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Best in Slot = Corsairs Vs Spearmen Vs Xbowmen 
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Trainee Warrior

Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2011 6:42 pm
Posts: 29
Hey Guys ,

I was wondering why most lists ive been seeing published do not use corsairs.
I normally just see a block of Spears followed with with a few xbow packs.
I understand corsairs cost a few more points . But with better saves and the ability to stand and shoot with the option of frenzy seems almost a no brainer.
I have not done any playtesting so I leave to you experts to answer my inquiry. Why isn't everyone using corsairs ?

Thank you in advance.


Thu Jul 28, 2011 5:44 pm
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Rending Star
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There have been a lot of discussions about that. Take a deeper look into this subforum, you might find a few. :)

Me, I use both, Spears and Corsairs, but the cheaper Warriors are usually the first choice.

I don't like RHBs, though, and always take AHW Corsairs.

Bye
Thanee


Thu Jul 28, 2011 7:11 pm
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Trainee Warrior

Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2011 6:42 pm
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Thank you for your response. I appologise , I should have dug a little deeper in the forums. I'll take a look.

Thanks again.


Thu Jul 28, 2011 7:33 pm
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Malekith's Personal Guard

Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2010 12:13 am
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By and large, people use Spearmen as SacDag fodder, and RXBs as early game firebases and late game infantry blocks. The assault/hammer functions are usualy performed by Hydras, Witches, Black Guard, Cold One Knights, or Cold One Chariots. Behind these choices, Corsairs come out a little lackluster.

Of course, this is all a matter of personal taste. There is no reason one couldn't use Corsairs in place of the RXBs, you just loose shooting to enhance close combat - and no few people do so with good results. It just means you're not going to have a big shooting phase, that's all.


Fri Jul 29, 2011 9:47 pm
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Trainee Warrior

Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2011 6:42 pm
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Just to note -

I did a couple of games last night with 20 units of spearmen , corsairs , Rxbowmen , Just to try them and get a feel for ranking them.

Without going to into specifics with the army build . I would say that they all did well. Basically I found the corsairs to be most flexible . As they could stand and shoot and coupled with the Frenzy Banner had a few attacks. Spearmen excellent bunker ,
that could block charge lanes or flank. RXbowmen , shot the crap what dared move around a forest and protected my flanks.

Like the zen proverb shame confusion into answers and you get more questions.....Im still undecided as to what is best in slot. As everyone has said . They all have their uses . It just depends on the situation.


Sun Jul 31, 2011 8:23 pm
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Cold One Knight

Joined: Sun Jul 11, 2010 2:00 pm
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mogwai wrote:
Just to note -

I did a couple of games last night with 20 units of spearmen , corsairs , Rxbowmen , Just to try them and get a feel for ranking them.


Trying everyone is good way but comparing 20 corsairs, 20 RxBs and 20 spearmen is not actualy fair fight pointswise.

I use only wariors and RxBs. Corsairs are "knows little bit of everything but are not good in anything" to me. I gave them a try and wasnt satisfied with them. After that i started using 40 strong unit of wariors and i totaly love those guys, cheap and flexible. As for shooting, i prefer constant results from "can be awesome but can do nothing". 10 RxBs with musician is great unit for outdeploying your oponent. 20 RxBs with banner, musician and shields is solid flexible unit, shooting in early turns, flank charging in late turns.


Sun Jul 31, 2011 11:37 pm
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I really like units of 30-40 Spearmen. They're often invaluable for holding up an elite opponent for a turn or two while the rest of your army goes after more vulnerable choices. If you use Lore of Shadow, they can be offensive or defensive in equal measure; lots of ranks, 5+ Ward and debuffing enemy Weapon Skill/Strength makes them last a long time if you need to pin an enemy in place. If you need them to kill things, +1 Attack or Killing Blow plus Mindrazor/Withering also yields very strong results. They regularly perform much better for me than simply being meat for the Sacrificial Dagger.

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Mon Aug 01, 2011 11:54 pm
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Slave (off the Altar)

Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2011 7:33 pm
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I like em all. In my 2000 pt list, I use a 39 block of spearmen to hold my Sorceress, A 20 man squad of Corsairs to cast the magic on, and two units of Crossbows for shooting at shiz. All in all, its about 850 pts in core. And with magic assistance, they can kill a LOT. With the help of mindrazor, the withering, and the CoB, My spearmen unit took out a block of charging knights, and got side charged by a small unit of greatswords, and took them out as well.

