”

Remember the order you charge in is important. Dont start the combo charging with your main units. It is only when the receiving unit choose flee that you can actually try and redirect your charge, so never send in your blessed cok first and then a chariot, only to find out they flee from the chariot...

Order is of uttermost importance when having multiple charges!

Blessed cok, and the hydra are your main hitters, and should always be carfully utilized when charging.


Cold one units cant flee. This is almost very important to remember when you have many of these units. You will often need to sacrifice harpies, if you find your knights are in an disadvantage position. Failing stupidity, being stranded after a cobo charge were they were not the last are among a few. The tools at your disposal are as follows:

The cold one units are cheap... so you dont NEED to save them, if you can use their death to get some other advantage.

But often you would like to save your knights if its possible. Setting up harpies as a speedbump into the knights with a real hardhitter like the hydra will often detere a charge charge from ever happening.

If you dont have the hydra around or something equally scary for your oponent to detere him from charging, you might use the harpies to align him away from hitting your knights.

If you should find yourself in a really bad position because you failed stupidity.. most likely to happen outside the re-roll bobble, you might consider blessings like killingblow. Cold one knights like witch elfs have I 6. thats as good or better than most heroes in the game. You run a risk charging into a killingblow unit of knights worth only 135 pts with most kind of heroes.


With high I, it can often be just as usefull to “walk” into opponents as it is to charge them from afar.
Cheap cold one units, 50 pts witch elf units, and even harpies do this very well.

March up and stop 1” away from the target unit.


I think that will have to be enough for today.

Strollinthewoods

Also, fixed your title - Layne.


Tue Jan 11, 2011 12:46 pm
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Very interesting article, I'm a great fan of CoK in all of their various guises and this is an interesting and unusual strategy to use in the very horde-infantry themed 8th, How many points is the army list you use this in context with though? The first concern I have is that there is quite a large amount of points in charaters, 200 in sorceresses, 225 CoB, the peggy dreadlord is over 200, in 2k that is going to be around a third of the army. In larger games of 3k+ I think this strategy will start to struggle as the enemy will have enough points to really shut down those mobile units or be too big for your units to make a mark on, steadfast is your enemy and if you get mired in combat with a list like this, you are in trouble. Overall, nice work, a strategy I definitely want to play a few games with.

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Tue Jan 11, 2011 1:42 pm
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Corsair

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regular armysize is 2400-2500 pts

1 thing that Im going to include for some test games is a unit of 30 warriors, 189 pts so I can reliably know that meatgriders will get no steadfast.

The list is very versatile, and above all, very fun to play with.

I came up with the dreadlord becouse of etc comp, were you cant have 2 hydras. He is expensive, but serves a very important role. Without him you might find youself getting steamrolled very hard by some uber monster unit that you dont have the means to stop.


there is a team tournament, each team with 3 players, 1800 pts tournament coming up soon. And I have just down graded my list to get down to 1800 pts and that will have its first test tomorow. I shall bring my camera and remember to take some pictures.


the 1800 version of the list looks like this:

Gandalf: you shall not pass DreadLord.
coldone, hea, sdc, soulrender, pendant, dragonhelm, crown of command

lvl 1 metal mage, black dragon egg

death hag cualdron of bloood, battle standard bearer

17 warriors full command
30 warriors , st, mus
12 rxb shield

5x cold one knights
5x cold one knights st, flaming banner
2x5 harpies
5 witch elfs
5 shades ehw

1 hydra

1798 pts


I will go up against a warrior of chaos list. I promis to post the resultes should I get stomped to death or not =)

Ever since I got my canon 7d Ive wanted to make a battle report, so its not entirly unlikely I will try and make a battle report out of it.

pretty sure I will miss my chariots in these games though.


Tue Jan 11, 2011 2:10 pm
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I made a lengthy reply to this whole concept in the other thread, but will bring back some of those points here.

When I look at your list, with units that small, I really struggle to see how you can overcome most opponents. The list just seems like it would steadily bleed Victory Points to an opponent, because of small unit sizes. I figured the whole concept of minimum-sized Cold One Knights was interesting, but you appear to be taking the idea of Many Small Units to your entire list, and I just don't reasonably see how that functions well against most 8th edition opponents.

8th edition isn't about Deathstars or non-Deathstars, it's about bigger units generally performing better than smaller ones. Not only do bigger units hit harder and have more staying power, but they're harder to get Victory Points from since you need to wipe out the entire unit. Similarly, you mentioned the danger of spells in your other thread, but bigger units can take more spell casualties but still be effective in combat. Cold One Knights are naturally resistant to most of the spells out there anyway; great characteristics and excellent armor help take care of that, and the Cauldron of Blood and/or some magic resistance helps to take care of the rest. Bigger units let you focus your defense for them.

