An Interesting Question About Morathi...

[Sweeping death]

I think that there are two reasons Malekith has no children (among others). The first being that he literally plans to live for ever, and so doesn't either need heirs, or want them (in case they plot to take over). And the second reason is that Morathi does not want to share her influence over her son with anyone, so a serious wife or lover is out of the question, though whether by his agreement or her manipulation is hard to say. Probably some of each.

Despite the good reasoning, I´m still not convinced and never really got why Malekith never had any liaison. A political marriage to a powerful HE King would have gone far to support his bid for the Phoenix Throne. In fact, more so than any crazy cultists...
And this point of him not even having an affair in thousands of years
is, IMO, one of the major weak points in the Malekith novel, as it deprives the character of an extremely important aspect of life and, hence, of depth. At least they should have come with a very good explanation to it. As it is, it seems more like a lapse..

So I like the alternative plot. And, to (kind of...) keep the Star Wars theme, that son has to become the male sorcerer from the prophecy, who will wield dark power and destroy the Witch King (and bring balance.. )

[Overmind]

And this point of him not even having an affair in thousands of years
is, IMO, one of the major weak points in the Malekith novel, as it deprives the character of an extremely important aspect of life and, hence, of depth. At least they should have come with a very good explanation to it. As it is, it seems more like a lapse..

It was actually one of the better parts of the book for me. It made him seem more focused on his goal, ignoring all others. That he'd already abandoned the thought of a family life, that he'd given up anything and everything that might have proven to be a distraction from his goal.

And he wanted to succeed, because it was already his. Sure a political marriage might have helped(I refuse to judge the tangled weave that is elven politics). He views Ulthuan as his, none others and to marry would be to share it, even if in name only. I'm half convinced he'd kill his mother if he ever took over.

That and I personally get thrown out of a book when straight romance is brought in or heavily focused upon, which to properly write an affair on someone as intense as malekith it would need to be to accurately portray his motivations and emotions. Although this personal bit is not the major motivator, though it did help me hate Alith Anar(not that it needed any help).

[Norelle]

I think that there are two reasons Malekith has no children (among others). The first being that he literally plans to live for ever, and so doesn't either need heirs, or want them (in case they plot to take over). And the second reason is that Morathi does not want to share her influence over her son with anyone, so a serious wife or lover is out of the question, though whether by his agreement or her manipulation is hard to say. Probably some of each.

Despite the good reasoning, I´m still not convinced and never really got why Malekith never had any liaison. A political marriage to a powerful HE King would have gone far to support his bid for the Phoenix Throne. In fact, more so than any crazy cultists...
And this point of him not even having an affair in thousands of years
is, IMO, one of the major weak points in the Malekith novel, as it deprives the character of an extremely important aspect of life and, hence, of depth. At least they should have come with a very good explanation to it. As it is, it seems more like a lapse..

So I like the alternative plot. And, to (kind of...) keep the Star Wars theme, that son has to become the male sorcerer from the prophecy, who will wield dark power and destroy the Witch King (and bring balance.. )

Heh, I got a couple of alternative plots acutally with two different Elf maidens, the second one he actually becomes Phoenix King in...and isn't crispfied, well actually it's still in the planning stage but that is kinda my idea so far...the other is more thought out. I'm still looking for a partner to do them with...

[Saintofm]

Yeha, but 5000 years without anything? Espesialy if the cults are around? Their influence had to have reached the colonies, and I doubt elves have anymore control of their more baser urges than humans do (or if they do, can, can only do they can't have perfect dominion of it).

After all, since when has Malekeith been the kind of person to HOLD BACK? He's not exactly famous for being very subtle.

[Overmind]

I know human beings who have no interest in sex either, it's called asexuality, not everyone has the same baser urges. Nor does everyone need to fulfill them to the same degree. ;-) How are we supposed to know what levles of self control elves are capable of? Or whether their sexuality spectrum is anything like our own. Not exactly something GW or the BL covers, very much on purpose.

And we are talking someone who lit himself on fire, earned the wrath of a god, and then through spite and confidence restored his rule and conquered a people who are some of the most backstabbing traitor there are, and yet somehow is quite possibly not even plotted against. How's that for willpower?

