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ETC 2400 list vs WoC (updated with battle report) 
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Noble
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Joined: Tue May 12, 2009 8:56 am
Posts: 423
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Hello there.

In a couple of days im having a game against a WoC-player under the ETC-final-restrictions.
We will both be tailoring our armies against each other. This is part of the tournament.
I know the last time he played an opponent, he brought a CC khorne focused army with a KnightBus. So i might face the same or a variation of that army, or something completely different in the WoC-army.

Looking at lists: (and this is where i would appreciate your help)
I pondering several approaches.

List1:
Dreadlord, General, Black Dragon, Whip of agony/Crimson Death, The ohter Trickster's Shard, Dawnstone, Armour of Darkness - 550 Pts.

Death Hag, BSB, Standard of Hag Graef - 150 Pts.
Master, Scourge, HA, Shield, SDC, Dark Pegasus, Pendant of Khaeleth, Dragonhelm - 191 Pts.
Sorceress, Scroll, Lore of Metal - 125 Pts.
Sorceress, The Guiding Eye, Lore of Metal - 125 Pts.

35 Crossbowmen, Shields, M, S, C - 405 Pts.
5 Dark Riders - 85 Pts.
5 Dark Riders - 85 Pts.
10 Dark Elf Warriors - 60 Pts.

33 Executioners, S, C, Std. of Murder - 445 Pts.

War Hydra - 175 Pts.

Total: 2396

The list i designed with a core defensive element: Crossbows positioned with hydra and executioners at either side supported by metal magic, to force him to engage while taking loses.
DRs as directes to angle his frenzied units hopefully for a flank charge by hydra and or mobile characters.

And the dragon + pendat master for mobile threats and Mage hunters.

If he fields a Hellcannon, the dragon hides, while pendant master ties up cannon.

One possible issue, would be against a strong lv4 tzeentch caster perhaps mobile, who could rival my ranged damage output with gateway and or treason. I will have to take him out either with metal mages or with pendant + dragon rider to assasinate him (if he is on foot).

I do not have much experience playing with either executioners or a dragon, even though im an experienced WHFB-player, as i normally play all corner lists.

I am a bit concerned that the RXBs actually dont fit the list.
Maybe i should swap them for 2x35 spears as anvils. However im thinking they might be too weak without cauldron or magic aid. (which i cannot provide)

There also the possibility that i play a much more normal list instead of the one above.

What is your thoughts?


Last edited by Scyloc on Wed Jul 04, 2012 9:17 am, edited 1 time in total.



Fri Jun 29, 2012 10:56 am
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Cold One Knight

Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 1:21 pm
Posts: 237
Location: Dublin, Ireland
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I would include some harpies in the list as they are faster and can fly over things they would be better than DR's at redirecting the bus.

Then your fliers and executioners can kill everything else.

Keep the peg guy on bus watch incase it gets loose.

The executioners should do well against chaos as he has little shooting.

I would split up the xbows this would give you more drops and you could split fire. Very useful if he has dogs and Marauder horsemen getting in the way. Also metal has few magic missiles. And you have only one way of killing dross that isn't combat.

I would change the guiding eye for the sac dagger.

If you fire 70 shot and hit on 4+ with a re-roll.
You wound on 5+
As 2+
Blasted standard save 5+.
You kill 1.94 knights.


Fri Jun 29, 2012 11:38 am
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Executioner
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Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2010 10:57 am
Posts: 1956
Location: Hell
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I think the most important thing is not to over think it. Play a list you're normally comfortable with, something that's balanced so it's ready to take on whatever your opponent plans to bring to tailor against DE. I think the fact you know what you're facing will distract and make you do worse than normal based solely on what I mentioned above. You're both tailoring against each other, but still facing the unknown. Play safe, deal with what you know is my advice. For example, you know WoC has no warmachine that'll shred multi wound targets like our Hydras and Chariots. Perhaps take advantage of that? Well except for a Hellcannon, but it's not that reliable, and frankly, it's more scary in combat than lobbing pot shots at your multi-wound targets. Another example is you know there'll likely be a warshrine, prepare something to get in fast, and kill it quickly. Things like that. But don't go guessing what style of list they'll bring and tailor like that. That's just silly.

