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Back to Basics with OTHER ELVES 
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Slave (off the Altar)
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Has anyone got any tactics on taking out High Elf Swordmasters and their annoying Mages?

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Sun Dec 18, 2011 9:22 pm
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Swordmasters have: speed of Asuryan = ASF
Valour of ages= reroll psych against DE's.

If you had a unit (ie WE's or BG's) with ASF banner that was I6 then they should strike ahead of the Swordmasters.

Swodmasters have heavy armour and T3 so RxBs with Banner of Murder should take care of them


Sun Dec 18, 2011 10:55 pm
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RxBows with the banner of murder is a bad and illegal idea- they can't have a magic banner so it would have to go on a BSB, banner of murder also does not affect their ranged attacks and their xbows are armour-piercing anyway.

Swordmasters are very easy to deal with as long as you don't charge them- just shoot/magic missile them and they'll go down very quickly indeed. They're pretty much free points vs Dark Elves.

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Sun Dec 18, 2011 11:10 pm
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Johnno wrote:
Swordmasters have: speed of Asuryan = ASF
Valour of ages= reroll psych against DE's.

If you had a unit (ie WE's or BG's) with ASF banner that was I6 then they should strike ahead of the Swordmasters.

Swodmasters have heavy armour and T3 so RxBs with Banner of Murder should take care of them


1 asf doesn't work like that anymore, so that tactic is sadly useless although they don't get their re-rolls unless that shadowmage reduces their initiatif

2 RxB don't have the option for a magic banner and ap doesn't stack, nor does it affect ranged attacks in contrary to flaming.

although your best bet is still a low lvl mage with repeater crossbows and perhaps a guiding eye, there tougness 3 with a 5+ as so quite fragile. hydra's will also do a nice job if they don't have a flaming banner, pendant of kaleath 1+ as lord will also kill them perhaps a bit slowly but still.

their strenth 5 not 6 which makes even cold one knight armour retain a decent save, perhaps lowering ws isn't a bad idea before engaging them in combat.

or you can go lore of death, take out mages with the snipe spells, lure them in range with harpies, soulblight on the masters and they become t2 st4, not really impressive a stand and shoot will take out a good lot, a unitl like frenzy corsairs might even do more causalties (+1 strenth vs +1 attack)


Sun Dec 18, 2011 11:15 pm
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flash29 wrote:

1 asf doesn't work like that anymore, so that tactic is sadly useless although they don't get their re-rolls unless that shadowmage reduces their initiative

2 RxB don't have the option for a magic banner and ap doesn't stack, nor does it affect ranged attacks in contrary to flaming.


Sorry then, knew RxB's were armour piercing and can't take banner of murder, I merged two separate sentences and forgot to reread/edit....

How does ASF work now then?


Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:04 am
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Everyone who has ASF swings at the same time. If you have ASF and your target does not, and your initiative is the same or higher than your target, not only do you strike first but you get to reroll misses.

Swordmasters are T3 5+ armor. 30 RXBmen shooting at long range kill 8-9 a turn. That should be enough to force a panic check each turn. Sooner or later they'll either fail a check or run out of bodies.


Mon Dec 19, 2011 1:24 am
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Ahh...thanks for clearing that up


Mon Dec 19, 2011 2:47 am
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Same way as you deal with anything high elf other than White Lions and Phoenix Guard.

Blot out the sun with crossbow bolts.

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Mon Dec 19, 2011 3:33 am
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5+ ward from the cob and don't fight them from the front.

Lots of shooting is also good.

ASF CoKs are a really good solution.

Things to watch out for are the high elf's own lore and lore of light. Vauls un-making can destroy a magic item, which will make your unkillable DL a very sad panda. The light signature spells is 1xD6 S-6 flaming attacks boosted, and the big light spell doubles the speed and adds +1 attack to the selected unit, or everyone within 12" in is boosted form.


