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Death By A Thousand Cuts 2k - Battle Report #3 VS Orcs is up 
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The Guiding Eye
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Joined: Tue Jun 11, 2002 9:19 pm
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Location: Sat drinking 'soul stealer' cocktails in the city of Vilebrier with Morathi...
Battle Report #1 VS Daemons here [click <<< for link]
Battle Report #2 VS High Elves here [click <<< for link]
Battle Report #3 VS Orcs and Goblins here [click <<< for link]

Its been 8 months since I've had a game of fantasy, and upon realising I had more time on my hands I decided to sign up to a tournament with some friends and return to a concept I was beginning to assemble prior to my disappearance from all things druchii: a combined Morathi and Dark Rider list that could compete at all standard battle scenarios in the rulebook.

Upon returning to the concept in these last days, taking a feather duster to my rules memory and scanning my book like a new fangled smart phone reading a QR code, I came to realise that sadly Morathi was just not quite viable in 2000pt competitive games: though this would have been improved if she had access to the focus familiar (extended range and better hiding opportunities).

So I scrapped that list and came up with this...

DEATH BY A THOUSAND CUTS: 2000pts

Supreme Sorceress: 400
Level 4 (DEATH)
Lifetaker, Focus Familiar, Pendent of Khaleth
Dark Pegasus

Sorceress: 197*
Level 2 (FIRE)
Tome of Furion, Black Dragon Egg, Dragonbane Gem
Dark Steed

*runs solo most of the time and uses long range as her defence: 36" and 48" fireballs baby!

Master: 225
Battle Standard Bearer
Lance, Repeater Crossbow, Heavy Armour, Shield
Cloak of Hag Grief, Dawnstone
Dark Pegasus

CHARACTERS: 817
----------------------

7 Dark Riders: 175
Repeater Crossbows
Musician, Standard

7 Dark Riders: 175
Repeater Crossbows
Musician, Standard

6 Dark Riders: 153
Repeater Crossbows
Musician, Standard

5 Harpies: 55

CORE = 503 (558 with Herps)
----------------------

9 Shades: 153
dual hand weapons

9 Shades: 153
dual hand weapons

9 Shades: 144

SPECIAL = 450
----------------------

War Hydra: 175
----------------------

TOTAL = 2000
------------------------------------------------------------------

Change #1: added Dragon Bane Gem to Level 2, new army total = 2000pts on the nose.

So let me talk through a little of my thinking here: the concept is avoidance, snipe and eliminate EVERY element in the enemy army that poses a threat to ANY of our units (possibly with an exception to the Hydra as it is slow and will be occasionally used to draw fire), this will be done through a priority system for working out what is the greatest threat and then working down the list.

Notably this will include:

1) spell casters with the capability of casting direct damage and magic missile attacks that will SEVERELY hurt our units (because these are almost always auto hits they can wipe our skirmishers very quickly - we can ignore initiative test based spells as we lose VERY few models to these spells).

2) units that auto hit in large numbers - including attacks in the movement phase such as hex wraiths and screamers.

3) units with the ability to harm our skirmishers - even whilst we occupy light and heavy cover (excellent protection vs most BS based shooting) such as warmachines, high BS enemies, sheer volume of fire (goblin archers) etc.

4) very fast moving cavalry, skirmishers and fliers - eg. fiends/seekers of slaanesh, brettonian pegasus knights, harpies, furies etc.

5) units that allow no charge response or that can charge without needing LOS eg. hell pit abominations, steam tanks, chaos spawn.

This army will rely VERY heavily upon good thinking and placing in the deployment phase: it will very likely gain +1 for first turn due to having only 6 deployment drops including characters: 3 of these have vanguard and so can bait the enemy into deploying against them and then redeploying elsewhere. All the characters have a move of 9" or 10" and so can similarly redeploy on turn 1.

Staying out of LOS as much as possible, prioritising and focus firing followed by mopping up all serve to this armies purpose - meaning that it is NOT a very friendly list! It also has some pretty tough 'balanched/common' matchups on the competitive scene but also in day-to-day armies:

- multiple skink/saurus veteran + slann Lizardmen lists. Add in a touch of terradons and/or salamanders for added challenge! (fairly standard mix)
- empire war alter/steam tank/heavens and/or light magic/war machines (fairly standard mix)
- coven of light High Elves: 3 white wizards + lots of shooting
- Khalida's 'sky blot' archer list with 60+ skellie archers.
- Tzeentch Warriors of Chaos occupying The Watchtower scenario.
- gladeguard 'leafblower' lists with LOTS of shooting

Anyway that enough food for thought - what do you reckon? Let me know if you'd like any explanations for choices or if you have any suggestions regarding composition.

