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Defense against shooting- 
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Trainee Warrior

Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2011 6:42 pm
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What is the best defense against gun line armies? T3 /5+ saves can hurt when hailed down by dwarf /empire black powder or High Elf crossbowmen/repeaters.
All I could think of was , what ever army uses , scouts , shooting back , or spellpower (fireball etc).

Thank you in advance.


Wed Jul 27, 2011 2:21 am
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Cold One Knight
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Well one amazing item that I always take is the iron curse icon. The character's unit gets a 6+ ward save against war machines, so it can be very usefull. The best way to deal with these is to fight them back before they cause real damage. Take units of shades (like 10) which can scout and usually shoot down one war machines then the following turn begin to charge them and role your opponents gun line as long as you use harpies to redirect their real combat units. This allows the shades to run wild and not really be threatened because of how static the gun line is.

When playing against gun lines another way to avoid how much damage they can do is to deploy your main units in one ranks so cannons and templates do not have a chance to cause severe damage on your main combat block.

Also having a lot of good targets makes a gun line player struggle to pick the right things to shoot at and causes them to split fire which is not good for them since it means that there is still (at least) a front rank of elite dark elves ready to kill the solf missile troops, and remember that they need every model dead to score any victory points, where as war machines (especially dwarf ones with runes) are easy kills for full victory points.
Cheers,
-Ave


Wed Jul 27, 2011 3:34 am
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Trainee Warrior

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Brilliant ! Thanks for taking the time to reply. I'll give these tactics a go .


Wed Jul 27, 2011 4:58 am
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Noble
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Hello mogwai.

Aveleys have some good points. Shades can however be vulnerable to autohit warmachines like the dwarven organ gun. Make sure to stay out of sight it until it is taken care of.

To ensure a favorable matchup for you.

Have a look at 2 unshootable fast moving heroes. One with the pendant of Khaeleth and one with dawnstone/cloak of hag greaf.

Make sure to use either shadow or dark magic on your sorcs. Miasma and chillwind are excellent to shot down thunderers, crossbowmen etc.


Wed Jul 27, 2011 6:46 am
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Highborn
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Best defense against shooting:

Have more shooting than your opponent.

Use terrain to block Line of Sight. No LOS is greater than 2+ ward save. Get my drift?

Have lots of bodies to soak up the shooting so your units are still functional when they do get into melee.

Have lots of targets preferably with the same amount of threat. not only will he have a hard time deciding who to shoot, but it also means you can afford to lose a unit if that means the rest of your army gets into his unscathed.

Be fast. Cavalry, flyers, monsters, mounted heroes and characters.

I will not advocate magic as I really find magic fickle. You may not always get the spell you need nor will you reliable cast it when you need it.

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Wed Jul 27, 2011 11:55 am
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Noble
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Its really that simple, we can outgun ANY one.

Core x-bows, people hate these guys as they are core and just shoot soooo much.

Special shades, what cant be said about these guys, sure skirmish took a hit in this edition but your not counting on that, your counting on more dakka.

Rare repears sure they suck now compared to how they use to be, but having 3 of those in a gun line army just adds to the suck and hurt.

Add to that characters can have hand bows or braces of hand bows and you can really mess some one up when they charge or you walk up on them. Then of course there is the assassin machine gun combo.

Put 3 or so assassins in your army each with manbane and rending stars. Thats just ugly and quick to fire? Only bad maneuvering will get them killed as they will shoot anything that gets close to pieces.

So no its not about hiding behind walls or rocks any fancy magic items. No its all about we shoot back and very lil in the world can take our combined shooting might.

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Sat Jul 30, 2011 4:12 am
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Malekith's Personal Guard

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That's better than core Dwarf Thunderers and/or core Empire Handgunners?

Better than Dwarf Grudge Throwers, Empire mortars, and both of their cannon?

Better than Dwarf Organ Guns and Empire Hellblaster Volley Guns?

Better than Empire Outriders and Pistoliers, or Dwarf Quarreler Rangers?

Better than the Steam Tank?


Taken individually any one of those can match much of our ranged capability. Taken all together, they quite literally blow us away... if we are dumb enough to play their game.

And in the final analysis... RXBs are S3 shooting. Kinda limp in results, especially against T4 targets, no matter how many shots you fire.


