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Ideal Heroes? 
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Trainee Warrior
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I just have a couple of quick questions! I am in the process of rolling a 2500 pt list for some battles against counts and woodies! I have a lv 4, dreadlord, lv 2, and a bsb, for roughly 900 pts! Is this overkill for heroes? I have a pretty good idea of how these will be rolled, but just out of curiosity, my second question is, how would you roll these characters?

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Fri Oct 07, 2011 1:05 am
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Malekith's Best Friend
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At 2500, ideally you should look at having a Lvl 4, a BSB and a third hero level character, could be an Assassin, Lvl 2 or hunter pegasus Master. To be honest the third character is optional, but each one can fill a niche in your list.

Any more than 3 characters at 2500 is a waste IMO. Its better to have more units.

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Fri Oct 07, 2011 3:01 am
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Dragon Lord
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Demetrius is right, mostly.

Some characters can be built to do the same job as some units, like for example the pegasus masters. They easily do the job of war machine/skirmisher hunters and harrassers. They do it more reliably at about 50% extra cost.

Personally I think you need:
BSB
Magic presence (could be level 4, could be 2 level 2s)
Special Forces character (Assassin, Pegasus Master etc.)
That's the bare minimum

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Fri Oct 07, 2011 3:37 am
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Malekith's Best Friend
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i think 25% of the total army size is a good benchmark, though i agree with dalamar about character purpose. to save points i would drop the lvl 2. a lvl 4 with the dagger is incredibly strong as is.

i use (in 2400 pts):
roadblock dreadlord (to bog down deathstars)
mage (1 lvl 4 or 2 lvl 2)
BSB on pegasus as a strikeforce.

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Fri Oct 07, 2011 5:33 am
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Executioner
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Hi there,

I dont agree that more than 3 charcaters at 2500 is a waste. Why? Based on what?


Characters fulfill different roles, thus the number of them you include depends solely on the kind of list you want to run.


For example, if you want to field lots of infantry backed up by Shadow Lore and CoB, then you will field Dreadlord, Lvl4 and Hag with CoB that will be your BSB and spend the rest in infantry blocks, possibly a CoK bus.

If you want to play what here in Spain we call a diffuse army (dunno how it is called in english), then you will field Dreadlord, Lvl4, Master BSB, another Master and possibly a Lvl2 or a third Master and will then buy loads of Shades and Chariots.


Both lists are equally effective and all-comers. The number of characters depends on you. There's nothing wrong with playing 5 characters at 2500 if they do perform well. They are not a waste of points since they do what they are supposed to do in each list. For infantry heavy lists, you get a few supportive characters that act as force multipliers for your troops. For diffuse lists, you get several aggresive, mobile/with long range characters that will concentrate killing power in the needed place of the table.


It's all up to each one to decide how many characters they need to make their list work. It's just a matter of making the inversion worth it.




Also, on a final note, I'd like to comment that I personally consider characters as another troop type so I don't make that distinction between points invested in characters and points invested in troop. That makes it much easier to only focus on the role they fulfill and compare with other troop types. So if i do spend half of my points in characters it's all right because they serve the goal of wining the game xD


My humble opinion.



Byee


Fri Oct 07, 2011 6:29 am
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Corsair
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What is the role of characters?

A few of them can do the killing by themselves (dragonlord).
But nowadays, the killing is best done by slighly less efficient, but overwhelmly more resilient large units. Hence the dawn of the assassins.

Most of the characters are to be considered as unit enhancers: they provide a higher Ld, or Ld rerolls, or buffs/curses.
Or they fulfill a specific requirement, such as warmachine hunters.
If you need a character for a task that a unit cannot achieve, take it.
If you need him for a task that a unit could do, you'd rather take more bodies - unless you're short on money, it's cheaper to buy an assassin than 15 BG.

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Fri Oct 07, 2011 7:11 am
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Executioner
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Hi there,



You don't need a Dragonlord to kill stuff, it's ok with just a horse Dreadlord and 1 or 2 Masters. These can bring all the punch you might need.

I disagree that, to win combats and kill big enemy units, you need big units yourself. First of all, I disagree that DE units are more resilient than our characters, with the only exception of Hydras and CoK. The rest, the infantries, are extremely weak to ranged damage and extremely reliant on external support like a 300 points Wizard and a 200 points CoB. Our characters can have excelent defensive items as well as excelent offensive items. Also, they are very mobile. This grants them very high survavility and, thus, reliability when it comes to bring killing power to specific points of the table.

When you have 800 points in guys that your opponent can't kill and that kill lots of enemy stuff, you can't say you're wasting points.