I am considering a couple of things:
- magic weapon on the BSB (but what to drop?)
- dark magic on level 2 (but then she loses a major defence: long range away from enemy missiles/spells: which fire affords + chance for flame cage to hold enemies in position or flaming sword for NASTY shooting power...)

Enjoy!


Last edited by Dangerous Beans on Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:50 am, edited 4 times in total.



Tue Jan 17, 2012 2:39 am
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I think you might find that it's a lot harder than you expect to hide stuff this edition- swift reforms and the like mean that most armies can redeploy rapidly.

I really think you need something in the lsit that won't die to a couple of magic missiles- each of those dark rider units is incredibly flimsy, and gives up almost 200pts. Also, remember that in order for them to be able to shoot they have to get within 24"- which means that a lot of the time, they'll be getting shot/magicked back.

With Lifetaker on the Sorceress, just be aware that she can't march and shoot it (same with the xbow on the BSB), so the effective range is cut down a bit. It's not a big deal, but considering a lot of the time she'll need to be marching to get within range for Death spells you might find it's not quite worthwhile.

You've also not really got anything that can really pack much of a punch- realistically, with so much of the army flitting around, your opponent will likely end up focusing on one unit each turn, so you can probably expect to lose a unit of dark riders/shades each turn- you don't really have the damage output to match that, beyond character sniping and each unit you lose is pretty expensive and takes a fair bit out of the list- if you can't beat the other army just by shooting it you'll run into a bit of trouble...

Having said that, it's an interesting idea regardless of how well I think it may/may not work, so I'll keep track of your battle reports :)

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Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:44 am
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This again? Please post battle reports please so we may be enlightened on how you can actually pull this off against most armies. I am very much interested in you facing the following if you have players with such armies in your LFGS.

Your standard Empire army- 2 Mortars, Canon, Stank, Waralter + infantry blocks of choice
Your typical still trying to play Empire Gunline army. HBC, Canon+Stank+ Pistoliers+Handgunners or Crossbowmen + Detachments
Your standard Skaven -WLC, HPA, Weapons teams +2 or so blocks of Slaves
Your standard OnG 2 blocks of 50-70 NG+ your choice of Orcs+ a few DDs and Fantics
WE. Just plain old AVOIDANCE WE. Alternoble, Treeman, 4-6 units of Glade Guard, Waywatchers and maybe Glade Riders

These are by no way catered armies, just the ones you will normally see on board so I am looking forward to such. Peace out.

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Tue Jan 17, 2012 5:15 am
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It's an interesting list. I must confess that I'm not a huge fan of avoidance lists - even in 7th ed when they worked really well. I like to get stuck in, hip deep in hacking and slashing melee madness, not running around in circles refusing to ever really engage.

I guess there are two questions you have to ask in regards to this list:

1 - Is it fun? That means both for you and your opponent. If the answer is no for either, I'd suggest you shelve it and try a different approach. I think this kind of list can be very frustrating to play against, because you never really get to play against it, just whirl around in circles while getting gradually whittled down. That might be effective, but is it fun for your opponent?

2 - Is it effective? As others have suggested, in 8th ed it can be far harder to survive damage from the enemy: war machines have got better, it's easier to turn and shoot at the same time (quick reform with musicians), and generally easier for your opponent to align their forces to deal with this kind of thing.

I can't really judge the list much, as I never play this kind of army. But, if it's both fun and effective, then sounds like a good list to me. If it fails to pass muster in either of those areas, though, then maybe it's time to think again.

By the way, I love the logic on the level 2 with fire :) lobbing 48" fireballs across the table sounds awesome. Of course, she no longer gets a -1 modifier for being a single model and cannons are now insanely good at sniping, so you may find she gets picked off by cannons and bolt throwers fairly easily.

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Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:09 pm
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Thank you all for your replies - they're much appreciated in this experiment!

Firstly, I got a 2nd game in last night vs the Coven of Light Asur list: 3 light wizards (1 BSB with radiant gem of hoeth), 3 archer units, swordmasters and white lions...

Secondly, let me make one point clear to begin with folks - even though I have been away from gaming for 8 months, I did play my fair share of 8th ed games prior to that so I'm by no means a noob, just perhaps a little rusty and may take several games before I regain any semblance of form haha!

Thirdly: I think people can easily come across as being very defensive about an army list that they've decide to post even though your intention is for it to be openly discussed - I don't mean to be sounding overly defensive in this thread if thats how it comes across - more that I'm trying to explain my rationale behind it...