Sun Jul 31, 2011 2:17 am
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Corsair
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Mod's note
Could you all please keep the initial question in mind?
A shooty Dwarf army or a shooty Empire is indeed a nightmare to face if you're not prepared to that.
One answer is to align RXB, Shades & RBTs and throw dice and see who survives longer - < yawn >.
Isn't there any other answer?
Calisson

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Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:02 am
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Geist wrote:
Its really that simple, we can outgun ANY one.

.
Hah! Your examples show you still haven't faced real 8th edition shooting.

Ballistic skill is a relic of earlier editions. s5 templates are where it's at in 8th. Dwarves, Warriors and Brets can field 2 or more of these war machines. Each hit can remove 15+ elves. That's true firepower, although skaven with warpfire throwers and lizards with a large amount of salamanders can also do a lot of damage.

Getting back on topic, Druchii's best defence vs shooting is dark magic and multiple cauldrons.

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Sun Jul 31, 2011 11:58 am
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Generally when facing a gunline, I over-load one flank and rush forwards as fast as possible. The obvious Chillwind spell to disrupt at least some shooting and I hope something survives intact to their lines.

If I know I'm facing a gunline ahead of time, I can counter with my own gunline. Sure it's boring to play and generally the sign of a poor player but one gunline counters another. My personal strategy would be to leave my own missile troops at home, load up on fast moving stuff, especially Harpies, and rush at him. Let him kill the chaff and blow through his lines with your units. Very few armies can bring as much force to bear in such a small footprint as Dark Elves. If you get get to him, you can break him!

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Mon Aug 01, 2011 3:03 am
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sulla wrote:
Geist wrote:
Its really that simple, we can outgun ANY one.

.
Hah! Your examples show you still haven't faced real 8th edition shooting.

Ballistic skill is a relic of earlier editions. s5 templates are where it's at in 8th. Dwarves, Warriors and Brets can field 2 or more of these war machines. Each hit can remove 15+ elves. That's true firepower, although skaven with warpfire throwers and lizards with a large amount of salamanders can also do a lot of damage.

Getting back on topic, Druchii's best defence vs shooting is dark magic and multiple cauldrons.


I have not faced a real gun line in 8th? Odd, I rember a battle report from last years lone wolf where I took 3rd overall and beat out a double steam tank army. I not only out shot it I out played it. I hate to sound my own trumpt but here is what I have to say to anyone who says I have not faced a so and so or whatever list.
www.rankingshq.com

Chris Davis #41

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Mon Aug 01, 2011 4:53 am
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Colour me unimpressed, Chris. Steam tanks don't make a gunline. They use up points that could have been spent on guns. Stanks are a combat unit, and a poor one at that if your opponent has lore of death or shadow. Which I'm guessing you did, if you played Druchii at a tournament.

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Mon Aug 01, 2011 7:16 am
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Corsair
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Mod's note:
sulla, Geist: STOP.
Your tone is not appropriate to a cool tactical discussion.
Next similar post, I'll lock the thread and warn officially the offender, because I don't like to repeat myself.
Thank you for your understanding.
Calisson

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Mon Aug 01, 2011 7:54 am
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Malekith's Personal Guard

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Back to the OP:

The best defense against a gunline is speed and maneuverability. If he is running a dedicated gunline, his troops will not be terribly effective in close combat. So, the faster you get there, the better.

Terrain is also your friend here. Anything that blocks LOS helps, even if it only screens part of your army. Put your heavy hitters here, and your lighter, faster stuff where it can make the most of its maneuverability.

Speaking of screening... 5 harpies is 55 points. For a portable -2 to his hit rolls, that's not bad.

Shades make warmachines cry, especially in woods. (Unless the other guy is really clever and makes sure there isn't anyplace to put the shades where they won't be immediately shot down...)

Another potential counter is to have a bunch of smallish elite units. You can stand to loose several and still keep coming, but he has to kill them ALL or they will rip his line wide open when you get there.


Tue Aug 02, 2011 4:24 am
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I'll mention a few of the dirtier things;

1)Cloak of Hag Graef Peg hero. Turn 2, he WILL be in combat with a warmachine of your choice, and he'll get there without losing any wounds 98% of the time.

2)The dirty, dirty dreadlord on peg.

