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March Monthly - Battle Plan Challenge 
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Slave (off the Altar)
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March Monthly - Battle Plan Challenge

(original discussion: http://druchii.net/viewtopic.php?t=70058)

Good evening to all, Druchii gentlemen’s and gentle ladies.
After holding a pool and leeched you suggestions, behold I present you... the Battle Plan Challenge!

Come one and come all as the great circus of Naggaroth’s best is about to begin!

Observe as Malekith’s first sons and Khaine’s daughters showcase their skills in assembling a fearsome force, iron it for their bloody and glorious ambitions and then take command of an army (chosen amongst the best by your humble host) in the middle of a raging battle to crush an army of exotics slaves and other creatures staging as foes.

See Calisson and his corsairs methodically raid and ensnare humans from the empire or any other beardy foe.

Be in awe as Devils Reject comes back from the limbos with rare lore of times back.

Watch Dangerous Beans throwing magnificently obscure insults to taunt the enemy as he traps them in a web of strings.

Be on alert as you may cross path with Lord Tsunami and his ability to get the best from every kind of host under his command.

Heck, there’s maybe even a chance that the almighty Rork make an appearance delivering his knowledge of legend (or beating someone with a hardback rulebook as he inadvertently ignored rules!)

There will also be every other general, be they well renowned or commanding from behind the curtains.

Enter the contest and you may even win prizes like;
- Battle Plan Challenge – Creativity Award
- Battle Plan Challenge – Best overall input Award
- And others to be determined

Entry tickets free!
Food and refreshments are forbidden for soul stealer cocktails, smoked griffon and great eagle buffalo-style wings will be sold inside.

Disclaimer:
Not suitable for the faint of heart. Not suitable for young children’s unless they volunteer for the to-be-butchered opposition. Not an Eco friendly event as we may cut down wood elves and their forest spirits allies. No cash prize unless you take my word for cash.

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English is not my first language, so please be kind by being harsh. Show me my mistakes by PM !


Wed Mar 07, 2012 2:41 am
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Slave (off the Altar)
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Welcome inside ladies and gentlemen. Here is your first challenge, if you accept it.

It will take place in two parts.
1) From today and until March 19, contenders will elaborate, submit and discuss the best additions to be made to the Dark Elves army list. People can add new units, options and/or numbers to existing one but they cannot remove anything from the fixed list. Everything not specified is a free go (magic lore, designation of a general, etc.)
2) On March 20 (or around that date), I will select one of the list submitted. With it, I will simulate a battle and give a snapshot of it (Battle Chronicler). From the list selected and the snapshot, you the warlords are asked to suggest a plan for a full turn (movement, magic, shooting and melee).
From these two parts, we shall learn about both the strategies to consider prior to the game and right into the thick of it.

For Battle Plan Challenge grand opening, what’s more fitting than a grand army list!
This March monthly 1st part is featuring the following...

Game type:
Army size limit: 3000 points
Scenario: Pitched Battle, as per rulebook p. 144, except for following...
Terrain: 1d6 + 4 pieces, placed by third party prior to the game.
Hills are given 4+ chances to be of a special type (like Anvil of Vaul)
6’ x 4’ Table
Deployment: Hidden deployment. A screen will be set in the middle of the board.
Context: Home game, so no crowd to point things out
No time limit

Dark Elves list (fixed part):

Characters
SS (lv4) on foot, general 360 pts
Black Amulet, Black Dragon Egg
Death Hag, Cauldron of blood 200 pts
Sorc (lvl2) on dark Pegasus 235 pts
Pendant of Khaeleth, Tome of Furion

Core
30 Corsairs, add hwpn, fc,, SSS 350 pts
24 Xbows, shields, fc 284 pts
5 Harpies

Core valid pts 634 pts

Special
40 Execs, fc, Banner of Swiftness 525 pts
COC
COC

Rare
War Hydra

Total (fixed) 2384 pts

About the opposition:

Army used: Vampire Counts or High Elves
Army list: Unknown
Player: Conservative (seldom take risks)
Creative (takes rarely seen combo)
Preference for infantry based lists

So that's it folks. What are you going to do with the 616 pts left. Buy support, take another hammer, hire characters?

What lores combination will you choose?

Who will babysit the SS... or is she grown up enough to take care of herself?

Will you take a BSB?


Are you up to the Challenge?

Edit: Removed twin hand bows on reaver of Corsairs units. That way my mistake on points cost should not be impacted too much and people will still need 116 pts of core.

Added core sub-total to clarify the list. I don't know if I'm allowed to input sub-totals for sections like rare (Only 1 War Hydra) without breaking forum rules about points values.

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English is not my first language, so please be kind by being harsh. Show me my mistakes by PM !


Last edited by Grabuge on Wed Mar 07, 2012 11:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Wed Mar 07, 2012 2:50 am
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Ill definitely participate in this one, though i wont do it right now. ill need to think a bit...

just a heads up for every one else who wants to participate. do not forget to buy at least 116p of extra core. so easy to forget such things when you have a half finished list ;)

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Wed Mar 07, 2012 7:07 am
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I would get a Hag BSB with ASF, Manbane and Rune of Khaine to fully get the executioners. So thats 200 points.

Would add 10 Corsairs to the unit and run in horde, 100 points.

Then I would get 40 warriors with shields and FC, and SOD as a SS bunker. 310 points.

I would go Metal on the level 4- glittering robes is great for executioners and corsairs, so is enchanted blade.

I would take Dark on the level 2.

