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Standardising a List 
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Malekith's Personal Guard

Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2010 2:50 pm
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Location: Kittenmarsh
I usually run HEAVILY on experimentation, even in Tourney, as I find 'Win/Lose' superfluous in my personal life. I have however been advised to become more competitive, lest I lose points in Gamesmanship (noone likes a pushover, I'd guess lol).

I run fairly vanilla in my lists, so what I'm gong to do is build a 2500 point list here, as I have time (mine appears to be SHORT with work this month...)

Starting with Core @ 632 pts
14 RXB Musician
12 RXB Musician & Shields
30 Corsair FC, SSS

I should note, that this will attempt to be an All Comers list but the majority of players in my area are:

D. Elves (ala Azure.)
Empire
Wood Elves
O & G
VC
WoC
Dwarves
Beastmen
Lizardmen
and a H. Elf player I can never seem to beat lol

I'm changing tactics, and playing with a chunk of Corsairs to stop running, and have a lot of KB (CoB synergy) rain down upon the weak. and 42 shots raining down HAS to be good somewhere, esp. with a Fire or other buff.

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Tue Jun 14, 2011 1:34 am
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Highborn
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Sorry for being and ass but 30 Corsairs FC with SSS is sub- competitive as an all comers choice imo. People who love this unit can throw rocks at me now really.

30 spears is the competitive all comer's choice.
20 RXB muso, banner comes next.
Harpies are a no brainer.


On a personal note, you should mostly come up on top of HE, but I will be the first to admit that it will always be a bloody mess no matter the outcome. :roll:

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Tue Jun 14, 2011 2:51 am
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Executioner
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I actually struggle to defeat HE because I'm use to relying on striking first at a higher or equal I, and because we usually have the reroll to hit advantage. (kind of why I struggle to beat beastmen too)

Kind of why I've sucked it up and have taken a unit of 20 RxB along with my other small shooting/harassing elements :L

30 Spears is indeed the competitive all comers choice. Corsairs of that size is sub par to it, and I have ran 28 RHB AP ones before, even then, it was only okay-ish.

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Jacks -Shade
- WS 5 - - S 3 - - T 2 - - D 6 - - I 5 -

Equipment
Short Sword, MC Long Sword*, Dagger, RxB & RHB [20/10] MC Shade Cloak, 4 Throwing Daggers, 3x Healing Vials, 451C, [3]Dark Venom, [4]Unseen Chains, Food, Dark Steed- Spike

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Eye of the Jabberwock

*Magical properties possibly imbued


Tue Jun 14, 2011 5:55 am
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Lord of the Dragon Caves
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One thing everyone needs to keep in mind is that this list of units is just barely over the 25% core requirement, so some of the changes suggested (downgrade from corsairs to spears) would require a commensurate increase in core points.

That being said, I think I need to know something about your character set-up before commenting on core. For example, do you intend to run a level 4 with the Dagger? If so, I think you need spearmen for fuel. Are you running a cauldron? If so, I think a unit or two of Dark Riders would be a good choice since +1 attack makes them really excel at taking down enemy light troops and war machine and even lets them reliably assassinate squishy characters like wizards.

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Tue Jun 14, 2011 1:37 pm
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Malekith's Personal Guard

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Post 
Ichiyo1821 wrote:
30 spears is the competitive all comer's choice.
20 RXB muso, banner comes next.


I'm actually putting this up part by part for the specific crit, so it's not assishness (btw: that word now rules, and is officially in my vocabulary!!!) because you provided a critIQUE (vs critICISM. I rarely trust -ISM's), which meant you had a viable reason and alternative.

See, I just screw around with numbers and stuff. The list I'm showing is for 2500 (for clarification as I build) so I'm aiming for 625. The units I chose were simply for the fact that I can

survive vs missile fire while crossing the field a tad more easily
face a 6*5 at someone, and have 25 (19+6) attacks vs (6+6+6) 18 attacks.
more successfully chase people down- for some reason, I ALWAYS blow my pursue rolls lol

I wouldn't ask why 30 Spears instead of 30 Corsair. I would ask: Shields? War Bann? and point-wise, wouldn't 43-44 be approximately equal to 30 Cor?

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Sat Jun 18, 2011 9:25 pm
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Malekith's Personal Guard

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Oh, and I suck with Harpies for some reason. I can put them in to neutralise Archers or hold a unit for the round it takes to cross the board, but for some reason, they just disrupt my killzoning. The weird thing is, I do GREAT with Shades and a Sin w/ the standard equip. (Manbane, AHW, Rending Stars)

I liked your question Dyvim, ty.

