Interesting List from Italian DE Player

How to beat those cowardly High Elves?

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Setomidor
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Interesting List from Italian DE Player

Post by Setomidor »

Hi guys!

Looked through the lists from ETC 2011 and found this quite interesting list from the Italian DE player:

Code: Select all

Lvl 4 Dark, Dagger, M2(2)
Lvl 4 Shadow, Scroll

BSB on Peg, Pendant, Potion of Foolhard
Master on Peg, Cloak of HG, Dawn Stone
Cauldron

10 xBows, Chmp, Mus
20 Xbows, Chmp, Mus

10 Spearmen, Chmp, Mus
26 Spears, FC, Std of Dicipline
5 Dark Riders
5 Harpies

14 Witchelves, Chmp, Mus
14 Witchelves, Chmp, Mus
Hydra


What surprised me the most is that he scored 102 out of 120 VP over 6 games. No Shades! Sure, a team tournament is different because you can affect the placement, but with DE you're often seen as a swiss-army... army who can go up against anything.

Note that the ETC has some limitations, for example: you can only generate up to 2 extra PDs per turn and you can only have three flying units.

Would be nice to hear som speculations about this army, here follows mine:

- The mages combos Black Horror with Enfeebling Foe, and offers Occam's to the WEs
- Pegasus masters combo charge to cause mass damage (preferably alongside the Hydra). (Are these guys allowed to form a unit btw? Would be mad to give them both KB from Cauldron and then charge)
- Blocks of 14 witches to maximize kill-per-points ratio. 155 pts for 29 hatred I6 attacks is very cheap and you should easily kill any characters in the front ranks. If you get Occam's running you'll cut through alot for your points. Also, you've of course stubborn if within range of the CoB and should therefore remain in the fight, making them a suitable unit for speedbumping as well.

//Seto
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Post by Prince fabulas »

I remember seeing this list in the run up to ETC and thinking oh god if I play him I am going to be slaughtered.

He has so many horrible spell combinations.

The low casting values of Dark Magic make this very effective.

I have tried a L4 and L2 with tome and it was very good but 2 L4 is outrageous.

Withering is possibly his most effective spell.

If he gets it off he can cast soul stealer probably mincing at least half the unit.

Or he can just shoot you with thirty crossbows.

Miasma plus PoS is viable when you are threatening other nasty spells.

Enfeebling plus black horror as you mentioned is devastating.

Mindrazor we all know about.

He can stop your magic phase with RiP enfeebling and withering.

So if you sit off this army he will devaste you from range then go in and mop you up.

If you attack he can counter with magic augmented DE and smash you up.

He can also divert you with the DR, harpies or Masters.

I reckon he didn't take shades as they are very expensive.

He needs to have a few places his sorceresses can bolt to as they can't go in the WE.

So I think the Xbows were a better option as they are core.

They are another targat fot Mind Razor and you get more wounds for your money.

The Italian ETC team is really strong I thought they would win this year as they have won before haven't changed their team much but Poland were too good.

I was talking to some of the lads and they were saying they play five practice games a week.

That is how you get to be really good.
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Post by Thanee »

Shades are good, but hardly necessary.

That army looks very magic-dependant. It can go horribly wrong, if magic doesn't work out. Apparantly, he didn't have that problem. :)

If his magic does work, it can be a really nasty army, of course.

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Re: Interesting List from Italian DE Player

Post by Rabidnid »

Setomidor wrote:Hi guys!