As you mentioned, you lack experience using a Dragon and Executioners, already a bad idea. Your Dragon build isn't exactly very solid, you should think about the stubborn hat and PoK at the very least for your DL.

An idea that I'd consider would be the full monster list I've read earlier in this forum last year for 8th ed.

It consisted of;

A dragon mounted lord
2x Manticore Masters
2x Hydras
RxBs (or choice of core requirement)
and
Choice of specials if desired (I went for CoK block, but I think I'll try Chariots next time I take this list.)
And maybe a SS, which is probably a good idea when facing WoC.

It completely takes advantage of the fact you know your opponent has no cannons, just mortar like hellcannons that may or may not be accurate enough to wipe out your multi-wound targets. If it were me, I'd probably take my chances and multi charge multiple monsters into a Warrior block before it gets the #12 result in the eye of the gods chart.

_________________
What's mine is mine, What's yours is mine.
Now that we understand each other, lets get down to business.

Jacks -Shade
- WS 5 - - S 3 - - T 2 - - D 6 - - I 5 -

Equipment
Short Sword, MC Long Sword*, Dagger, RxB & RHB [20/10] MC Shade Cloak, 4 Throwing Daggers, 3x Healing Vials, 451C, [3]Dark Venom, [4]Unseen Chains, Food, Dark Steed- Spike

Skills
Basic Stealth, Awareness, TWF, Suithenlu Khythan, Ride

Magic Item
Eye of the Jabberwock

*Magical properties possibly imbued


Fri Jun 29, 2012 4:50 pm
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Executioner
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Posts: 169
Location: Alberta Where REAL beef comes from
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I have found the Dragon Rider lists to be quite entertaining to play, though not as optimal as the traditional lvl 4 shadow builds. I am curently running a DragonLord, unit of 12 CoK and 2 Hydra's in 2.5k. with a unit of harpies, shades, and Dark Riders, I find I am able to pull people out of position on a pretty regular basis for charges/counter charges.

Another possible Item combo to try would be Pendant, Black Dragon Egg, Full Mundane, and Whip of Agony/Crimson Death.

_________________
Building Hand Eye Co-ordination. . . . One kill at a time.


Sat Jun 30, 2012 6:08 am
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Noble
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Posts: 423
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
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Hello everyone.

Thx for the replies so far.

@prince Fabula:
I would normally always field 2x5 harpies. However in this list, harpies would cost either the hydra or executioners (making them non-viable) So i cant see how to field the harpies.
The lack of harpies is why i included 2x5 DR and a single 60pt warrior regiment. To make up for the lack of redirecters. The warrior regiment can also serve as a getaway unit for the sorceres, if theres too much pressure on.

You may have a good point regarding the possible lack of spells and missiles to deal with enemy fast cav/dogs. However if i split them up, i may gain an increased ability to take out chaff, but will loose my only anvil. That would require a completely different core setup with a 40 warr block along with 2x10 RXB.

It could be a good idead to take lv1metal lv1fire, and perhaps exchange the guiding eye for ruby ring to strengten ability to take out chaff. But the price would be the threat of 2x searing doom in a turn to take out knights.

@Meteor
My approach is exactly yours. Deal with what i know.
Few of no war machines -> Dragon + hydra
Heavy armored troops -> Executioners + metal mages
Warshrines -> Peg Pendant BSB

Chariots could be a solution, however i usually find them lacking vs WoC where you often expect grinding fights.

Regarding my lack of experience with exe & dragons. Im a very experienced and skilled player, and i will not bring anything to the table im not comfortable with how to play. And I am confident that I will be able to utilize the 2 mentioned units to their potential.