This is actually easiest to answer. Although I rotate my Magic sets often, I generally carry the Scholar build (Lv. 2 Sorc. w/ Seal and Tome) a CoB, or a Master with AoD and Dawnstone (easily my fave speedbump lol). I'm trimming the Master out for a Standard list now.

For Lords, I'm doing the Unkillable DLord (D. Peg with a Relic Sword, so far), and S. Sorc (Lv. 4) BUT... I think I'm going to use something that has worked VERY well for me and go Feedback Scroll. I know it's 50 pts, but it works out well in destroying the Magic Phase.

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Sat Jun 18, 2011 9:45 pm
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Malekith's Personal Guard

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I'm actually at the narrowing and harrowing phase, even considering the Spears:

6 Harpies
5 Shades
1 Assassin (Rending Stars, AHW, Manbane)
1 Chariot
10 Execs (no Command)
20 Wych w/ a Muso
20 BG, FC, AP Banner, Crim Death
12 COK, FC, Hag Graef, Whip of Agony (or Ring of Hotek)

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Sat Jun 18, 2011 10:17 pm
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Malekith's Personal Guard

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ok. having do 2500 tomorrow:

46 Spears, Shields, FC, Discipline Bann.
12 RXB Muso.
12 RXB Muso.
+626
15 BG FC, Murder, Crim Death (20 for 3K)
8 COK, FC, Hag Graef, "Sword" of Agony (11 for 3K)
(for 3K, I add 10 Wych w/ a Muso.)
+584
1 War Hydra (2 for 3K)
1 RBT
+275
1 Sorc. L. 2 (Dark), Tome, Seal
1 C o B (BSB)
+405
1 Sup Sorc. L. 4 (Shadow) Feedback Scroll
1 DreadLord Dark Peg., Relic Sword, D. Helm, P o K, Crown of Comm
+605

2495

Critastic :D?

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Sun Jun 19, 2011 3:00 am
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Malekith's Personal Guard

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Post 
The Quick and the Dead List
9 DR- Muso, XBows
20 RXB- Muso, Shields
27 Spears- Muso, Bann, Std of Discipline, Shields
As a note, I would be willing to pay the 5 points I have spare, drop 3 RXB, and put 6 more Spears into the unit for near equal points.
+626
151 1 Assassin- Manbane, Rending Stars
66 6 Harpies
(+217; in parentheses as they don't 'officially count')

1 Cold One Chariot
5 Shades EHW, Lt. Armour
20 Wych Elves Muso, Bann, Bann of Swiftness
11 COK- FC, Bann of Hag Graef
+765

1 War Hydra
1 RBT
+275

1 Sup Sorc. L. 4 (Pick your fave) Feedback Scroll, Guiding Eye
1 DreadLord Hvy. Armour, SDC, Dragon Helm, Cold One, PoK, Crown, Soul Render
+612

2495 again :D

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Sun Jun 26, 2011 11:23 pm
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Shields cost 1 pt. per model, but the additional pip of armor helps against s3 shooting, s3 core which is good enough imo to spend 30 points on as compared to 5 more bodies at 6+as. The exception would be if you want to use them exclusively as a battery for the sacrificial dagger and have another 30 man spear to hold stuff.

Give Harpies another try and use them as sacrificial bait to execute a counter charge. Park it 1" diagonally away against a unit you need to redirect where he has no choice but to charge it (or shoot it but again keep it from LOS of shooters). He takes the Harpies and wipes them out, regardless if he overruns or reforms, you should be in the position to multi counter charge that unit. Works best against deathstars and frenzied units as baits. Remember that frenzied units need to charge as long as it is a possible charge. Frenzied cavalry for example can charge 7/8 + 12(swiftstride) so put your Harpies exactly 20" away. If he passes the test and marches, simply do as above and park the Harpies in front of him. If he fails the ld check to restrain the charge, he needs to roll 2 6's on 3d6 which is very unlikely (I still assume he can roll lucky though when I do this and position the Harpies carefully so that if he does get that lucky he won't overrun into my other units) he will fail a charge and move 6" forward at best. Rinse and repeat. There a lot of things you can do with Harpies that you can't do with Shades and vice versa. There are things you can do with either units.

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Mon Jun 27, 2011 2:47 am
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Post 
Ichiyo1821 wrote:
Sorry for being and ass but 30 Corsairs FC with SSS is sub- competitive as an all comers choice imo.


You don't play competitively much then I would guess?

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Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:09 am
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tmarichards wrote:
Ichiyo1821 wrote:
Sorry for being and ass but 30 Corsairs FC with SSS is sub- competitive as an all comers choice imo.


You don't play competitively much then I would guess?


Lol at that...you consider 30 Corsairs with SSS competitive I assume...

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New AB
W/D/L
32/1/0

9th Age
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Vae Victis
Character kill count -182

"To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill."