My Corsairs tore through a squad of halberdiers, and then decimated his artillery line

And my crossbows took out a larger squad of greatswords through shooting/close combat

All in all, each has a different purpose. Each of them has always done more damage than my CoK (I got bad luck with them) And my hydra (who is always the first target of warmachines)


Tue Aug 02, 2011 4:49 am
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I've recently been struggling with my core choices/hammer units. I used to be fine with 2 blocks of 30 spears and 20 x-bows with musician. I ran Black Guard as well but that's a discussion for another thread...
I found myself wanting to field bigger spear units and no x-bows whatsoever. The shooting didn't seem to be of much use even with Lore of Shadow. When you have multiple, high toughness support units assaulting you, it's hard to take care of everything.
I've been told to try out the whole corsair block of doom approach and bring more x-bowmen and I'm more than a little apprehensive. Sure, Mindrazor is great but it's got to go off and even with Bloodshield, the amount of enemy shooting I face still overwhelms my army.
So, at the moment, the only choice I can fully backup is the block of 40 spears that has already been discussed. It really IS an anvil that can give you a turn or two before your hammer comes in for the decisive strike.


Tue Aug 02, 2011 6:41 am
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Highborn
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40 is still doable for spearmen however, I feel that if your 30 man spear block cannot handle the charge, chances are it is a very expensive Deathstar unit desinged to eat RnF units and thus defeating the purpose of having a unit with lots of ranks to retain steadfast. My suggestion would be to examine first what units eat your anvil and see whether they should be taking that particular charge in the first place. Sometimes it is better to just divert that particular unit with Dark Riders and Harpies long enough for you to mop up the rest of his army then come back to that unit with multi charges. I have often seen and read battle reports where DE generals throw their spear block thinking it can hold up to anything. Regardless of how many ranks they have, they are still t3 elves no matter what.

As for whether you should use more or less shooting, also take into consideration instances where you have to shoot at something like Fanatics or the enemy flyers and the likes. Also consider that though they may not kill something outright with shooting, did you force your opponent to rethink his movement and deployment simply because you had a gunline guarding a flank or up front and center while your hammer units await in the flanks. For DE, killing is your number one priority but ironically you should not only look at a unit's worth solely based on its ability to kill. My 2 centavos.

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Tue Aug 02, 2011 11:48 am
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Malekith's Personal Guard

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I for my part just want Skavensla...oh. oops lol

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Sat Aug 06, 2011 12:19 am
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Slave on the Altar

Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2011 1:29 pm
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I actually like Xbows quite a lot, preferably in numbers.

Spearmen are there to absorb templates and occasionally feed a Sorceress.
I run 25 in 5*5.

Xbows on the other hand I prefer to run in 20's 2*10 and reforming when I have to/can, to me those spears net me +5 attacks, oh joy!

Xbows, 40 shots each turn, 40 Stand and shoot shots, hand weapon and shield in close combat makes them not only more offensive, but more resilient.

I run Corsairs with bows as redirectors, harassment.


Mon Aug 08, 2011 1:36 pm
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Slave on the Altar

Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2008 2:17 am
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I run Spearmen and corsair hordes.
spearman horde 60, corsairs 40.

This is expensive yes but I have pitted myself up against chaos mortals, beastmen, ogres, wood elves, dwarves and vampire counts and I have come out on top. It's a blood bloody fight but these units, like it's says in the book(paraphrasing so may not be correct) live to promote our glory may it be bloody indeed!

So I love both spearman and corsairs here's why.

Spearman of 57 with shields, mus., banner, lordling *
3 spaces are left for BSB with unbreakable banner*
Dreadlord with Black Amulet, Soul Render,pair of handbows(to get a few shots in the charge;) heavy arm, cloak*
Sorceress with focus familiar(very very important to have his) this Beezy will never for the most part be able to be targeted for CC or attack keep her on the back don't be reckless and use any spells that assist the Spearmen from shadow/death/metal and one spell from fire onto of that give her ring of darkness or null talismans depending on the army or just add another master and give that sucker ring of darkeness. March this unbreakable death star into the fray or block a fulcrum it will graurantee die to the last man and kill leaders, other hordes etc. March it in fulcrum games and the sorc can happily leave the group and take a fulcrum or challenge in safety with familiar.
* do the math and change it up for what works;)

