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Adapting to new rules. 
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Noble

Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2008 10:40 pm
Posts: 420
Long time since posting last, equally long since I played.

I finally played a game last night with some friends and my army was annihilated to the man. I also got to experience the new rules for the first time, which largely seem unchanged(it's been 9 months since my last game). I am curious how people have changed their army lists, unit structure and tactics to compensate for the new rules.

How are people using dark riders now? I liked using 5 man units with only a musician and spears as war machine hunters and flankers. But now since you need 10 to negate rank bonuses, their role as a flanking unit seems diminished.

I also notice the effectiveness of march blocking and redirecting seems to have been greatly hampered, making dark riders seem less valuable now.

Are great weapon shades still a popular choice? Always strikes last really seems to ruin the great weapon option I was previously so fond of.

Am I mistaken or can shades now deploy anywhere outside 12" from the enemy deployment, while being hidden is not required?

Is anyone using RHB corsairs, now that they can fire in two ranks? I tried them and although they got destroyed through odd circumstance they seemed more viable then before. I also wondered if giving them the frenzy banner is a valid option now that they can restrain frenzy and choose to shoot.

Any advice on dealing with horde units would be appreciated. I got to face a 50 man High Elf spear man unit with lord, as well as a 100 man night goblin unit with Skarsnik and both units were absolutely gross. Is anyone else bitter that high elves essentially have hatred in addition to ASF now? :?

I really liked where the magic phase has gone, it seems greatly improved. What lores are popular among dark elf players? Shadow looks very appealing to me so far and metal seems fairly balanced.

Sorry, I guess thats allot of info to digest, I am trying to grasp the implications the new rules have created for our army.


Sat Mar 12, 2011 6:04 pm
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Hi, and welcome back :)

There are threads about most of these, but here are my biased opinions on your questions;

Quote:
How are people using dark riders now? I liked using 5 man units with only a musician and spears as war machine hunters and flankers. But now since you need 10 to negate rank bonuses, their role as a flanking unit seems diminished.


Not at all, shades can basically do everything better than Dark Riders. :/

Quote:
I also notice the effectiveness of march blocking and redirecting seems to have been greatly hampered, making dark riders seem less valuable now.


Yes, march blocking is totally out. What you have to do is delay units by redirecting them (with Harpies, usually), but you can expect everything to reach combat much faster than before.

Quote:
Are great weapon shades still a popular choice? Always strikes last really seems to ruin the great weapon option I was previously so fond of.


No, too vulnerable, and too large a waste of initiative compared to additional handweapons. Great weapons are awesome on HE (as they still get ASF and 'hatred'), and on really big units of Execs, but not for anything else.

Quote:
Am I mistaken or can shades now deploy anywhere outside 12" from the enemy deployment, while being hidden is not required?


You're correct, but keep in mind that most units now can charge further, and even Dwarves got a 10" average charge.

Quote:
Is anyone using RHB corsairs, now that they can fire in two ranks? I tried them and although they got destroyed through odd circumstance they seemed more viable then before. I also wondered if giving them the frenzy banner is a valid option now that they can restrain frenzy and choose to shoot.


I actually started a thread on this, and you can find it at: http://www.druchii.net/viewtopic.php?p=819375&highlight=handbows#819375. Basically, crossbows are probably better unless you're having restrictions on how many you can take, but handbows are definitely better than before.

Quote:
Any advice on dealing with horde units would be appreciated. I got to face a 50 man High Elf spear man unit with lord, as well as a 100 man night goblin unit with Skarsnik and both units were absolutely gross.


There are three ways to deal with them:

* Bring enough redirection to avoid them totally
* Use the "number six" spells to decimate them (applies mostly to those who can pick Life, but Purple Sun from Death and Final Transmutation from Metal are also applicable. Pit of Shades from Shadow might work too)
* Bring a bigger, badder unit yourself. Our infantry units are excellent value and we can easily boost such units with CoB and magic to make them even better.

In the HE spearmen case, 50 Spearmen + Lord must be almost 1000 pts. You can get 50 DE spearmen, Lord, and a CoB to give them 5+ ward for the same points, and you'll beat them toe to toe.

Quote:
Is anyone else bitter that high elves essentially have hatred in addition to ASF now?


Yes, but their units where overprized anyway and they're probably more balanced now than before.

Quote:
I really liked where the magic phase has gone, it seems greatly improved. What lores are popular among dark elf players? Shadow looks very appealing to me so far and metal seems fairly balanced.