Armies
Dark Elves
Dark Eldar
Death Korps of Kreig


Tue Jun 28, 2011 6:57 am
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Cold One Knight

Joined: Sun Jul 11, 2010 2:00 pm
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Post 
Ichiyo1821 wrote:
Shields cost 1 pt. per model, but the additional pip of armor helps against s3 shooting, s3 core which is good enough imo to spend 30 points on as compared to 5 more bodies at 6+as. The exception would be if you want to use them exclusively as a battery for the sacrificial dagger and have another 30 man spear to hold stuff.


I agree, i would perhaps add one little exception, if he plans to throw them at something nasty with S5+ attacks like GW units, sphinx, spider,....


Tue Jun 28, 2011 8:38 am
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Post 
Ichiyo1821 wrote:
tmarichards wrote:
Ichiyo1821 wrote:
Sorry for being and ass but 30 Corsairs FC with SSS is sub- competitive as an all comers choice imo.


You don't play competitively much then I would guess?


Lol at that...you consider 30 Corsairs with SSS competitive I assume...


As a matter of fact, yes.

What has pretty much every successful Dark Elf list had in it for the last few months? Large Corsair block with the SSS.

Any unit that can throw out 50+ attacks, with re-rolls, at WS4 and I5, and with the ability to reliable and consistently boost those attacks to S8, is hardly not competitive. Frenzy is a downside, but very manageable.

I'm sorry, but I really do question a lot of your posts on this forum. From your W/D/L record I would expect a far better game sense, but you really do seem to lack competitive experience by saying something like Corsairs are not competitive.

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Tue Jun 28, 2011 10:04 am
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Generalissimo
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Quote:
I actually struggle to defeat HE because I'm use to relying on striking first at a higher or equal I, and because we usually have the reroll to hit advantage. (kind of why I struggle to beat beastmen too)


Quote:
and a H. Elf player I can never seem to beat lol


Yup, I seem to beat every opponent reliably these days, except for high elves, who generally destroy me.

I think Meteor has hit the nail on the head as to one reason why: I'm so used to being able to throw my units forward and enjoy striking first with re-rolls to hit that facing an army that strikes first always throws me off.

But there are others too. Whereas their ASF was very nasty against us in 7th ed (our low toughness and poor armour saves on infantry made it hard to beat) and their magic spamming was horrible, we did still have some advantages against them, including hydras who were hard for them to kill; the fact that they could miss quite a few times when hitting us first, enabling our units to survive; our blackguard could negate or equal their ASF; cold one knights had good survivability; and magic defence such as the ring of hotek could really cause them problems.

Now, however, our hydras are easy to kill from flaming volley fire attacks (followed up by repeater bolt throwers once the regen has been removed); our units have no chance in close combat whatsoever as they strike first, re-roll their hits and get the extra ranks when doing so; our blackguard are easy to kill through massed volleyfire or ridiculous magic spells; as are our cold one knights; and their magic is now even better - still the same old dice spamming abilities, but now with truly hideous spells (dwellers below on your S3 units anyone? T7, 5+ save and 4+ ward save pheonix guard anyone?) and no ring of hotek to help!

Only tactics I have found that work against them so far is basically to turn the game into one big missile duel by taking loads of RxBs. But that a) goes against my play style and is b) ridiculously dull.


Quote:
Sorry for being and ass but 30 Corsairs FC with SSS is sub- competitive as an all comers choice imo. People who love this unit can throw rocks at me now really.


It would be helpful if you could say why you think this isn't competitive. I disagree, especially if he is running a cauldron. The unit gets 51 attacks basic against units in its front (with hatred of course) and with 6s now always wounding, that can add up to a huge stack of damage versus almost any opponent. The fact they are frenzied is a huge help too, as it makes them ITP. They also get the best save our infantry has versus missile fire (great if you end up facing a shooting heavy army). Supported by the cauldron they become either very nasty in combat (61 attacks of 51 KB attacks is very nice) or very hard to kill via missile fire (4+ AS followed by 5+ ward is very hard to get past, even for skilled missile troops). They're also quite cheap - the unit in question costs just 350 points - and core to boot.

For those endorsing spears versus corsairs, do remember that warriors are not ITP, have a 5+ save versus missile fire only if you buy them shields, lose that extra rank if they charge (reducing their attacks from 41 to 31), get commesurately less powerful as they lose models (a warriors unit with 10 models remaining gets just 11 attacks, a unit of corsairs with 10 models left gets 31 attacks still) and don't get the 6+ ward save from shield and handweapon in combat as they must now always use their spears. The two main advantages of warriors that I can see are: marginally cheaper, the ability to take a different 25 point banner (e.g. warbanner or banner of murder).