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Wed Mar 07, 2012 10:50 am
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Slave (off the Altar)

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Not sure how well I'll do with this one since neither of these armies is one that I have much experience against. Nevertheless, I'll explain my reasoning so everyone can point out to me where I've gone horribly wrong ;)

Like Demetrius, I'd also go with a death hag bsb with the banner of hag graef, manbane and the rune of khaine - againsthigh elves she'll sit in the corsairs, against vampire counts she'll go in the executioners.

I'd add 11 crossbows to the 24 strong unit and sit the lvl 4 sorceress in there. Deploy them 18x2 and keep them slightly behind the combat blocks, with the sorceress venturing out if a juicy target presents itself for the black dragon egg (like a unit of swordmasters in horde formation).

Another unit of 5 harpies, against high elves I figure more would be helpful to hunt down war machines and screen the pegasus sorceress. Against undead they could march block, redirect and hunt vampire bats.

Finally, another unit of crossbowmen, 20 strong with full command and shields. Standard shooting formation to start with, but can go 5x4 and move forward to act as flankers if too many enemy units survive to get to combat.

Magic wise, I'd go with shadow on the lvl 4 since all the spells in it can be used to good effect against both high elves and vampire counts (although with high elves you'd need to get melkoths off to make pit of shades and pendulum effective). And spells like the withering and melkoths on movement have good synergy with the amount of crossbows in the list.
With the lvl 2 I'd go with fire, since it combines well with the withering, and also has a nice amount of direct damage spells (and flaming sword) to allow you to deal with ethereal creatures.

bsb - 200pts
11 crossbowmen, shields - 121pts
20 crossbowmen, shields, full command - 240pts
5 harpies
total - 616

Well, thats all I can think of, except for pointing out that I love this idea and look forward to seeing what other people come up with. :)


Wed Mar 07, 2012 2:38 pm
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Here's what I would do. I've gone back and added a bit of analysis now, which is in blue.

One quick note -- the points for the corsair unit are wrong. Should be 353 not 350.

Here's my complete list with new stuff underlined. Total points come to 2999:

Lords:

Supreme Sorceress, Level 4, Black Amulet, Black Dragon Egg, Lore of Death

Shadow is the usual choice, but I've been using Death on my Level 4 lately and really like it, especially against Vamps. They are nothing without their characters, and Death takes them out. It's also really good against single-model spirit host units that you see vamp players use. Plus there is Purple Sun! Snipe spells are great against High Elves as well, and Soul Blight gives you a big edge in combat with them.

Heroes:

Sorceress, Level 2, Pendant of Khaeleth, Tome of Furion, Lore of Dark Magic, Dark Pegasus

Death Hag, Cauldron, Battle Standard

Master, Heavy Armor, Shield, Whip of Agony, Cloak of Hag Graef, Dark Pegasus

I like Dark Magic on the Level 2 since it has spells that can wreck infantry units (Soul Stealer and Black Horror) but that are short ranged. The Pegasus lets her get in a place to use them. Plus, the low casting values of the spells are important since power dice will be at a premium (no Sac Dagger in the army)

The Master is good for clearing out ethereals and chaff units like Great Eagles. Also gets in the backfield to take down corpse carts and other Vamp support units.

I added the BSB to the cauldron instead of taking a Death Hag BSB with ASF banner since that model is expensive and doesn't add a lot against the possible opponents. Executioners will still be striking second against High Elves, and between high Weapon Skill and a 5+ ward from the cauldron, a unit of 40 Execs will still have enough attacks coming back to wreck an undead unit.

Core:

28 Dark Elf Warriors, Shields, Full Command, Standard of Discipline

30 Corsairs, Full Command, Sea Serpent Standard, 2xHandbow on Reaver

24 Crossbows, Shields, Full Command

Spears are a bunker for the Level 4 and boost her inspiring presence to Ld 10 which is a big deal. Other choices are unchanged.

Special:

40 Executioners, Full Command, Banner of Swiftness

Cold One Chariot

Cold One Chariot

No changes in this category

Rare:

War Hydra

War Hydra

Hydras wreck infantry, so a second one is a must. See how that Swordmaster unit likes it when you march up and lay down a Strength 5 template.

Other:

5 Harpies

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Wed Mar 07, 2012 5:44 pm
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Merci Grabuge pour ce jeu! :D

:shock: What a honour, to appear first after Malekith & Khaine!
Totally undeserved but hey, there are good surprises in life!

"rulebook p. 144 (French version)"
=> the pages are exactly the same in the English version so there's no need to specify.

6’ x 4’ Table
<~> 2,00 m x 1,30 m for us metric system alcoholic.

"Home game, so no crowd to point things out"
Will there be a barking dog or a toddler to mess things up (Blood Bowl style)? :lol:

As it is a home game, I assume it not to be WAACy, but still playing to be competitive.

-=-=-

MY ANSWER
(no cheating, I'll post without looking at the others - I'll cheat only later with edits).

3000 pts (never played that).
How does it compare to smaller games?

The bad:
- As the army is so wide, one-of-a-kind objects are less useful: they influence over a smaller % of the army as compared to smaller games.
General's Ld, BSB's rerolls, named characters, any magic object applicable to a single model.
- In such a large game, magic is less predominant: PD are scarce - magic-users have a range over less % of the belligerants.
- As a result, units count more on their own merits and less on buffs.
- Core remains 25% minimum. That makes many, many models.

