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Hellpit Abomination - How do you deal with them? 
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Noble
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Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 7:22 am
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I have sought long and hard for the answer to hell pits and I do believe I have finally found the answer.
1 as posted earlier shadow magic and shoot the crap out of it.
2 when you cant bank on shadow I use cold one knights with flaming banner.
3 working with a list that has black guard with flaming banner.
4 been toying with idea of 42 spear elves with flaming banner.
5 cold one knights with flaming banner and unit champ with life taker to be "the fire starter"

Any of those 5 ways will work just fine and give you a unit that is very useful against anything else you may go up against. That is my main point, I have been trying to find a unit that not only would be good against other armies but at the same time would have flaming attacks. Too many unit builds become overly specialized in regen hunting. Then when there is no regen they are mainly useless or delegated to sitting back denying points. These builds I have listed can all do a job and hunt regen.

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Mon Jan 24, 2011 6:54 am
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I faced a HPA in a tourney lately. And I killed it in one round of combat with my WE + flaming banner.

This combo, in my humble opinion, has the best price/value because:
- AP banner fits better with BG
- CoK has better option than flaming attacks (ASF banner for example...)

25-30 spearmen or 20 WE with flaming banner will easily take out this HPA.

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Mon Jan 24, 2011 7:56 am
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MyrkrDreki wrote:
PjEOs, would u choose to add that unit in a tournament just for that HPA I wonder? And btw, the potion of str cost 30 point, so you must use a master or lord in your unit then?


Hi there,

I will seek to include a unit in my list with the sole purpose of hunting HPAs/Hydras. In toruneys, you want to win most battles and if you do so, you'll end up facing some of the top armies out there (WoC/Skaven/DEs/...) and if you can't counter a HPA/Hydra, you have very few posibilities of winning that game (unless you are far, far better player than your opponent).

Yes, I will definitely work in at least 1 unit for regen hunting, and if it can do something else if there's no regen target, all the better.


Mon Jan 24, 2011 11:09 am
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Trainee Warrior

Joined: Thu Jul 22, 2010 12:58 pm
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Babnik is correct. To effectively kill the HPA take the Flaming banner on a block of spears or witch elves. It is cost effective and frankly, the flaming banner should be in just about every list if you play tourneys or blind match ups. My spears always run with the flaming banner. I have used others, but its the best for the points. As he said earlier the BG have the banner of murder and COK are far better suited for the ASF banner.


Mon Jan 24, 2011 3:47 pm
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Initial thoughts:

-Shades + Rending Star assassin was good in 7th, and now I'm not so sure. I actually started taking this combination in 7th edition specifically because it was so good versus the HPA. In one game, they actually killed a Hell Pit three times (killed it once, it came back to life, killed it again, it came back to life again, they killed it again.) This combination took a big hit in 8th, because it can no longer stand-and-shoot against the HPA's movement, and Thunderstomp + Impact Hits means that the unit will almost certainly be wiped out if they don't kill the HPA completely.

-I never think that attacking the HPA in combat is a good idea, unless you know you'll be hitting first and have overwhelming odds in your favor. This rules out the Hydra; Initiative 2 just doens't cut it versus the strong Initiative of the HPA. It's hard to calculate combats against the HPA because of its random attack modes, so I simply assume it's going to do its absolute max (30 Strength 6 Attacks) and use that as my base point for what the HPA can achieve. Obviously, odds are good it won't do anything close to that, but it's really important not to underestimate what this thing is capable. It has SO many attacks.

-Every game I've played against Skaven, I have committed myself to killing the HPA from Turn 1. In games where I failed to do so, it easily won the game for the Skaven player. I would encourage anyone fighting Skaven to make HPA hunting a big priority.

Crossbow fire or magic to weaken it, and a strong hammer charge to finish it. You never want to charge the HPA at full wounds though; causing six wounds against Toughness 5, with or without Regen, is a very risky proposition. It's better to deplete a few wounds first before close combat starts; it might seem like overkill, but the HPA's dangerous enough to justify it.