In comparisson then:

A unit of 30 SSS corsairs always gets 51 attacks basic to the front, whereas a unit of 40 warriors with shields gets 41 attacks to the front when it hasn't charge and just 31 when it has charged. Advantage: corsairs.

A unit of 30 SSS corsairs has less models than 41 warriors with shields, but a better save versus missile fire and the same save as in combat, making them more survivable.
Advantage: neither.

A unit of 30 SSS corsairs is frenzied and thus ITP until it loses a round of combat. A unit of 40 warriors with shields isn't.
Advantage: corsairs.

A unit of 30 SSS corsairs doesn't lose attacks when charging, whereas a unit of 40 warriors with shields does. This makes corsairs more psychologically manoeuverable.
Advantage: corsairs.

A unit of 30 SSS corsairs loses one attack per model killed, but has at least 31 attacks until the front rank starts to take casualties (e.g. it is reduced to less than 10 models). A unit of warriors loses one attack for every model killed, and has just 11 attacks left when its front rank is all that is left.
Advantage: corsairs.

A unit of 30 SSS corsairs cannot take another banner, whereas a unit of 40 warriors with shields can.
Advantage: warriors.

A unit of 30 SSS corsairs costs 350 points, whereas a unit of 40 warriors with shields costs 295 points.
Advantage: warriors

I don't see why 30 corsairs is less competitive.

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Tue Jun 28, 2011 10:18 am
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I wasn't comparing 30 Corsairs to Spearmen. I'm generalizing that I don't find 30 Man Corsairs as competitive to other choices...so what's pretty much up there is moot.

First, regardless of what formation they are in, I am paying 10 points per model to gain one s3 attack with supporting attacks. Now I look at units and gauge whether they competitive based on what it can offer on its own in a list. That is not to say I'm not looking for synergies, its saying I want a dependable unit given the most dire circumstance.

I've heard it over and over again, Corsairs are great with a COB, does unmatched wonders with Okkams can stand and shoot 2x before the charge etc etc but all of these options require me to dedicate another unit for it to be effective. That is something I dislike given that tournament players are already familiar with that strategy and will bend over backwards to see you don't get it.

I also don't like the idea that in order for such a big points investment I still need to buff a unit to handle situations where another unit could have handled it alone and still leave the rest of my army doing what it needs to somewhere else. Case and point, your 30 man unit gets hit by 12 KoTR (these are Brets mind you, poor initiative, t3 and you get to strike first, also core but less points, you get your maximum attacks in) chances are without any buffs you will bounce of them being s3, Bretts with a small frontage, strike back will hurt you more. Now replace that unit with 30 Witches with ap banner, BG, Hydra, 10COK (mind you you got charged) 30 Spears, 20 RXBmen, hell even 5 Harpies and the overall result you can get by replacing that unit without doing anything but holding nets more results. That is still not to say that Corsairs are totally useless. No. What I am driving at, imo given the current environment there are better choices than 30 Man Corsairs for what ever you need in your DE army (except maybe for getting rid of Slaves or Horde Marauders[not even sure of this one] and Men at Arms, that is where I think no DE unit can take out as effectively). Last note, suppose I need the COB's blessing to help a more critical combat or my Wizard miscasts or gets killed by Lore of Death spells, what now of the Corsairs? I never liked babysitting units.

My point is, Corsairs are a melee dedicated unit that needs a lot of points in. Now any unit that cannot effectively do its job without any assistance to consistently net results becomes less competitive in my book. Surgical coordinated strikes help you win but to rely on it too much becomes a weakness that can be exploited.

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Tue Jun 28, 2011 3:17 pm
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Quote:
Case and point, your 30 man unit gets hit by 12 KoTR (these are Brets mind you, poor initiative, t3 and you get to strike first, also core but less points, you get your maximum attacks in) chances are without any buffs you will bounce of them being s3, Bretts with a small frontage, strike back will hurt you more. Now replace that unit with 30 Witches with ap banner, BG, Hydra, 10COK (mind you you got charged) 30 Spears, 20 RXBmen, hell even 5 Harpies and the overall result you can get by replacing that unit without doing anything but holding nets more results.


So many problems with this example it's silly.