The still good:
Still, there are some things which can grow with the army and remain as efficient as usual:
- % of characters: we can take several peggymasters, several COB, several manticores...
- out of %: more assassins, more harpies...
- large units can grow to horde units with large frontage and many ranks, and still would require to be destroyed to the last.
- MSE can grow to twice as many ever-small elite.
- warmachines can become batteries of warmachines (fear the Empire's Helstorm Rocket Battery x 4)
- up to 6 special ethereal units can be brought facing your usual one-of-a-kind mobile magic weapon answer.
- up to 4 hydra can be brought against the single flaming banner.
- magic objects applicable to very large units remain as efficient.
- same for spells applicable to units.

The nasty:
- In small games, we are willing to sacrifice a unit for redirecting/speed bumping an opponent? Our sacrificial unit becomes negligible in pts! That's better!
- Same goes for our screens. Instead of soaking up 10 arrows, they will soak up 50 for the same price.


Foe analysis:
VC (never faced them): No shooting. Little maneuvrability. Many ethereals. The general has a decisive importance.
HE (few games against them): The best tactics for us is to shoot them. The good thing is that the ubiquitous Teclis will not do everything alone. The bad thing is that they may get many dragons.

Good thing, there's no nasty warmachine, no heavily armoured tin cans.

What is required?
- Shooting against HE
- hard hitters against dragons
- magic weapons or spells against ethereals
- agile troops as screens against HE's shooting and redirectors against VC.
- large mammoth über units to win the tug-of-war game.

Friend analysis:

Available: 616 pts, less 116 pts Core which are missing, => 500 pts.
390 pts Lords
315 pts Heroes incl 0-1 BSB
500 not 775 pts Special incl 0-4 COC
500 not 575 pts Rare incl 0-3 Hydrae

Already chosen:
Characters: No combatant.
Unit boosters: 6 levels of magic + COB. That's enough magic.
No BSB. No high Ld general but not really required.
Masses: 30 Corsairs - 40 Execs = good
Rankless hitters: Hydra, 2 COC = sufficient
Shooters: 24 RXBmen = not many
Agile/sacrificial: 5 Harpies = very, very little

Expected:
Our two large units will meet foes.
Execs & corsairs should behave well against the units they'll face - unless ethereals. They won't last that long in melee against HE.
Corsairs are vulnerable against dragons but will remain steadfast => call for countercharge.
The foes are lightly armoured. The COB's KB is not really useful. Let's keep it to 1 COB only.

We don't face warmachines. No need for warmachine hunters, agile troops will mostly serve as speed bumpers/redirectors.
Actually, COC are not bad for that purpose.

Required: (besides more harpies, as usual ;))
- A third block would be a nice thing to get. It can be made from the existing RXBmen for cheap, rather than created from scrap.
- more shooting is required.
- many more agile or light troops are required in order to control the opponent's maneuvre.


Discarded alternative:
- If I were to play unimaginative WAAC, with my little tactical skill, I'd just take 3 more hydra, the DH ASF BSB for the execs, an dragonlord, more RXBmen to fill up the core and more harpies. Dark Lvl4 and Fire Lvl2.

But as I am not WAACy and I will not play the game myself, I can try to pretend to be more of a gentleman.


Investigating: Mammoths and flies.
It's a home game with an imaginative opponent. Let's enjoy that (and the beers).

Exec über mammoth.
+9 more execs = 49. ASF BSB DH. 10x5.
Supported by the COB.

Smaller mammoths.
30 corsairs. 7x4.
increased 40 RXBmen. 7x6 or 20x2. Sheltering the general.

Flies.
That's the many more small elite (MMSE):
6 units of 5 WE
6 units of 5 BG
They will be sacrificial redirectors, arrow bulwarks & speed bumpers: they are ITP, they will resist till the last.
Add some more harpies x5 for the same task at longer distance.
Oh no... :( not enough pts.
I'll take only the girlies.

Lores:
We would like to be able to make our weapons magic and to make massive murders.
Fire is not bad: #2 is nice, #5 is excellent, #4 is better than usual, #6 is great.
Metal is not very good. #2 is nice, #6 is nice too.
Shadows is great but no magic weapon. #0, #2, #3, #5, #6 seem nice.
Death seems limited.
Dark is good as usual. Especially, it is great to give our not-so-mobile general the opportunity to boost her wounds to 6.

Let's select:
Dark magic for the Lvl 4 (looking for spells #5 then #1, #6, #4)
Fire for the Lvl 2 (3 spells, looking for spells #2 then #5, #4, #6, #1).


Proposed list: Mammoths and flies.
(unfortunately, I don't have my AB and I don't recall well the pts costs => approximations). :oops:

Characters:
SS (lv4) on foot, general - 360 pts - Black Amulet, Black Dragon Egg - Dark Lore (spells 5>1>6>4>3) - Starts with RXBmen.
Sorc (lvl2) on dark Pegasus - 235 pts - Pendant of Khaeleth, Tome of Furion - Fire Lore (spells 2>5>4>6>1).
Death Hag, Cauldron of blood - 200 ptsblesses mostly the Execs
DH, BSB, ASF banner - ~ 150pts? - with Execs

Core:2 baby mammoths & 1 fly
30 Corsairs, add hwpn, fc, 2xhbows on reaver, SSS - 350 pts
35 Xbows, shields, fc- 405 pts (+ 16 shielded RXBmen), deployed 18x2 or, later, 5 wide.
5 Harpies - 55 pts

Special:1 adult mammoth and 8 flies
40 Execs, fc, Banner of Swiftness - 525 pts
COC - 100 pts
COC - 100 pts

6 units of 5 WE - 50 pts x 6 = 300

Rare:1 wasp
War Hydra - 175 pts

Total:
There was 121 pts added to RXBmen, fulfilling the core requirement,
DH for 150 pts,
330 pts of WE
with the pts left, take some WE musicians.