I feel like it wouldn't be hard to knock out those small Cold One Knight units and render them ineffective, and what do you have left for combat threats once they're dead? Not much.

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Last edited by Tethlis on Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Tue Jan 11, 2011 5:36 pm
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Corsair

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I know how hard its to theory hammer on the nett, so I dont put that much effort into it :D

What I am doing is not something that might emidiatly seem like a logic thing to do in an 8ed sense.

It does work though, and there are very few things in the game that I am acually very afraid of.

The thing though with the dark elf force is that its so versatile. So its great that people can find their own flavor to play with.

I have found that I find warhammer much easier to play now that people have fewer, and nastier units. But thats just because there are more room for me to maneuver now, and easier to read the game.


And while 100 skavenslaves might take some time to kill, you know you will actually get some nice pts in return when you eventually do. I think 4 units of 20 as they were played before in the hands of a good general was much harder to deal with.

Its the same with bigger juicier units, they give away pts when they eventually die.

But you must be focused, and acutally kill them off.

There is not so much more a good general can do with 3 huge units that a total newb cant copy.

That is not to say that huge units are not good though. The only thing that kind of bothers me in 8ed is the tendency to make huge units better than they really are with comping the things that would normally demolish them.

How is things going around the world when it comes to comp?

Are you still free to field 2 hydras?


Tue Jan 11, 2011 6:37 pm
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Strollinthewoods wrote:
How is things going around the world when it comes to comp?

Are you still free to field 2 hydras?


I know many tournaments are not yet implementing comp, because they are waiting to see what develops and they feel that books are more balanced now than they used to be. Lots of game systems are punishing certain magic items (Infernal Puppet, Book of Hoeth) while others are punishing certain playstyles (too many missile troops, too many warmachines) while others are changing the existing rules (Look Out Sir or Ward Saves allowed against Dwellers Below, Final Transmutation, or Pit of Shades/Purple Sun).

The comp varies tremendously based on country and overall gaming atmosphere, but those are the common themes I've seen. Lots of players are still using two Hydras, and many places still frown upon those kinds of unit choices.

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Tue Jan 11, 2011 6:44 pm
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Corsair

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Thats good to hear. Im hoping the game are left alone long enough for it to balance itself out. Reason I ask is this returning focus on how good large units are... while 2 hydras fry large units for breakfast, and are hungry for more.


Personally I dont see any problems either way. I would like to see people get to hydras to work ;) they are actually a lot easier to deal with than last edition, so thats not so stupid as it sounds. Though granted 2 hydras will never be bad.


To be honest I am somewhat uncertain about my 1800 pts list, as I said I think I will greatly miss my chariots becouse they are important force amplifiers in my 2400 list.

I cant bring 2 hydras, otherwise I would skip the dreadlord, as I only truly need him when battling meat-grinders, and thats what I would normally use my hydras for.

2 units of 5 knights might seem "less" than 1 unit of 10, but remember that the dmg output here is the same, and its equally easy or hard to affect either of them.


Tue Jan 11, 2011 7:08 pm
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There are a few older discussions about the changes that Hydras have undergone. There damage output has increased with in-combat breath weapons and Thunderstomp, but they have become a lot more vulnerable also with the Flaming Banner and their low Initiative. They're still a very strong and valuable choice, but now every army can counter them, which I think is a very important thing.

I am definitely not opposed to small Cold One units... There's a lot to be said for having choices that are quick, flexible, cheap and disposable while still hitting hard. The reason I like the larger units, versus the smaller ones, is simply because I like having staying power in multiple rounds of combat. Being able to declare a charge, destroy most of a unit with Strength 6 attacks, and then follow up in the next round with S4 attacks to finish the job is very valuable. Having a larger unit is useful for that, and they suddenly become an effective part of your fixed battle line, just like spearmen or larger units of elite infantry.

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Tue Jan 11, 2011 7:26 pm
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This actually made me put down my paint brush...

First of all there are still uses for small unit of COK but that is the same for ALL Dark Elf units. Dark Riders may be suboptimal and so maybe Executioners, Manticores, Bolt Throwers, they ALL have areas where they will excel and be more useful than others. Now with that out of the way.