1) You're choosing a single favourable scenario and basing everything on it. Yes, you're right, witch elves are awesome in combat. That's pretty indisputable. But they're also very easy to kill by shooting. Odds are that the same Brett player has a big unit of bowmen who will rip your witches apart with volleyfire long before they get into combat with the Knights. Corsairs have a 4+ save versus bowfire, meaning that he will kill just 1 corsair for every 2 witches. Oh, and witch elves are special not core, so it's not a good comparisson anyway. You've also chosen a unit that has small frontage for a lot of attacks: this is certainly true for some units (chariots, monsters, lone characters, etc), but more often than not you will be facing a unit of between 5 and 10 models wide, giving you between 7 and 10 in contact. Your argument is based on a specific circumstance and not a general appraisal of the units, and is thus flawed and weak. (by the way, the expression is "case in point", not "case and point")

2) You can't have 30 black guard, you can only have 20. And they cost a lot more per model, have a worse armour save, so again, you'll lose a lot more to missile fire and magic missileas they cross the table, and it'll hurt more per model lost! Oh, btw 2attacks each with S4 bounces off 1+ armour saves just as much as three attacks each with S3. And again, black guard are special not core, so it's not a good comparisson.

3) Hydras are rare and cheesy. So it's not a remotely good comparisson.

4) Cold One Knights against charging Brett Knights have one S4 attack each against a 1+ armour save. That is considerably worse than 3 S3 attacks each. And again, they're a special choice, not core, so not a good comparisson.

5) 30 Spears - I already discussed this. See above. And trust me, a fewer number of S3 attacks is far worse than the corsairs' S3 attacks. At least it is a core choice though, so it is at least relevant.

6) 20 RxBs - Ummm...what? How is a very few S3 attacks better than the many of the corsairs? Yes, stand and shoot could be helpful, but if they're charging from less than 7" away then you can't do that and it's not even that devastating if you do. The two units serve completely different roles though - one is missile support and the other is melee damage. It's not a great comparisson, although they are at least both core choices.

7) 5 harpies? I don't think I even need to break this one down, as it's not exactly hard to figure out that 5 harpies are worse than 30 corsairs (no ranks, no hatred, ld6, etc etc)....it's a ridiculous comparisson tbh: harpies don't contribute to core requirements, serve a completely different role, have no armour save and cost a lot less for 5 of them.

Quote:
First, regardless of what formation they are in, I am paying 10 points per model to gain one s3 attack with supporting attacks.


No, and this is part of your issue:

1. You are paying 10 points for an ITP model who gives you 3 S3 attacks if he is in the front rank, meaning that you will always have at least 31 attacks until you have suffered 20 casualties. That's a huge difference.

2. There are zero models in the dark elf army book that will give you anything above S3 for 10 points or less. Witches are probably the closest you could get, as they have poison and can be given the AP banner, but they're special and have no armour save.

Quote:
I've heard it over and over again, Corsairs are great with a COB, does unmatched wonders with Okkams can stand and shoot 2x before the charge etc etc but all of these options require me to dedicate another unit for it to be effective.


If you keep hearing it, maybe you should listen. Maybe so many people are saying it because it's true? (although the 'can stand and shoot 2x before the charge' sounds fictional? unless you're refering to giving the champ two handbows or using ahw corsairs, which is definitely not advisable?)

Quote:
That is something I dislike given that tournament players are already familiar with that strategy and will bend over backwards to see you don't get it.


You could say that about most of our units and strategies. My opponent knows that I am going to try to cast power of darkness on two dice during every magic phase. Does that mean I shouldn't do it? No, that's ridiculous, it's a good strategy and it works. So why stop?

Quote:
I'm generalizing that I don't find 30 Man Corsairs as competitive to other choices...so what's pretty much up there is moot.


Hmmm, given that your other core choices are RxBs, warriors and dark riders, a comparisson of Corsairs with Warriors can hardly be seen as moot.

Quote:
Last note, suppose I need the COB's blessing to help a more critical combat or my Wizard miscasts or gets killed by Lore of Death spells, what now of the Corsairs? I never liked babysitting units.


SSS Corsairs have 3 attacks each, are ITP, and have a 4+/5+ armour save. A unit of 30 has 51 attacks. They don't need the cauldron to make them awesome: they already are. The Cauldron allows them to be even more powerful and versatile sure, but that's true of every unit it buffs. 51 hatred attacks at S3 will do a sizable amount of damage to any enemy unit, even without KB or an extra 10 attacks.

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Tue Jun 28, 2011 4:27 pm
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I compare them to everything else because imo, core points are best spent using Spearmen, Crossbowmen and Harpies only. We already have excellent core troops that does what our specials shouldn't which is to hold, die and assist.

I chose that example simply because

A. KoTR are core and all Brets army uses them.
B. Considered to be in the lower tiers this edition I've pitted the Corsairs with a lower tier army but unfavorable condition for the DE part.
C. Took into consideration that if the Brets do rubber lance he hits you with lower strength next turn as to eliminate the factor of the charge.
D. I always consider what the unit can do in the general scheme of things in an army and focus on reliability. I keep it simple as to eliminate areas where unfavorable circumstances will make me lose the round.