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Mon Jan 24, 2011 6:16 pm
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Hi there,

I personally would never try to knock some wounds off the HPA with shooting unless I have a Rending Stars Assassin. Just because trying to maximize shooting involves staying back waiting for the HPA and I think this is a big mistake when facing Skaven, mho. If you sit back to shoot the whole Skaven army will position to rip your army appart.You've got to move forward, limiting his maneouvrability and forcing him into combat. There are only two units than can beat us in CC: Plague Furnace and the HPA. Rushing forward helps ensure you'll fight each unit in your own terms.

So being pretty sure about taking it down in CC, I think that 5 CoK w/ BoEF and Potion of Strength will take short work of it and they come in at the cost of 187 points. If I need to cut down points, 5 CoKs w/ BoEF come in at 161 points and wit hsome CoB buffing they can get the job done too. We're talking about 8 attacks (10 if in a flank) that hit on a rerollable 3+ and wound on 3+, so 4 wounds more or less. Then you loose the CoKs and your PoK lord can finish it off.

WEs can get the job done but need to be in high numbers to success and that makes it a poor choice, mho.

I'm also considering Warriors w/ BoEF as some proposed. 30 Warriors are strong enough to remain Steadfast for a couple rounds while dealing 3-4 wounds to the HPA. Also they allow to hex the HPA. A -1T will definitely dye to 30 Warriors. Lowering its S by D3 and granting 5+WS also enables Warriors to last a lot more longer, therefore making possible for them to actually finish off the HPA. Eventually you can grant them Mind Razor for autowin.

Warriors seem to be a good option on the paper. Also, Warriors are core troops so no need to work in a specific hunting unit and they will also fulfill their role as tarpit in any other games. This specially suits me since I'm running 2 big blocks of Warriors, one for the SSorc and the other one as tarpit. Also I'm used to working with flamming attacks Warriors since I use the Assassin with them for chasing Treeman/HPA/Hydras etc...so this would just cost me no points. Only problem is reaching the HPA with Warriors...XD

So, I'll be trying with Warriors in the next games and see if it works. I don't really mind not chasing the HPA because if it trys to dodge my unit, my Harpies/DRs will redirect it away and away and can possibly keep it out of the game.

Curious how the more I write, the easier I find answers for my own questions...XD


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Mon Jan 24, 2011 8:47 pm
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enfeeble will only reduce the st of thunder stomp and impact hits as the special attacks specifically state they are at st 6. which lost me a game one time so beware.


Mon Jan 24, 2011 9:34 pm
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Uh, good to know about that, thanks for the warning :)


Mon Jan 24, 2011 9:41 pm
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PjEOs wrote:
Hi there,

I personally would never try to knock some wounds off the HPA with shooting unless I have a Rending Stars Assassin. Just because trying to maximize shooting involves staying back waiting for the HPA and I think this is a big mistake when facing Skaven, mho. If you sit back to shoot the whole Skaven army will position to rip your army appart.You've got to move forward, limiting his maneouvrability and forcing him into combat. There are only two units than can beat us in CC: Plague Furnace and the HPA. Rushing forward helps ensure you'll fight each unit in your own terms.


Speaking purely from experience, running forward to engage Skaven simply means you're dashing into the teeth of their short-range shooting. I don't think you're necessarily giving enough credit to just how many troops they have, and how quickly they move. They are going to be coming forward anyway, and their ability to redeploy their existing troops is limited anyway, so taking a couple turns to set up an ideal HPA solution has worked very well for me in the past. I'm not saying stand around idle, but I am saying that you should put shooting to good use because fighting an HPA at full wounds is really too risky.