That said, I'll begin the replies! :D

@ mr richards: the thing with the redeployment is that, yes they can turn to face and yes their move-and-shoot units may indeed draw a bead to my units (though I would try my damned hardest to position myself with one of their units/a building/terrain blocking at least half of my unit if I can), however their combat units won't be able to do very much one I march (thanks to the proximity of the flying BSB) round out of their sight again and then pepper their missile units. Basically, if I play it right, this list should not really see any close combats unless they're on my terms. Thus is may quickly become a war of attrition between missile units that determines the outcome of the games: it punishes opponents for fielding fewer but larger combat blocks - which tends to be the 'go-to' styled unit choice for most opponents.
However I do agree that using this army will require a very strict and well played method for it to be a success: failing to do that will mean you will likely lose VERY quickly. Point taken on the Dark Riders too: they are the weakest link in this list as far as I can tell and though I have taken some precautions to optimising the unit size (I have had 2 games now and the DRs didn't do 'that' much in them, however as points denial, they are the best thing we have going).
In that sense do you think 2 units of 10 would be better? It might allow me some spare points for a 2nd unit of Harpies too.

@ Ichiyo: yes, there are some tough match ups, and some of these are more of a common choice than some others, theres not much point with theoryhammer (though for the sake of it I'd outline the main concept behind my army vs the empire in general).
EG. Empire are a very tough match up and it quickly becomes a game of who can devastate the other first? If I manage to remain out of LOS and kill off their Level 4 or send a purple sun up the flank of their turtled army (best deployment to a sparse scouting and fast army like mine) OR they try to minimise the damage of the Sun by spreading out a bit more

I think that some of the things to consider with my list is that it is really built for competitive tournaments that are:
- not comped or limited in unit choices
- for 2000pt games not 2400pts
- based on a win/loss/draw not the 20/0 system.

And now onto the philosophy with good old Red... (who has FINALLY gotten a picture after 2 and a half years! Congrats dude - whos the character off? :D)

@ Red... : I have to say that I've never really tried avoidance since our way old book back in 6th Edition (our new book had too many combat toys to try and test out so my approach so far, until the Morathi/Dark Rider concept in April last year, was very much like yours ;)). This army is certainly not for casual games or for (as I mention above) certain tournament formats but rather for those open ended tourneys where people will try to cram in as much '8th ed uber stuff' as possible: this list is an attempt to fight against that trend and use something really quite different.

So on that front my answers are:
1. its a challenge, and being as I enjoy a challenge (until I realise its impossible) then yes its fun - equally for my opponent the list is'nt invincible and can be beaten but will prove tough to do so. In which case it could be fun for the opponent to try... ;)

2. time will tell, I'll post the 2nd batrep up soon and you can see some of the pointers about where I need to improve (and my rustiness comes out haha!), my opponents can align to face it sure, but thats more negatives to hit and if I'm canny then they will be shooting with some other penalties.

All I can really say is that I shall have to try and test this list as much as possible, its by no means invincible but could prove effective if/once I have honed how to use it - which may take quite some time!

Batrep #2 up soon...

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Last edited by Dangerous Beans on Sun Jan 22, 2012 12:21 am, edited 1 time in total.



Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:13 pm
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Mate, i like the list, but i don't think the hydra has much place in 8th as everyone who knows what they are doing knows how to deal with it. I personally with that list like 2 RBTs to deploy on the flanks. You should have enough shooting to kill there shooting elements and give good range.

But Woodies would have a field day with the army though.

Also have you thought about mounting the other level 2 on a peg as well for the extra wound, and flight.

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Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:40 pm
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Hi Beans :D

I remember this concept from a while back and even read some of your battle reports! Good to see ya back in the game ;)

Needs more Harpies!

The second sorceress... Why the BDE egg if she a ranged caster? Surely you want her to be as far away from the enemy as possible, and the BDE is very much a close ranged weapon. You could use her as a flank/rear charger using the breath for some combat res, but I think this may be a waste of her other abilities. Especially since Fireball is a magic missile (it is, isn't it?).

Plenty of shades in there. I love shades, personally, do you not feel the need for any Bloodshades at all? With so many of them you'd think at least one unit would be good enough to warrant an upgrade.

... And a Hydra, I never leave home without at least one!

One last little niggle - I think your BSB might be better with twin handbows rather than a RPT Xbow. More shots and quick to fire means you can march him behind units and still shoot to full effect. Just a though!

I'm sure you'll get back into the game in no time!

MG

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Fri Jan 20, 2012 11:10 am
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Hiya chaps, thanks for the responses! And minigrift I thought I might be able to tempt you to comment as you'd popped along last time I'd brought up a similar concept but with Morathi instead :) I should be writing up batrep #2 with this list tonight, though its pretty short and brutal!