Looked through the lists from ETC 2011 and found this quite interesting list from the Italian DE player:

Code: Select all

Lvl 4 Dark, Dagger, M2(2)
Lvl 4 Shadow, Scroll

BSB on Peg, Pendant, Potion of Foolhard
Master on Peg, Cloak of HG, Dawn Stone
Cauldron

10 xBows, Chmp, Mus
20 Xbows, Chmp, Mus

10 Spearmen, Chmp, Mus
26 Spears, FC, Std of Dicipline
5 Dark Riders
5 Harpies

14 Witchelves, Chmp, Mus
14 Witchelves, Chmp, Mus
Hydra


What surprised me the most is that he scored 102 out of 120 VP over 6 games. No Shades! Sure, a team tournament is different because you can affect the placement, but with DE you're often seen as a swiss-army.
//Seto



That is a great list. I've just come to the same conclusion that you really need 2x lvl 4s to control a magic phase and get the best possible synergy going with the spells.

Harpies and DR can do just about anything, there was certainly no need for shades. 2x14 witches is also the way I am going, you just don't need than many girls to do the needed damage. 2 by 14 is much better than 1x30.

The 2 masters is where I would deviate. i would use a unit of CoKs and another unit of harpies in place of them and add the BSB to the CoB.
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Post by Red... »

That is a great list. I've just come to the same conclusion that you really need 2x lvl 4s to control a magic phase and get the best possible synergy going with the spells.


Two level 4s arguing over up to 12 power dice would normally be a headache. However, Power of Darkness makes it more viable for dark elves. Even so though, it may not pay off well at all if he has a couple of turns of rolling 3s and 4s for the magic phase...

I would be interested to see how he fared against magic resistant armies. A dwarf army with 2 rune lords and the master rune of balance, master rune of spellbinding and a couple of runes of spellbreaking would floor him (not to mention a BSB with master rune of Valaya). Similarly, a high elf army with high anti magic might really ruin his day.
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Post by Prince fabulas »

Even if he rolls low magic dice he has PoD and the dagger to compensate.

And should get off at least one nasty spell per phase.

Dwarfs with spell eaters could be nasty but if the two pegs can get in at the
artillery it is very winnable.

If you rush forward with everything you could probably overwhelm the dwarves although it would be all or nothing.

Even if the dwarfs take away two spells he still has a six to choose from.

Is it worth 100 points for two dispels and to take away two spells from 8 (10 if you count PoD)?

Probably but it is a high cost.

I agree strong anti-magic builds are not the best match-up but I still think the list has enough to get something against them.

I think the best way to stop this list would be a death magic character sniping build.

A death slaan with bane head and becalming cogitation would be nasty. :twisted:

It's alway much easier to know what to take when you can see the opponents list first but much harder in practice :( .
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Post by Red... »

Even if the dwarfs take away two spells he still has a six to choose from.

Is it worth 100 points for two dispels and to take away two spells from 8 (10 if you count PoD)?


No dwarf worth his salt would take spelleater runes, as they cost twice the price of spellbreaker runes (effectively dispel scrolls) with only a 50% chance of removing a random spell.

A fairly costly, but comprehensive Dwarf anti-magic setup runs as follows:
- Runelord with master rune of spellbinding and rune of spellbreaking: 215
- Runelord with master rune of balance and rune of spellbreaking: 215
- Thane as BSB with master rune of Valaya: 190

That's 620 points, giving the Dwarf player a +5 to dispel, +5 dispel dice and -1 to your powerdice, along with two dispel scroll equivalents. More or less invincible to magic.

However, you are right, that combination is a tad unlikely in a tournament game. What is more likely is a list with bits and pieces of it, such as:
- Runelord with master rune of spellbinding and rune of spellbreaking: 215
- Runesmith with master rune of balance: 120

That's +3 to dispel, +4 dispel dice and -1 powerdice to you, along with one dispel scroll equivalent, all for the stellar price of 335 points - roughly the same cost as a level 4 supreme sorceress with a few magic items. That sort of magic defence would stop a magic heavy list dead in the water.

Yes, he may do well against magic lite or magic average armies, but I reckon against a tooled up magic def list he would die quick and fast...
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Post by Rabidnid »

Red... wrote:
That's +3 to dispel, +4 dispel dice and -1 powerdice to you, along with one dispel scroll equivalent, all for the stellar price of 335 points - roughly the same cost as a level 4 supreme sorceress with a few magic items. That sort of magic defence would stop a magic heavy list dead in the water.