Your opponent is less likely to charge the Hydra because he risks not killing it and get stuck in combat.
BG are stubborn so unless he kills 20 his unit will be held aside from the casualties it will recieve, no Brets player wants that.
The COK are WS5, 2+as and can weather the incoming attack, next round and would then be fighting s3 knights, anyone who fields COk of that size normally has the Banner of Hag Graef so they retain their re-rolls.
If he does charge Spearmen of 30 he wont kill enough to remove your steadfast and since the Corsairs can't kill them either, I'd rather he try to take out a cheaper fodder unit so I can countercharge rather than use an expensive unit to hold them and still need to devote another unit to actually kill them.
As for the Crossbowmen, I am assuming that you have placed your RXBmen i a way that they only reach you by the third turn at most. You don't stand and shoot against them at 10x2 formation, you swift reform on your turn and go 5x4 and go for parry saves and steadfast.
Harpies are used because of this reason, Corsairs can't kill them on their own out right, I'd rather throw in a 55 point in its way so I can countercharge then with any of the units above and win the fight in one round of combat as opposed to slugging it out for how god knows how many turns.

How many bowmen do you think Brets have and why on earth will they shoot at the Corsairs?? Peasants are BS3, S3 bows, any competent player will shoot down your Dark Riders and Harpies instead. So what if they have 4+ against shooting, does nothing against Trebuchet hits and trust me he will shoot at them cause chances are with the points cost and a known potential threat, [take note on the word potential being negative as they are foot sloggers]. I'd rather he shoot my WE who cost the same, dies just easily but then that's just Brets were talking about. Atleast in against other armies the WE will do infinitely better at killing and do it singlehandedly who btw according to you are premium units because they are ITP and on't lose their 3 attacks if i do lose combat. I hear the combos about Corsairs and I I hear are, they are insanely good with Okkams, COB blessing etc etc, well guess what, so does everything else that does get blessed of buffed hell even Harpies are scary with Okkam's. Any 6 dice and above spell to cast should be anyway.

KoTR are 2+ as 5/6 Blessing not 1+. With a small frontage similar to monsters and chariots multicharge scenarios, horde can be used against you.
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Yes I am paying for a model that is ITP meaning I cannot flee when I want to so at all circumstances I need to hold whatever is charging me even if the matchup is unfavorable.
You are assuming that the opposing unit is also in horde formation to get all those attacks in, this is not always the case.
And there are only 3 units of S4, 2 units of S5 and only 2 S6 units in our army who also happen to have drawbacks(one strikes lat, one is only on the charge, I won't take manticore and dragons into account because you won't see those often) now why would I spend more points than I should on s3 units which I already have a lot of?
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Regardless of the army your are facing chances are if your Corsairs were blessed or buffed before hand, obviously he won't charge it unless he has 3 units on it. If it is not blessed, it won't be a threat to him yet and perhaps would just frenzybait the Corsairs from turn 1. Sure you have your BSB and your general nearby but what if you don't? What if the tournament scenario is like Dawn of War or have rules where you can't place them where they can get more than ld8?

And yes your 51 attacks will massacre Slaves, Night Goblins and whatnots now the question is how do you get all 51 attacks in against 5 wide...

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Wed Jun 29, 2011 12:45 am
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Quote:
how do you get all 51 attacks in against 5 wide...


You don't. But you do get 7 models versus 5, so that's 22 (front rank) + 7 (second rank) + 7 (third rank) for a not too shabby 36 attacks. Compare that to the equivalent for warriors: 8 (front rank) + 7 second rank + 7 (third rank) + 7 (fourth rank, assuming you don't charge), so that's 29 - you're still 7 attacks down, and again, you're not ITP and as the battle goes on your corsairs will retain their high volume of attacks whereas your warriors will rapidly lose them, as explained earlier (7 corsairs left would have 22 attacks versus a 5 wide enemy unit, whereas 8 warriors would have just 8 ). Corsairs are a good investment because they can continue to kick out with a lot of pain right until the last man, whereas warriors cannot.

Quote:
I compare them to everything else because imo, core points are best spent using Spearmen, Crossbowmen and Harpies only. We already have excellent core troops that does what our specials shouldn't which is to hold, die and assist.


Please see my analysis of warriors versus corsairs, both above and in earlier posts on this thread. Clearly warriors are not indisputably the better core choice. I also think you are severely limiting your tactical and strategic options if think core troops can only hold, die and assist.

Quote:
I chose that example simply because

A. KoTR are core and all Brets army uses them.
B. Considered to be in the lower tiers this edition I've pitted the Corsairs with a lower tier army but unfavorable condition for the DE part.
C. Took into consideration that if the Brets do rubber lance he hits you with lower strength next turn as to eliminate the factor of the charge.
D. I always consider what the unit can do in the general scheme of things in an army and focus on reliability. I keep it simple as to eliminate areas where unfavorable circumstances will make me lose the round.