Also high elves with always strike last weapons still always strike first, not at initiative as the BRB would have you believe. It is in the high elf FAQ

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Mon Dec 19, 2011 5:11 am
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Without a doubt RXB's are the way forward, esp when/if you combine them with something like enchanted blades/sword of rhuin (i think its called)/ Guiding eyes.

What i also like is, when you have whittled a unit down to a half dozen men or so, hitting them with a pair of chariots. They will still get ASF but the impact hits should reduce them to a very small unit and as a result you won't take that many wounds, winning the combat by a huge margin and running them down.

Be under no illusion though - you have to make sure they are small enough before you hit in them. Nothing is worse than hitting a unit, realizing that you can't break them because there are too many of them, and then watching the buggers chop your beautiful chariots into firewood.

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Mon Dec 19, 2011 10:17 am
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You can use the lore of metal spell "Plague of Rust" to drop their AS to 6+, meaning no saves against our shooting and no saves against Fireballs.

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Mon Dec 19, 2011 10:25 am
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I find that repeater crossbows and lore of fire do well against most infantry units as they both go through a layer of armor and high elf infantry have standard protection for that (white lions and Phoenix guard aside).

Lore of death can work against the mage, but it the wizard is in a unit fire pall/peircing bolts the heck out of it, followed by a hail of armor piercing bolts. Yes it doesn't single out the main threat , the mage, without having charbroiled and shiskabob it's unit, but this still can cause some mayhem.

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Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:07 pm
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They've aid it all. If you really mean back to basics, shoot them. Don't engage them ever. use turn 1-3 to shoot the bejesus out of them with mass RXB fire. To be honest you can deal with an entire HE army by just shooting every single on of them. Everything is 5 or 6+. for DP, they are so expensive that killing a single model in a very high point per model army hurts. Watch him squirm.

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Tue Dec 20, 2011 3:12 am
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But Teclis has unbeleivable magic. Any way of taking him out?[/quote]

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Thu Dec 22, 2011 7:21 pm
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Scion of Hag Graef wrote:
But Teclis has unbeleivable magic. Any way of taking him out?
[/quote]

Shadowblade...

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Wed Dec 28, 2011 3:49 pm
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Shadowblade is not an answer to Teclis, not even slightly. Far too many ways for the High Elf player to get round him.

What Lore is Teclis using? If it's Life then you should be alright, High Magic is the biggest problem vs Dark Elves I think, especially if you have a Pendant Dreadlord. Incidentally, this is one of the better ways of dealing with him I think- pin him in place with the Dreadlord, then clean up the rest of the army. He can't out shoot you, and as long as you keep the Cauldron out of Dwellers range he can't actually get any points of you with Dwellers spam- just run the units away once they get whittled down too much, and pick off bits where you can.

If you can kill Teclis, that's great- however, you don't need to kill him to beat the army- Teclis costs a few points, and is usually bunkered in a unit of around 400+ points. Pin that in place, in my example with the Dreadlord, thern use the rest of your army -300pts to clean up the rest of his army -1000pts.

It was a fair while ago, but I played out what I would consider to be a relatively textbook game against a Life Teclis basically using these principles. Here's the game if you're interested in watching it, as I said it was a little while ago so it's all a little rusty, my more recent reports have improved drastically:


2400pt Game 1- vs High Elves (Life Teclis):

1/3- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ioKvdx0vsGA
2/3- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97PP0PWQcS8
3/3- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCNgyzEHQyY

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Wed Dec 28, 2011 4:36 pm
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In an irony of Warhammer:

- Dark Elves in 8th ed are better than most other races.
- High Elves in 8th ed are only better than some other races.
- Unfortunately, High Elves do very well against Dark Elves in face to face match ups.