@ Mitch: can you go into some more detail about why Woodies would have a field day? Particularly if your reasoning is based on a fairly standard competitive list but not necessarily limited to just that. Theoryhammer though it is (until I get some games in against similar lists) I believe that, used correctly, my list would certainly give them a run for their money :D

The Hydra is there because the tournament I'm attending will likely see the Watchtower Scenario rolled up: 5/6 chance in fact. The hydra is a later game tower clearer that paves way for my shades to occupy and hold. Meanwhile the rest of my list tries (VERY HARD) to distract the remaining parts of his army and psychologically convince him to take his eye off the goal by chasing my shadows: evil I know but very dark elf like! :twisted:
Not only that, but as Minigrift suggests it also draws fire like a magnet (taking heat off the parts of my army that DO mean something) AND can be highly useful for finishing off larger units with his breathe weapon - combined with the breathe weapon of the level 2 and the remaining firepower/magic I have should see units crumble quite quickly if they are focus fired upon.

@ Minigrift: The BDE is really either for protection (vs scouting/fast cav trying to hunt her down as she gains T6 for that player turn, or for late game finishers to enemy units: once the enemy shooting/magic is silenced, she can then zip in and breathe all over an enemy unit: preferably with a low T and little armour save: empire halberdiers or skeleton warriors are prime examples. The Shade units don't have a bloodshade because it meant missing out on 2 more shots for not much gain - though I AM considering taking 1 unit as a unit of 6 in case I come up against a bad matchup such as woodies: the idea would be to place myself as close as possible (3x2 formation) and take a major gamble on gaining the first turn (odds are slightly on my side due to so few deployment drops) and then charging either the flank of an enemy unit such as gladeguard or by charging an enemy unit with a level 4/wizard with magic missiles as our average charge range is 12". VERY risky I know, but on the kind of matchups that seem to look like an autolose situation it might go some distance to redressing the balance!

I forgot to mention too that my final 5pts from the list is spent on the Dragonbane Gem to prevent enemy fireballs/flickering fires killing her off at long range ;)

I agree that the list could do with a 2nd Harpy unit and also the dual handbow Master, but where would I get the points from? I could possibly drop the size of one shade unit to 6 instead of 9 and so free up 51 points, take 6pts away (upgrading the masters R.Crossbow for 2 R.Handbows) so I would then gain 45 points.

I have also considered (and this is a long way off yet until I get at least 8-10 games in with JUST what I've written in the OP) dropping the unit of 6 Dark Riders for a unit of Crossbowmen purely for added firepower and to keep the enemy focused on a target. Of course, the unit would not be manoeuvrable enough to escape most enemies so it would like give up VPs every game. However if they meant the gaining of more VPs than their cost then it was a worthwhile trade off! :D

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Fri Jan 20, 2012 4:28 pm
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Thanks Dangerous Beans :D Actually, thinking about the two elements combined, I think your army is probably a good one. It's strong, but not as overpowered as it would have been during 7th ed, which means that your opponent can and will have things he/she can do against it. It will probably make for a different type of game, which might be a refreshing change from the standard 'stump stuff across the board and engage in huge unit mass scrums' that are now quite commonal in 8th ed. The Hydra is actually a good case in point - in 7th ed it was excessively strong, now there are definite counters that your opponent not only can bring, but also probably will have (or have easily accessible), such as fireballs, flaming banners, massed fire power, stepping up in combat etc etc. That makes it fun to play with - very powerful still, but now slightly risky and certainly not unbeatable.

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Fri Jan 20, 2012 10:07 pm
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HAHA! Love it! Yeah I heard some good things about the Yu Gi Oh game but have never tried it yet so don't worry dude I'm not one to judge :)

I am glad your opinion of the list is that it is not as overtly powerful as it might first appear: I think it places a lot of its success in the hands of a very capable general, but used right could prove to be VERY powerful under the right circumstances (see my comment on the competitive environment this list is designed for above).

I have now finished writing up the second battle report, though it is a short affair there is much to be learnt from it: more so than my first game, I shall detail things about it soon.

All C&C is welcome as always :)

the link for batrep #2 is HERE. (or see the OP at the top)

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Sun Jan 22, 2012 10:43 pm
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Hey Beans!

I think its a cool list and you could do some nasty things to certain opponents, ie armies with little shooting and average magic will tear their hair out against the list!

However, there are a couple of bad match ups you could come up against.

1: A list with as much shooting as you. Im thinking empire/dwarf gunline, who will outshoot you no problem. This is especially true for dwarves who your crossbows find it even harder to wound t4! Now this normally isnt a problem for Dark Elves as we will sustain the heavy casualties but more often than not we push through and reach the enemy lines with enough to break the gun line. This is the problem with your list, you have no models that can do that, besides the Hydra and BSB. The hydra isnt that hard to knock out with a cannon or two (bloody first turn kills!) and the BSB doesnt have the abilty to beat a unit by himself.