Corsairs horde of 40 with reaves, mus, banner(frenzy), *

I do add a lord or master but it changes these guys are great on their own and getting into combat. Anyways frenzy isn't sooo bad anymore due to the leadership test that can be done to avoid unwanted moves so no worries there. They can get shot at by missle fire and sure you'll lose some but not to fret, in combat simply boost them COB and be amazed and when they get charged and charged they will direct the shots on the most threatening sure some of the tough ones will need 6's but the sheer amount of hits coming against it is certainly able to down something or several infantry units. I have killed dragons, giants, treemen, a lot of monster just by shooting it down. Shoot to kill what your most afraid of. Sorry to say but Emperor dragons need to be take. Out by other means=P anyways once in combat lots of attacks and against infrantry or Calvary standard having killing blow from COB is amazing.
* do the math add a appropriate lord or hero to assist in challenges and kicking general ass.
Cheers


Wed Aug 10, 2011 9:26 pm
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Highborn
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I've noticed you haven't fought Empire, Lizardmen and Skaven....

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Thu Aug 11, 2011 1:12 am
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Slave on the Altar

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Sadly no:( those vermin have dealt with some severe pest control thanks to the Lizardmen and the Empire have been rounding the Reptiles up to make an old world Jerrasic park which in turn has been taking all their time so no, they haven't had the honor to shed their blood on my altars=)


Thu Aug 11, 2011 6:51 am
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Trainee Warrior

Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2011 2:58 pm
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I love corsairs in a nice block. 40-50 is ideal imo. They synergise so so well with the buffs we should be taking. 50-60 strength 8 killing blow attacks anyone? I've had this unit utterly destroy many many units in one turn. They can do it with no buffs, but with buffs its truly disgusting to be honest.
And the amusing thing, is that people quite often ignore them in favour of other things, like elite/rare choices.

Unlike the above, I have fought the empire, skaven and lizards. Empire/skaven were destroyed to a man (rat) by turn 4/5. Lizzies were harder (some actually survived the battle) but all over for them once the temple/toad star was gone.

I dont like spears really. Too expensive and too weak to be good for anything other than dying.


Thu Aug 11, 2011 1:29 pm
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Trainee Warrior

Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2011 5:00 pm
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in a big comped tourny coming up i run a big block of spears and 18 corsairs with ehw
and frenzy banner. my most recent game I played i fought warriors of chaos and i had a nice early charge with my corsairs so before my CoB through the extra attk on them and they tore through the unit.


Thu Aug 18, 2011 5:02 am
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Warrior

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Infekted wrote:
I love corsairs in a nice block. 40-50 is ideal imo. They synergise so so well with the buffs we should be taking. 50-60 strength 8 killing blow attacks anyone? I've had this unit utterly destroy many many units in one turn. They can do it with no buffs, but with buffs its truly disgusting to be honest.
.


Maybe I am a bit of a noob, but how do you get to that amount of STR 8 attacks?

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Thu Aug 18, 2011 11:48 am
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Trainee Warrior

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Horde of 40 or even 30 corsairs run ten wide. 3 attacks each + two extra ranks. = 50 attacks. Or 51 including champ.
If you run them 12 wide (as I often do if facing an army with hordes) = 36 + 24 = 60, or 61 including champ.
Mind razor would give them strength 8.
CoB gives them killing blow. Although really, if you got mindrazor up on them, you'd probly be better off with the 5+ ward.


Thu Aug 18, 2011 12:18 pm
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Malekith's Best Friend
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To clarify even more, Okkam's Mindrazor is a high-level spell from the Lore of Shadows. Since many Dark Elf players are fielding magic users wielding the Lore of Shadows, casting Mindrazor on virtually any of our units creates very deadly combat potential since our base Leadership is so high, Hatred makes our attacks consistent, and the Cauldron of Blood means we can make more swings in the course of a round of combat.

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Thu Aug 18, 2011 5:08 pm
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feestbbt wrote:
Infekted wrote:
I love corsairs in a nice block. 40-50 is ideal imo. They synergise so so well with the buffs we should be taking. 50-60 strength 8 killing blow attacks anyone? I've had this unit utterly destroy many many units in one turn. They can do it with no buffs, but with buffs its truly disgusting to be honest.
.


Maybe I am a bit of a noob, but how do you get to that amount of STR 8 attacks?


10 wide horde at least 3 deep gives 30 attacks
+10 for additional hand weapons
+10 for the sea serpent standard (frenzy)
+10 for +1A blessing from the cauldron

=60attacks.

Mindrazor + multiattack, hatred DE or rerolling ASF HE is pretty broken compared to what it can do for other armies.