PjEOs wrote:
So being pretty sure about taking it down in CC, I think that 5 CoK w/ BoEF and Potion of Strength will take short work of it and they come in at the cost of 187 points. If I need to cut down points, 5 CoKs w/ BoEF come in at 161 points and wit hsome CoB buffing they can get the job done too. We're talking about 8 attacks (10 if in a flank) that hit on a rerollable 3+ and wound on 3+, so 4 wounds more or less. Then you loose the CoKs and your PoK lord can finish it off.


There's no guarantee you're the one getting the charge on the HPA. It has random movement, and the unit it charges isn't allowed a charge reaction, so you're putting all your hopes on your one Cold One Knight unit getting the charge and then not screwing up the 3+ to-wound rolls you'll be making. Not to mention that the Skaven player will probably be trying to suppress those Cold One Knights, since a smart Skaven player will know exactly what those Cold One Knights have and throw a unit of Slaves in their way. Skaven are the masters of fodder, so anything that actually looks like a threat to the HPA might end up tarpitted.

By directing some shooting at the HPA, you're creating leniency for yourself. Since the HPA is so unpredictable, both in its attack modes and its movement, being able to soften it up goes a long way towards making it easier to fight.

PjEOs wrote:
I'm also considering Warriors w/ BoEF as some proposed. 30 Warriors are strong enough to remain Steadfast for a couple rounds while dealing 3-4 wounds to the HPA. Also they allow to hex the HPA. A -1T will definitely dye to 30 Warriors. Lowering its S by D3 and granting 5+WS also enables Warriors to last a lot more longer, therefore making possible for them to actually finish off the HPA. Eventually you can grant them Mind Razor for autowin.


I don't think a Skaven player will really let you follow that plan easily. I think you need to give your opponent considerably more credit. Yes, a huge pile of Flaming spearmen will beat an HPA over time. However, I find I can rarely afford to use my spearmen for anything other than trying to control the massive swarms of clanrats and slaves overwhelming my lines. If you take an HPA charge, you're probably taking a massive slave/Clanrat/Stormvermin charge too, which means you'll probably lose Steadfast. If the HPA outruns the Skaven regiments, the Skaven opponent will probably aim it at something that's more vulnerable and valuable than enemy Core fodder.

Now, I'm not saying your solutions won't work, but I AM saying that there are a lot of options the Skaven player has to counter you, and that your approaches would be more reliable with a couple turns of support shooting to carve some wounds off the HPA before combat ;)

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Mon Jan 24, 2011 11:18 pm
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what happens if you just kill the handler? just a normal Monster React roll? The Skav in our area was ecstatic for the model release because he never used one before. Now I have to choose between the Wheel, the HPA or the horrible throngs of DEATH followed by a mage and jezzails or globs -.-

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Tue Jan 25, 2011 1:34 am
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L1qw1d wrote:
what happens if you just kill the handler? just a normal Monster React roll? The Skav in our area was ecstatic for the model release because he never used one before. Now I have to choose between the Wheel, the HPA or the horrible throngs of DEATH followed by a mage and jezzails or globs -.-


Are you referring to the HPA? Because it doesn't have handlers, unlike the Rat Ogres and Giant Rats. Apparently, it has the brains to know what to kill and what not to kill without any external guidance ;)

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Tue Jan 25, 2011 1:39 am
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oh i thought it had someone with it. Burn the sucker, leave a solo/ small unit after battle where it died so it can't respawn, and pray you used a LOT of fire spells on it lol Kindleflame becomes a GREAT friend with something that is like that. "you came back? ok burn more. back again?? buuuuurrrrnnn more! Oh cmon, it's round 5. BURN ALREADY!!!"

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Tue Jan 25, 2011 1:49 am
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Hi there,

@L1qw1d:
If the HPA takes at least 1 fire wound in the game, it looses the ability to respawn ;)

@Tethlis:

Hi there, sure skaven opponents can actually see my flamming units coming, but it is very difficult for him to control the HPA because of its movement rules. Once the HPA has moved, it is actually easy to control it. Due to its own rules, the HPA must first pivot and then move straight 3D6 inches.