Regarding Dragon build. Taking a PoK + CoC Dreadlord on dragon would indeed be nice. But under the ETC comp, PoK is restricted to masters only, and CoC is pooled with Hydra, Cauldron Pendant and Crown, where you can only take 2 of the 4 mentioned.
My choice was Pendant + Hydra.

I agree wholeheartedly that Crown is normally a very solid choice for a dragon rider due to SCR being a great liability. In this list there is however no easy CR points for him unless i am doing something wrong. If he is engaged with PoK master, Hydra or Executioners they will all at least deal as many wounds back as they take. Based on that i valued the Pendant and Hydra as more valuable.

I would love some feedback on a more solid dragon build under the ETC comp though. The defensive possibilities are glittering scale + ring of darkness; 2+ with possible reroll along with 4++.
I went for 1+ reroll where i have the added advantage that if/when the dragon dies, the character on foot will not loose protection.
Any feedback on dragon builds are appreciated.

Manticore masters could be interesting to field, however i dont own any.
A lv4 would be close to mandatory and that is my biggest concern as well.

I could easily be pursuaded to bring 2xlv4 instead of the dragon with metal and shadow (even though shadow is heavily nerfed in ETC)

@Urian
Under the ETC hydras are restricted and you cannot bring more than 1.
A large unit of CoKs are also very effective but they would require a different setup with CoB and or Hydra banner to be effective.
BDE is strong item though (Pendant is a no go due to restrictions)
how would you build your dragon rider without the pendant and crown?


Sat Jun 30, 2012 1:47 pm
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Corsair

Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2011 4:07 pm
Posts: 87
Location: sweden
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I really like the dragon list! to me it seems like you have adapted both to the etc comp and the knowledge of facing warriors. I do however have some things to say abot playing a dragon, done it in a couple of tournaments.
you absolutely needs to out deploy your opponent, otherwise the fact that the dragon investment is so large compared to the point size might hinder you in several ways. mainly: it needs to be positioned where it can wreak havoc to compensate, you will in the deployment phase need to compensate for this by placing yot units tight so that they do not get picked of one by one. this may due to terrain be minored to very few choices, and so the opponent gains a huge advantage.
By having more chaff to drop you place the opponent in the reverse situation.

This of course is more or less important in most games but becouse the dragon list is all about combining the dragon with other units, (the dragon can kill a lot but due to crown and steadfast...) to break the enemy this becomes game breaking.

my only advice is therefore to split the xbows in to as many small units as is possible.

this actually has a multi purpose, deployment options+killing off chaff, the other weakness of a dragon list (except cannons) is that the dragons support hitters (coldones, exis, etc) gets redirected so that no multi charge is possible.

sorry for the rant but love the dragon lists so I try to encourage people to play it.

When i Playde it under comp my setup was: whip, preservation, dragonhelm and the orther tricksters.

i would also swap the guiding eye for ruby ring (stray warhounds)

good luck!


Sat Jun 30, 2012 7:28 pm
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Noble
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Joined: Tue May 12, 2009 8:56 am
Posts: 423
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
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Thx for the feedback.

I have made some changes to the list.

Dreadlord, General, Black Dragon, Soul Render, The ohter Trickster's Shard, Dawnstone, Armour of Darkness - 540 Pts.

Death Hag, BSB, Standard of Hag Graef - 150 Pts.
Master, Great Weapon, HA, SDC, Dark Pegasus, Pendant of Khaeleth, Dragonhelm - 187 Pts.
Sorceress, Scroll, Lore of Metal - 125 Pts.
Sorceress, Ruby ring of Ruin, Lore of Metal - 125 Pts.

15 Crossbowmen, M, C - 160 Pts.
10 Crossbowmen, M, C - 110 Pts.
10 Crossbowmen, M, C - 110 Pts.
5 Dark Riders - 85 Pts.
5 Dark Riders - 85 Pts.
10 Dark Elf Warriors - 60 Pts.
5 Harpies - 55 Pts.