You still chose a very unique core unit that has an ability that only one army in the entire game has. It's therefore not a good example.

Anyway, we clearly disagree and as we could argue this out all day, I'll simply agree to disagree rather than going through your remaining assertions one by one. Have a good one :)

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Wed Jun 29, 2011 12:49 pm
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If a unit of warriors hold the enemy for one turn, they've done my part as I am sure to have a countercharging unit. If I don't it means I intend to keep his deathstar unit away from the battle a good number of turns, something I cannot and will not do with Corsairs. Suppose you have both, if your own Spearmen hold his deathstar, how sure are you that your Corsairs can mop up the rest of his entire army that quickly? I don't think so...

I am not limiting my options, I am actually expanding my options as I have more points to spare on units that actually have options. 30 man spears with shields are 220+ points as compared to 340+ Corsairs. That's a big point differential I can use to purchase other units and multiply my threats while keeping my core intact, cheap for their intended roles. If I were to face a DE army and identify the threats and priority targets, Corsairs are the least of my problems. Frenzy at 10 points a pop is not an advantage, its a liability in my book with the number of ld tests competitive lists throw at you.

I on the other hand think you are not taking advantage that we have one of the best core troops at 7 and 10 points respectively that if I were to overload on core, it beats the purpose of them being as such so I can spend more points on other stuff.

Replace the KoTR with Warriors or Marauders, HE spearelves or Slaves or Saurus Warriors then...the result has minimal differential.

Agreed. I was not disputing how effective Corsairs are overall, I am disputing that they are point by point competitive as I have tried them several times in tournaments and they underperform more often than not.

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"To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill."

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Thu Jun 30, 2011 1:08 am
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If a unit of warriors hold the enemy for one turn, they've done my part as I am sure to have a countercharging unit. If I don't it means I intend to keep his deathstar unit away from the battle a good number of turns, something I cannot and will not do with Corsairs. Suppose you have both, if your own Spearmen hold his deathstar, how sure are you that your Corsairs can mop up the rest of his entire army that quickly? I don't think so...

I am not limiting my options, I am actually expanding my options as I have more points to spare on units that actually have options. 30 man spears with shields are 220+ points as compared to 340+ Corsairs. That's a big point differential I can use to purchase other units and multiply my threats while keeping my core intact, cheap for their intended roles. If I were to face a DE army and identify the threats and priority targets, Corsairs are the least of my problems. Frenzy at 10 points a pop is not an advantage, its a liability in my book with the number of ld tests competitive lists throw at you.

I on the other hand think you are not taking advantage that we have one of the best core troops at 7 and 10 points respectively that if I were to overload on core, it beats the purpose of them being as such so I can spend more points on other stuff.

Replace the KoTR with Warriors or Marauders, HE spearelves or Slaves or Saurus Warriors then...the result has minimal differential.

Agreed. I was not disputing how effective Corsairs are overall, I am disputing that they are point by point competitive as I have tried them several times in tournaments and they underperform more often than not.

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"To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill."

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Thu Jun 30, 2011 1:09 am
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Quote:
I am not limiting my options, I am actually expanding my options as I have more points to spare on units that actually have options.


Mixing what I said. I said that by viewing core as useful only for "hold, die and assist" you are limiting your tactical options.

Quote:
If I don't it means I intend to keep his deathstar unit away from the battle a good number of turns, something I cannot and will not do with Corsairs


Umm...why won't you? That seems to be your tactical intransigence again. Corsairs are great because at 10 points they can be used far more flexibily than "hold die and assist" as they can also go on the offensive, but at 10 points they are also not prohibitively expensive to use for delaying an enemy death star. They are a jack of all trades, good at everything unit, which still remains cheap and core. In a tournament environment - where you can't guarantee exactly who you are going to play against - it's great to be able to bring such an all comer's unit.

Quote:
Replace the KoTR with Warriors or Marauders, HE spearelves or Slaves or Saurus Warriors then...the result has minimal differential.


No it won't. The point of your example was that the KoTR had a ridiculously small front and high armour save. Most of the units you list there will be run as hordes, allowing the corsairs to hit with all 51 attacks, or at least run in 5 wide (they have to be, to be legal) and will thus take a minimum of 36 attacks. That's hugely different to the KoTR.

Quote:
as I have tried them several times in tournaments and they underperform more often than not.