So, place harpies or DRs in it's flank, 1 inch away from it, and the HPA cannot pivot and has no other choice but to rush forward in the same direction it was moving. Make sure you set another harpie/DR unit to redirect any possible infantry that may charge the first unit. And then the HPA has no other coice but to keep moving in that direction. It is now predictable and you can prepare to charge it.

If it was moving just forward to our lines, it will keep to do so and we can face it with troops ofour choice. If it was moving to avoid something, it is easier to set a harpy unit in it's flank and a lot harder for his troops to remove that harpy unit and it will keep moving in that direction.

Anyway, this is all theoretical and I'm yet to test it, but seems like an easy tactic and makes a lot easier that my Warriors can actually catch it.

Your thoughts?


Tue Jan 25, 2011 9:07 am
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I've had the good fortune of never having to face an HPA, but based on what I've read here and the info I could come up with on GW's site, in trying to kill the HPA it is I4 T5 with 6 wounds and the only save it has is regeneration? Flaming is thus pretty much a given necessity. Assuming you are hitting from the front you have 60mm of base to contact with, meaning 5 of our infantry models or 4 cavalry models.

CoK: will get 4 attacks per rank +1 for champions plus the extras for cold ones, assuming the unit is in two ranks with a champion and the flaming banner on the charge that is 9 attacks, 8 will hit after hatred, 5 should wound allowing no saves. The cold ones will then attack and get 2-3 hits, 1 might wound. so overall with your CoK you can expect a total of 4-6 wounds under the ideal circumstances, however, this entirely relies on getting the charge which is a very iffy prospect against 3D6 random movement, you have the advantage, but that HPA could get you if it rolled well enough and if it charges you the CoK are finished, also, the skaven will hurl alot of their crazy shooting at the CoK unit and the abomination will try to steer clear of them, overall CoK are a reasonable unit to use, but will rely on good positioning on your part and quite a bit of luck, more than I am really comfortable with for a consistent way of bringing down that monster each time I face it. Also, one query, Geist and PjEO, may I ask how you are taking 30 point magic items (potion of strength and lifetaker) on CoK champs which can only carry 25 point items, is it an Errata or something I missed or just a mistake?

Witch Elves: are more likely than the CoK to be charged but still have a slight advantage over the HPA, bring an extra rank or two to survive the impact hits. 15 Witches with champ and flaming (as long as 10 are left to strike the HPA after impact it doesn't matter how many you take really) you will get 21 attacks. After the first round of hits you should have 3 poisons, 11 hits, after the hatred re-rolls you should have a total of 4 poisons, 14 hits. Of the 14 hits you should get two 6s meaning two more wounds, none of these allow saves dealing a likely total of 6 wounds. This option I find is more likely to be successful because the witch elves will not be seen as such a threat as the CoK, if the HPA sees Cold ones marching towards it it knows it is in trouble, but a reasonably small unit of witches is much more inconspicuous and will not draw as much attention.

Otherwise a fire wizard can hurl fireballs and augment RXBs with the flaming sword of Rhuin, which will mean the RXBs wound on a roll of 5 and stops the HPA from regenerating requiring an average of 18 hits to kill the thing outright.

Overall I prefer the witches option, but this is all theory-hammer and math-hammer so take it all with a pinch of salt, and it doesn't take into account rolling below average, I would advise trying to take it down to at least 4 wounds if you want to be almost certain of killing it in combat. I have not including any subsequent rounds of combat because I don't know what the HPA's special attacks are like, but from what I've heard, they can be nasty, and I doubt you will have much of a unit left after them.