32 Executioners, S, C, Std. of Murder - 433 Pts.

War Hydra - 175 Pts.

Total: 2400

Stronger vs chaff. But no anvil.


Mon Jul 02, 2012 2:36 pm
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Executioner
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Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2010 10:57 am
Posts: 1956
Location: Hell
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Don't need an anvil, just walk those ASF Execs into the heart of the enemy and wreck them. Unless they roll 12 on the Eye of the Gods.

_________________
What's mine is mine, What's yours is mine.
Now that we understand each other, lets get down to business.

Jacks -Shade
- WS 5 - - S 3 - - T 2 - - D 6 - - I 5 -

Equipment
Short Sword, MC Long Sword*, Dagger, RxB & RHB [20/10] MC Shade Cloak, 4 Throwing Daggers, 3x Healing Vials, 451C, [3]Dark Venom, [4]Unseen Chains, Food, Dark Steed- Spike

Skills
Basic Stealth, Awareness, TWF, Suithenlu Khythan, Ride

Magic Item
Eye of the Jabberwock

*Magical properties possibly imbued


Mon Jul 02, 2012 5:19 pm
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Noble
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Joined: Tue May 12, 2009 8:56 am
Posts: 423
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
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Last minute change:

Dreadlord, General, Black Dragon, Soulrender, The ohter Trickster's Shard, Dawnstone, Armour of Darkness - 540 Pts.

Master, Lance, HA, Shield, SDC, CO, BSB, Hydra banner - 214 Pts.
Sorceress, lvl2, Ruby Ring of Ruin, Scroll, Lore of Metal - 185 Pts.
Master, GW, HA, SDC, Dark Pegasus, Pendant of Khaeleth, Dragonhelm - 187 Pts.

15 Crossbowmen, M, C - 160 Pts.
10 Crossbowmen, M - 105 Pts.
10 Crossbowmen, M - 105 Pts.
5 Dark Riders - 85 Pts.
5 Dark Riders - 85 Pts.
10 Dark Elf Warriors - 60 Pts.
5 Harpies - 55 Pts.

14 CO Knights, M, S, C, Std. of Murder - 443 Pts.

War Hydra - 175 Pts.

Total: 2399

_________________
Interesting threads from the past:
BG Executioners Axe List:
Facing Ogres:
Facing WoC:
Effective use of Magic
Tips Using Harpies:


Mon Jul 02, 2012 9:54 pm
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Noble
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Joined: Tue May 12, 2009 8:56 am
Posts: 423
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
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The Druchii force:
Dreadlord, General, Black Dragon, Soulrender, The ohter Trickster's Shard, Dawnstone, Armour of Darkness - 540 Pts.
Master, Lance, HA, Shield, SDC, CO, BSB, Hydra banner - 214 Pts.
Sorceress, lvl2, Ruby Ring of Ruin, Scroll, Lore of Metal - 185 Pts.
Master, GW, HA, SDC, Dark Pegasus, Pendant of Khaeleth, Dragonhelm - 187 Pts.
15 Crossbowmen, M, C - 160 Pts.
20 Crossbowmen, M, C - 210 Pts.
5 Dark Riders - 85 Pts.
5 Dark Riders - 85 Pts.
10 Dark Elf Warriors - 60 Pts.
5 Harpies - 55 Pts.
14 CO Knights, M, S, C, Std. of Murder - 443 Pts.
War Hydra - 175 Pts.