Quite a few of the answers on here have been a bit...dismissive to be honest. Tackling High Elves is a real headache in 8th ed, and while it is possible, you can't really just say "take lots of crossbowmen" and leave it at that. Here's why:

High Elves have very potent magic. banner of saphery is phenomenal (+D3 power dice), as is a +5 to dispel on a mage lord and the +1 to their dispel and -1 to your power dice magic item is very nifty for ruining your magic phase - particularly if you roll a low number. Throw in the stupid dragon mage of +1 power dice for every spell attempt and auto flaming sword of rhuin (S4 bowmen with volleyfire is a massive pain in the backside) and he can really hurt you here. Lore of life is incredible for high elves - toughness 5 or 7 troops just don't die, and those that do can be brought back via regrowth. Dwellers below will halve most of your units and has a 33% chance of topping off your characters in a single go.

Add to that their massed volley fire (archers in big blocks positioned 29" away from you can can get at least one and often two rounds of shooting at you before you can get your RxBs (who don't have volleyfire and so can't rank up) even into range. That means your troops will be mauled in a shooting match, particularly when your troops are brittle and die easily, whereas his can be made T5+ and regrown.

Finally, if you do get into combat, you are facing an entire army of ASF, normally re-rolling their attacks, bunch of cheese monkeys. Yes, you can use I6 troops to help, but Witch Elves are not a good idea (massed S3 bow fire or even just massed S3 spear attacks will kill way too many before you even get to strike), Black Guard go into battle with a big sign over their heads saying "shoot me, missile me, destroy me" and will realistically struggle to get into combat - particularly given their unit cap of 20, and Cold One Knights are expensive and too easy to kill with RBTs or archers buffed to S4 by the flaming sword of rhuin.

I have found that becoming very skilled with magic is important for beating high elves. You really need to know how to use power of darkness, and always save that dispel scroll for when you really need it. Don't bother with lore of shadow (the latent high initiative of high elves makes it very hard to make an impact with it) but take metal instead (all the spells are useful, with particular benefits from glittering scales, enchanted blades of aiban and final transmutation). Don't bother taking hydras (flaming sword archers or archers with banner of eternal flame will kill or cripple them almost immediately). Take as many chariots as you can (high elves hate T5, 3+, S5, D6+1 impact hits chariots). Take a big unit of warriors with a level 4 supreme sorceress with sacrificial dagger to ensure you can get the spells you need to get off. Don't bother too much with RxBs, but make sure you have enough combat power to hold his attacks and hit him back hard enough to win combat (big horde unit of execs, supported by a cauldron of blood and buffed by glittering scales (3+ armour save and a 5+ ward save is very helpful against any and all of his attacks - both missile and combat) and run him down...A dreadlord or master on pegasus can be great for warmachine hunting and even chopping up that irksome dragon mage.

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Wed Dec 28, 2011 4:49 pm
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I would also mention that Dark magic is very key against high elves.

Low casting costs mean that despite his shananagins with stealing your PD and turning it into a DD, you can still manage to successfully cast a spell or two. I usually put a level 4 dark on a peggy with the focus familiar and the black dragon egg. Flies around in safety, chillwinds the big archer unit with the best LOS, and between soulstealer and black horror you can really whittle down those units.

My HE friend tends to put a combo of items on his huge swordmaster unit that makes them immune to spells and he also takes the sacred incense to make it so I can't really shoot or magic them. Thats where the BDE comes in, there comes a point where I can fly the wizard behind the big unit then just take out a huge swathe of them with the breath weapon. This is also effective if you are playing someone for the first time as they wouldn't expect a breath weapon from a peggy wizard.

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Wed Dec 28, 2011 8:02 pm
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In any event, High Elves really are not a challenge for Dark Elves as long as you don't run into ASF great weapons, which isn't that difficult.

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Wed Dec 28, 2011 11:34 pm
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tmarichards wrote:
In any event, High Elves really are not a challenge for Dark Elves as long as you don't run into ASF great weapons, which isn't that difficult.


Seconded. Yes Teclis can be a pain but to be honest Red you are giving them too much credit. If we say take a typical DE list against a typical HE with or without Teclis I don't see the problem in dealing with HE. First let's not think in a vacuum and assume that the DE will do nothing to compensate for what the HE player is doing. Ok let's run the hypos...