EDIT (that's my cheated part after reading the other inputs).
Drop the DH BSB altogether and get instead 2 units of 5 BG with muso.

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Wed Mar 07, 2012 9:12 pm
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Lord of the Dragon Caves
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Interesting idea, but I think the small units of Witch Elves dare a real liability in these 2 potential match ups. Against High Elves, they can't do any damage since High Elf ASF will be the end of them. Against Vamps, anything Ethereal will run them over. And in general, they aren't great harrassing units since they are on foot, don't fly, and can't flee. I would rather have harpies for the same cost since the harpies are easier to keep alive.

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Thu Mar 08, 2012 2:18 am
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I had the idea of combo-charging HE in the flanks.
HE won't kill all of them.

But you're right.
Harpies would make more credible flies...

-=-=-

Afterthoughts.
I did not really take care of ethereals: only magic spells and hoping that static combat resolution would make them crumble.
This part needs more thoughts.

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Thu Mar 08, 2012 5:25 am
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Well aparently here I come back from the limbos with rare lore of times back... so prepare yourself for crazy things that haven't been seen for years. But probably not really, but that doesn't matter so here goes:

Characters
SS (lv4) on foot, general 360 pts
Black Amulet, Black Dragon Egg Lore of Fire. I like the damage output of this lore and with handy buffs like flaming sword its usually handy in most situations. Spells 4 and 5 are also good against horde sized units that will likely appear in the VC army.
Death Hag, Cauldron of blood BSB, of course. It is just extremely handy to have this girl running (or walking as the case may be) around giving out re-rolls and unit buffs. 225pts
Sorc (lvl2) on dark Pegasus 235 pts
Pendant of Khaeleth, Tome of Furion Dark magic. Easy to cast and can still pack some punch, Dark Magic will soften any shooting the High Elves may take and Soul Stealer would be quite effective against hordes of zombies and skeletons with every model in the unit taking hits.

Core
30 Corsairs, add hwpn, fc,, SSS 350 pts
24 Xbows, shields, fc 284 pts
5 Harpies
28 Warriors: Full command, shields, banner of eternal flame. 226pts

A unit like this will be helpful getting rid of any ethereal units that may turn up with their flaming attacks. They would however be at a loss against Dragon Princes and so would have to keep well away from them unless they were used for static combat res. A possible option would be to bulk them up a bit more to around 40+ and run them as a horde. This would only cost an extra 150ish points.



Special
40 Execs, fc, Banner of Swiftness 525 pts
COC
COC
10 Coldone Knights: Full command, Standard of Discipline, Dawnstone on unit champion. 350pts

With the +1LD they won't be failing a stupidity test any time soon, especially if they are close to the BSB. The Dawnstone is and extra little add on that I like to use. It mostly comes in to affect once the rest of the unit has been slain, hopefully he can get away and hide behind a hill or something to prevent the opponent gaining all 350pts that the unit is worth, rerolling a 2+ armour save makes this a lot easier. Of course I would much rather get to the point where he is the only guy standing but it will happen from time to time.


Rare
War Hydra


This leaves about 15 points to go crazy with, you could go for some extra harpies with this or just throw them away, go on and make it hard for yourself and give your opponent a 15point advantage haha.

Edit:Had a few spelling mistakes, there are probably more but I'll just leave them there for your enjoyment.

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Thu Mar 08, 2012 5:30 am
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just for the record, 4x6 feet is 120x180 cm (one foot is 30,4cm) ;)

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Thu Mar 08, 2012 7:07 am
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Characters
SS (lv4) on foot, general 360 pts
Black Amulet, Black Dragon Egg, Shadow Magic
Death Hag, Cauldron of blood, BSB 225 pts
Sorc (lvl2) on dark Pegasus 235 pts
Pendant of Khaeleth, Tome of Furion, Dark Magic

Core
35 Corsairs, add hwpn, fc,, SSS 400 pts
24 Xbows, shields, fc <- gaaah!!!! 284 pts
36 Warriors, Shields and FC, Standard if Discipline 282 pts
5 Harpies 55 pts
5 Harpies 55 pts
5 Dark Riders, musician, RXB 117 pts


Special
40 Execs, fc, Banner of Swiftness 525 pts
COC 100 pts
COC 100 pts
5 Shades, extra hand weapon 85 pts

Rare
War Hydra

TOTAL: 2998

First of all i must say that this is not at all an army id prefer myself. Im much more used to handling smaller units, but two big ones were mandatory, so i tried to adapt :mrgreen:

The general will go with the spearmen in steadfast formation. She will obviously debuff the enemy all she can to help the other units out, but she has the BDE which is a great synergy in conjuration with a deep unit like the spears. When it looks like they will be charged she will use the egg to protect herself, but also to cause some unexpected havoc. I used BDE on my BSB with spearelves before to incredible effect. however i combined that with warbanner to have a huge static combat resolution as well as a good number of kills AND a deep formation to deny steadfast. any one who charges this unit could be in for a nasty surprise. Unfortunately i couldnt forgo the Ld banner for warbanner, and i dont have a BSB in the unit but i think this will work against any soft to medium opponent. She can always scram out of there if they have to face stiffer opposition. Shadow lore is not really my thing either, but since i had to include a second wizard i figured id rather go a lvl 4 shadow and a lvl 2 dark instead of the other way around.

Death hag BSB is pretty standard. Not much to say.