3) Shadowblade


Tue Aug 02, 2011 7:20 am
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Highborn
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Just a note, before you consider suggesting items and spells and what nots.. again read my post. The best defense against shooting is terrain deployment and fast units. Everything else comes second. I face Empire and Dwarven Gunlines even in 8th edition and mind you, even against Indirect fire warmachines, terrain is is still your friend. You cannot hope to outshoot armies like that with DE no matter how hard you try, so don't bother. Just accept that you will get shot at and get into melee as fast and efficiently as you can. The safest place a DE is is in combat more often than not.

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W/D/L
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New AB
W/D/L
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9th Age
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Vae Victis
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"To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill."

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Dark Eldar
Death Korps of Kreig


Tue Aug 02, 2011 11:53 am
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Unit selection helps too. If a unit would be fairly useless after a phase or two of kills, you should probably not bother taking that unit.

For example, if a unit would only be useful to you because of steadfast, be wary of fielding them ever vs high strength templates. Luckily DE can get by very well with just a front rank of multi attack troops and mindrazor, so this is the most common way of dealing with gunlines.

But units of Khainites with the 5+ ward and a cauldron nearby can be useful to you, as can a unit of anything with a khaleth/crown of command.

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Wed Aug 03, 2011 5:35 am
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Trainee Warrior

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It's worth pointing out here that most gun line armies tend to be.. Very Static if you see what I mean. Stand in front and its bad, but get round the side and it starts to fall to bits for them. Empire especially, dwarfs to a certain extent respond very poorly to being flanked.
So the above suggestions of fast units are good ones, tho really most of our army is fast to a certain extent. Overloading one flank and sweeping around is another good tactic. Try to arrange it so they cant bring their full fire power to bear.
You need to be in combat in 2 turns, so try not to be held up/redirected.
Templates are a nightmare for us. Best things to deal with it as pointed out above is try to use the terrain to your advantage. Place all your bits in a line down the centre of the board. You want them to be indirect firing at all times if possible. Try not to bunch up too much. If he misses one of your units, you want to minimise the risk that he will hit another unit.
Use shades/fliers/shadowblade etc to get into their warmachines asap. I've yet to use shadowblade personally, bit pricy for my tastes.
In the case of empire, if they have an engineer you want it dead asap. You want his wizard dead/in combat asap.
When you do get to his side, charge his detachments not his main units. Should take those out in one turn, then turn ready to deal with the parent without being shot to pieces/auto-flanked.
Corsairs with their 4+ armour tend to come into their own here. Pack in plenty of bodies so they are still effective after taking a pasting.
Iron curse as already mentioned and multiple cauldrons are almost essential.
I am a big fan of taking 10 man units of warriors and standing them in front of my elites. Since I usually run frenzied corsairs and BG, the panic tests from them being destroyed/running away can be ignored. If taking non immune to psychology units then go with Harpies instead. No use against the dreaded templates, but against normal shooting is very effective.
Five man units of shades are great. About the only way they have dealing with them usually, is wasting their artillery on 85 point units. Every war machine that shoots at them is a bonus for you.
There are many spells that can lock down shooting. If you try to run it so he cant shoot with all his units, then lock down the ones that can, you are a long way towards winning.


Fri Aug 05, 2011 3:25 pm
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SDC and prayers to khaine.

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Sat Aug 06, 2011 12:08 am
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Speed helps. You cant shoot in to close combat, so get in there and mess em up. Anything that can shoot gets its ass handed to it by anything that can not shoot as soon as they are toe to toe. they will get 2 rounds of shooting before you reach them usually. Use dark magic, scouts, harpies and flying characters to reduce that to one round and then chop em up in close combat :)

EDIT: scare your opponent by emphasizing how much your hydra will kill him in close combat. he will direct an unwise amount of fire-power to bring it down while you laugh inwardly at a puny sacrafice of 175 points to get your witches in combat with handgunners.

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Fri Aug 12, 2011 12:21 pm
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I find that lots of magic is a great way to deal with shooting.

Shadow -- Melkoth's Mystifying Miasma nerfs BS-based shooting, while Pit of Shades destroys war machines

Dark -- Chillwind, Word of Pain are both good anti-shooting spells

Death -- Purple Sun takes out whole batteries of War Machines in one go

A spell caster on a Pegasus equipped with the Pendant of Khaeleth can easily get into position to cast the stuff you need. Use a harpy screen to help protect her from low-strength, BS-based shooting. A Master on a Pegasus with the Cloak of Hag Graef can weather huge amounts of shooting in order to charge war machines and/or archer units.

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Fri Aug 12, 2011 1:34 pm
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