This is a setup I've been using lately for 2500: an unkillable Dreadlord with Soulrender on steed, Lvl4 with Dagger and Death Lore, Master with Cloak of Hag Graef and Dawnstone on DP, Master with BDE plus Enchanted Shield and Dragonbane Gem on steed and a Lvl2 with Lifetaker and Tome of Furion (credit to Tethlis for this one), Dark Magic. Bring then core troops in the form of massed Warriors to tarpit and DR with crossbows and put the rest in 2x Harpies, 2x9 Shades, 3 Chariots and 1 War Hydra.

I find this to be a perfectly balanced and competitive list with unique features that only characters can provide and that troop cannot.

Movement: super fast list and very elusive. You can choose to hunt down your enemy units or you can choose to evade them with ease since all can move a lot except Chariots, who can outmaneouvre most things anyway.

Magic: Strong magic phase, very aggresive though supportive magic with Death Lore and Dark Magic. You can harass enemy mages, BSBs or whatever with Death sniping spells. Sure they're not instant effect, but you force your enemy to come to you since, if he sits back, he will end up loosing hundreds of points to your Lvl4. Also, it has supportive spells like Soulblight or Doom and Darkness. Dark Magic provides so much needed magic missiles plus supportive spells like Word of Pain.

Shooting: Strong shooting as well with 18 Shades, 10 Riders and a Lifetaker. On top of it, you have 2 breath weapons: BDE and Hydra's. So plenty of shooting to decimate enemy infantry.

Combat: unkillable Dreadlord, 3 Chariots and a War Hydra + ranked infantry + 2 mobile characters that bring 6 extra S6 attacks. What can't you kill with this? You either tarpit with Dreadlord to countercharge with Chariots and Hydra or you double charge Warriors + Chariots/Hydra/Characters. Add the help of Word of Pain, Soulblight or Doom and Darkness. If you stil can't kill a certain unit, just tarpit with the Dreadlord and go kill everything else. Remember, you don't need to completely destroy your enemy to the last man. It's perfectly fine with wining by 3 or 4, or cast -3L on Steadfast units. Or add your own ranks. You don't need to kill'em all, you just need to break them.



What do these characters provide? Mainly, killing power in small frontages and from the distance.


Sure our units are good, but they can't kill bunkered wizards from 24", they can't kill ethereal units before they become a problem, they can't tarpit big enemy units, they can't reliably hunt warmachines. Furthermore, our combat units are all low T and so-so mobility, save CoKs. Also, our combat units need to be 20-40 models to reliably stay in the table and need big frontages (5-7) to release their killing power and, in order to do so, they need a lot of support.



To sum it up, I disagree that character's role is limited to warmachine hunting or just casting spells. They can provide sooo many useful and powerful tools.



Here in Spain we see a lot of these lists. From "soft" lists like mine to harder ones with double Hydra and multiple Pegasuses (at the cost of less Chariots and Shades). And I can grant you they work.



So, if you feel like fielding 5 characters in 2500 games, don't think you're wasting points. Just use them if you need them, and use them well, cause they are awesome. Overwhelming mages and super mobile, durable and killy characters that you opponent will find VERY difficult to kill but that will have a huge impact in the game.



My 2 cents.


Last edited by Pjeos on Fri Oct 07, 2011 4:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.



Fri Oct 07, 2011 11:16 am
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In 8th edition I really feel that a BSB is essential and should always be considered in 2K games and above. We have good options for the BSB so I don't see any reason one would pass the benefits of having one. My only rule is, it depends. I am a person who believes that the power of DE is balance and thus if I have a level 4 as my general, I'll make sure that the rest of my army can hold charges until my caster does all the damage they can do or the rest of my army poses an equal threat as my level 4. For example, If I were to use a Dreadlord and BSB, my third character would be a level 2 with the Tome of Furion at the very least. If I field a level 4 Wizard and a BSB, the third can be a master to help boost a unit's melee hitting power or another mage whose lore compliments my wizard lord. I generally stay away from assassins in this editon though I did use them in 7th. I just feel that for his points, you can get a better unit for it or boost a unit. I personally never use Special Characters, part of which is because we don't seem to have ones that are worth it.

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Fri Oct 07, 2011 12:05 pm
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Trainee Warrior
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Thank you all for your speedy responses! There are really great suggestions here and awesome explinations!

I wanted to let you know I will be keeping an eye on this thread and (of coarse, due to a busy schedule) I need to make this short but sweet!

This afternoon I will give you an idea of what I was trying to accomplish and where they were going to go!

Thank you again! Looking forward to the rest of the conversation!