The point is, while 5-6 COKS can work, 10-12 does too as well, just in a different context and thus handle differently the same way a handgun is to a shotgun. You can kill with both but you definitely leave a different carcass on the floor.

That is how I personally envisioned a medium sized COK to work back in 7th edition. 2 units of 5-6 COK were common then and with no strike back and supporting attacks, steadfast etc etc. victory points for units with half strength there was no need to form a second rank of COK. Now with the advent of 8th edition were kills are more important than static resolution, COK simply are the fastest hardest hitting unit we can put on the table.


With so many strong spells, warmachines etc etc. You want that speed, you want to keep your unit safe from all that and be where it excels at. Again COK have been proven to be a hard nut to crack, if you tot around a 10 man strong COK unit, you have the confidence and statistics to throw it against what you please without worrying about getting multicharges, and while this may seem "amateur" to most, to be perfectly honest, it plain works. You are spending less effort on all the "maneuvering" of all your units but focus more on setting up good kill zones simply because you have a unit that can be there in the thick of the fighting. In other words, as the saying goes, keep it simple.

This is pretty much the same with Warriors, Black Guard, Harpies, Dark Riders etc etc. Cold Ones can actually stay in combat and win. Now looking from a larger perspective, the current edition has pushed armies into lasting power with sprinkles of warmachines and few elite units out there to do the hammering. Again with the COK, they can be both.

We already know the resilience, the point denial game, the psychological threat, the killing power of Cold One Knights in this edition when fielded as such. Why try to fix what aint broke? 5-6 COK works but lose effectiveness when thinned down albeit more expendable. 10+ COK works even if the lose numbers but cannot be used with reckless abandon because of the point sink. For people like me who put emphasis on precision, speed and constant results game after game against any army, I simply want a unit that will do exactly what I need them to do. I want my Cold One Knights to kill whatever I throw them at by themselves so the rest of my army can focus killing on what the COK can't or shouldn't and by far they have done exactly that.

I don't feel confident in waiting for another turn until my Warriors bring their static resolution against a Bloodletter block when my COK can kill by the dozen and let instability finish the rest of the unit off then overrun into the next unit. I don't feel the need to prolong and wait for coordinated charges against a warmachine army and give them another round of shooting nor do I feel that I should ever hold back against a frail magic heavy army. I want to maximize hatred and get in and out of combat as fast as I can while minimizing the casualties I take. If I throw a bone to my dinos, I don't want them to simply nibble on it, I want it devoured. Again all the fancy maneuvering, I'll leave to my Harpies, Shades, Hydras, quick reforming Crossbowmen. If I want dumb raw power, that's what the COK, Hydras, BG and Witches are for. I try to keep it simple so matter what the game throws at me, I know exactly how my units should behave.

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Wed Jan 12, 2011 1:51 am
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Corsair

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Its somewhat important to remember that my post is a reply to someone who asks if these small units of cok no longer is a viable thing to do.

Then we have this fun little discussion if you should go with a larger unit of coks instead of having 5/6 man units.

That again depends very much on the rest of your army, and your playstyle.


Faced of against the warriors of chaos list today, consisting of the following:

2 units of 50 khorne marauders with fullcomand, and greatweapons.
15 chosen tzeench warrior of chaos unit, with full command and terror banner.
2 warhounds
Hellcanon

bsb on disk
lvl 2

1800 pts

He got +1 T on the warrior unit, and gateway an flickering on the lvl 2.

Game was over in round 4, with only his mage left on the table, dark elf losses 1 unit of harpies, and the lvl 1, totaling at 185 pts in all.


the 135 pts cold one unit charged into the hellcanon in my turn 2, and kept it from shooting the entire game, ending up killing the thing in round 4.


Normal warriors are quite a threath to the marauder units the first turn when they all have hatred.


I did take some pictures so may end up making a short battlreport, but not sure if its worth it with such a one sided game to be honest.


The dreadlord made it hard for big blocks to be able to support each other.

The first marauder unit, lost 25 -7 to the black dragon egg, and 18 to the hydra, the remaining 25 tried to dish it out against 2 units of warriors, each with 15 left, the one with the mage got the 5+ ward, though it did not save her. Lost combat, and was "pushed" of the board in the next round.

The dread lord engaged the warriors to keep them from helping the other marauder unit. 1 unit of harpies sacrificed itself in order to set it up for some serious countercharge.

The plan was to charge in hydra, 2 warrior units, witch elfs, shades, and 2 knights into the marauder unit. I gave the warrior unit that would be in front senter of the marauders 5+ ward.. and it thanked for the effort by rolling 2 on the charge and failing.
The witch elfs needed 5, and also failed the charge.
This left the hydra in the flank alonside the 4 shades, 15 warriors in front (not senter) and the knights in the other flank.