2: A list with big units. Crossbow bolts are not enough to kill units of 50+, especially if they are t4 blocks. Combine this with the new VCs who will raise as many as you kill, and you run into big problems quick.

3: A magic missile heavy list. You dont have a scroll or the SOG, which means magic missiles will go through frequently, pretty much knocking out a unit a turn.

That all said, against the right opponents you should trounce. Look forward to hearing your successes :D

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Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:18 pm
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As a major part of the list writing process (and the evil git who blew him up in the second battle rep) I suppose I should post something smart here

Firstly the list doesn't work like a 'standard' eighth ed list. This will most likely win or lose in turns 1-3 based on whether cal can destroy the other guys ability to fight back or not.

Most standard 8th armies only have a few tools threatening to this list and the list has answers to all of them.

Big units are fine. We're talking Win loss draw from the book 100 points is enough to win. Despite what people seem to think the list doesn't give up points that easily most of the units will take 2 magic missiles to wipe out, the first will wreck the unit leaving 1/2 guys. So then the choice -> missile 2 to finish the unit or wreck another one which kills far more men?

This all under the pressure of a very mobile very far reaching death mage who is gunning for your wizard with magic missiles as priority 1

Most 'standard' armies have very limited bs shooting and only 1 mage with magic missiles. Fire magic plus focus fire will kill those units fast. Chances are cal is now up on points and can back off into full evasion mode while picking one block to try and whittle off (soulblight plus xbows plus fire magic can wreck big units fast)

Warmachine heavy lists are awkward but realistically its 1-2 shots each and then shades/purp sun/the master/ the peg mage will be in killing them off. Oh and once again very few things in the army are likely give up points to one warmachine shot (the hydra and... oh right thats it) making it extremly unlikely the warmachines will make anything close to enough point to off set their death. (barring an unlucky pendant save)

Basically the list is based on simple target priority:
1. shooting
2. magic missile mages (who in most armies are level 2 support wizards and therefore deathsnipe bait)
3. Enjoy being dark elfy and hitting the poor defenseless bait anyway you fancy.

I can think of a bunch of lists which are hard work but I don't see any as auto loss. Even my coven list (and yes I do run this all the time so it wasn't just me being an evil git) can be beaten/drawn with if you play right.

The lists biggest problem I can see is watchtower which is plain ghastly if there is a large tough unit on the other side of the board even then big fireballs can do a number on most big units and i've taken buildings with solo characters and doom and darkness a couple of times to win watchtower games, this list can easily do the same.

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Mon Jan 23, 2012 5:37 pm
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You forgot to mention Blood and Glory. Off the bat, Watchtower, Blood and Glory and possibly Battle for the Pass will give the list some problems. You can win with the list that I can tell you, the question is how often? Once your opponent gets the whole avoidance mess thing, provided he has the tools to counter them, he will eventually catch on and win via smart countering. Still I'd like to see more battle reps.

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Tue Jan 24, 2012 12:46 am
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Hello everybody - as always thank you very much for your the replies and thoughts: thank you also to Eldria who was the high elf player that schooled me quite quickly last thursday (see Batrep 2) and helped me to refine this list.

I'll start from the top, work down and then conclude with my current thinking having had a chat with Calisson about the list (thank you for help Calisson, I'll reply shortly!) - hopefully I won't warble on like the old man that I am haha! :lol:

@ Demetrius - heya buddy! Long time no see - glad to see you're here on druchii.net still! I've missed that predator avatar! :D The list will CERTAINLY have a bloody tough time against gunlines make no mistake - as you particularly note: Dwarves will prove to be annoying with good toughness, armour and very little panic. However the converse to that is that their main staple of 'mass missile' firepower comes from thunderers and crossbows. Frankly I don't know the dwarf book at all (in terms of whats good and whats bad to take for them) but I think that crossbows tend to be fielded more due to cost reasons: however as a move or fire weapon, much of my army can take advantage of this by positioning out of LOS.

Similarly the Empire tend to take a mix of either crossbowmen and/or handgunners with only huntsmen being used in small scouting groups - thus their move or fire rule means I should be fairly ok from early on if I position myself out of their LOS. Not only this but if I deploy the shades close to the 12" mark then it may not be too hard to run 10" to get outside of their LOS again before their next shooting phase.