There are several threads on this, but Shadow is probably the most popular choise. Personally I'm experimenting with lvl 4 Death + lvl 2 Fire, but I might go Shadow + Fire instead.

Good luck, and welcome to the most fun edition so far (imo) ;)


Sat Mar 12, 2011 7:26 pm
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Executioner
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They have better than ASF + hatred. Hatred only lasts for 1 round of combat but HE get re-rolls in every round. At least we also get re-rolls every round against them.

For magic I like level 4 shadow because I think it's the most overall useful lore for us. I like to back it up with a level 2 Dark for the low casting values or a level 2 death to maybe pick off enemy characters; getting rid of a BSB or an enemy spellcaster can be a huge advantage, not to mention getting an easy kill on the enemy general in the blood and glory scenario.

Great weapon shades are still useful but AHW is usually more useful. I still take dark riders but not as many as before.

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Sun Mar 13, 2011 1:34 am
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Noble

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I am having a hard time justifying dark riders against shades, shades just seem better in every way now.

Can a supporting attack have killing blow or +2 strength from a gw for example, the rule book doesn't seem quite clear although I understand a only 1 supporting attack can be made per model.

I just scrambled together a list quickly, it's loosely based off my last edition army, I hope it is legal.

Dread Lord
Armour of Eternal Servitude
Dragon Helm
Sea Dragon Cloak
Shield
Sword of Battle
Repeater Crossbow
Potion of Strength

30 Black Ark Corsairs
Repeater Hand Bows
Full Command
Sea Serpent Standard

Supreme Sorceress Lv4
Lore of Shadow
Pendent of Khaeleth
Sacrificial Dagger
Black Dragon Egg

20 Dark Elf Crossbowmen
Guard Master, Musician

Death Hag Battle Standard
Cauldron of Blood

14 Executioners
Full command
Banner of Murder

Assassin
Additional Hand Weapon
Rending Stars
Manbane

10 Shades
additional hand weapons

10 Shades
additional hand weapons

10 Dark Riders
Herald, Musician

5 harpies

5 harpies

1 Coldone Chariot

1 War Hydra

1 Reaper Bolt Thrower

I believe that is near 2800, questions and comments please.

I am not sure about the Dark Riders, I want to include them to fill out my core and to use them as a high speed flanking unit, would it be better as two 5 man units. Is it worth taking the herald with no crossbows? I am also wondering if shields might be useful now and how that effects them.

BTW I like your cauldron of blood Greenwhy


Sun Mar 13, 2011 6:13 pm
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... And Hell Followed
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You should probably post up your list in the Army List section ;)

Supporting attack benefits from all the rules that regular attacks get (e.g. killing blow, ASF, great weapons etc) but for infantry you can only make one.

Dark Riders are still viable, they've just lost some of their effectiveness. A unit of 6 with a musician is practically guaranteed a charge in the second turn (provided they don't get shot to bits - which usually happens to me) using Vanguard. If not Vanguard you can charge in the first turn if you opponent is reckless enough. Don't bother with shields (makes them not Fast Cavalry) or a Herald, a musician is a good idea, though. Crossbows is really down to preferance.

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Sun Mar 13, 2011 7:20 pm
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Unlike a lot of folks, I now include a unit or two of Dark Riders in almost all my army builds. With the decreased effectiveness of shooting, I can't justify crossbows. But I find a unit of five Dark Riders with Shields incredibly useful. I still consider them entirely disposable (life is harsh in Naggaroth) but they still fufill the role of redirecting admirably and I will gladly throw them into a flank of anything short of Chaos Warrirors. Dark Elves are still a finesse army that relies on the movement phase to win (arguably not as much as 6th & 7th editions) and combined charges. I can't say if they are the most economical use of my army points but the most important things are - I pulled off a really nice paint job so I like fielding them, I have a pretty good understanding of just what they can and can't do so they're effective for me, and lastly they fit into my own play style/battle plans nicely. Sometimes playing Warhammer isn't about this versus that or cheese versus cheese. I like to win but I've found winning a lot more rewarding when I'm more concerned with having fun. Dark Riders do both for me. I guess what I'm saying is - don't count them out!

I like your list but personally I would drop one unit of Shades and turn them into more Executioners. That unit is your biggest threat and swinging last they'll need to be able to absorb casualties so they can swing back. I'd also but a second Reaper Bolt Thrower or get rid of the first one. I don't think one by itself is effective enough.