THey killed 20 something marauders, taking 10 warrior casualties, and 3 shades.. won combat and run the unit down.

The 2 knights and hydra went of to help the dreadlord, and soon after killed of the remaining chosen unit.


The gateway was a pain. It did massive damage on the 30 man warrior unit (helping in brining it down to 15 before the fight with the marauders)
It got 12 srt 8 hits of against the hydra, wounding it 9 times, but I save 6(!) with regen.
It also got 11 hits str 5 of against the dreadlord..doing 1 wound.


In this game the small cok units performed well. Keeping the hellcanon in battle was very nice. The small cok units are also no prime targets for the gateway. A larger unit of knights would easily be the nr 1 target for that spell.


Wed Jan 12, 2011 8:25 pm
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darn did something stupid... that is thinking of warhammer before I went to bed :shock:

So Im back in front of the computer trying to type all these warhammer stuff out of my head, so I can sleep.. bet most of you know the feeling.


Anyhow. We have been talking about if you should go with small units, or bigger units of cold ones. They are both good. And although I would choose the small 5 man vanilla units if I was forced to choose, Im starting to think you might be very sucessfull in going for both.

The amount of points spent on cold ones would be about the same in my case, as I have usually fielded 2-3 chariots in my 2500 list. The chariots are great , because of their rock hard nature, and very seldom give up points. Cok on the other hand are faster.. Much faster to be honest.


Happy gaming.


Wed Jan 12, 2011 9:18 pm
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I've been giving this dynamic a lot of thought also. As a tried and true member of MSU in 6th and 7th editions, using multiple armies, the advantages of running Multiple Small Units is apparent to me. The shift to using bigger regiments in 8th edition took some adjustment, and I was naturally skeptical.

For me though, it really just depends on whether you want your Cold One Knights to be a support unit to help your primary combat units, or a primary combat unit to help your support units. Cold One Knights do very well in a large group, with Cauldron and/or character support. Similarly, they do well in small units, where their speed, hitting power and flexibility allows you to throw them into dangerous fights, use them to protect your backfield, sacrifice them as necessary, or hunt the enemy backline and run down fleeing units for Victory Points. All these uses are "valid", and it comes down to personal choice whether you want them to support you, or to form their own regiment.

I myself like Cold One Chariots as a support unit, for many reasons. I like that they're relatively cheap, very durable, only need to be corner-to-corner with an enemy model to fight with full effectiveness (making them great for multiple charges) and they still have the speed to out-charge or run down fast enemies.

Of course, the chariot doesn't hit nearly as hard as a 5 or 6 strong Cold One Unit, and doesn't perform as well over multiple rounds of combat.

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Wed Jan 12, 2011 10:04 pm
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If I were to revert back to using a small unit of COK then I would only include one unit and run it straight up beside a block of Corsairs or Blackguard. The new rules on stupidity really helps as they no longer panic should they be shot. Should you use a small unit of COK in my opinion the best way to put them into a list is making sure you have a hell lot more of threats in it like Hydra's, Witchelves with +1 movement banner, Frenzied Corsairs so you force your opponent to decide which threat he has to prioritize.

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Wed Jan 12, 2011 11:11 pm
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I actually find it odd that Lizzies seem to perform well with blocks of 8 and I seem to need like...12 to send at some of the more solid opponents. I actually tested this started @ 8 then 10, then 12, which turned out to be optimal (FOR ME). DANGED expensive though.

I think 8 is nifty @ 2K though as a BIG block even if I primarily use mediums

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Thu Jan 13, 2011 5:32 am
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Strollinthewoods wrote:
Normal warriors are quite a threath to the marauder units the first turn when they all have hatred.


Not sure how. Mok great weapon warriors win pretty much any fight you can make one on one with them. Cheap dogs should make sure they never fight anything except one-on-one fights. And they're still cheaper per man than warriors with shields or without.

You're chaos opponent made a bit of a boo-boo in his list IMO, though. He got too greedy with all the marauders (if he's gonna persist with 2 units, at least put wulfrik in one and bring them on from a flank). He should have dropped the second unit for knights or extra warriors. Or a chariot. Speed, as you have found, is still useful for taking out those fringe units that can tip the balance, chaos knights can do better than even our knights albeit at a higher price. The chosen would have been better off as normal warriors with halberds and the banner of rage or rapturous std too. A pair of chariots or a unit of knights deployed in front of the hellcannon would have stopped you hunting it with your knights.