Of course, one of the issues with both of these armies is the warmachines, both lists are likely to field at least 1 (very likely 2) cannons and the same with a grudge thrower/hellstorm rockets/mortar. It is these 2nd form of war machines that I need to worry about because the first will only kill 2 men maximum (or less if I deploy in single rank facing him). However when most of my army will be deployed quite thinly (dark riders in 1x7/6 shades in 2x5) there is a good chance the template will scatter in front or behind the unit and so missing it entirely. I would also hope that by shoving Mr Bernie (my first ever hydra :P) in view, then they would go "OMG KILL THE MONSTER!!!!!!" - particularly if I jibe at them and say that there is nothing in my army that makes their war machines worth while: though they don't realise it, the pegasus characters are quite well protected against cannons and the like, and even the level 2 has a 2+ ward vs flaming cannonballs... ;)

Saying all of that however I DO certainly need to take care of them (the warmachine comment would be a red herring you see) but with the best tools our army offers (shades, dark riders, harpies, flying characters) in spades, I think I should be able to destroy their warmachines fairly quickly: unless of course they misfire and do it for me that is :D

Large combat units should not be a massive issues either (though point taken on characters - especially lone ones, though who the hell would walk around alone with 3 units of shades deployed close by and fireballs aimed at your head is anyones guess?!) as my units would march back and fire (followed by a flee reaction!) or if possible simply run outside of their LOS: no seeing, no charging! And even if they do catch a unit of shades they'll be award 153 VPs: congrats! See below however for when they COULD prove to be a pain in the arse...

@ Ichiyo1821: I concur that these 3 scenarios are the toughest of the ones in the book (which I WILL be fighting 5 games over with a random chance of each one per game - though no scenario may be repeated over the weekend so there is 1 scenario we Won't play: phew, wordy...). I think we all know that Watchtower will be an ABSOLUTE bugger for my army, however with 3D6 Fireballs, a good chance (64%?) of rolling up flaming sword and then running Mr Bernie in to clear the tower once the all occupents are devastated (I hope), plus my level 4 sniping out enemy characters. Hell even charging my level 2 in to try and breathe weapon the enemy in combat (thankyou I5 + Black Dragon Egg to give T6 for a turn!) could even be possible if I WERE that desperate (I prefer lobbing fireballs though).

Blood and Glory: yes my 3 Dark Riders hold most of the points here (I don't have my BRB to hand so what I write next might not be quite correct - it assumes that my opponent has to kill off 5 out of the 6 total ponts that my banners/generals death/BSB give me) but even if they kill all 3 units of DRs, they STILL have to kill off 1 of my characters as well. And believe me, I will be likely hiding the DRs for most of that game early on (until the threats are silenced from which point is business as usual). My army was not designed lightly - it has a total of 6 fortitude for this scenario (2 for general, 1 for BSB and each DR unit).

The one that has me a little nervous is (as Demetrius suggests) large, tough units (with a good armour save such as grave guard/tomb guard) placed in a line in the Battle for the Pass scenario: my old incarnation of the Death By A Thousand Cuts suffered a defeat at the hands of 3 ghoul hordes led by a caster vamp in a graveguard horde (thanks again Eldria! ;)), follow THIS LINK if you wish to read the batrep on it (it has pretty diagrams!).

I think in these circumstances, purple sun could work wonders if fighting a lower I army (O & G as well), but the principle would be the same: focus fire on one target whilst flying all over the place trying to march block (if I can get in range of 4 units with my 3 flyers then there is a good chance 1 will fail and so will fall behind the others - which might open a gap) + kill off the enemy wizards ASAP thanks to death snipes. Besides, my opponent might get a little distracted if/when I place down 3 large shade units in his back yard area!

Point taken on more bat reps and getting games in, sadly that may not occur for another week or so (I'll try and get a game in against Skaven this coming weekend if I can). I have made a note of certain lists that would give this a run for its money, but first I just want some 'general' games to try her out and get my dusty old gaming brain back into gear.

So, my current thoughts? Well as I've written another essay response, I'll keep this brief and just discuss some minor cuts/changes I'm considering:

After chatting with Calisson who reckons she (the list) needs some more harpies as much for screening purposes than anything else, coupled with my thoughts for a 'suicide shade' unit to tackle war machines/flanks of enemy missile units on the first turn (deploy 12" away and charge them!) which means reducing the size of one unit so that its not such a waste of points.

Thus the following would occur:

- 9 shades with no additional HWs = 144pts gained
+ 6 shades with additional HWs = 102pts lost, 42 remaining.
+ 3 Harpies to the unit of 5 = 33pts lost (9 remaining)
+ upgrade the Master's repeater crossbow to a Pair of Handbows (6pts difference) = 3pts remaining.