The Warriors of chaos:
Chaos Lord, General, Mark of Tzeentch, Shield, Bloodcurdling Roar, Ogre Blade, Talisman of Preservation, Dragonhelm, Disc of Tzeentch - 365 Pts.
Exalted Hero, Mark of Tzeentch, Shield, Warrior Bane, Talisman of Endurance, The Bronze Armour of Zharakk, BSB - 200 Pts.
Chaos Sorcerer, lvl2, Lore of Death, Scroll - 145 Pts.
Chaos Sorcerer, lvl2, Lore of Fire, Sceptre of Stability - 135 Pts.
18 Chaos Warriors, Mark of Tzeentch, Halberds, M, S, C, Std. of Rage - 373 Pts.
18 Chaos Warriors, Mark of Tzeentch, Shields, M, S, C, Rapturous Standard - 358 Pts.
6 Chaos Knights, Mark of Khorne - 270 Pts.
6 Chaos Knights, Mark of Khorne - 270 Pts.
Chaos Warshrine, Mark of Slaanesh - 140 Pts.
Chaos Warshrine, Mark of Slaanesh - 140 Pts.

The game:
I won the roll of for choosing side, and promptly chose the open side and decided to deploy a (semi)-refused flank opposite a forest, which would most likely force him to split his forces on either side of the forest.

Deployment:
Image
He deployed both his knights on the left flank with a warshrine at one side of the forest, and his 2 warrior blocks with the 2nd warshrine in the middle at the other side of the forest.
His Disc general on the right flank.

I countered with my 15 Cok opposite his 2x7 knights, and made sure to keep a unit of DRs and a unit of harpies nearby ready to redirect his knights to make sure i got the charge and not the other way around.

In the middle i placed the 2 units of RXB opposite his warrior units where they could dwindle his units before battle, and a DR unit and the small warrior unit to redirect and slow him down.

The Hydra was placed between the 2 RXBs and The Dragonlord and Hero on Dark Pegasus with the Pendant of Khaeleth where placed strategically in the middle to make sure his ld could be shared with the whole army, and they could support both flanks.
The pendantPeg was angled to engage his DiscLord on the right flank if he got first turn and decided to charge on that flank.

I vanguarded the DR units to tempt both of his Khorne knights to charge at 19" range, and the center DR was vanguarded to just within max charge distance for halberd warriors to test if they had the frenzy banner.

We rolled of, and he got first turn.

Chaos turn 1:
Image
He did indeed have the frenzy banner on his Halberd warriors. Of the 3 frenzy checks, he failed with one knight unit which scrambled 4" forward.

He moved up his other knight unit on the left flank and in the center both his warrior blocks moved up with his warshrine.

His disc general made a long 20" forward to get into a flanking position of my central RXBs. (but also within charge range and arc of my PendantPeg)

DE turn 1:
Image
I promptly charged his disc lord with my PendantPeg to keep him occupied which should tie them up for many rounds in CC as neither one should be able to hurt the other character much, and with his chaos lord occupied my dragonlord would be free to wreck havoc unopposed.

I positioned my large unit of Cold One Knights opposite his knights just out of reasonable charge range, and made sure to position my DRunit so that a failed charge from me next turn (should he move forward) would only see me move forward half and inch and then stop 1" from my DRs. (not shown in diagram)

The rest of my army positioned themselves waiting for the onslaught to begin, while shooting at the approaching warrior units slowly reducing their numbers.

The dragonlord stayed in a central position ready to support where needed and giving an 18" ld bubble.
Normally i would try to position the dragon for flank or rear charges at this time, but the dragonlord had no were to land between enemy forces as they were approx 20" away and the dragonlord could not get out of sigt of his warrior units.

Again i made sure that he had to take 3 frenzy checks with 2xknights and his anvil warriors.

Chaos turn 2:
Image
He failed another frenzy check and stumbled forward with his leftmost knights, making it an easy (8+ on swiftstride) charge for me own Cold One Knights next turn.

His warriors moved forward full speed and closed the distance considerable to my RXB and hydra center.

Close Combat would soon begin.

DE turn 2:
Image
My Knights charged into his left flank knights and made the easy charge distance. My nearby unit of DRs moved up to redirect his other unit of knights and warshrine to make sure my knights would not get countercharged.

My knights easily wiped out the khorne knights in CC and reformed to face the other unit of 7 khorne knights and the warshrine.