The flying Lvl 2 is more expensive than what i prefer, though she can be very nasty. Soulstealer any one? :D

I do not like corsairs in these sizes. i would much have preferred witches, but these ones will have to preform the same duty: kill stuff. Horde formation ofc, and with a debuff on the enemy or mindrazor... you all know the deal :)

I personally prefer RXBs in units of 10, but i guess this will have to do. they will hang back and shoot things in 12x2 formation. If i can get a flank with them ill charge in, but thats pretty risky with such a big unit.

I added harpies, DRs and shades for control. I decide who fights and when. that is very key to my playstyle.

40 executioners are nice, and the gut reaction is to give them a hag with ASF. but since we are up against high elves (possibly) that seems a bad choice this time. 40 vanilla executioners is very strong still, and with just a little magical aid (like miasma or word of pain) they wont die in droves to everything. they dont need any help on the offense. A ward save from cauldron would be neat in some fights too. If all else fails they will be stubborn near the cauldron.

I do not like chariots in general, but against HE and VC i can surely see their worth. they will work great, especially together with the warrior bus. warriors deny steadfast and the chariots provide the punch. HE flee and VC crumbles incredibly fast in those situations.

I kept the hydra alone. He is mostly an arrow magnet. barring flaming attacks you will not be able to kill him in a point efficient manner before he hits, and if you dont... you will be sorry you didnt.

I guess the possibility of mass ethereals is a weakness. i have the lvl 2 mage, but thats about it (ok, pit and pendulum will help in an emergency), but i think i can handle it.

ok, gotta run to training now. cherios

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Thu Mar 08, 2012 5:04 pm
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So, my thinking:

First up, looking at the list there are 2 things that jump out at me- with 525pts invested into Executioners, this unit absolutely has to be protected and is the focus point of the list. So, Metal is the only really sensible Lore to go with on the Level 4 even though her kit doesn't really reward it- in a choice between making her 100pts of kit worthwhile, or making the 5s5pts of Executioners worthwhile, there is only one choice. Keep them alive, and make sure there are enough bodies left over to swing back and cause some damage in combat. The other point about the Executioners is that by investing this many points into a combat unit, the army absolutely has to be going forwards and getting into combat.

With the Pendant already taken, the Pendant BSB I like in offensive lists can't be taken. So, the Cauldron goes up to the BSB.

With a mobile support mage, if you take Fire you're really not getting the best out of how fast she is. The best options are either Death of Dark, and of these 2 Death is the best option- and not just because of the armies that the list may face. With no Dispel Scroll, anti-magic is going to get hairy at times, and Death magic will go a long way towards easing those concerns. If nothing else, Spirit Leech each turn on a mage will draw out enough dice for Glittering Robes to go off.

Next up, another characters, easily one of the best DE have access to in an all-comers list, and especially if there'll be multiple war machines on the board- PegMaster with lance, Cloak of Hag Graef and Dawnstone. 190pts turns all those war machines into easy points, as well as dealing with peripheral units.

To build up the minimum core, there is only 1 real option- 20 Warriors, full command, Standard of Discipline. Derp, but it works. It's 34pts over the minimum core, which is a bit more than I would like, but it'll do.

At this point, I have 250pts left to spend. I've got enough magic and enough hard hitters, but I still lack something that can keep up with the army and still deal with peripheral units at range efficiently. So, shades it is- an 8 and a 7, to be precise, with AHWs on the 8.

So, here's the list:

Metal Level 4- BDE, Black Amulet.

Death Level 2- Tome of Furion, Peggy, Pendant

Cauldron BSB

PegMaster, Cloak of Hag Graef, Dawnstone, lance, shield, heavy armour

20 Warriors, full command, Standard of Discipline

40 Executioners, full command, Banner of Swiftness

2x Chariots

8 shades, additional hand weapons

7 shades


War Hydra

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Thu Mar 08, 2012 9:27 pm
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tmarichards wrote:
Next up, another characters, easily one of the best DE have access to in an all-comers list, and especially if there'll be multiple war machines on the board- PegMaster with lance, Cloak of Hag Graef and Dawnstone. 190pts turns all those war machines into easy points, as well as dealing with peripheral units.


I love this combo for a tournament or other all-comers list, but the lack of a magic weapon means that in this battle you have possibility that a single spirit host can hold this guy up for an entire game.

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Thu Mar 08, 2012 9:33 pm
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Very true, and it';s worth watching out for. Fortunately, as with all things it's a 2 way street- he's pretty nippy (faster than a Spirit Host), and there's a decent chance I'll be able (in this list) to get Enchanted Blades.

He does have some downsides and some things to look out for, but overall I think his positives outweigh his disadvantages.

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Thu Mar 08, 2012 10:06 pm
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True. I forgot you were proposing to go with Lore of Metal. Not my favorite option, but the possibility of Enchanted Blades does make the build more viable for this challenge.

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Thu Mar 08, 2012 10:18 pm
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Challenge accepted - I have not read any other's post just yet (to allow true individual preference/ideas) and I shall write up my thoughts and probably edit this post once I am ready.

PS. Dammit I totally missed it but 7 posts ago was my 1000th (FINALLY!) :D

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Thu Mar 08, 2012 11:09 pm
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tmarichards wrote:
Next up, another characters, easily one of the best DE have access to in an all-comers list, and especially if there'll be multiple war machines on the board- PegMaster with lance, Cloak of Hag Graef and Dawnstone. 190pts turns all those war machines into easy points, as well as dealing with peripheral units.
This is not all-around, but against HE and VC.
Dangerous Beans wrote:
Challenge accepted - I have not read any other's post just yet (to allow true individual preference/ideas) and I shall write up my thoughts and probably edit this post once I am ready.