What this means: against enemy gunlines, the harpy unit can be spread out to be 8x1 and so give any DRs behind it (use vanguard move to nip behind) an extra -2 to be hit on turn one: thus likely a -3 will occur due to long range. However the cost is the loss of 6 shades shots, but now ALL my shades have dual hand weapons (for that 10x2 enemy missile unit flank charge/late game 'nearly destroyed enemy unit' finisher). Further more, although I lost 6 shots from the shades, I gained an extra 2 from the Master that suffer no move or range penalties (but doesn't have Armour Penetration)

Do these seem like good changes to make? I think for some time I'll keep running the list as it is and then after I've had 6 games with it I will know if its needed ;)

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Death of a Thousand Cuts armylist + batreps TLOEDG (The League of Extraordinary Druchii Gentlemen)


Tue Jan 24, 2012 2:39 am
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Post 
Ichiyo1821 wrote:
You forgot to mention Blood and Glory.


As beans noted BnG is easy and can largely be ignored as a consideration. The forward tight deployment actually supports this army. If no one breaks then its to VPs but with death it is easy for the list to take generals/bsbs then ping off a unit or two to make armies break.

Ichiyo1821 wrote:
Off the bat, Watchtower, Blood and Glory and possibly Battle for the Pass will give the list some problems.


BFP is slightly awkward but again it depends how good the person on the other side of the table is and how well they can counter MSU.

Ichiyo1821 wrote:
You can win with the list that I can tell you, the question is how often? Once your opponent gets the whole avoidance mess thing, provided he has the tools to counter them, he will eventually catch on and win via smart countering. Still I'd like to see more battle reps.


Its a tournament army each person gets 1 chance to get it right and most armies simply do not have the tools (particularly as cals is designed to remove them in turn 1/2) to deal with this list. Yes he will take losses to these things but wll they kill units wholesale? Will they kill anything near enough? I seriously doubt it.

You talk very specifically about his bad matches and focus on the lists which hurt this, most simply do not work like that.

I'll give you a run down of what I tend to see when I go a tournamenting in the uk (I did 20 last year...)

The average dwarf list is big great weapon blocks and 4-5 WM. thats bait for this army.

Looking at the other dark elf lists at 2k on here they have what 20-30 xbows? Thats removed as a threat in 1 turn of shooting. Then you down the knights if they have any and then you laugh. Even a well built mass shade list is fighting fire on fire and cals entire list is gunline so they will be outnumbered in that game. (so its hard and he might lose to dice but the advantage is his, Death lev 4 trumps shadow one who is largely irrelevant to the game)

High Elves and Wood Elfs are much harder because they have more BS shooting depending on build. I'd like to add that at TOS I'm pretty much the only person who runs more than 20 high elf archers most people use spears making them easy prey as well. (bolters hurt turn 1 then die to mass shooting/firebal/spirit leech/caress the peg master)

Emp is interesting built right they have a lot of good answers: Stanks, W.alter and good artillery, light or fire wizards (I'm not talking about xbows or handgunners seriously no one who does well takes many of them) but they have a hard choice. Castle and risk a game ending purple sun. OR scatter to protect from it and face being sliced open by cals faster moving army. (uncomped remember so cal can simply jammy a magic phase big purp sun at them)

TK are a bad joke particularly if you nail there heriophant and aren't scared of sphinxs (which we aren't, chariots are more of a threat and still easy to deal with)

New VC: Could be hard depending on etherals and stuff I honestly don't know enough about them to say anything certain.

WOC: Built right this is awful, their disc characters could run roughshod over cals entire list single handed. Hellcannon potentially a bit of a pest too. Nothing else even wirth a mention. Also the only match up when cal will not be taking fireball ;)

DOC: Fully built chaff list with siren sing and standard: Hard match (Reads as fun in my head as its anyones game) Greater demon list = bait.

Brets: Trebs are threatening until you kill them, then its just a case of picking up points and keeping away. Shades can dance knights all day and the dark riders can simply vanish.

OnG: Well built chaff with double doom diver, rock lobber mass chariots = painful the game plan is to focus a flank out and prevent them playing their game. Purp sun a game breaker.

Beastmen: Another bad joke I can't think of much threatening they can pull beyong miasma spam which won't last long vs death. Once general/BSB nuetered panic sets in easily

Ogres: Most armies running at least a couple of big targets (Double ironblaster is common) which are: Large, expensice and irrelevant. Big blocks of limited threat. Scary things: Firebellies (Tough to deathsnipe and hurty) Greadyfist death level 4s (really bad news) double pistol maneaters (who are one unit, expemsive to easy to kill) Mournfangs (a bit fast really) again purp sun is the game breaker and eliminating the specific threats. Leach kills mournfants, shades kill maneaters, large targets are just that, targets.

Skaven: Kill the grey seer - win. If on foot death should surfice, if on bell, soulblight and every xbow in the army. Abomb / wheel next (fireballs/xbows) Nothing else really worthy of mention.

I feel i've forgotten someone but i'm sure they'll be pointed out.