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Sun Mar 13, 2011 10:34 pm
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Executioner
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I agree with the more executioners. Will your sorceress be by herself? She needs some spearmen to sacrifice imo. If she is in a unit she might not need that much protection from magic items.

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Mon Mar 14, 2011 1:15 am
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Noble

Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2008 10:40 pm
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Quote:
With the decreased effectiveness of shooting, I can't justify crossbows.


Did they get worse at shooting somehow?

Quote:
But I find a unit of five Dark Riders with Shields incredibly useful. I still consider them entirely disposable (life is harsh in Naggaroth) but they still fulfil the role of redirecting admirably and I will gladly throw them into a flank of anything short of Chaos Warriors.


Naturally any dark elf troop is disposable, merely a stepping stone to victory! :twisted: I am assuming with shields they loose the new vanguard rule. I am interested in trying shields since I am not using crossbows.

I ran my execs in a unit of 14 in last edition and that is all I currently own, not that I mind substituting models. I kept it as a medium unit because of always strikes last, they just seem to vulnerable in a head on fight now. I limited their size and designated them a heavy hitting support unit for my corsairs, primarily to be used as a flanking unit or to take on smaller units, monsters etc.. I plan on running them 5 wide, as that is more then enough to dominate the flank of nearly any foe, but I can reform to 7 wide if I have to engage another unit in the front.

Having said that how many more should I take?

I had planned on sticking my sorceress in my crossbow unit initially, but I am also interested in utilizing the shadow lore ability to teleport, partially why I took two other characters on foot. I am assuming you can do that multiple times in a turn?

As for the dagger, I never really used it to aggressively in the past edition and the way magic is now I can't see that changing and with my sorceress moving around a little I can spread the sacrifices around a bit if I need too.

Having said that I think it might be wise to add a few more crossbows as a buffer against shooting, magic, miscasts and the dagger.

As for the lone reaper, I can't say I understand the mentality that two is better than one, although I previously used two. I like to plant them on extreme angles so I almost exclusively hit flanks with the single shot(all I use). One is less of a target too, is your enemy going to go to the other edge of the board to eliminate 1 lousy bolt thrower, is it worth the time?

Thanks for the feedback so far, it has been insightful, hopefully it will help me net a win next game.


Mon Mar 14, 2011 4:00 am
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No RXBs aren't worse but with the fast pace of the game, now, you just have a turn less to capitalize on it. On the other hand you now fire from two ranks so maybe its a wash.

Even if you assign your Execs to a supporting roll they need to be, IMO, 3 ranks min. on the charge to a flank. The unit you charge will kill a few first and hopefully you will still have 2 full ranks to disrupt and strip them of their rank bonus.

I agree with you that every one is expendable in the DE. Having spearmen that just to act as a battery with no other purpose is just a waste of points to me. Bulking up on you RXBs is a good idea though.

Two Reapers are better than one for the simple fact that our warmachines only have 2 wounds now. Even if you use the RBTs toughness vs. shooting and MMs every thing wounds on a 6 now. All your enemy needs to do is land 12 shots (going by averages) and thats one dead reaper. At least with 2 you have double the chance of a connecting a shot and twice as many wounds (in two units).

P.S. Your Dreadlord cant have two magic items from the same catagory so I would drop the Dragonhelm and take the gem instead.

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Mon Mar 14, 2011 12:05 pm
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Wirewolf wrote:
No RXBs aren't worse but with the fast pace of the game, now, you just have a turn less to capitalize on it. On the other hand you now fire from two ranks so maybe its a wash.

Even if you assign your Execs to a supporting roll they need to be, IMO, 3 ranks min. on the charge to a flank. The unit you charge will kill a few first and hopefully you will still have 2 full ranks to disrupt and strip them of their rank bonus.

I agree with you that every one is expendable in the DE. Having spearmen that just to act as a battery with no other purpose is just a waste of points to me. Bulking up on you RXBs is a good idea though.

Two Reapers are better than one for the simple fact that our warmachines only have 2 wounds now. Even if you use the RBTs toughness vs. shooting and MMs every thing wounds on a 6 now. All your enemy needs to do is land 12 shots (going by averages) and thats one dead reaper. At least with 2 you have double the chance of a connecting a shot and twice as many wounds (in two units).