Also, gateway is better off targeting the knights rather than rabble like the warriors. Average of 7s7 hits does plenty to a small unit of knights. One hit and they're useless or wiped out. Flickering fire on the hydra or harpies or that sorceress if the opportunity presents. Hellcannon on the deepest infantry block to remove any hope of breaking the marauders steadfast. Then it's just down to the luck of the dice. WoC is in the same position DE were last edition; well played, they have answers for any army out there.

Back to the original topic, I like knights in this edition. But points are tight. So I take a large unit (because it is more likely to achieve that vital breakthrough vs undead or WoC) and a medium sized unit of BG to take out dross that my opponents might use to block my knights/hydra. If I could afford another unit of knights, I probably would, but for most things they would be fighting, I can just use my dark riders.

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Thu Jan 13, 2011 8:55 am
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I agree that even though the initial reaction of 8th has been the death of MSU, I still find the concept useful. IMO what 8th did was to give purpose to the large blocks that look good on the table, but not at the cost of the small ones :)

I like to run my armies around the underestimated Dark Riders and Shades, medium sized witch elf/SSS corsair regiments and a horde of executioners. CoB BSB, and Shadow Sorceress (lvl 2 w. extra spell) for support and then a Dreadlord for coolness and a hydra for kicks.


Thu Jan 13, 2011 9:26 am
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30 attacks from spearmen with hatred- 15+ 7 hits against the marauders
23 hits equals 11, 5 dead.

Full marauder unit: 40 attacks, 20 hits. 17 dead. Now depending on the cualdron you could either do 3-4 more wounds or save 1/3 with wardsave.

The 50 man frenzy marauder unit will win this engagement, but not with much. And here you have more or less all marauders fighting. meaning they simply will not get a much higher dmg output than this. And the spearmen are not far behind at all.

As soon as the maruaduers loose frenzy, loose enough models that it acually efects the number that gets to strike back, or get hit by additional units in unison with the warriors, ..
then they start to have some serious problems.


I did read about a pegasuss mounted dreadlord on these forums somewere the other day. And Ive been so fond of my hag graef master with the 5pts 2+ ward vs fire that Ive been somewhat blind to the fact that I might need another pegasuss model (jikes the morathi models is a pain to file away those legs) or use the model as a dreadlord instead.


Soulrender is very good on the dreadlord, and I have been reluctant to not having any magic weapons on him, just in case of etheral units. That black coach just gets extremly annoying when it turns ethereal and you have nothing that can stop it it close combat anymore. Same goes with wrights of course.

That beeing said I think the black dragon egg would be very nice on the dreadlord. So you could have more mobility with the flame template. When it comes to the pegasuss I do feel that the armour is somewhat of a problem. Not having 1+ armoursave in close combat with 2 handed weapons is a gamble Im not sure is worth it.



2, and even 1 cold one knight are still very usefull in a game. 3 is still a serious threath with cob. So there are no " render the unit useless " really with the vanilla units. It is either alive and doing a good job, or it is completely dead =)


Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:11 am
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Sculla: I am glad you still find uses for dark riders. Personally Im finding 1 shade and 1 harpie unit is more flexible, and have more wounds then a dark rider unit with rxb.

Vanguard move is great. Scouting I think is even better. And the fact that fleeing is something I very seldom do in 8ed, harpies are much better at dying than dark riders.

Less points, and more importantly no panic.


And my cold one vanilla units do what in earlier editions dark riders would .. like sniping mages in units and the like.

Its a pitty, becouse I now have 20 dark riders on the shelf, eagerly awaiting next edition =)


Black guard Im no longer using. Cheap shield less warriors is for me the best infantry we have in this edition. They are exactly that cheap, in an environment were you could easily find yourself removing models in the 12-18 range in a single fell swoop.

Units with 5 witch elfs though is a different matter. They have performed well in pretty much every single game I have played in 8ed.


I know many find good use for sss corsairs, for me its still warriors, and rxb units pretty much all the way.


Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:32 am
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Tethlis wrote:
For me though, it really just depends on whether you want your Cold One Knights to be a support unit to help your primary combat units, or a primary combat unit to help your support units.


I find that that is the core of the question.