More reports will follow and if i can get my hands on my other mates DE I may even lower myself to playing a few games with it myself.

The list is not unbeatable but simply because you can not understand it, it does not make it bad. In fact peoples difficulty understanding it is exactly part of why it works.


------------------

Look at this way you have a fire mage, 20 18 man xbow units and 2x 6 shades vs cal. (and thats being generous for most 2k lists in terms of relevant firepower)

You go first and get a big fireball (I'll give a 3d6 one) what do you target? Aim at dark riders sure you kill a unit.
Aim at shades on average you dont (11 hits 8 wounds)

Now what? Fire a full unit at it? or spread you fire to cripple his units? (The correct thing to do is target shades and not risk wasting kills so i'll assume you do that) I'm also not assuming terrain plays nay part in the game

Those shade units of yours are good for 4 hits on his dr so 2 kills, or 1 kill on a shade unit. (I'm assuming you went first and cal deployed right ;))

xbows? Even if he gave you a shot (which is by no means certain) itd be moved, long range at shades, so you kill about 3.

His turn: You've killed what 13 shades? He blows out your fire mage. and returns fire. 14 shades into xbows on moved. kills 7 the riders at long range add 3 more.

Your turn. Now even if he lets your slow moving unshot up crossbow unit get line of fire you get 26 guys and the shades. So he losses another 4-5.

His turn: 9 shade left. He gets his fireball, kills one of your shade units. 9 shades open up on the xbows again killing 4-5 and the riders add another 3 so thats a unit gone. (he could at this point drop his peg master on your other unit but i'll assume you've got it exactly right to prevent that)

Your turn: you can now kill 2 shades (1 from your unit and 1 from the xbows)

His turn: Fireball some more shades, shoot up your xbows... (leaving 12 who can kill 1 shade or so)

Well okay I'll be generous here and say you get it spot on and waste no kills.

He loses 2 shade units, you've lost both shade units, both xbow units and your fire mage. Its tun 3. He can now take pick a unit in your army to delete and Snipe your characters or simply evade as he is already over 100 points up. (I've also not counted his master or life taker)

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Tue Jan 24, 2012 3:37 pm
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Location: Sat drinking 'soul stealer' cocktails in the city of Vilebrier with Morathi...
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Wow. Certainly an in depth analysis there Eldria (probably better than we refer by username) We shall certainly have to go through applying practical experience to each of the theoryhammer scenarios posited by ourselves and indeed the constructive criticism/comments of others, however from 5 games now (I shall post my bat rep vs Skaven in a few days) the list is certainly beginning to look VERY nasty and rather capable: the result against the High Elves is something that I shall have to return to when I am no longer so rusty and will be ready for such a terrible foe!

The match I had against the Skaven this evening was WITHOUT DOUBT one of the closest and most enjoyable games I've had playing warhammer in a VERY long time, and whats more it was fought over the scenario which we have all speculated would prove the toughest to win with this list: The Watchtower...

...Which was destroyed mid-way through our game and from there on in led to a very tense and close game that pitted the wits of us both.

However if anyone were able to have a read of Eldria's battle report and the post any thoughts or criticism over here on the army list forum (mention any rules disputes, commentary on specific tactics etc on the Battle Reports forum if you can) then that'd be great!

This experiment is certainly becoming interesting as we may have hit on a rather unique new way to be using the druchii: more time and tests will show however...

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The Black Treasures of Naggaroth
The Cult of the Vile Rose History
Death of a Thousand Cuts armylist + batreps TLOEDG (The League of Extraordinary Druchii Gentlemen)


Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:10 am
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Yeah i guess usernames are easier monsewer beans ;)

I've got game against a pretty typical empire list lined up for monday, so one by one we shall beat every list Ichiyo posted up... ;)

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Fri Jan 27, 2012 2:46 pm
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How's it a thousand cuts when it's a shooting army? oO

I seriously came in and expected a S3 multi cc attack list lol

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What's mine is mine, What's yours is mine.
Now that we understand each other, lets get down to business.

Jacks -Shade
- WS 5 - - S 3 - - T 2 - - D 6 - - I 5 -

Equipment
Short Sword, MC Long Sword*, Dagger, RxB & RHB [20/10] MC Shade Cloak, 4 Throwing Daggers, 3x Healing Vials, 451C, [3]Dark Venom, [4]Unseen Chains, Food, Dark Steed- Spike

Skills
Basic Stealth, Awareness, TWF, Suithenlu Khythan, Ride

Magic Item
Eye of the Jabberwock

*Magical properties possibly imbued


Wed May 30, 2012 5:17 am
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whoah, I realy enjoy this list

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2/4/3

still getting started, so don't mind that loses, they where sacrificed for the greater good xD


Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:11 pm
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