P.S. Your Dreadlord cant have two magic items from the same catagory so I would drop the Dragonhelm and take the gem instead.


Thus why 20 RXB really does shine. You can shoot more and they can hold a lot on their own acting as emergency tanking or flanking unit. For the RBT it really depends on what else you are fielding to say if they have a place whether taking one, a pair or any at all.

P.S. You can combine Dragonhelm with other armor...

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Mon Mar 14, 2011 6:12 pm
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Noble

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Quote:
P.S. You can combine Dragonhelm with other armor...


I am confused... I thought under magic armour it says you can combine different types of magic armour, like a magic curiass and a magic shield etc.. But at the start of the magic item section it clearly says a character can only select one magic item from each section, which is how the last edition was.

I would like to beef up the corsairs and RXB men so they can absorb some damage, before loosing some effectiveness.

The problem is the extra models may very well not have any effect for the whole game. I am on the fence, I like my units to be efficient and effective.

The executioners I feel are adequate, if I run them five wide they can still take some abuse before they loose the ability to disrupt enemy flanks.

Another reaper would be nice, but it's a matter of scrounging points up, like everything.

Is two lords and two heroes a bit much at 2800? I never used to invest much points in characters. I fear I might be weakening the backbone of my army, it seems pretty big for an elf army but I have never played 2800pts before.


Mon Mar 14, 2011 6:54 pm
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May I recommend the reading of my early analysis about 8th edition?
D.R.A.I.C.H. Dark Elves units under 8th edition.

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Mon Mar 14, 2011 9:50 pm
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You can take one piece of magic armour and combine that with other pieces of mundane armour. e.g Dragonhelm +heavy armour + sea dragon cloak.

20 is a good figure for rpt xbowmen, I would recommend no more than 24 (12 by 2), any more and they become too unwieldy. If you take 24 you can reform them to 6 by 4 in close combat.

Two lords and 2 heroes is good for that many points - provided you don't go overboard on magic items.

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Mon Mar 14, 2011 11:07 pm
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Indeed, welcome to the last several months of discussion on Druchii.net... Click on virtually any topic and you'll probably learn something about 8th edition. Despite your initial impression, it's a very different game than 7th edition was. The fundamental mechanics are similar, but there are a lot of changes that alter the strategy and list composition that players use.

As far as list composition goes:
-The new magic items have opened up a fair number of possibilities for us. In particular, the Crown of Command lets us take a Dreadlord and make him very difficult to kill and very difficult to break, allowing a flexible combat character that can tie up many opponents. Pegasus-mounted combat characters are very popular, since the pegasus profile combines with the rider. The rider benefits from better Toughness, and the pegasus can no longer be shot out from under the rider.

-Our magic is just as fearsome as ever. The Sacrificial Dagger, plus a block of inexpensive Spearmen for spell "ingredients", is very dangerous.

-The bigger the better, where infantry blocks are concerned. For cheap spearmen, 30-40 strong are very standard. For elite infantry, 20+ is common as well. You will be taking casualties, it's inevitable, so planning accordingly is important.

-You have to be able to kill things, so heavy combat units have an important place. Big units of Cold One Knights, hydras, chariots, Witch Elves, and the Cauldron of Blood to support them, are all popular.

-Reaper bolt throwers have suffered in popularity. They're very fragile, since they only have two crewman which give the machine two Wounds, and there are fewer small, light, quick regiments for them to shoot at. Most players have abandoned their bolt throwers entirely in favor of other units, but that's entirely up to you. The bottom line is to be aware of the very significant changes to warmachines.

To address some of your questions:

-2 Lords, 2 Heroes is pretty standard for a 2800 point game. I myself use 2 Lords, 1 Hero in 2500. Some players use more. I myself don't advocate spending too many points on heroes though; regiments are just too valuable to pass up, in my opinion.

-For your list, make sure you use the more expensive point cost for the Potion of Strength as it appears in the Dark Elf armybook. The rulebook says that when two identical unit entries appear in the rulebook and in an armybook, the armybook entry is used. This was intended for the mundane magic items (dispel scroll, Enchanted shield, etc.) but also affects our Potion of Strength. Also, I would consider focusing less on shooting and more on infantry regiments. It will be a challenge for your shooting to really hamper the enemy, and you don't want your infantry regiments to be overwhelmed by the many blocks of troops you're likely to encounter. We'll often be outnumbered, but you'll still need a critical mass of combat-oriented regiments to be able to fight back.