[Red...]

Yeha, but 5000 years without anything?

He was charred and disfigured by the flames of Asuryan. Who knows if he's still fully functional...

After all, since when has Malekeith been the kind of person to HOLD BACK? He's not exactly famous for being very subtle.

Read your elf history. Malekith is incredibly restrained and subtle when he wants to be. That's how he insiduously cultivates the growth of the pleasure cults within High Elf society, fosters the secret police efforts (I forget their exact name) and is only uncovered when he claims the Phoenix King himself is a traitor and committed suicide rather than face justice. It's only then that he is forced into action and begins the Elven Civil War.

Heh, I got a couple of alternative plots acutally with two different Elf maidens, the second one he actually becomes Phoenix King in...and isn't crispfied, well actually it's still in the planning stage but that is kinda my idea so far...the other is more thought out. I'm still looking for a partner to do them with...

Why not write your own fantasy from scratch rather than relying on someone else's lore? It's much more interesting for both you as a writer and your audience.

[Saintofm]

I know human beings who have no interest in sex either, it's called asexuality, not everyone has the same baser urges. Nor does everyone need to fulfill them to the same degree. ;-) How are we supposed to know what levles of self control elves are capable of? Or whether their sexuality spectrum is anything like our own. Not exactly something GW or the BL covers, very much on purpose.

And we are talking someone who lit himself on fire, earned the wrath of a god, and then through spite and confidence restored his rule and conquered a people who are some of the most backstabbing traitor there are, and yet somehow is quite possibly not even plotted against. How's that for willpower?

IF the 6th ed part about mal and Morathi's relationship being "unnatural" is still valed in the current edition, I'd say that rules out asexuality, though that might have something to do with the why he didn't have any off the battlefeild actionbetween leaving for the battlefield and going Darth Vader.

As for typical elf, Malus Dark Blade is your poster boy for the dark elves and the three constants he has on his mind throughout his whole life is wine, a desire to find a hot woman, and battle.

[Overmind]

Not necessarily, asexuals can have sex. They just don't really feel the need to. His relationship with his mother can be a twisted Oedipal complex, or a very strange mother/son relationship, possibly built up after he was burnt, sort of her way of showing she still loves him just as much, and he accepts it as his due.

I didn't really notice the hot women bit as much in the darkblade books. However, Malus Darkblade is not necessarily representative of every druchii, though he is, at the moment, our poster boy. Once again, his novels do not explore elven sexuality as it is very much against Black Library's policy to do so.

[Sweeping death]

Well, the overriding focus is exactly what made the character seem flat to me. Malekith is a complex being, he should have a very complex psychology. OK, they could have deliberately chosen to have him as an assexual, but then I´d liked to have a very good explanation for that, as, IMO, it doesn´t fit the rest of his personallity very well.

And I don´t see why a fantasy story should not have loving emotions and sexual desire, quite the contrary actually. Elves are not christian, there is no sexual repression going on in Ulthuan and certainly not in Naggarond. IMO, It would fit the "Roman" style theme of the druchii better if Malekith had been a womanizing Ceaser guy, or at least a calculating Augustus guy.

And yes, elven politics should be very complex, but I find exactly the whole part of the plot and scheming for the coup d'état rather unconvincing. Marriages and alliances between families surely are extremely important political tools and I´d guess that this is even more so in elven society.

The twisted relationship with Morathi is always hinted on, but hasn´t been that explicit and at the time of the Malekith novel it doesn´t appear at all with that strenght. I don´t think it would hinder him from having affairs and relationships during the over 1000 years in the colonies, far away from Morathi´s eyes.

But anyway, it´s just my opinion. I find it strange and incongruent with the personality of Malekith and with my "suspension of disbelief" regarding Elven politics.[/i]

[Norelle]

Well, the overriding focus is exactly what made the character seem flat to me. Malekith is a complex being, he should have a very complex psychology. OK, they could have deliberately chosen to have him as an assexual, but then I´d liked to have a very good explanation for that, as, IMO, it doesn´t fit the rest of his personallity very well.