I´ve played 8th only once (and was a hardcore msu back in 6th-7th too) but have read the rules and watched several battle reports, and I actually struggle a little with the concept of the big blocks COK. With steadfast, heavy cavalry has more problems to be used as frontal line breakers/primary combat units, as they´re still just 2 ranks, and more often than not still only 1 rank (after just 1-2 casualties). So, frontally, say against a block of 25 empire infantry, they´d have to kill 15 guys with no return casualties to avoid steadfast. If they don´t break them and get countercharged in the flank they´ll get in trouble.

Small support COKs on the flanks of infantry block already engaged in combat on the other hand deal out a lot of pain for few return attacks and give the extra dynamic CR while your infantry ranks deny the enemy steadfast. In 3x2 that should be a quite viable tactic.

So, for me, from a theoretical point of view, steadfast should have shifted COK's role more from primary combat to support.

Another issue is survivability. Yes, each small COK unit is more vulnerable than the big one and can give points away more easily, but template weapons and big "no armour save" spells kill more on the big one.

And I´d like to add another consideration as a counter argument to the tendency of ever fewer bigger blocks (although there really isn´t a return to good msu times). That´s deployment slots. The fewer deployment slots, the bigger the chance the opponent will put his paper in front of our rock. More deployments means outdeploying, which imo is still quite important.

But I must say that, like Strollinthewoods, I don´t like these lists with 3-4 uber units at all. Have seen some BRs with them and find the games horridly boring. What´s the difference of playing 2500 points with 3-4 huge units and playing borderpatrol with 3-4 smaller units?? From the point of view of tactical decisions and manouvering it´s pretty much the same. I mean, points denial gaming? Yawwwwn

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Thu Jan 13, 2011 5:33 pm
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The thing with 8th edition is that combats almost always last multiple rounds, and that's something that players come to expect. Breaking a unit in the first round of combat often happens, but it's not the norm like it was in 6th and 7th edition. Cold One Knights are excellent because they are capable of charging into a combat, killing 2/3 of an enemy unit, and then following up in the next round with a lot of Strength 4 attacks to help finish the job. Their durability, decent hitting power even after they use their lances, high Initiative, and access to magic weapons (on their champion) and effective close combat banners (banner of murder, banner of Hag Graef) really lets them charge into a fight, wrack up a huge body count, and then continue to grind down the opponent. If you include a Dreadlord with Crimson Death or Whip of Agony, he really helps with additional hitting power.

It's also worth keeping in mind that you don't have to charge the Cold One Knights in alone. I have performed combo charges with Cold One Knights, Hydra and Cold One Chariots that have inflicted 30+ wounds in one round of combat and wiped out an entire unit that previously that it was Steadfast and therefore safe. Similarly, a Cold One Knights/Spearmen tag team can generate lots of kills and also overcome Steadfast against most opponents.

So even though we tend to admire cavalry for their first-round hitting power, that doesn't stop them from being strong in other capacities as well. Dark Elves have the numbers and the killing power to overcome or annihilate Steadfast units with relative ease.

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Thu Jan 13, 2011 5:57 pm
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I would say that the key to the strategy of using CoK in units of 5 is multiple charges, yes they hit hard and are well protected, but they won't overcome enemy unit's of significant substance alone, the problem is that CoK often come into play more often in enemy territory than other units, when you get your spearmen into combat, they are often going to be close to your other troops and support. But CoK with their greater manoeuvrability will more often get into fights further away from the battleline and so without support. A unit of ten can go toe to toe with many enemy units, but 5 need to be supported to gain the edge, I think that is one reason to run small units of CoK in a very mobile, MSU style list, if CoK are in the supporting role, then they can quite happily go in a more standard, footslogger list but if CoK are the focus then they need to be backed up by mobile, hard hitting units, which is to say hydras, CoC, obviously several units of CoK, maybe some DR or harpies for fodder and hunting but probably not, and then round it out with your bare minimum of core and some characters. I think such a list would be terrifically fun to play and scary to go against, but below 1.5k you will not really have enough points to invest in enough units to give sufficient support, and above 2k you are starting to face enemies with enough points to spend on those things which will really hold this list up.

I think this style could be quite competitive simply because of the surprise factor, but if you do not have enough material to work with, your opponent has too much to work with, or your opponent is ready and waiting for this list, you will have a very hard time gaining victory. One important factor is to keep things cheap, you will have few enough units as it is, you will have to be very economical to build a good list around this style so going overboard on upgrades will leave you with too few units to use, if outnumbered by enough, you will lose your mobility and be overhwelmed, this style of army must not get stuck, it must stay on the move, or it will be crushed.