In the center my RXBs continued to pepper his warriors with crossbowbolts and slowly reduced the size of this warriors.

The hydra threatened a warrior charge if the warriors would move closer.

On the far right flank the CC between the Master on a Dark Pegasus with Pendant of Khaeleth and the Chaoslord was not going according to plan, as i during the last 2 combat rounds had failed 2 out of 4 pendant saves, which left me with only 1 wound left.
This meant that if i failed another save on a 6 my PegMaster would die and he would get a free reform in my turn and charge in his next turn.

I kept my hydra and dragon lord close to the RXBs and 10warriors to make sure he could only charge my rightmost RXBs (which would be steadfast) or the 10man strong spearman unit (which would also be steadfast). I made sure to angle my dragonlord to charge him in the side should he decide to charge either unit.

In the close combat his lord dealt 3 or 4 wounds to the PendantPeg, and he promptly failed 2 pendant saves on 6ses again (failing 4 out of 6) and died, allowing the chaos lord a free reform ready to charge in his turn.

Chaos turn 3:
Image
On the left flank where my Cold One Knights were threatening his Chaos knights and warshrine, he decided to charge my redirecting DRs. He overwhelmingly finished them of in CC and made sure to overrun in such a way that his warshrine blocked my path to the flank of his knights. His knights bumped into the side of the warshrine seemingly safe for another turn.

The Chaos warriors in the center had the option to make 2 risky long charges on my RXB-units, but he decided not to risk it, and instead moved close full speed for easy charges next turn.

His chaos lord charged my rightmost RXBs killing the champion in a challenge, but they held on steadfast ld10 check due to the DE general nearby.

DE turn 3:
Image
On my left flank my large knight unit was facing a warshrine which was blocking my path to the flank of his last unit of knights.

I decided to do a slightly risky maneuvre as i charged the front of his knights with my nearby harpy unit and my own knights into his warshrine. This meant that if i resolved the warshrine combat first and destroyed or broke it, i would overrun into the flank of his knighs and due to the harpy charge fight another round of combat against the khorne knights.

In the center my central DRs moved forward to angle and redirect his frenzy halberd warrios at an 80-degree angle which would make then miss my 20 man strong RXB-unit in front of them and expose them to a Hydra Flank charge next turn.

My 10 spearelves moved up very close to his other warrior unit angled in such a way, that should he choose to overrun he would continue right between my 2 central RXB units.

My dragonlord engaged his chaos lord in combat with my 14 RXB-elves and i challenged with my dreadlord to make sure he would get no easy kills on the crossbowmen.

My large Knight unit broke the warshrine caught it and overran into the flank of his knights. But then they fluffed their attacks which left 4 khorne knights who passed their breaktest (by only minus1 as they killed on the 5 harpies) and reformed to face my knights.

In the center my 20 RXBs continued to rack up casualties from his frenzy halberd warriors.

His lord only gave my dragon a single wound (lucky for me, he should have put approx 3 wounds on me) and i dealt 0 wounds to him fluffing both my dragon and dreadlord attacks. I still won on static combat res as i had a flank charge, a charge, a rank from RXBs. He failed his breaktest (on a 7) and was run down by my pursuing dragonlord. The RXBs also decided to pursue as well to get out of the approaching chaos warrior units line of sight.

All in all, this was pretty lucky for me. His Chaos lord could easily have taken several wounds from my dragon, and even killed it in a couple of rounds. Eventually i should destroy him. But nice to have it happen so fast.
But the matchup of his Chaos lord vs my dragonlord was not a matchup i would have taken if not under the dire circumstances with my Pendant master failing to tie the chaos lord up as he should have for several rounds.

Chaos turn 4:
Image
At this time, things were looking grim for the Chaos general.