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Fri Oct 07, 2011 12:13 pm
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The problem with going character-heavy in 8th edition is that a single character isn't likely to inflict enough wounds to overcome an enemy unit. But if you take a 200 point pegasus character, and buy the equivalent number of Witch Elves, then those Witch Elves probably are likely to kill what you send them to fight. They'll inflict more wounds, in all likilihood, and also have the ranks to possibly overcome Steadfast. The character may be better protected via armor, but a 3-wound character versus a 20-wound regiment is going to be less likely to survive in a number of situations. 8th edition put the power back in the hands of infantry, and so taking infantry tends to be a good all-around choice. This isn't saying that characters are bad, because indeed our current power builds does make use of the mobility and survivability of pegasus-mounted characters, but that doesn't make them a substitute for having bodies on the field.

For myself, I never try to go above 3 characters in any 2500 point game using Elves. Whether it's 2 Lords and a Hero BSB, or a Lord and two Heroes, I find that I start missing my combat units if I take too much. I can see the argument made for a Lord and three Heroes (Supreme Sorc, backup Sorc, Cauldron, Pegasus Rider) but I still have reservations about that.

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Fri Oct 07, 2011 5:42 pm
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Hi there,


But, with such big units out there these days, what's the point in trying to kill them entirely? Break them and pursue, earn VP. Easy to achieve with Doom and Darkness or charging both warriors (in the corner) and chariots into the unit. Remove Steadfast with your ranks, win by 3, collect VPs.


Also, if you go 20 WEs, you get a nice combat unit, that will be easily drop to the point where they're not a threat anymore. Because it is relatively easy for many armies to shot elves to pieces. At least, that's the metagame around here. Easy VP are targeted first, nasty units are tarpited or diverted. The less easy VP you field, the better.


I wonder if anyone here in D.net knows Universal Battle, it's a site where you can emulate a whfb game (flash). I'd like to test some games with many of you, which I consider great players from what I read from you :)


Fri Oct 07, 2011 6:20 pm
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Trainee Warrior
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Sorry for the delay!

I don't want to get into detail of my army list because that is not where I am , but I will give you the idea. I have been playing for a while and I have a pretty good idea of what is powerful, but I was looking for a fun, yet competitive game! This are the reasons that I wanted to roll with 4 characters!

1st a powerhouse dreadlord on a CO, to go into a unit of CoKs 7 strong w/ standard of slaughter for ld 10 and high combat res.

2nd BSB w/ hydra banner in a unit of CoKs 7 strong w/ standard of discipline for, again, ld 10 and high combat res.

Now I was always under the impression that if you tske a Lv 4 with death, then it is very beneficial to run a Lv 2 w/ shadow for support!

So, 3rd Lv4 w/ sac of course in rxbs.

4th lv2 w/ tome. Position still unknown!

Other units will be WE x2, rxbs x2, a hydra, a RBT, and a small unit of corsairs!

Thanks again for all of the replys! They have been great! I can see now where it just depends on the type of army that you want to take! Whether its to out maneuver, or out fight! Thanks again, I hope that w/out going into real detail this helps you to understand what I am trying to accomplish!

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Sat Oct 08, 2011 3:19 am
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Dragon Lord
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Get something that helps you kill. Artificial CR doesn't work in 8th anymore. Who cares if you win by 3 or 300 if your opponent managed to remain Stalwart? It's even more important in a cavalry unit like Cold One Knights.

Yes, Death by itself can be very underwhelming. Shadow is a good combination with any lore.

It seems you have a plan for each character, so there is nothing saying you shouldn't do it.

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8th Edition army book W/D/L:
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Sat Oct 08, 2011 5:00 am
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Trainee Warrior
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So if not going for combat res, then is the hydra banner still good? And also units and or characters with multiple attacks is the way to go then?

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Sat Oct 08, 2011 10:57 pm
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Dragon Lord
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Hydra Banner is awesome (but expensive). It gives you CR through KILLS, not CR without killing anybody.

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7th edition army book:
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Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)

8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16


Sun Oct 09, 2011 12:28 am
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Gladerider wrote:
So if not going for combat res, then is the hydra banner still good? And also units and or characters with multiple attacks is the way to go then?


Hydra is still good but should only put on medium sized COK. If you have a medium sized COK however and put a BSB with the Hydra Banner you have a very crazy Deathstar unit who takes a lot of points off your army. That is why a COB backed COK is better for points cost. in 8th you need to kill more than generate SCR that is why SoHG is really the best banner for them now.

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New AB
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"To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill."

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Sun Oct 09, 2011 9:56 am
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Trainee Warrior
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Thank you! You all have been very helpful!

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Mon Oct 10, 2011 2:24 am
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For me, both a level 4 with dagger and an unkillable, steadfast dreadlord are too good not to be used in competetive games at 2400+.

I only take COB if I take a unit thar really benefits from the blessings. In my opinion COK and executioners are the units that really require a COB, although also nice for corsairs (KB).

If I do not take this unit, I usually add a level 2 sorceress, or a peggy master with ring of hotek and cloak of hag grief. Great for destroying enemy wizards.


Mon Oct 10, 2011 7:30 am
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