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Thu Jan 13, 2011 7:40 pm
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Ive been doing a msu style list the entire 8ed. My most expensive unit was for a long time the cualdron- then hydras at 175, and then 135 for the cok units, and the rest of the army was below 135.

Not giving away points for half the units does not only mean that you "should" go for larger and fewer units. Its equaly usefull the other way around. Before you were constantly bleeding points with small units. Its actually much easier to save a few of a unit than to stop it from ever going below half.

In most games it is just way to easy now to win the "support" fight, when you have
3 harpie units, a dedicated master on pegasuss, shades, lots of chariots, cheap cold one units, cheap witch elf units, and 2 units of rxb, and a lvl 1 fire mage ALL dedicated to do just 1 thing .. win the support war as soon as elfishly possible ( pun intended)

Then you swarm some key units, while still making it more or less impossible for him to "find" any nice targets to focus in on in your list. And having to struggle with harpies around every corner.

I should not think there is any reason for me to tell a druchii forum about the benefits of msu =)

The thing is.. IT HAS NEVER BEEN EASIER.. Maybe others are having trouble with msu style lists in this edition and please share your furstration if you do. But I often feel like you have an army working in a different timespace than most opponents, running in circles around your opponent is a very god way to put it.

I dont invest heavily in magic. Never did like to rely on it. The only reason I now have 2 lvl 1s is because they are so great, and I came up with them only as a means of burning off every single winds of magic dice that should happen to blow my way. I dont have them for defense. you often get enough dice to stop 1 important spell, or you would never stop it in the first place (power stone, insane amounts of dice and IF)
Having a lord lvl mage would EASILY have been the first thing to hunt down in my list, beeing somehing like 3x times more expensice than most units, and probably 2x more than the next on the list (cualdron)



Having no really important units helps a ton in magic defense also. Having so many threats means that often they "defuse a threath" like say killing 3 knights in a 5 cok unit. And then they just cant seem to "afford" to spend the needed effort acutally killing of the entire unit, just because there are so many other units thats its equally important to "defuse" or it will hurt in close combat very soon.


The core of my core units has been 17 man units of warriors without shields amounting to 117 pts. If left untouched they deliver maximum dmg for minimal pts investment.

If they are not left untouched, they cost only 117 pts, and you need to kill every single one before collecting points. Belive me when I say its hard to nail these units, because they will run for it when the time comes. Lots of effort and TIME is spent trying to collect any points at all from these units.


Most people probably know, but I thought I just clarify why I have champions in most of these small warrior units. And that is because of the way champions now totally locks down dragons, and other heroes that can be dragged into a challenge.
Having a 117 pts unit consistently wining the first turn of combat vs things like stardragons is just to fun to miss out on. And then you have a fair fight at having steadfast the turn after.



Still happy gaming fellow druchii.


Just curious what so far in 8ed has been the biggest challenge?

Any build or race that is giving you some real headache?


Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:16 pm
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Quote:
Having a 117 pts unit consistently wining the first turn of combat vs things like stardragons is just to fun to miss out on. And then you have a fair fight at having steadfast the turn after.


Against things like dragons? Are you serious. If you don't have musician all he needs to do is cause 1 wound and the combat is drawn (+1 for wounds, +1 for charging, against your +1 for ranks). Anything more (very likely) and you actually need to roll break test. You're down to 16 models. 4 attacks from the rider, 6 attacks from the dragon, d6 for thunderstomp, 2d6 for breath weapon... you unit is either gone or just lost its stalwart.

But why would a stardragon bother with 117 points of warriors when there are actual threats on the table (like CoKs or cauldron that can't even declare a flee reaction?)

You're assuming everything goes according to plan, but nothing ever goes according to plan. MSU falls apart in this edition very easily. Small units have their uses. multiple small units have multiple uses. But unlike previous editions, if you build your entire army on small units, you will not win against an opponent who knows how to deal with it.

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Thu Jan 13, 2011 11:25 pm
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My one issue with MSU in 8th edition is that you can't grind very well

Strollinthewoods wrote:

Just curious what so far in 8ed has been the biggest challenge?

Any build or race that is giving you some real headache?


My 8th edition experience has gone pretty well so far, so I can't complain too much.

Skaven have the potential to be difficult, mostly because they can make Dark Elf units disappear instantly with one spell or one shot (I recall the time I lost 17 Black Guard to a Doomrocket on Turn 1) while the HPA is a serious threat since it can charge 360 degrees, allows no charge reaction and is capably of 4D6 auto-hitting Strength 6 attacks. Since we are always outnumbered against them, it can be tricky to clear through all their trash in order to get meaningful Victory Points. Terrain and a loaded flank are great when fighting these, but it's easy for things to go wrong quickly.