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Thu Aug 18, 2011 7:31 pm
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I regularly use all three in my lists, usually as blocks of: 20 FC AHW SSS corsairs as support unit, 40 spearmen with FC, 20 RXB with musician and shields. I find that whilst all the special units have all the flashy-killy statlines the units which are most cost-effective in combination with buffs and debuffs are your common or garden core choices. Spearmen seem pretty average in close combat until you hit the opponent with The Withering spell for -D3 Toughness or buff the spearmen with Okkam's Mindrazor, my spearmen block the other day hit a unit of 40 orcs and I thought 'uh oh' until I managed to get off Okkam's in the magic phase, at which point my spearmen cut the orc unit in half, broke them and ran them down in the first round of combat. As for corsairs, they have some of the most concentrated killing power in the army with all the attacks each model puts out, so combine that with bonuses to wound and they shred almost anything really quickly, even without buffs they can tear through ranks of goblins and skaven or other T3 cannon-fodder with ease, but my favourite use for corsairs is as the ultimate anti-uber-character core unit. Give them KB from the CoB and your opponent will have to pass more than a few ward saves to keep their uber-killy character alive, and because the corsairs are a core unit the enemy often doesn't suspect it. And finally we come to RXBs, who are fantastic as a high-shot-output shooting unit to guard flanks and soften up big hordes early on and emergency infantry-units late in the game, sitting a fire sorceress in the unit (possibly with guiding eye) and casting flaming sword of ruin on them dramatically increases the damage RXBs can do aswell as making them a serious threat to those big regen monsters.

Overall I think I am using our staple three core choices more and more with each game as they combine so well with buffs/de-buffs, it is very much a matter of personal taste but in defence of corsairs I think their most useful attribute is how concentrated their attacks are, you can get a huge amount of damage out of a very small frontage and they have sustained hitting power as most of their attacks will come out of the front rank, so even late in the game when the unit is reduced to half a dozen models it can still be very dangerous, and so taken in medium to small units and combined with buffs they are very dangerous, especially since they are often underestimated, if you see a unit of 10 CoK rolling down the board towards you and next to them stand 10 little corsairs who will you shoot? Yet the corsairs, with a little help, can put out as much, or even more damage thanks to buffs which would be mostly wasted on CoK. For taking out characters especially I think the corsairs are one of the most cost-effective units in the game.

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Fri Aug 19, 2011 8:32 am
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Trainee Warrior

Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2011 6:49 am
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I currently use only Spearmen and Corsairs, but I have been tempted to run some repeater-crossbows in my army for some time. At the moment, I run a horde unit of 50x Spearmen w/Full Command, Shields, and The Banner of Murder and I have been very impressed with what this unit has been able to do so far. It is cheap to run points-wise compared to other horde units out there, dishes our a lot of attacks which most can hit thanks to hatred in the first round of combat that are -1 to armor, and on top of that, when backed up w/a Cauldron of Blood, this unit just becomes awesome. And to make things better, I run my Dreadlord in this unit, who is equipped with the Crown of Command, P.O.K., Armor of Darkness, and a GW. Not only is it a cheap build, but it gives my Spearmen stubborn LD10, and w/my Cauldron of Blood being my BSB right behind them, these guys are a effective tarpit unit as well as an effective unit in CC, which can hold against anything and do some damage.

As for Corsairs, they can be a good unit if used correctly. I currently only run 24x w/Full Command in a 6x4 formation at 2400 points, and they can dish out a lot of attacks thanks to the Sea Serpent Standard and provide a good support unit for my Spearmen horde, but I cant really see myself taking these guys as a horde unit.

As for Repeater-Crossbows, I have yet to be really impressed with them since they are really hit and miss everytime I have run them. True rolling 40x shots for 20x in a 10x2 formation is a lot of fun, but the results have always varied all over the place with me so I have lost some interest in them but willing to give them another shot. And a quik question about them, would running 2x units of 10x w/Shields, Musician be a good or bad option?


Sun Aug 21, 2011 9:52 pm
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Trainee Warrior

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Romme thats how i run them in 2200 pt games i have 2 units of ten with musican with sheilds if i have the extra 20 pts. my lvl 2 with the dark lore gos in one of the units so that one runs 6 wide. give it a try its alot of shots and came become annoying plus they still have ws 4 if they get into close combat plus the parry save.
i would run 3 units if i could afford it. thats just my input lol ( what do i know im just a slave lol )


Mon Aug 22, 2011 4:15 pm
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Crimsongrail wrote:
( what do i know im just a slave lol )


We were all slaves once :)

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Tue Aug 23, 2011 2:49 pm
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