And I don´t see why a fantasy story should not have loving emotions and sexual desire, quite the contrary actually. Elves are not christian, there is no sexual repression going on in Ulthuan and certainly not in Naggarond. IMO, It would fit the "Roman" style theme of the druchii better if Malekith had been a womanizing Ceaser guy, or at least a calculating Augustus guy.

And yes, elven politics should be very complex, but I find exactly the whole part of the plot and scheming for the coup d'état rather unconvincing. Marriages and alliances between families surely are extremely important political tools and I´d guess that this is even more so in elven society.

The twisted relationship with Morathi is always hinted on, but hasn´t been that explicit and at the time of the Malekith novel it doesn´t appear at all with that strenght. I don´t think it would hinder him from having affairs and relationships during the over 1000 years in the colonies, far away from Morathi´s eyes.

But anyway, it´s just my opinion. I find it strange and incongruent with the personality of Malekith and with my "suspension of disbelief" regarding Elven politics.[/i]

Yeah, that's my main problem, is when he's in the colonies and Morathi is not around...

Why not write your own fantasy from scratch rather than relying on someone else's lore? It's much more interesting for both you as a writer and your audience.

I'm much better at writing fanfiction and AUs than I am at writing original stories is the main reason, and even then I prefer to roleplay it out because I need someone to help me.

[Overmind]

We have very different outloos on this it seems. I find the idea of humanizing the Elves and by extension Malekith repulsive. The idea that he needs a wife and children to be a proper character, or that his sexuality must be mentioned to do so is, to me, representative of some of my most hated features of our culture.

With no offence intended to those who are attempting to write their own stories, which they should feel free to do, the concept strikes me as infantile. The idea that someone must breed to contribute is laughable. Heck even biology has discarded that concept.

For you, his lack of spousal/romantic interactions is a weakness of character. For me, it is either that he did not have those ineractions or that they were irrelevant to the story. I found through most of Malekith, he had given up on ruling Ulthuan(no need for political marriage), and that after he has his realization upon seeing the sword of khaine as a scepter he departs for the cold north, only to return and be plunged into war.

Sure he could have had sexual interactions while out in the colonies, I'm not certain it matters or should have been mentioned.

Although now, I'm going to write a fanfic pairing malekith and the dwarf king. They seem to have spent a lot of time together(perhaps another reason malekith never wed, spent more time hanging with dwarves than elves). Makes as much sense as anything.

However, to answer the original question, I think she'd eat it.

[Drainial]

Let’s be honest Malekith was a book that was very light on the details; there was barely time for a brief narrative. The main points of the story were not covered in all that much detail so I can't think that adding a romantic interest would have made it a better story. His character was hardly developed at all during the whole book as it was.

[Overmind]

True, that is a weakness of the entire sundering series, it attempts to cover to great a span of time, and three very complex characters. Not something to be accomplished in any detail so quickly.

[Norelle]

The main reason for me giving Malekith girlfriends/wives, is because I have a crush on him, mainly Pre-Sundering, to each their own, I'm just saying that's why I wondered about it and wanted to do it.

[Syjahel]

We have very different outloos on this it seems. I find the idea of humanizing the Elves and by extension Malekith repulsive. The idea that he needs a wife and children to be a proper character, or that his sexuality must be mentioned to do so is, to me, representative of some of my most hated features of our culture.

With no offence intended to those who are attempting to write their own stories, which they should feel free to do, the concept strikes me as infantile. The idea that someone must breed to contribute is laughable. Heck even biology has discarded that concept.

For you, his lack of spousal/romantic interactions is a weakness of character. For me, it is either that he did not have those ineractions or that they were irrelevant to the story. I found through most of Malekith, he had given up on ruling Ulthuan(no need for political marriage), and that after he has his realization upon seeing the sword of khaine as a scepter he departs for the cold north, only to return and be plunged into war.

Sure he could have had sexual interactions while out in the colonies, I'm not certain it matters or should have been mentioned.

*bows* You've summed up my own views perfectly. I want to know more about Malekith's motivations, his personality, but who he does or doesn't sleep with is a tiny facet of the whole. And there would have been even less time for what little character development he got if there had been a token romantic subplot (like in Shadow King ...) taking up space.