His left flank of 2x7 knights and a warshrine had crumbled and he was soon facing a large Cold One Knight unit in his flank. In the meanwhile his frenzy halberd warriors across from my 20 RXBs had to charge my redirecting DRs and overran to allow my hydra and CoK a flank charge on him next turn.

His central warshrine made a long charge into my 20 RXBs and managed to deal only a single wound on my lv2 sorceress. His anvil warriors killed my blocking 10 spearmen and reformed to flank charge my 20RXBs held up by his warshrine next turn.
I stupidly forget to reform my 20RXBs into 5x4 and stay on 10x2. The reform would have given me higher static combat rez, forcing him to make an even shakier break test on his warshrine next turn.

Magic has so far been relatively uneventful. During the last magic phases he has dealt a couple of wounds to the hydra using his signature fireball spell.

In CC my knights wiped out the last 3 knights due to 3 rolls of 2s turning op on his 7 or so armour saves. I reformed them to face the chaos warriors whose fate looked grim facing a dual flank charge by knights and a Hydra in the next DE turn.

DE turn 4:
Image
The Hydra and CoK tag teamed his Frenzy Halberd warriors in each flank.

My dragon turns to face the 2 Warrior units ready to engage while he breathes on the entire now 14 man strong chaos warrior unit, but only manages to kill the a champion who failed his look out sir.

The Hydra and CO knights kill all but 1 of his Halberd warriors who flee for the board edge only able to rally on insane courage. They reform to face the central combat between the soon to be combat between my 20 RXBs a warshrine and his anvil warriors.

His warshrine kills the DE sorcerer but looses on static combat res, but passes the easy break test.

Chaos turn 5:
Image
His anvil warriors charge my 20 RXBs (I stupidly forgot he had to take a ld-3 test to charge due to casualty infliched by the dragons breath). So in he went.

In the combat he kills most of the RXB-elves and they break and are destroyed. He reforms to face the incomming charges.

In his magic phase he cleverly Steed of shadows his Lv2 FireMage out of the soon to be dead chaos warrior unit and positions himself behind my Hydra, (represented by the DiscLord on the diagram) but fails to take the last wound of the hydra with his fireball.

DE turn 5:
Image
My Cold One Knight charge his blocking warshrine, and my Hydra and last unit of RXBs charge into each flank of the anvil warriors and my Dragonlord into the front.

The combat was a massacre and he was killed to the last man, exactly. We checked with his rapturous standard he would have rolled 4,4 and held with only his banner had i made 1 less kill.

Chaos turn 6:
Image
He manged to take the last wound of my Hydra with a fireball from his last remaining model, his lv2 fire mage.

DE turn 6:
Image
But couldnt escape my Dragonlord who charged and killed him.

The End Result:
The DE destroyed 2650 Pts. of chaos warriors with all bonuses.
The Chaos Warriors killed 1042 Pts. Dark Elves

With a difference of 1608 it was a decisive win for the dark elves.

under the ETC-rules (which the tournament uses) that made a 20 to 0 win for the dark elves.

I would like to thank my opponent for a very enjoying match played in high spirits and with a good atmosphere.


Last edited by Scyloc on Wed Jul 04, 2012 6:48 pm, edited 6 times in total.



Tue Jul 03, 2012 8:25 pm
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Noble
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Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2011 7:28 pm
Posts: 497
Location: The Black Ark Nemesis
Wow! Awesome battle and write up.

I really liked your list and the way you went about playing it. True Dark Elf style, and its always great to see a Dragonlord :D

It would have been interesting to see how the Hag Exec list would have performed...probably pretty well given the generalship you showed here 8)

I like how you took on board Prince Fabulas' advice with the MSU style RXB as well. Having those multiple targets really helped you win the game.

Tournament 20-0 victory under ETC rules - well done, you are a credit to the Witch King! :D

_________________
"All who surrender will be enslaved; whoever does not surrender but opposes with struggle and dissension, shall be annihilated."


Tue Jul 03, 2012 9:22 pm
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Noble
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Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
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Thx for the feedback.
I am glad you enjoyed it Tyrannus.