Warriors of Chaos are another tough matchup. Even a modest unit of Warriors or Chosen just serves as significant Victory Point denial, unless you can really gather a perfect combined charge to go after them. Most Warrior builds aren't too tough, but the extremely competitive ones can be difficult to drop. Frenzied great weapon-wielding Marauders don't yield many VP, but can easily tear through most Toughness 3 units, and direct hits from the Hellcannon can dispatch Cauldrons and Hydras with decent luck. Chaos Knights do a wonderful job patrolling flanks. A unit of 3+ Ward Chosen is virtually untouchable. In this mathcup, hunting support units is even more important, because the big infantry blocks are hard to engage and kill.

Dark Elves are nasty too ;) . I ran my list versus a dual Hydra, 10 COK/Dreadlord, Level 4 setup with quite a bit of shooting (20 handbow corsairs, 20 crossbowmen, 6 Shades/Rending Star Assassin, two bolt throwers, Dark Magic.)

I pulled out the win, but not by much, and I was impressed by how well my opponent's shooting functioned. My crossbows rarely kill very much, but when dice roll well for Dark Elf shooting, it can really be decisive.

One army I would NOT want to fight are my own Wood Elves. I know they have been labeled "bad" in this edition, but they're stronger now than they have been for practically all of 7th edition. A Spellweaver with Beasts or Life, a Treeman Ancient with Netlings (you can JUST fit both into a 2500 point list) plus 14-strong Dryad units, small mobile units of Glade Guard, small mobile units of Scouts, Treekin, Treemen and Great Eagles make for a great force.

The Glade Guard keep up tremendous pressure, and the ability to run 5x2, with quick reform, shoot in two ranks, running around the table firing with complete accuracy with Strength 4 at short range makes them unbelievable.

Dryads are great as well. Noone seems to realize they have Initiative 6, until they get shredded by piles of Strength 4 attacks. Fear causing, Immune to Psych, Ward Save, all for cheap... Very good purchase.

Treekin are probably the best mid-size monster in the game. Superior base stats, incredible Initiative for a monster their size, and superior protection.

Treemen can be vulnerable, but if you wade them into a big Steadfast unit and have a friendly battle standard bearer nearby, they can shut down an entire enemy advance and tarpit it all game (especially with Lifebloom restoring wounds) while the rest of the Wood Elf army wins the support war.

On topic:
I only ran my Cold One Knights versus some of these opponents. Against the WoC, the Cold One Knights were easily able to destroy Chaos Knights with a bit of fancy maneuvering and Cauldron buffs, and are amazing for quickly getting to Hellcannons in the backfield or rear/flank charging Warriors.

Against the Dark Elves, the Cold One Knights accounted for both Hydras, wounding one in an initial charge and finishing it off, then taking a charge from the other and winning after several rounds of combat.

Either way, having the extra weight of numbers for a unit of 10 models really helped. The attacks from the second rank really helped to generate additional killing power across a small frontage.

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Thu Jan 13, 2011 11:42 pm
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Yes im serious. As things now strike in initiative order and you can only kill a champion once in a challenge things like dragons and the like are not doing so well against units with champions. There are mainly two reasons for that.

1 you can only kill the champion the first round of combat, and he can now always challenge, even if the dragon strikes in the rear and he is in the front. Dont matter, he can always challenge, dragon lord cant refuse.

This means that the unit will have steadfast no matter how well the dragonlord ends up doing in the challenge, this is great, you stop the momentum of such a powerful unit.

2. Most lords have 4 attacks. Meaning they should get around 3 hits and anything from 1-3 wounds is very likely. If you are very unlucky and score 1 or 2 wounds with your lord, you are very unfortunate indeed, because your dragon fluffy will not be able to contribute to the overkill.

No dragon attacks, no breath in combat, and no thunderstomp.

And you are at great risk that you might end up loosing to that musician. The warrior unit having 3 in combat res + musician.


More than the improved accuracy of warmachines "this" is what stops me from ever bringing a dragon to the table in 8ed.


In earlier editions dragon riders would charge these small warrior units, and they would go straight through and cause all sorts of disorder, and problems.

For 6 pts you make it a huge gamble for dragons and heroes of most kinds to charge


Should be said that you surly dont see many dragons around. But I do find heroes from time to time were I feel very safe knowing they cant do much on their own.


Thu Jan 13, 2011 11:52 pm
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