Yeah, but that's Dwarves, which very few generalist lists are going to do well against anyway. Settle into cover, go for a couple big spells per turn hoping for IFs and play for a draw.
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Post by Prince fabulas »

Red... wrote:
No dwarf worth his salt would take spelleater runes, as they cost twice the price of spellbreaker runes (effectively dispel scrolls) with only a 50% chance of removing a random spell.



If you look at the ETC army lists the majority of dwarf armies had spelleater runes (including the winners Poland).

Also spelleater runes remove the spell you have just dispelled.

So a 50% chance of taking for example Van hels or Nehek away from a casty vamp lord (or Mindrazor for a L4 Sorceress) could be potentially game winning.

My point was that the twin sorceress build has enough redundancy to cope with this that is he has many other spell options which are potentially game winning.

I agree your dwarf anti-magic build is very strong but the spelleater build is also very strong and does see a lot of use. I was just using it as an example of how the twin sorceress build can cope.
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Post by Azimyth »

Does ETC make use of scenarios? If so how did he do at blood and glory? from what I see there is only 4 fortitude points. Losing either of his banners will cost him the game
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Post by Red... »

Yeah, but that's Dwarves, which very few generalist lists are going to do well against anyway


High Elves, WoC and a few others have pretty potent anti magic too (a level 4 High Elf mage with staff of sorcery or book of ashur has a +6 to dispel! They can also take a magic item that adds +1 DD and -1 to your PD too I believe...)
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Post by Prince fabulas »

Azimyth wrote:Does ETC make use of scenarios? If so how did he do at blood and glory? from what I see there is only 4 fortitude points. Losing either of his banners will cost him the game


No it's all battleline otherwise I think he probably would have put some in (including maybe a flaming one on WE to assault the watchtower :twisted:).
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Post by Vulcan »

Red... wrote:I would be interested to see how he fared against magic resistant armies. A dwarf army with 2 rune lords and the master rune of balance, master rune of spellbinding and a couple of runes of spellbreaking would floor him (not to mention a BSB with master rune of Valaya). Similarly, a high elf army with high anti magic might really ruin his day.


He can actually get spells past that. Not many, but the Dwarf would have to be careful to keep from getting caught out of DD before he cast PoD.
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Post by Rabidnid »

Red... wrote:
Yeah, but that's Dwarves, which very few generalist lists are going to do well against anyway


High Elves, WoC and a few others have pretty potent anti magic too (a level 4 High Elf mage with staff of sorcery or book of ashur has a +6 to dispel! They can also take a magic item that adds +1 DD and -1 to your PD too I believe...)


Yeah, but you can kill those and their mages without too much trouble. Static gunlines with strong melee and unbreachable magic defence is less easy to deal with for a generalist list.
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Post by Kaleth stinson »

PoD is almost useless with ETC comp, so i would not rely on that.

Just one or two bad magic fases and he will have a hard time. Not to mention if he meets VC and he has no magic items.
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Post by Tmarichards »

The VC issue isn't really a problem at the ETC unless his team's match-ups go badly wrong
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Post by Kaleth stinson »

tmarichards wrote:The VC issue isn't really a problem at the ETC unless his team's match-ups go badly wrong


And thats the reason he can use a list like that. If it was a singles tournament and had the same number of powerdice that i got last week, it woulden't be such a great game for him.
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Post by Tmarichards »

Indeed. It's why a lot of ETC lists will work well at the ETC (such as Asger's knight bus, but that's been discussed enough elsewhere) but might fall down in singles events where you can't control the match-ups. It's part of the reason that Wood Elf player got the highest overall score, I could be wrong but I imagine some of his team-mates got some horrendous match-ups to protect his list.
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Post by Prince fabulas »

The wood elf player Adam Wonderley was playing for Australia who were near the bottom for the tournament (Australia had an entirely new team so I expect they will bounce right back next year).