PS. Dammit I totally missed it but 7 posts ago was my 1000th (FINALLY!) :D
Rather than editing, please post another time (so we see it among "new posts").

And yes, the first post is the most difficult to send, the following 999 are still hard, after that it becomes easier. ;)

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Fri Mar 09, 2012 1:06 am
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First things first, I'd like to congratulate you all.

This far, the depth, quality and diversity of ideas expressed by you Dnetters amaze me at the utmost point. Kudos to all!

One curious thing yet is that no one tried to bank on the Black Amulet SS to take on challenges against nasty enemy characters. Rebounded wounds can (or not, depending on the dices), take care of combat vampire lord or dragonmages and dragons lords.

Since it is a closed list game and most people never faced Black Amulet in 8th ed, It may come as a shocker. Of course, said strategy implies the SS to be in a deep ranked unit full of passive CR to make the enemy crumble or break.

Dark lore seems suited because of Soulsteal and short ranged spells needing to get close to the battleline. Though it's still is a long shot. But a 3000 pts without long shots builted in is missing something from my point of view.

@Dangerous Beans
Well I guess happy birth... mmm 1000th post !

@ tmarichards and Demetrius
Great! Thank you guys for bringing metal lore and making good point on its uses. It widens our point of view.

@ Callison
What a complete and articulated analysis you presented us, as always.

As for appearing after Malekith and Khaine, don't get to full of yourself... :P


As for myself, I'll bring in my input sometime next week. It will have both a good impact on keeping the thread alive and rolling as well as relieving my personal schedule.

One again, thanks you all for such a great showing!


By the way, I'm looking for someone who could provide banners to add to signatures of the award winners.

Said provider would be well considered for such an award!

Take care, take everything and give nothing back in return. That's the Druchii's way.

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Fri Mar 09, 2012 1:12 am
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OK so, having blindfolded myself (to avoid gazing upon my rivals plans and schemes of power, sat in room with burning candles and the incense of naggaroth and then prayed to Khaine 7 times a day - I have now come up with a plan!

So firstly what would I do to the army list?
Secondly, why have I chosen to include/change certain things?
Thirdly, what is my plan during the game/overall strategy?

So, without further ado I shall go about the ch-ch-ch-changes... (my suggested changes will be in green)

----------------------------------------------------------------
SS (lv4) on foot, general 360 pts
Black Amulet, Black Dragon Egg
Stay the same - shes an interesting lass isn't she?! The Magic Lore she will have spent several centuries learning and practising shall be none other than the ubiquitous LORE OF SHADOW.

Death Hag, Cauldron of blood 200 pts
Upgraded to become a Battle Standard Bearer = +25pts

Sorc (lvl2) on dark Pegasus 235 pts
Pendant of Khaeleth, Tome of Furion
A build that I really love to play using - I have found her to be exceptional with the LORE OF DEATH in this instance - purple sun for the win ;)

NEW CHARACTERS TOTAL: 820

30 Corsairs: 350
additional hand weapons
Sea Serpent Standard

24 Repeater Crossbowmen: 284
Shields
Full Command

5 Harpies: 55

12 Repeater Crossbowmen: 120

NEW CORE UNITS TOTAL = 754 (809 with the harpies)

43 Execs: 561
Full Command
Banner of Swiftness

Cold One Chariot (x2): 200

40 Witch Elves: 435
Standard and Musician
Banner of Eternal Flame


NEW SPECIAL UNITS TOTAL: 1196

War Hydra

NEW RARE UNITS TOTAL: 175

OVERALL ARMY TOTAL = 3000PTS
----------------------------------------------------------------

Part Two: WHY?!

This list initially appears as a very mixed bag of toys - its aiming to become a mostly combat army with some solid shooting support and the use of magic and cauldron to complement the units. First off the most simple way to shape this list and exploit it in this direction was through numbers of bodies and raw damage output. With a solid base to cover most situations: characters, large foot troops, monsters and monstrous infantry/cavalry. The magic can then be used to further keep our units alive by depleting the enemy units offensive stats (enfeebling foe, melkoth's miasma and soulblight all help here) or by simply pumping our damage output (Withering, Mindrazor etc). However our character list lacks any form of ability to deal with enemy combat characters (both Vampires and High Elves can make some fierce combos with both heroes and lords - especially at 3000pts), thus death magic was essential to snipe these enemy characters - particularly the Vampires or Level 4 High Elf Mages. Finally, both lores have access to very powerful 'deleter' template spells - pit of shades and purple sun. The flying steed aids the ability to get into range for the short ranged fate of bjuna but also (and likely more importantly if fighting vampires) Purple Sun to smash down their flanks whisking enemy units off into the ether (good bye Crypt Fiends). The level 2's leadership is also comparitively solid against enemy vampire characters so even spirit leech can have value.

So my unit choices and changes following very little in the character department (a BSB was a very neccesary purchase I felt - if only for the re-roll stubbornness on the executioners: the 18" range for it however is of GREAT significance). I decided to fill the remaining core requirements with the bare minimum (boo, hiss!) by taking a 2nd unit of Crossbowmen. I initially toyed with the idea of a very large (50 or 60 man) Warrior unit to sit the level 4 in and simply Mind Razor/Cauldron. However with the use of Corsairs, Executioners (and then Witch Elves) I felt I would have had too many choices for my targets of buffs and instead chose to leave it to those 3 large units instead - particularly as by minimising the core I could maximise elsewhere. My reasoning for the purchase of these guys was initially their solid use against the high elves: Repeater Crossbows VS Swordmasters (one of the few units that genuinely scares the 3 large blocks I've purchased) is an awesome sight as those poxy big sword wielding nut jobs get mowed down by black barbed bolts... :twisted: However against the Vampires the crossbows are less effective - their main use would be to pick off 'excess' enemy units such as single varghulfs, a small unit of flying vargeists or such other nasty horrors like corpse carts and of course if nothing else is of worth to shoot then mortis engines might even lose a wound or 2 through massed shooting of 72 shots.