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Last edited by Malus99 on Tue Jan 25, 2011 6:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Tue Jan 25, 2011 9:25 am
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actually its T5 but 6 wounds, and i would also like to note that the cold ones probably won't be able to strike as a helpitt can easily destroy a unit of knights, having st6 and 1 attack that says every model in base contact recieves a st6 hit no as allowed, then he can also do 3D6 st6 attacks, or I for every model in BtB, if failed a st 6 hit (not sure if it allowes as) and 2d6 st6 hits on the unit. that will definatly reduce the attacks from the cold ones.

also manbane on the hag means 4 attacks hitting on 3's with reroll is 3 hits and wounding on threes is 2 wounds, thats pretty nice for 1 model supported by another 17 poisioned attacks, which would do 2-3 poisioned and about 1-0 after re-rolls. and then your hitting attacks would do 1-2 wounds on their own so thats about 5- 8 wounds which is definatly not bad, and and quite cost effective. and with their high attacks, possibility to stubborn and immune to psycology but not stupidity, and about 3 body's for every knight, their more probable to finish it off in 2 rounds, a hel pit can't kill of 20 witches, and with stubborn from a cauldron, they'll kill it in the next combat. knights can be destroyed, and don't have stubborn unless you put a char in there with the crown. but thats quite risky since you won't have a ward (unless it's a dreadlord which can and will destroy it, if not just by using crimson death and doing 2 wounds on his own) and the st6 hit no as d3 wounds could very well kill him if you'd fluff your rolls.and thats also about 11 witches you could had have


Tue Jan 25, 2011 4:25 pm
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PjEOs wrote:

@Tethlis:

Hi there, sure skaven opponents can actually see my flamming units coming, but it is very difficult for him to control the HPA because of its movement rules. Once the HPA has moved, it is actually easy to control it. Due to its own rules, the HPA must first pivot and then move straight 3D6 inches.

So, place harpies or DRs in it's flank, 1 inch away from it, and the HPA cannot pivot and has no other choice but to rush forward in the same direction it was moving. Make sure you set another harpie/DR unit to redirect any possible infantry that may charge the first unit. And then the HPA has no other coice but to keep moving in that direction. It is now predictable and you can prepare to charge it.

If it was moving just forward to our lines, it will keep to do so and we can face it with troops ofour choice. If it was moving to avoid something, it is easier to set a harpy unit in it's flank and a lot harder for his troops to remove that harpy unit and it will keep moving in that direction.

Anyway, this is all theoretical and I'm yet to test it, but seems like an easy tactic and makes a lot easier that my Warriors can actually catch it.

Your thoughts?


Perfectly valid strategy. Of course, that assumes your opponent will let you park a unit that close to the HPA without shooting them, panicking them, charging them with slaves/giant rats/gunner runners/etc.

I don't think many Skaven players will expect it though, and I think it's a great idea. I also think it's a bit... Bleh in terms of how the rule was meant to be used, but we all know the 1-inch rule is a bit of a mess.

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Tue Jan 25, 2011 5:38 pm
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Wow, had a long response to post, but deleted it in the most stupid way... :evil:


So, I find that whatever the Skaven player wants to do to avoid this, he must do it before the HPA moves, that is: with a charge from other units. We can redirect nearby units, try to kill Giant Rats but...what for? We can receive the charge, stay there, see the HPA rush forward (or wherever it is facing) and prepare the charge or another unit to repeat the process. Any shooting/magic/panic will come after the HPA moved so...the harm is done.

The Skaven player may opt to place Giant Rats in the HPA's flanks to avoid our harpies/DRs, but that will too hinder the HPA's movement. Furthermore, we can place units in the HPA's face, 1 inch away, so that it has to charge them because it can dodge Giant Rats and our unit. After all, friendly units must too stay 1 inch from each other, mustn't they?. In case it charges with the Giant Rats, the HPA will still be boxed.

And still we could place Harpies behind the HPA, 1 inch away, and again it wouldn't be able to pivot for as soon as it tries to do so, it gets closer to the Harpies than 1 inch. Remember that HPA's front and rear is actually big (2.3 inches) which only helps us.

No Skaven player would place Giant Rats in both flanks and in the rear of the HPA near enough to avoid Harpies/DRs getting in between and far enough to let the HPA charge anything XD.


Your thoughts?