I think that you can decide not to use them yourself based on your own experience, but as you yourself admit, you've heard again and again how great a unit they are from lots of other people. So perhaps it's better to acknowledge that they don't work for you, but that a sizable body of opinion sees them as optimum as core and not sub competitive, and quality your statements about them accordingly for future posters... I don't think that any of our core choices are uncompetitive tbh. I think that it's okay and not embarassing to be able to say "this unit doesn't work for me, but it sounds like it does for other people" - that's certainly been my philosophy about Shades in both 7th and 8th edition: some people love them for their scouting and skirmishing ability, combined with their high BS. I however find them too expensive and squishy and so don't like taking them. They don't work for me, but that doesn't mean they don't work for other people, and it's okay for that to be the case. Corsairs don't work as a optimum core choice for you? Fine. But they do for lots of other folks, so acknowledge that and don't dismiss them for others as non-competitive.

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Thu Jun 30, 2011 9:48 am
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It seems you miss the point after all this chatter. The main reason I don't consider them competitive is plain and simple, it needs support all the time unless fighting trash troops. I've never heard or seen Corsairs handle units consistently game in and out single handedly. What you said is counter-intuitive. You are never sure what you are going up against therefore in tournaments that is why you measure competitiveness with reliability along the lines. Being a Jack of all Traits unit is bad in an army that already is a Jack of All Traits army...You yourself justified my claim, you are never sure what you are going to face but you will always need a unit to hold thing thus Spearmen deserve a slot before Corsairs, you will always need hard hitting hammers and Corsairs are no hammer unit. You will need sacrificial units as DE as we simply don't have the durability for prolonged battles of attrition and they are too expensive to do that. They are a Jack of all Traits unit
which is just a sugarcoated term for "mediocre".

I never said that they did not work for me in tournaments, I said that based on experience, every time I have fielded them and pitted them against various units, it always seems that their slot in the army is lackluster to other options that I can put in their stead.

If you feel so inclined to defend that 30man Corsairs are as competitive as any other unit DE can field then good for you. We are all entitled to our opinion and I am merely stating that I simply cannot see Corsairs as competitive as other options you can take in a DE list. I can honestly say that with the amount of models I have, I have playtested a lot of builds with numerous unit combinations against all armies except Ogre Kingdoms and Tomb Kings and I can say that they are mediocre. Maybe you should be the one who should try other builds and units and see my point. Good day.

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"To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill."

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Last edited by Ichiyo1821 on Fri Jul 01, 2011 10:41 am, edited 1 time in total.



Thu Jun 30, 2011 1:44 pm
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Quote:
it needs support all the time unless fighting trash troops


Empirically untrue, 51 attacks at WS4, S3 with hatred doesn't need support against most things. Yes, they aren't a can opener unit that is good versus heavy cavalry or heavily armoured infantry, but they are good against most other things.

Quote:
What you said is counter-intuitive.


Well if you say so, it must be so. Care to venture an argument here or just make unsupported statements?

Quote:
You are never sure what you are going up against therefore in tournaments that is why you measure competitiveness with reliability along the lines.


Yes, and SSS corsairs with their 4+/5+ armour save, 3 attacks each, immune to psychology due to frenzy and still low cost are very reliable.

Quote:
Being a Jack of all Traits unit is bad in an army that already is a Jack of All Traits army...


Errm...Dark Elf armies are generally viewed as being a glass cannon, not a jack of all trades (again, the expression is 'jack of all trades', not 'jack of all traits').

Quote:
You yourself justified my claim, you are never sure what you are going to face but you will always need a unit to hold thing thus Spearmen deserve a slot before Corsairs, you will always need hard hitting hammers and Corsairs are no hammer unit.


51 attacks with a 5+ save and hatred is a hammer unit or a hold up unit. That's why its so good. It's synergy with other elements of the army (CoB, Lore of Shadow) only boost that further, but they don't require them to work well on their own.

Quote:
You will need sacrificial units as DE as we simply don't have the durability for prolonged battles of attrition and they are too expensive to do that.


What? Not if you play the game well. This seems bizarre. I never throw away units like you seem to. Sure if its an emergency, but a good strategist doesn't just feed units to the wolves for the sake of it.

Quote:
I never said that they did not work for me in tournaments, I said that based on experience, every time I have fielded them and pitted them against various units, it always seems that their slot in the army is lackluster to other options that I can put in their stead.


Cool, your experience is noted. Mine is different, as is several other peoples. Don't state that corsairs are the sub competitive choice as a fact, when it sounds like it is based on your experience alone. Many others disagree, so it's clearly opinion not fact.

Quote:
I can honestly say that with the amount of models I have, I have playtested a lot of builds with numerous unit combinations against all armies...Maybe you should be the one who should try other builds and units and see my point


Ditto, and I have. Good day to you too.

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Thu Jun 30, 2011 2:01 pm
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Guys, just let it rest. Unlike popular belief, differing opinions are just fine. :)

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Thanee


Thu Jun 30, 2011 7:07 pm
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