-If you're going against a horde-formation unit, you'll want to make sure you're either resistant to their damage, or kill enough of them that they can't fight back. Resistance to their damage can be achieved many ways; either take bigger blocks, augment your own troops with spells, or hex the enemy to reduce their fighting effectiveness. Killing enough that they can't fight back is a self-explanatory idea; load up multiple units, charge them at that wide horde frontage, and slaughter enough to make their return attacks inconsequential.

To use your example of 50 High Elf spearmen...

Hex them with Mystifying Miasma, to reduce their Initiative. They will potentially lose the re-roll to hit against your troops.

Hex them with Enfeebling Foe. Strength 3 might be reduced down to Strength 2 or Strength 1.

Charge them with 10 Cold One Knights with Banner of Hag Graef, supported by the Cauldron of Blood for +1 Attack, as well as a War Hydra.

The Knights have Always Strike First and re-rolls to hit. With those Hexes active, the Spearmen will do virtually zero casualties. The War Hydra will also fight, not just with its usual 7 Attacks and 6 handler attacks, but also Thunder Stomping for another D6 Strength 5 hits and (if you like) using its breath weapon in combat for an addition 2D6 hits.

With the proper prep work, and maximizing frontage, that becomes:
-Approximately 20 Strength 6 attacks, re-rolling to hit.
-Approximately 9 Strength 4 attacks.
-Seven Strength 5 Attacks, re-roll to hit.
-Six Strength 3 Attacks, armor piercing, re-roll to hit.
-3D6 Strength 5 automatic hits.

So you can see, with proper support, you can direct an incredible amount of focused offensive power at a single enemy unit, taking even difficult odds (a 50-strong, ASF opponent) and quickly reducing them to a pile of broken bodies with the right application of force. This is something of a perfect example, and it's rare that you'll get exactly all those circumstances to align for you, but it's an example of what can be achieved if you play to the strengths of 8th edition.

For my own playstyle, that's how I treat Dark Elves in 8th edition; picking a vulnerable target, maneuvering to hit it, and focusing most of your list's resources into ensuring that combat is won. The rest of the Dark Elf list exists to buy you more time to repeat that process until the battle is won, or to support that focused attack before and when it's being made.

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Mon Mar 14, 2011 11:32 pm
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I mentioned that shooting (in my oppinion) is less effective because A)units are bigger and thus harder to cause panic checks on or strip ranks from and B) now that BSBs allow leadership test rerolls, panic is less of a threat. Our shooty army of doom just isn't that scary anymore.

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Tue Mar 15, 2011 1:08 am
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Quote:
May I recommend the reading of my early analysis about 8th edition?
D.R.A.I.C.H. Dark Elves units under 8th edition.


I will defiantly read it, I am sure it is very insightful.

Quote:
-For your list, make sure you use the more expensive point cost for the Potion of Strength as it appears in the Dark Elf armybook.


Thats disappointing... Thank you also for clarifying the armour thing btw.

Tethlis I appreciate your example, that is defiantly the synergy I try to capture when I build an army. Weather or not I have accomplished that with my list I won't really know until I play a game or two.

This is what draws me to shadow lore, it seems very supportive of our own abilities. The toughness lowering spell for example seems like it would be devastating combined with the concentrated repeater crossbow fire, among other things.

I believe I have a fairly powerful CC orientated army because of the support I have invested in, although I admit it is unconventional. I also believe I have an army that can fight well at range if I need too. Versatility is paramount in my mind and is ultimately what I try to achieve in an army. I have had situation where CC just won't work against enemies alone and shooting and evasion is required and I have experienced the opposite.

Quote:
For my own playstyle, that's how I treat Dark Elves in 8th edition; picking a vulnerable target, maneuvering to hit it, and focusing most of your list's resources into ensuring that combat is won.


Agreed. I actually think this is how shooting fails for many people, they like to spread it out, but I find it works best when you concentrate it, especially when you have augmented it somehow and then immediatly follow up with CC.

I also like to concentrate my CC effort as well, this is why I have so many support units. They work great at disrupting the enemy and when my few larger units get to CC, hopefully I will have an abundance of support choices at hand.

Quote:
I mentioned that shooting (in my oppinion) is less effective because A)units are bigger and thus harder to cause panic checks on or strip ranks from and B) now that BSBs allow leadership test rerolls, panic is less of a threat. Our shooty army of doom just isn't that scary anymore.