Three friends of mine play Skaven atm (they are all good players and one is a Skaven veteran), I'll test this against them and ask them how would they counter this. But I can't see how would they avoid this :D



EDIT: I am aware that this all may look like a bit desperate, but I am desperate! XD Do you guys think that this is pushing the rules too far? rules-loopholes (or however it's called XD)?


Last edited by Pjeos on Tue Jan 25, 2011 6:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Tue Jan 25, 2011 6:18 pm
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I don't think it's pushing the rules too far, but you may have to sit there and explain to them why it's illegal for them to turn the HPA. They may disagree, challenge you, call in a rule judge, review the rulebook, and even though you're correct, your opponent may resent it and it brings down the overall tone of the game. I find that this can often happen if you understand the rules better than your opponent; you use the rules to gain an advantage and catch your opponent by surprise, and he feels resentful that you're "abusing" the rules (though really, it's your opponent's fault for not knowing the rules better himself).

In times I've tried to use a similar strategy in 7th edition, most of my opponents have just moved the center-point of the HPA's base a little bit so they can turn the HPA while avoiding contact with enemy models. I always say this as "wrong", since they have to pivot around the center of the model like a reform rather than moving the center of the model to make space, but I usually didn't challenge it since I didn't feel it was worth the ensuing argument.

I like this strategy quite a bit, so much so that I mentioned it to my gaming group to see their opinions and how they would counter it as a Skaven player. I'll be curious to see what they say.

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Tue Jan 25, 2011 7:16 pm
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Well I think its a bit far-reach. I love the idea man, and I never thought about that harpy-trick before you mentioned in this post :) But somehow I feel its kind of a loop-hole in the rules. Legal yes, ethical, not so much.

Personally I hate when my best friend who plays VC rols for wind of undeath (I belive thats the correct name of the spell) and places a spirit host just in front of my hydra. Also legal, but a bit "blaaargh..." :) So when I play friendly game agaisnt skaven I might just try that tactics out for fun and the look on the players face, but I do think if you really have to go to that kind of desperate measures, it say something about you as a player.

I dont think fluff-wise now, I just think players should be gentlemen for a good game (I like the quid-pro quo for forgetting minor rules like forgetting to do magic before shooting and forgetting to bless at the start of round with CoB and so on and still be able to "go back" and DO those things). Theese "cheap" tactics might get you a win, but will not make you any good friends I think :)

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Tue Jan 25, 2011 7:20 pm
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Hi there,

I see where your points come from. I still have to think about it a bit to decide wether to use it or not.

But I must say I disagree that going for this "desperate" tactic says anything of me as a player at all. I mean, Skaven are freaking hard to beat. Dunno how do your Skaven opponent play, but here in Spain the common opinion is that if my cat were somehow able to roll dice, it would be able to win some games with a Skaven army.

Now serious. Skaven is an army which has lots of ways of dealing insane, stupid, ridiculous amounts of damage to any opponent in the earlier turns. And no army out there can deal serious damage to their army in said early turns. Then, you come to face a monster with random M, random attacks whose only difficulty to play is to decide where to move. The Skaven points a direction and says "there" and the monster moves and attacks whatever it touches on its own, and you remove X models. Then, we have the Doomwheel that moves random too but can control its M, rolls dice to move, dolls dice for S of the beams, wounds your Hydra, you fail 1 regen and it's dead Hydra. Then, he's got a Furnace that they actually have to move but that chews elves relentlessly. And they've got a Grey Seer that turn after turn points at your BG, says "i use scroll of reaction+Dreaded 13th", rolls a double with 6-8 dice, rolls 4D6 and you loose your 18 BG with the BSB inside. Next turn, more Dreaded 13ths turn after turn. There's also an Engineer that marches 10 inches, shots a thing to your Hydra, I test and Hydra dead (now they test at I2). Then there is another Engineer that shoots another thing that places a big template partially over another infantry of yours and it's a S5 template.