I should probably explain at this point that I really considered the extra factors that were given: my opponents preference for infantry lists, his cautious playing style and generally because most vampire and high elf lists are infantry base I felt justified taking 3 large infantry units myself. Of particular note was the mass spending that I placed into one large unit of witches as opposed to several smaller ones. The reasoning here again was both sheer bodies and their use against high elves - the ASF of high elves means that they will be cutting down a very significant chunk of our infantry before we get to even strike. If the high elves had not been included as a possibility then I would have probably added an ASF banner'd Death hag to the exes. However I instead opted to buy as many bodies as possible and place them into horde formation most of the time (the cauldron will keep their stubbornness for the khaine units).

My main worry is really the use of lots of chaff with the vampire counts: ethereal spirit hosts and cairn wraith will be an issue - however like many things, a purple sun or pit of shades would clear a substantial number off as they are Initiative 2 or even 1 for the spirits! 8)

----------------------------------------------------------------
Part 3: THE BIG PLAN!

So my concept would be to take great advantage of the hidden deployment and put most of my army over towards one flank: with the 3 solid infantry blocks on the centre board side of the flank, the more shooting elements on either side of this with the Lev 4 sat in the larger crossbow unit. In fact, do ya know what? I'm going to just draw it up instead...

Image
Note: the terrain is fairly simple - try to keep the central fighting core together and in range of the CoB. This can be at the sacrifice of shooting as most of the shadow lore does not need LOS.

The Level 4 should remain fairly central (next to our largest killy unit) to draw the enemy towards this point - the corsairs and witch elves can either be used to wipe out and hold off any enemy units flanking their central Anvil or hammer unit (phoenix guard, spearmen or skeleton warriros/grave guard are good examples of what might be likely to be found in their centre), once this is done (or perhaps they can do this straight away) they can then turn to support the central fight against the toughest enemy which the executioners will be slogging it out with - they will likely have the focus of both the cauldron buff (5+ ward save will be used almost constantly unless a dire situation arises or the exectuoners aren't in threat and another unit needs a buff) AND most defensive magic support (hexes on enemy).

The harpies form a screen (in case of high elf archers and bolt throwers who'd like to ruin some witch elves) and the crossbowmen are placed in positions where they might be able to gain a good shot or 2 although this is secondary to getting the 3 solid fighting units into combat ASAP. The War Hydra/Chariots are placed on the extreme flanks of the army (not the battlefield) to provide high strength and armour piercing attacks to the otherwise strength 3 troops.

And I think that is the all the basics covered! I'll spend some time reading the rest of the thread now and try and condense my thoughts in a post later on - I might even be able to test this situation myself Grabuge if you want a hand with bat rep writing/a secondary playtest situation etc...

Great stuff! :D

Cheeky edits:
- upon having a re-read of the other chap's posts I am considering changing the 10 man crossbow unit to become warriors: I have a fear that the crossbow units will quickly have their line of sight covered off early in the game and I think that actually a warrior block could aid the survivability of the level 4 and would complement her combination. Alternatively I wonder about combining my 2nd unit into the first - this would mean less LOS to worry about, a tougher unit to hide inside and 1 less deployment drop would mean better chance of getting the first turn!

- use of the level 4: I initially was sceptical on this build but since thinking it through some more she is actually a very nice 'honeytrap' (for want of a better word!) to try and lure enemy heroes or lords into fighting her - then she munches down a black dragon egg and breathes smokey black belching poisonous clouds over them for good measure. During her following turn she can then cast enfeebling foe to stop more wounds going onto her, or leave her to suffer and die but take the enemy with her! (you'll know their item combo now before deciding to commit spells).

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Fri Mar 09, 2012 8:43 pm
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I really wished I could change something about the fixed part of the list ;)

Anyways, this is my contribution (without peeking on the others)

Characters
Supreme Sorceress
- Level 4: Shadow
- Black Amulet
- Black Dragon Egg

Death Hag
- Cauldron of blood
- Battle Standard

Sorceress (General)
- Level 2: Dark Magic
- Dark Pegasus
- Pendant of Khaeleth
- Tome of Furion

Master
- Dark Steed
- Dawnstone
- Whip of Agony
- Heavy Armor
- Shield
- Sea Dragon Cloak


Core
30 Corsairs
- Additional Handweapons
- Full Command
- Sea Serpent Standard

24 Crossbows, shields, fc 284 pts
- Full Command
- Shields

5 Dark Riders
- Musician
- Crossbows


5 Harpies
5 Harpies


Special:
40 Executioners
- Full Command
- Banner of Switfness

Cold One Chariot
Cold One Chariot

5 Shades
- Additional Handweapons


Rare:
War Hydra
War Hydra

Total: 2993

So, to explain my choices, lets start with the top:

I choose to go with shadow on the supreme sorceress as I think the list benefits the most with that lore. Also, when having the dark magic sorceress on the second sorceress, you have a chance of combining spells like Withering + Soulstealer and/or Enfeeblement + Black Horror. The shadow lore has many good debuffs which will help most of the other choices quite well. I don't like the close combat setup on her and even considered putting her with corsairs, but I'll end up having her with the crossbowmen as she is the army general, too soft for close combat and alot of VP.