HE with Lore of Life Archamage or Teclis in a bunker of PG or Spears or even LSG. 2-3 Great Eagles with your pick of White Lions or Swordmasters in the mix, maybe even some MSU or 10 man Dragon Princes and a BSB.

From the offset alone you worry about his 30" bows. HE are not likely to go Archer horde so the most you will get is 15 shots. If he is taking Lore of Life and you are expecting him to Dwellers you then why are you deploying in range of his Archers? If he say an archer block and you have say your typical 20 RXbmen with shields, you can just deploy 31" inches away from him first. It's not like you are rushing to get into CC anyway against them. Deploy your tougher units across the Archers say CoKs or Hydras or even your Spearmen. If he gets first turn and wants to shoot with his archers he'd have to move them and thus need 5's to hit with 15 guys then 4's to wound and I tell you they will kill 2 or so spearmen at most or even RXBs if you decide to trade off shots. On your turn you move everything up to his range thus creating multiple targets for his Archers. If he goes for your fast melee units then your RXBmen will have their full 40 ap shots and I doubt he will do enough damage your other units. If he goes for your RXbmen then all is good as you'll probably just take 2-3 casualties at most with 5+ saves and keeps the shooting on them. In a war of attrition shooting Rxbmen vs the same points cost Archer unit the RXBmen will win. Deploying further back also forces your opponent to march his mage forward to be in range of spells are LoL does'nt really have the range. If he opts to stay back then you would have wasted his first turn advantage.

If you go first you can simply march the RXBmen straight up 10" so you will be in rang of his units even if he moves back 2.5". Concentrate you forces on his Archmage's unit and use the RXBmen later too whittle any units guarding the mage bunker and ignore his Archers. Say his Mage is in a group of PG flanked by a block of SM or DP. You can shoot the DP or WM then plan to charge all the units into his bunker and kill his mage outright. You don't need Shadowblade or whatever tricks to kill his caster, Teclis or not, just brute force your way in while whittling away the support elements and that is why RXBmen against HE are just plain strong. I haven't even counted the fact that we have other tools such as magic and Harpies or Shades. Most DE use Shadow anyway, you can cast multiple hexes around then use Miasma last to lower the Archer's BS or his counterchargers' strength or WS. Either way atleast 1 spell will come off then you can simply adjust to it. Shadow outranges Life spells so if you can get a hex off, you are forcing him to spend PD on his turn to dispel them thus less PD to cast his own damaging or buff spells which in turn helps your preserve your army. Against HE you just have to play smart as compared to say fighting against WOC or Orcs and whatnots. We have all the tools to offset the HE ASF rule to be honest like cheaper long range shooters, access to ASF banners, fast movement and potent magic to compete with HE in every phase of the game. Again if you have RXB's against HE, they will earn their points back no matter what, yes I am looking at you Swordmasters, White Lions, Eagles, Archers, LSG and Spearmen and look at that, that's what any HE army would take. :twisted:

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Thu Dec 29, 2011 4:29 am
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Oh yeah if he takes RBTS and Archers and a mage bunker, that's pretty much his whole army...don't see why that list would be hard to any balanced DE list...

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Thu Dec 29, 2011 4:39 am
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Quote:
In any event, High Elves really are not a challenge for Dark Elves as long as you don't run into ASF great weapons, which isn't that difficult.


Well, if you say so, then it must be so. This is the kind of dismissive comment that I was suggesting was a little less than helpful.

The HE Army I play against most has the following:

Unit 1
- Arch mage with lore of life, magic item of take whichever items you like and cloak of can't be hurt by non magic attacks, and magic item of +1 to starting dice roll. He always takes the regen spell, Throne of Vines, Regrowth and Skin of T5/7
- Cadyran
- Block of 35 LSG with FC

Unit 2
- BSB with Reaver Bow
- 20 Phoenix Guard with FC and Banner of Saphery

Unit 3
- 20 Archers with FC and Banner of Eternal Flame

Unit 4
- 8 Shadow warriors

Unit 5
- 8 Silverhelms with FC

Unit 6
- 20 LSG with FC

Unit 7
- Dragon Mage on Small Dragon. Always has a dispel scroll, Flaming Sword of Rhuin and another fire spell.