So in the first two turns i've lost 2 infantries and my Hydra. And now i'm to face one or 2 HPAs and a Doomwheel or two with nearly half my army. And then they field 15 damn Engineers at 15 points each to redirect/tarpit forever whatever you have left and get flank charges with HPA/Plague Monks/Bearers.

I'm not taking ofense because you said that if I need such these tactics to win a Skaven that says something of me as a player. But makes me laugh a bit to consider then, what does using double HPA+Scroll of Reaction+Brass Orb+Doom Rocket+Plague Furnace+15 Engineers say about a Skaven player.

Maybe I'm a really limited player, but I can't win a game against such army and in my local gaming club we consider a draw against a Skaven as a victory. And there are very good gamers in my gaming environment.

And now, I'd like to be a little obscene and please nobody take ofense, but we in our gaming club believe that it takes no fu***** skill to play with such those lists. And if I face such a list, I won't feel embarrased to box his HPA with Harpies...


Still, we are concerned about fair play and real tactics, so will have to think about it or leave it as a PLAN B in case I happen to face such Skaven lists (which I will for sure).


Anyway, thanks for sharing your PoV, they're very much apreciated and I will remember all that you guys pointed about this when I face a Skaven player.

Gentleness, fair play and real tactics come first. But fire is to be fought with fire :roll:

Sorry for the long post.


Tue Jan 25, 2011 8:19 pm
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Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 2:54 am
Posts: 1444
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
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MyrkrDreki wrote:
Personally I hate when my best friend who plays VC rols for wind of undeath (I belive thats the correct name of the spell) and places a spirit host just in front of my hydra. Also legal, but a bit "blaaargh..." :) So when I play friendly game agaisnt skaven I might just try that tactics out for fun and the look on the players face, but I do think if you really have to go to that kind of desperate measures, it say something about you as a player.


The Vamp Count example doesn't strike me as a rule loophole... It strikes me as good strategy. Spirit Hosts being Ethereal isn't an accident. It's not like GW said "well, let's give them this cool special rule, and if they just HAPPEN to be immune to damage also, well that's just an unforeseen side effect." The whole idea behind Ethereal units is that they're hard to kill and you need specialty troops to do it, so your friend strikes me as a smart tactician.

As for this whole HPA ruling, can the HPA turn + charge all be counted as a charge move? So couldn't the fact that the HPA is charging allow him to break the 1-inch rule, and possibly allow it to charge a nearby enemy unit?

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Tue Jan 25, 2011 8:57 pm
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Executioner
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Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2009 12:14 am
Posts: 184
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Hi there,

I have the english version of the Skaven book (well, of all books since spanish books and BRB are so full of translating mistakes, sad) and this what it exactly states:

"A Hell Pit Abomination is moved in the owning player's Compulsory Movement, moving 3D6" each turn. First, pivot the Hell Pit Abomination to face the direction in which you wish it to travel and then roll 3D6; this is how many inches directly forward the creature will move. If a triple is rolled, do not move the Hell Pit Abomination; instead roll immediately on the Berserk Abomination chart.

(Here comes the chart)

If the Abomination's movement is sufficient to take it into an enemy unit then it counts as charging. The target may make a charge reaction as normal, counting the Movement value rolled as the Abomination's maximum charge distance (for purposes of fleeing, standing and shooting, and so on). If the move is blocked by impassible terrain the Hell Pit Abomination will stop 1" away from it. If the Hell Pit Abomination's move takes it into a friendly unit the cerature will immediately cause D6 Impact Hits to the unit in its way, before withdrawing back 1"and ending its movement."


Then come the special attack rules.

From the need to know better the Skaven army, I got their book and started to read it from A to Z as we say. And it was from reading "First, pivot the Hell Pit Abomination to face the direction in which you wish it to travel and then roll 3D6;" and "If the Abomination's movement is sufficient to take it into an enemy unit then it counts as charging." that I came to think "what if it can pivot for whatever reason, i.e due to being parked by an impassible terrain or because of enemy troops near?". Then I suddenly realized what this could mean.