I wouldn't put so much stock in panicking troops. It is indeed nice when you can do it, but even in the last edition it was uncommon in my experience, especially against higher leadership armies. To me it's just a way to soften targets before CC.

Quote:
I agree with you that every one is expendable in the DE. Having spearmen that just to act as a battery with no other purpose is just a waste of points to me. Bulking up on you RXBs is a good idea though.


I completely agree, a unit of spear men that is solely used as a body guard and manna battery is a waste of points in my mind. This is also what seems to happen to units of this nature, I need my manna battery to be producing damage in addition to power dice, it's worth the extra cost IMO!

Great feedback so far, thank you all.


Tue Mar 15, 2011 2:13 am
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DR far less effective indeed, but still viable as fast cav for warmashine and lone mage hunters. Depending on the los system your using they are now in some cases the only good screening unit. Against warmashines they can be effective point savers in this matter. I do seldom find a place in my list for them though.

Shades with GW is out tottaly and shades with adhw is very much in fashion. A solid unit of shades + assassing with rending start/manbane is one of my favourites. They make their points back 90% of the time and sometimes win the game all togheter for me.

Exec. is no longer a valid unit at all. Just convert the models into BG or warriors with spears.

The competitive DE armies out there seems to be using :
30+ spears, at least 2 big blocks.
Flying circus with pegasus master and lord and lots of harpies ( 4 small units )
Lv 4 with dagger in a large unit of spears.
2 hydras
Small WE units. Can be very annoying because they are virtually no points and can be extremely deadly with magic support.
18-20 BG with armor piercing banner is very common.

Corsairs is difficult in large blocks. 30+ fc with frenzy banner is 350 points as for 30 spears fc is 200. When the purpose is denying steadfast they are the same and the potential extra dammage is rarely efectuated. In small screening unit they can be effective due to 4+ save against shooting especially with 5+ ward save. I would say they are now a situational unit. Very good sometimes, but to expencive in other match ups.

This is my take on it from maby 20 odd matches of 8 ed. wfb so take it with a grain of salt.

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Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:38 am
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Quote:
Shades with GW is out totally and shades with adhw is very much in fashion. A solid unit of shades + assassin with rending start/manbane is one of my favourites. They make their points back 90% of the time and sometimes win the game all together for me.


What is your definition of a solid unit of shades? I am thinking of dropping one unit of shades to free up points.

Quote:
Exec. is no longer a valid unit at all. Just convert the models into BG or warriors with spears.


I may be wrong but it appears to me great weapon choices seem out in general. For me they really hurt executioners by not allowing units that charge to strike first, imo that rule in general damaged the game. However they still do great damage to nearly anything and you can mitigate the curse of always striking last, by placing them where they will generally be facing minimal resistance, like the flank or rear.

I admit this is less than optimal however and I have indeed thought of using the Executioners I have as Black Guard.

Quote:
Corsairs is difficult in large blocks. 30+ fc with frenzy banner is 350 points as for 30 spears fc is 200. When the purpose is denying steadfast they are the same and the potential extra damage is rarely effectuated. In small screening unit they can be effective due to 4+ save against shooting especially with 5+ ward save. I would say they are now a situational unit. Very good sometimes, but to expensive in other match ups.


I didn't use spears in the last edition and I won't start now, although they are good. I used to play very aggressively, so spears just didn't cut it for me and now with hoard units, I know I will appreciate the extra attacks from corsairs even more. Besides if you are going to spends as much points as I have on augmenting your units combat power with sorcery and COB, you may as well pick the units that will benefit the most.

I read D.R.A.I.C.H. Dark Elves units under 8th edition. if offers some interesting ideas and also opened my eyes to a few rule changes I didn't notice. Gonna be running my harpies in 6's now and I think I will indeed try the 12 man dark rider unit.... Poor, poor executioners... :(


Sat Mar 19, 2011 7:19 am
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to be honest I have only used spears ever in 8th edition as I preferred that all my units to be able to inflict damage but 8th edition changed that. I guess it's one of the few things that DE picked up that we weren't so accustomed to before of actually having cheap cannon fodder anvil units but now that we can actually field them, the amount of control we have on the field with a 30 man spear unit backed by BSB and general ld is game breaking. Prior to 8th edition I have never felt my DE having such a solid battleline which makes all those important multi charges so much easier to pull off despite the changes to movement rules.