Unit 8
- Tiranoc Chariot

Unit 9
- RBT

Unit 10
- RBT

- Unit 11 10 White Lions of Chrace

If I go heavy on RxBs, he can use his Silver Helms or Chariot to really hurt them. Any Hydras that show up are fairly easily dispatched with flaming arrows (either latent or from the Flaming Sword buff). The Phoenix Guard are very very hard to deal with: 5+ Armour Save followed by a 4+ Ward Save makes them really hard to kill, and he can further buff that by making their toughness either 5 or 7, and regrowing those that die. Even the LSG are a pain in the backside: Cadyran is extremely good for his points (3x WS5, S5 flaming attacks, with the added bonus of doing D6 no strength, ignore armour save wounds to anyone who kills him) and if he manages to cast the regen spell on them then they become very resilient against any non flaming attacks. He does always do very well in his magic phase, because with the Dragon Mage and Banner of Saphery he has the equivalent of 3-5 extra power dice EVERY turn (+1 per spell for the Dragon Mage and +D3 for the banner of Saphery). The Banner is a particular headache, because it is put on the unit standard bearer in the Phoenix Guard, so you can't kill it without routing or destroying the unit. His magic phase is thus brutal: I can either dispel Throne of Vines reliably and then risk giving him free reign to buff his troops (T5 Phoenix Guard, regening LSG, S4 flaming archers, fireball amongst my ranks, D3+1 troops back in any of his units, starting with the command group), or I can let it through and risk him getting T7 Phoenix Guard, ignoring miscasts on a 2+, D6+1 regrowth, etc. His Shadow warriors are a pain, as they can take out light elements of the army easily, either through their missile attacks or through their WS5 ASF shenigans. The Tiranoc Chariot and Silverhelms are enough to stop me from taking too heavy of a missile front.

So you see, your suggestion of an auto win through RxBs just doesn't work against a skilled tin can High Elf list. If I march them 10" forward as you suggest, he charges them with his heavy cavarly and chariot, which really hurts and can easily rout them (particularly as we have to deploy in lines rather than columns because we dont have volley fire). If I hold them back, he whittles me down from afar. Our elite troops are relatively easy to dispatch: his 2 RBTs hurt any CoKs I bring and Black Guard don't last long against massed bowfire, particularly S4 flaming arrows. Finally, he usually finishes deploying first, which gives him +1 to the starting dice roll, which combines with his mage's magic item of +1 to start. So he almost always goes first, giving him two clear rounds of shooting with his archers and RBTs at me before I can even hit him back with missile fire. Two rounds on the receiving end of shooting (including possibly S4 fire shots) is painful for DE. Oh, and don't forget that lore of life means he can heal wounds to multi-wound models within 12" of his mage when he casts a lore of life spell - preventing me from killing his dragon mage (or even his chariot) with missile fire unless I get really lucky.

The thing is, I do know how to beat this army, and I have done so a good few times. But I can 100% reassure that not all High Elf players are not going to be seriously bogged down by massed RxBs. It's a good idea to have other ideas to consider too.

That is for me where chariots come in. They are great for creating a tin can effect of my own. Similarly, knowing exactly which spells to dispel in his magic phase is essential (its throne of vines and T5 skin btw).

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Thu Dec 29, 2011 10:37 am
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Scion of Hag Graef wrote:
Has anyone got any tactics on taking out High Elf Swordmasters and their annoying Mages?
Mod's note:
This thread is about one question: one D.netter has a problem with swordmasters and mages.

If you can help him to solve that problem, many thanks.
If your reaction is to deny his problem, to consider it as menial, or to suggest he should just avoid that problem, then please either elaborate a real tactical answer, or don't answer anything.