From written evidence, it is clear that the HPA first pivots, then moves and if this movement is enough to reach an enemy unit, then it is considered a charge. So I just prevent it from pivoting and if it happens to reach any unit in its movement, then it's a charge. This is how I see it.

Also, I found evidence that the 1inch rule is thought to be taken into account when playing the HPA in the following FaQ:
Quote:
Q. What happens if an Abomination rolls “The Rats Emerge” or “It's
Alive!” but there is insufficient room to place the models within 3" of
the marker and 1" from the enemy? (p57)
A. They are destroyed.


So this makes me think they were actually taking into account the 1inch rule when they deviced the HPA. Or at least they are taking it into account now, with the FaQ release.

Your thoughts?



EDIT:

Sorry guys, I kept reading the Skaven FaQ and there is an entry about the HPA movement:
Quote:
Change the first paragraph to “The Hell Pit Abomination has
the Random Movement special rule, with the following
exceptions.
• If a triple is rolled when moving the Hell Pit Abomination
(except when fleeing or pursuing), do not move it; instead
roll immediately on the Berserk Abomination chart.
• If the move takes it into a friendly unit, the creature will
inflict D6 S6 hits, distributed in the same manner as
shooting attacks, and then stop 1" away from the unit (or flee
through it if it is fleeing).”
In addition, ignore the paragraph after the Berserk
Abomination chart.


So now it basically moves like any other unit in the game with the Random Movement special rule, with the aforementioned exceptions. On my way to read the english BRB to make sure wether how this exactly works.

Sorry for the long, long post.


EDITII:

Hi there, this is starting to get...weird...so many editing XD. So I checked the english BRB and the Random Movement special rule works the same as the HPA's movement rule. First pivot, then roll dices and before moving it check wether it touches any enemy unit. If it does, consider it a charge. So since pivot is first thatn anything else, the HPA cannot "choose" any target that is not right in front of it.

So I must say that I can't consider manipulating it's movement with Harpies pushing the rules any far.


Your thoughts?


Last edited by Pjeos on Tue Jan 25, 2011 10:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Tue Jan 25, 2011 10:09 pm
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Beastmaster

Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2008 11:51 am
Posts: 366
Post 
Witch elves w/ flaming banner eat hellpits without issue.

Aside from eating up low armour units their main use in my army is taking down high T. Generally this is monsters (many of whom regen, the banner makes 10x its points back in half of my games) as they are tooled up perfectly for the purpose.


Tue Jan 25, 2011 10:25 pm
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Shade
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Joined: Mon May 03, 2010 5:50 pm
Posts: 118
Location: Trondheim, Norway
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@ Tethlis

I really did not mean to present certain ways as a "loophole". I only ment to say that if your last way out was to use theese kind of tactics, well...

I know, its a special ability that only VC have and all that. And i respect that! I have Hydra, he have .....

My point is only that sometimes you can work the rules in a negative way (other then the fact then that you use the rule). I dont mind if my friend uses wind of death in front of my hydra (and then basicly illimidate it), thats one of the ways VS wins. However, as i remember (in 7th) he could make a conga behind whatever, and if i lost my ld, id run of the game. I may not have made a good example, but my I think my point is still valid; dont be a as*hole!

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Wed Jan 26, 2011 2:58 am
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Trainee Warrior

Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2010 1:53 pm
Posts: 41
Location: Poland, Lodz
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PjEOs wrote:
Your thoughts?

Hi,

I knew I read something interesting about charging somewhere. Took a minute and found it. This bit might be helpful in figuring out how this tactic might or might not work:

(small IoB rulebook, p20)

"It's important to note that a unit can move to within 1" of another unit when charging - not just the one that it is charging - this is the only time that this is normally allowed."

What's left is to figure out whether the pivot is restricted as well or not :)


Wed Jan 26, 2011 9:35 am
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