Of course, views differ, but these match mine. As you say, each to their own, and all that. One can always speculate.

[Norelle]

We have very different outloos on this it seems. I find the idea of humanizing the Elves and by extension Malekith repulsive. The idea that he needs a wife and children to be a proper character, or that his sexuality must be mentioned to do so is, to me, representative of some of my most hated features of our culture.

With no offence intended to those who are attempting to write their own stories, which they should feel free to do, the concept strikes me as infantile. The idea that someone must breed to contribute is laughable. Heck even biology has discarded that concept.

For you, his lack of spousal/romantic interactions is a weakness of character. For me, it is either that he did not have those ineractions or that they were irrelevant to the story. I found through most of Malekith, he had given up on ruling Ulthuan(no need for political marriage), and that after he has his realization upon seeing the sword of khaine as a scepter he departs for the cold north, only to return and be plunged into war.

Sure he could have had sexual interactions while out in the colonies, I'm not certain it matters or should have been mentioned.

*bows* You've summed up my own views perfectly. I want to know more about Malekith's motivations, his personality, but who he does or doesn't sleep with is a tiny facet of the whole. And there would have been even less time for what little character development he got if there had been a token romantic subplot (like in Shadow King ...) taking up space.

Of course, views differ, but these match mine. As you say, each to their own, and all that. One can always speculate.

Like I said, my whole thing for getting Malekith married is due to my being female and having an infatuation with him. XD

[Overmind]

Oh I'm a gay male with a crush on him too. But I feel no need to write stories. Of course if you want to pair him up, I suppose you should feel free. It is your time after all.

[Norelle]

Oh I'm a *** male with a crush on him too. But I feel no need to write stories. Of course if you want to pair him up, I suppose you should feel free. It is your time after all.

Hehehe, like I said to each his own, I like to picture him as married and a daddy, you prefer to picture asexual and single.

[Red...]

Oh I'm a *** male with a crush on him too.

Perhaps Malekith is a *** male too. I'm not sure that's a word that needs to be *** though?

[Saintofm]

A large chunk of my thinking comes from the fact of alot of the real world countries the elves seem to have alot of similarities to (Greeks, Romans, Japanese, Chinese, Druids), each of them having either a strong sensual side or a god/goddess dedicated to that purpose.

Yes humanizing a none human is a bit redundant, but it makes them relatable (think of it as a written form of the Uncanny valley, where if you give something obviously none human human traits their humanity shows out more, while giving them too much creeps people out).

[Norelle]

A large chunk of my thinking comes from the fact of alot of the real world countries the elves seem to have alot of similarities to (Greeks, Romans, Japanese, Chinese, Druids), each of them having either a strong sensual side or a god/goddess dedicated to that purpose.

Yes humanizing a none human is a bit redundant, but it makes them relatable (think of it as a written form of the Uncanny valley, where if you give something obviously none human human traits their humanity shows out more, while giving them too much creeps people out).

Exactly!!! ^.^

[Sweeping death]

We have very different outloos on this it seems. I find the idea of humanizing the Elves and by extension Malekith repulsive. The idea that he needs a wife and children to be a proper character, or that his sexuality must be mentioned to do so is, to me, representative of some of my most hated features of our culture.


For you, his lack of spousal/romantic interactions is a weakness of character. For me, it is either that he did not have those ineractions or that they were irrelevant to the story. I found through most of Malekith, he had given up on ruling Ulthuan(no need for political marriage), and that after he has his realization upon seeing the sword of khaine as a scepter he departs for the cold north, only to return and be plunged into war.

Sure he could have had sexual interactions while out in the colonies, I'm not certain it matters or should have been mentioned.

I don´t see why concerns about love and desire are more "humanizing" than those about power, glory, duty, revenge and other motivations that appear in the book and in fantasy/sci fi literature in general. In a certain way, human psychology and human historical societies are always the point of reference for other imagined races, although I agree with you that there should be an effort to make elves more "alien".

Also, I don´t think that his description as someone that did not went after marriage and getting children is in anyway a character flaw, I just find the whole point of ignoring the whole aspect of love and sex strange. If the book had explored in any way an assexual or even homosexual tendency of Malekith, I´d have found it rather interesting.