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Thu Dec 29, 2011 11:26 am
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Yes and I have answered that in the simplest way possible. Shoot them. Archers are best dealt by shooting them or faster units like COK or Hydras even with a Banner of Flame, needing 6's to wound is not easy followed by a 4+ save. Against Swordmasters it's the same thing. Shoot them for 2 turns then hit them in the flanks if possible with multicharges.

I understand where you are coming from Red but you see that kind of HE list suffers when going against other armies and thus I personally don't see that kind of set up anymore. If I estimate correctly that is a list that goes beyond 2200 points meaning he will face armies that are of the same pointage.

(edit)
I tried making a sample all-comers list to go against that HE but midway I just lost interest as there are too many factors that can happen that will change the game but the fact of the matter is, it is still and elf army. There are no ifs and buts. Any elf army dies to shooting as well as the other and in perfect vacuum, the elf army that has less shooting will have a harder time against the army that has more. I have fought lists with 40 LSG 4 Bolt Throwers and 10 Archers + PG and Mages early in the 8th edition and I must admit that I found it harder to get to his lines intact than I do with more balanced lists that has block troops and support shooting. If I were to field a mirror list as close to that one you will see that who ever gets the first turn has the great game changing advantage from the the player who goes second. Imagine this.

Supreme Sorceress, Sac Dag + Whatever Shadow
Sorceress level 2 Dark
Dreadlord on Dark Pegasus the works
Cauldron of Blood BSB

20 RXBmen, Shield, Standard, Musician
20 RXBmen, Shield, Standard, Musician
20 RXBmen, Shield, Standard, Musician
30 Corsairs, FC, SSS

5 Shades
5 Shades
5 Shades
5 Shades
12 COK


Bolt Throwers
Bolt Throwers

If I go first I can march all the Crossbowmen up. Use the 4 units of Shades to surround the far flung Bolt Thrower or go behind the Archers. I shoot both RBT and Shades to the Archers. Then I fly the DL for the Dragon. On your turn even if you quick reform to face the Shades and kill 2 units, the other 2 units go unscathed and on my next turn I have 3 units of RXBmen shooting at your LSG. 120 shots will wipe them out with or without the help of the Shades or RBT. now you went first with the HE it will something like your LSG hold their ground, your Archers and RBT try to whittle the Shades OR you go try to whittle down my mage's bunker and hope to force it to panic to gain the advantage in the magic phase. Whatever the result is, I will waste my first turn to move up the Crossbowmen and try to kill as much with my Shades and RBT ignoring the other elements till turn 2. on turn 2 all my units shoot at your closest unit (Silver Helms) and they will die. My COK moves up and now you have to deal with them by magic or shooting leaving my RXBmen safe from harassment. As you can see whoever can outshoot his opponent more controls the tempo of the game. It will be pointless to argue as to what you will do otherwise. Shooting elves will always be better if you have the units that can do it well. Ever since IOB came out the number of HE players in our area has tripled and they all have the same experience when going against DE mass RXB fire. It hurts. They have tried putting archers and LSGs to try and combat the RXBS but the truth about the matter is the HE have more expensive troops being an older army book and don't have the raw number of shots nor the high strength ones to compensate for the edition change. Our RXB are better than their LSG being cheaper and more resilient in combat. The armor piercing rule compensates for being s3 and range 24" but since we can move then shoot, the single turn of harder shooting has minimal impact as we have twice as much bodies than archers.

_________________
8th Edition

W/D/L
86/1/5

New AB
W/D/L
32/1/0

9th Age
W/D/L

Vae Victis
Character kill count -182

"To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill."

Armies
Dark Elves
Dark Eldar
Death Korps of Kreig


Fri Dec 30, 2011 1:20 pm
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Noble

Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2011 8:37 pm
Posts: 403
Post 
Shades will single-handedly ruin just about every High Elf army, they simply cannot deal with them without having to send a large chunk of their force to do so- so deploy the shades out on the flanks where your opponent has to really go out of their way to get to them. Even dragon princes drop pretty quickly.

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Fri Dec 30, 2011 2:53 pm
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