As for DE in gaming, I've fielded 40 RXBmen from day 1 in 8th edition using the same principle I used since 6th. Prioritize a target and focus fire on it till it drops or becomes soft enough for my other units to mop them up. Shadow makes this easier with Miasma and Withering and so far I've taken out pretty much everything from Marauder hordes to Bloodthirsters and Mot Knights. To sum it all up DE still needs to just focus on taking oout targets one at a time be it using magic, shooting or melee. Though we may have the cheapest units when compared to the other two elven armies, I still stand by the idea that every elf unit should be preserved and only be sacrificed when the situation is dire. Hit fast and hard as always against one target then move on to the next is my take on DE.

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Sat Mar 19, 2011 2:52 pm
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Well as for batteries, I assume you mean for the Sacrifical Dagger...? In which case, for a cheap battery that doesn't waste too many points, how about a unit of 10-12 spearmen w' shields and no command or RXB's? That way the sorceress can't be picked out(except by Hochland Rifles, etc.) and the unit's not enough of a threat to be bothered shooting at...?

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Sun Mar 20, 2011 4:57 pm
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The problem with a small unit of spears is that one really needs a lot more spearmen to effectively use the sac dagger and get past heavy magic defences (empire and dwarf get extra power dice, high elf can steal a power die, daemons can have multiple dispel gifts unless comped). I almost always start out with a single dice Power of darkness cast and sac if the roll is low. I typically use 2+ average sacs per turn, absent a miscast ending the casting earlier (sac dagger almost always ensures no loss of concentration).
Also, I find that war machines and spells (dwellers often gets off with irresistable force with six dice rolled) often target the spearmen unit with the lvl 4, so a 25 to 30 model unit will often be down to 10 to 15 and occasionally reduced to a handful even with ironcurse icon and standard of discipline to reduce the risk of panics.


Sun Mar 20, 2011 10:34 pm
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Joined: Tue May 04, 2010 10:18 pm
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Noble Korhedron wrote:
Well as for batteries, I assume you mean for the Sacrifical Dagger...? In which case, for a cheap battery that doesn't waste too many points, how about a unit of 10-12 spearmen w' shields and no command or RXB's? That way the sorceress can't be picked out(except by Hochland Rifles, etc.) and the unit's not enough of a threat to be bothered shooting at...?


Most players will know you have the sac dagger when you place a sorceress in a small bunker of warriors. If it's a bunker of 10-15 models it can easily be routed/annihilated by shooting or magic, so don't count on the opponent ignoring them.


Sun Mar 20, 2011 10:42 pm
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Carolus wrote:
Noble Korhedron wrote:
Well as for batteries, I assume you mean for the Sacrifical Dagger...? In which case, for a cheap battery that doesn't waste too many points, how about a unit of 10-12 spearmen w' shields and no command or RXB's? That way the sorceress can't be picked out(except by Hochland Rifles, etc.) and the unit's not enough of a threat to be bothered shooting at...?


Most players will know you have the sac dagger when you place a sorceress in a small bunker of warriors. If it's a bunker of 10-15 models it can easily be routed/annihilated by shooting or magic, so don't count on the opponent ignoring them.
Ah, O.K. Well in that case, I would simply place here in 20 or so RXB men, with mus. and standard. I give standards to most of my units now due to that 'breaking point' scenario.....

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Sun Mar 20, 2011 10:53 pm
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Noble

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Well I am assuming with shadow lore, she can switch places with the Dread Lord and Assassin after successfully casting a spell. So at first I might keep her in the Corsair unit, then I can switch places with the Dread Lord in the Crossbow unit and retreat to a safe distance while CC unfolds. Finally if I need to, I can switch places with the assassin. I think between the three units, I can spread the sacrificing out and also give my sorceress some great vantage points for casting spells and even using the black dragon egg.

I think putting her in the shades and casting the pendulum spell at war machines could be fun, or even pit of shades.

I really don't like the idea of taking a spear unit of any size and having them sit back and guard my sorceress. Crossbows can do the same thing and they can contribute to the rest of the battle by shooting.

Can a sorceress use power of darkness with other magic lores?


Sun Mar 20, 2011 11:53 pm
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I don't think Power of Darkness could be used with other Lores, but I suppose you could try it unless there's a very specific rule banning that..... It would be fairer to ask your local GW staff rulesguy though, I.M.O.
And what does a black dragon egg do?! :?

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Mon Mar 21, 2011 12:11 am
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