Regarding the marriage issue specifically, I really think that concerns about producing heirs would be expected from the ruling Prince of a major Kingdom and dynasty. His subjects certainly would be concerned about it. Even Malekith were actually a- or homosexual. All of that would have been quite interesting conflicts, actually.

And ok, there is the problem of time span etc. But I just think that these emotions and motivations are quite important and interesting for any character (in the meaning of fictional character) development and storyline. There were some roughly 600 pages of story, after all.

[Norelle]

We have very different outloos on this it seems. I find the idea of humanizing the Elves and by extension Malekith repulsive. The idea that he needs a wife and children to be a proper character, or that his sexuality must be mentioned to do so is, to me, representative of some of my most hated features of our culture.


For you, his lack of spousal/romantic interactions is a weakness of character. For me, it is either that he did not have those ineractions or that they were irrelevant to the story. I found through most of Malekith, he had given up on ruling Ulthuan(no need for political marriage), and that after he has his realization upon seeing the sword of khaine as a scepter he departs for the cold north, only to return and be plunged into war.

Sure he could have had sexual interactions while out in the colonies, I'm not certain it matters or should have been mentioned.

I don´t see why concerns about love and desire are more "humanizing" than those about power, glory, duty, revenge and other motivations that appear in the book and in fantasy/sci fi literature in general. In a certain way, human psychology and human historical societies are always the point of reference for other imagined races, although I agree with you that there should be an effort to make elves more "alien".

Also, I don´t think that his description as someone that did not went after marriage and getting children is in anyway a character flaw, I just find the whole point of ignoring the whole aspect of love and sex strange. If the book had explored in any way an assexual or even homosexual tendency of Malekith, I´d have found it rather interesting.

Regarding the marriage issue specifically, I really think that concerns about producing heirs would be expected from the ruling Prince of a major Kingdom and dynasty. His subjects certainly would be concerned about it. Even Malekith were actually a- or homosexual. All of that would have been quite interesting conflicts, actually.

And ok, there is the problem of time span etc. But I just think that these emotions and motivations are quite important and interesting for any character (in the meaning of fictional character) development and storyline. There were some roughly 600 pages of story, after all.

You actually are covering a lot of my problems with no mention of sexual interaction of any sort with Malekith, and even if he hadn't thought about ruling Ulthuan, he still was Prince of Nagarythe, and thus he had to provide heirs for the line, as it never mentions him living forever in the book befor ehe becomes the Witch King really, but it talks about continuing his father's line and he would have needed kids for that. And after all, they added Alith Anar's, brief liasons, why not Malekith's?

[Saintofm]

We have very different outloos on this it seems. I find the idea of humanizing the Elves and by extension Malekith repulsive. The idea that he needs a wife and children to be a proper character, or that his sexuality must be mentioned to do so is, to me, representative of some of my most hated features of our culture.


For you, his lack of spousal/romantic interactions is a weakness of character. For me, it is either that he did not have those ineractions or that they were irrelevant to the story. I found through most of Malekith, he had given up on ruling Ulthuan(no need for political marriage), and that after he has his realization upon seeing the sword of khaine as a scepter he departs for the cold north, only to return and be plunged into war.

Sure he could have had sexual interactions while out in the colonies, I'm not certain it matters or should have been mentioned.

I don´t see why concerns about love and desire are more "humanizing" than those about power, glory, duty, revenge and other motivations that appear in the book and in fantasy/sci fi literature in general. In a certain way, human psychology and human historical societies are always the point of reference for other imagined races, although I agree with you that there should be an effort to make elves more "alien".

Also, I don´t think that his description as someone that did not went after marriage and getting children is in anyway a character flaw, I just find the whole point of ignoring the whole aspect of love and sex strange. If the book had explored in any way an assexual or even homosexual tendency of Malekith, I´d have found it rather interesting.

Regarding the marriage issue specifically, I really think that concerns about producing heirs would be expected from the ruling Prince of a major Kingdom and dynasty. His subjects certainly would be concerned about it. Even Malekith were actually a- or homosexual. All of that would have been quite interesting conflicts, actually.