BSB on the cauldron needs no more explanation :)

The dark magic lore is chosen for the same reasons as I said about combinations with shadow lore, and also because of the other spells, chillwind, bladewind and/or word of pain. As she is on the pegasus, she can get within 12 of any unit and get soulstealer through, so that spell together with withering would be brutal. I'd have her joining the crossbowmen at first, and then consider where to move out from there (Either joining the corsairs the first round or running up to do her magic tricks... important to not be in the open against screaming undeads though).

I chose the master instead of a death hag ASF because of the need of magic weapons against potential etheral lists, and in the case of a high elf opponent, the ASF death hag isn't as good anyways. If I had chosen her, she could jump into the corsairs though and make them able to hit at the same time, however as the corsairs is of a high number, they most likelt get to strike back anyways. The whip of agony is also perfect for the job when it comes to damaging vampires who has the ability to remove bonuses to strength in close combat. As he is on a steed, he got alot of movement to strike where he wants. He is together with the corsairs for another extra attack (as they stack), or until he is needed elsewhere.

I feel like the list needs more movement as well as better harassment, and they gain that by the addition of Dark Riders, Shades and extra Harpies. Especially when you have two horde units, you need to clear the way and/or be able to redirect and block on certain occasions. These additional units will help you with that, as well as having the ability to take down warmachines (Which most horde units suffers alot from usually).

Last but not least, an additional Hydra. Being cheap and a big threat, your enemy need to focus these down or suffer the consequences... which frees up your other units from some attacks at least. Having one Hydra might be a waste as most can take that down within two rounds. An additional hydra means that one of them is likely to get through and into close combat.

Weaknesses to the list: Etheral heavy list. However, the Whip of Agony is magic, and with spells like pit of shades, bladewind, chillwind, doombolt... you can take those units out quick enough.

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Tue Mar 13, 2012 3:21 pm
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Am I the only one hoping that this has not been forgotten about?

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Fri Apr 06, 2012 7:03 pm
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no -- what's happening with this?

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Sat Apr 07, 2012 3:29 pm
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Excellent, because it'll give me a chance to make my input too!

Upcoming list pending...

Took a while and some hard acceptance of some funny stuff in the list (like no choice on the magic gear nor additional items for the mages)

But working within the limitations is enjoyable in its own way, this is my solution, with tailoring out the window (slightly)



Lv4 w/ Amulet & BDE (Dark Magic) general

CoB BSB
Lv2 on DP w/ PoK & ToF (Metal)

Assassin w/ Touch of Death, Rune of Khaine, Black Lotus and AHW (goes in Executioner unit - preferable, can also go into Corsairs)

30 Corsairs w/ AHW, FC & SSS. (6x5) or (7x4+2)
24 xBows w/ Sh & FC (12x2) then (6x4 when combat starts)
30 SM w/ Sh, FC & Banner of Discipline (6x5)
5 Harpies
5 Harpies

40 Executioners w/ FC & BoS (10x4)
CoC
CoC

Hydra

8pts left


Lv4 Mage - Dark Magic breakdown
Since the Lv4 has the Amulet, it really leaves little reason to not take Dark Magic.

-Soul Stealer will constantly allow her to top up the wounds she loses from the Amulet, and will allow her to keep using it.

-Word of Pain and Chillwind spells help shut down enemy ranged (like HE Sea Guards)

-Bladewind can take out enemy Warmachines (HE Bolt Throwers) and Ethereals from VC.

-Word of Pain will also help Executioners survive better too, making whatever they're fighting drop to WS1, ergo, hitting on 5's.

Dark Magic imho, is a must, not just for this list, but for any list.

Lv2 Mage - Lore of Metal breakdown
Lv2 on DP suggests the typical Death Magic lore, but I find that stock standard setup boring.

I suggested Metal because I want to cast the Glittering Robe spell on the Executioners, turning them into 3+ AS unit of death. Coupled with CoB's 5+ Ward, and they're essentially Chaos Tzeentch Warriors.

Besides, there's also Enchanted Blades spell, which'll help Executioners hit on 3's, or even 2's, and gives AP, amazing on the Corsairs or the Executioners. S6 + AP? -4 AS? bye bye Blood Knights and Dragon Knights. But more importantly, gives them magic attacks, perfect to deal with the Ethereals from VC.

The Assassin
The Executioners can take out anything they get to swing at. Their biggest problem will be combat characters that can dish out a lot of damage before the Executioners get to swing. With 40 bodies, they'll undoubtedly get to swing back and kill their fill, but if we can mitigate the losses to win the CR, then that's better.

The Assassin is designed to kill off enemy characters before they get to hurt our Executioners. Given KB, +D3 extra attacks, AHW and rerolling 1's to wound, his job is to pop out of his unit, into B2B contact with that troublesome enemy character and out of those many attacks, KB the target. (Black Lotus cancels out the poison attack ability, so 6's to hit don't go to auto wound)

The additional units
The additional unit of Harpies is there to help further stall enemy key units to allow your all important Executioner unit to get the best charge in, or prevent a flank charge massacre.

The extra unit of SM, well, an extra support unit, but since the Lv4 has to be the general, they carry the +1 Ld banner to allow her to have Ld10 presence.

The BSB on CoB, well, every army has to have a BSB. ^^


Sun Apr 08, 2012 2:29 am
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I forgot about the wound-adding effect of Soul Stealer. It does make Dark a really good choice for a Level 4 with the Black Amulet.

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Mon Apr 09, 2012 1:16 am
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