This means easier games.

It's still a really good achievement especially as he had never been to ETC before.

But this list was at the top for the whole tournament and still got 102/120.

This is an incredible result.

And shows the quality of the list and player.

In ETC you can avoid unfavourable match-ups to an extent but what you have to remember is that your opponents are trying to force you into them.
Other players on your team have also to avoid their terror match-ups so it's not always possible. You do have to be reasonably resilient against most things and have as few bad match-ups as possible.

I think if he plays VC he has plenty of spells that can deal with wraiths.

He can either kill them or nerf them in combat so they die.

Miasma, pit of shades, pendulum, chillwind, enfeebling, doombolt, soulstealer, black horror.

The Pendant master can hold them for a long time.

Remember at ETC you can only have 5 max in a wraith unit (including Banshee) and no WD ethereal characters.

I think only one guy took spirit hosts.

WE with cauldron and augmenting magic can really cut through a VC army.

Hydra is a real problem aswell.
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Post by Thanee »

Kaleth Stinson wrote:PoD is almost useless with ETC comp, so i would not rely on that.


Yeah, unfortunately most tournament restrictions are completely ignorant about that (Boo! Dark Elves are so good, anything that makes them weaker is a good thing!).

While DE certainly are a strong army, it is still sad, when some (fluffy and non-broken) abilities are just completely negated by some generic rule. Most of the more restrictive tournament restrictions make both DE Sorc abilities (PoD and use any amount of dice) completely useless by restricting the amount of PD that can be generated (which in general is a good thing) without making an exception for spells (that are completely ineffective then, due to costing PD in the first place).

In general, if there is a PD generation limit, I would vastly prefer if spells generating PD would only count the effectively generated amount (i.e. PD gained minus PD used to cast the spell) against that limit.

And then they wonder that everyone is playing the Sacrificial Dagger, when there are no alternatives...

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Post by Prince fabulas »

Thanee I agree especially since PoD may result in some S4 hits.

I doubt any changes in ETC comp will benefit DE next year as they were the best army this year (excluding WE which were only represented by one player).

And this will probably have the knock on effect for at least some tournaments using/being influenced by ETC comp.
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Post by Marauder mitch2 »

Well all the top aus players play WM so give them a few years.

I do like the list but a list for a team event is different so only so much can be gleened, but great result there.
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Post by Setomidor »

I actually got to test this list last week and I really liked it. Dark magic combined with the dagger is just fearsome, you can walk through all four spells on 5 dice + dagger. Didn't achieve a lot of synergies between the lores (played High Elves so barely used any Shadow magic bar Miasma), but Chillwind + Miasma + Word of Pain was very efficient at shutting down his shooting.

Witch Elves boosted with 5+ ward and Word of Pain on his White Lions was hilarious. He inflicted one wound (hitting 5+, no rerolls, wounding 2+ and then 5+ ward), the witches inflicted ~15. My 155 Witches slaughtered 450 pts of his.
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Post by Meteor »

Very nice list, as Thanee has mentioned, rather magic dependent, but not wholly, as there's two dependable combat Masters.

I'd like to pick it up for a spin, it's very different from the typical lists you see here, and doesn't have Shades and Harpy spams like any staple list these days.
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Post by Setomidor »

Yes and no, I tried it against a High Elf player with super-tight magic defence (steal one of my power dice each turn, and +5 to dispel), but I still got some magic through. The low casting values and the dagger means the enemy has to make tough choices even if you roll a moderate amount of dice.

Another important thing to consider is that the mages excel in different parts of the game. The shadow mage is more important in the late phases of the game while the Dark magic sorc is more important early on -- meaning they won't really compete about the same dice.

I have adapted the above list to suit my playing style better (adding a big unit of 30+ executioners in favor of one WE unit and one peg master) and I'll try that list tomorrow, will prove interesting!
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