And ok, there is the problem of time span etc. But I just think that these emotions and motivations are quite important and interesting for any character (in the meaning of fictional character) development and storyline. There were some roughly 600 pages of story, after all.

You actually are covering a lot of my problems with no mention of sexual interaction of any sort with Malekith, and even if he hadn't thought about ruling Ulthuan, he still was Prince of Nagarythe, and thus he had to provide heirs for the line, as it never mentions him living forever in the book befor ehe becomes the Witch King really, but it talks about continuing his father's line and he would have needed kids for that. And after all, they added Alith Anar's, brief liasons, why not Malekith's?

Exactly. He hadn't been gone the rout of Darth Vader yet, and he would have needed to continue his legacy. Obviously one of his half siblings had to have gotten it on at one point as Malekith is still dealing his his grand, grand, grand, grand, grand, grand, grand, grand, grand, grand nephews, I doubt Malekeith would want to be left out of someone finishing his works and glories.

Also, another thing about elves and sexuality: Current fluff stats that Aritha is the goddess of all things kinki, which goes in line with the Greek and Roman equivalent Venus (I'm going with the one I can spell) who was predominantly the goddess of sex. That there shows the elves have a very passionate sensual side.

[Norelle]

We have very different outloos on this it seems. I find the idea of humanizing the Elves and by extension Malekith repulsive. The idea that he needs a wife and children to be a proper character, or that his sexuality must be mentioned to do so is, to me, representative of some of my most hated features of our culture.


For you, his lack of spousal/romantic interactions is a weakness of character. For me, it is either that he did not have those ineractions or that they were irrelevant to the story. I found through most of Malekith, he had given up on ruling Ulthuan(no need for political marriage), and that after he has his realization upon seeing the sword of khaine as a scepter he departs for the cold north, only to return and be plunged into war.

Sure he could have had sexual interactions while out in the colonies, I'm not certain it matters or should have been mentioned.

I don´t see why concerns about love and desire are more "humanizing" than those about power, glory, duty, revenge and other motivations that appear in the book and in fantasy/sci fi literature in general. In a certain way, human psychology and human historical societies are always the point of reference for other imagined races, although I agree with you that there should be an effort to make elves more "alien".

Also, I don´t think that his description as someone that did not went after marriage and getting children is in anyway a character flaw, I just find the whole point of ignoring the whole aspect of love and sex strange. If the book had explored in any way an assexual or even homosexual tendency of Malekith, I´d have found it rather interesting.

Regarding the marriage issue specifically, I really think that concerns about producing heirs would be expected from the ruling Prince of a major Kingdom and dynasty. His subjects certainly would be concerned about it. Even Malekith were actually a- or homosexual. All of that would have been quite interesting conflicts, actually.

And ok, there is the problem of time span etc. But I just think that these emotions and motivations are quite important and interesting for any character (in the meaning of fictional character) development and storyline. There were some roughly 600 pages of story, after all.

You actually are covering a lot of my problems with no mention of sexual interaction of any sort with Malekith, and even if he hadn't thought about ruling Ulthuan, he still was Prince of Nagarythe, and thus he had to provide heirs for the line, as it never mentions him living forever in the book befor ehe becomes the Witch King really, but it talks about continuing his father's line and he would have needed kids for that. And after all, they added Alith Anar's, brief liasons, why not Malekith's?

Exactly. He hadn't been gone the rout of Darth Vader yet, and he would have needed to continue his legacy. Obviously one of his half siblings had to have gotten it on at one point as Malekith is still dealing his his grand, grand, grand, grand, grand, grand, grand, grand, grand, grand nephews, I doubt Malekeith would want to be left out of someone finishing his works and glories.

Also, another thing about elves and sexuality: Current fluff stats that Aritha is the goddess of all things kinki, which goes in line with the Greek and Roman equivalent Venus (I'm going with the one I can spell) who was predominantly the goddess of sex. That there shows the elves have a very passionate sensual side.

They're just very good at hiding it then...Who knows perhaps if he had married and started a family it might have actually helped him become Phoenix King...
I still wonder what Morathi would be like as a grandmother, as that was the original topic question...