My thoughts on the list after playing the game:

On splitting the RXBs
I agree that splitting the RXBs into more units was the right thing to do. The guiding Eye is a gimicky item forcing you into a gimicky build, and i have never really managed to actually play a game with it.

The large block could have been interesting to try, but would have made a solid target in the middle of my lines for him to charge and get a lot of points of.
When splitting the units, he had difficulties taking large chunks of points from me. And that was a really good thing in this game.

So my conclusion is that when facing a few number of large units, its better to split your RXBs into smaller chunks as it will take longer for him to get their points worth. This may not hold true when facing an different army equipped to handle MSU. You need to have a solution for panic checks though. That was one of the main reasons why the DL was kept in the center in the start/middle of the game.

On choosing CoK over Execs
This was a really difficult choice.
The 2 units would deal comparable str6 AP damage.

Executioners
One of the Exectioners main selling points for me, was that they would deal a lot of damage regardless of getting a charge or not. Thus being superior in a defense scenario, where i could use them as a wall to stop his advance. They also have KB which would be a huge boon in a matchup vs a Character heavy chaos knight bus. The KB execs would make it a very difficult choice for him to engange and or move forward, making such a matchup very favorable for me.

However they only have I5 which is similar to his Chaos Knights and Warriors. This meant that i would be taking huge casualties while massacring one of his key units. And i could not depend on my Execs taking out more than 1 of the opposing key units or perhaps 2 depleted ones.

In order for the Execs to shine in a match vs Chaos, i feel that i need to support them with either a Cauldron (for the 5++ ward) or magic to make them more durable. I could not include a CoB due to lack of Hero allowance, and i did not have the magic to support them.

Cold One Knights
The Knights main selling point for me, was their mobility and that i would be able to switch gears in the middle of the match going from defense (the first couple of turns) to offense (with the dragonlord and PegasusHero).

Vs str4 attacks they would also be more resilient than the executioners, vs str5 approximately equally durable and more vulnerable vs str6+ (usually only found on characters.) I know i had the tools (Dragonlord + Peg hero) to focus on his characters and take them out of the equation.

The knights have I6 making them strike first against his elite Chaos Knights and Warriors (barring magic interference) and that was a HUGE selling point for me.
This meant that the knights could charge a WoC unit and expect to deal a lot of damage before being hit back. Against an elite force with few bodies, that could potentially meant that i would wipe out or cripple the enemy unit before they even got to attack. Making the CoKs much more durable (if i made sure i got the charge).

With the Cold One Knights I could destroy or cripple multiple enemy units without much loss to my own units IF i made sure to get the charge and not let my enemy countercharge me. Thats why you see me move 3 redicting units up close to the CoKs to support them and make sure they get their charges.

Deciding factor
In the end the I6 vs I5 made all the difference to me, and i would make the same choice any day vs I5 armies.

However i do believe that against a character heavy WoC-bus the Execs would have been superior. But in all other matchups i would favor the CoKs. Against a character bus, i would still have lots of solid opportunities to win with the CoKs.

Magic setup and handling enemy redirectors
Having contemplated a dual lv1/2 setup, and settling for a single lv2 with Scroll and ring of fury was a fair tradeoff i think.
My opponent fielded 2xlv2 vs my single lv2 and we both got approximately the same out of our magic phases.

With my spell selection i decided to go for searing doom and gehennas golden hounds giving me 2 excellent nukes vs armor. In hindsight i should have chosen final transmutation for a much bigger threat.

I had a discussion with one of the best players here in denmark regarding magic setup, and he let me know that after many many tests he has found that for most purposes a single lv2 (fire) with ruby ring of fury gives the same options as 2lv2, but for a much lower price. And after this match i have to agree with him.
a 2xlv2 setup is only necessary if you have to get a specific spell (for instance pit of shades).

The ruby ring was included to take out enemy redirecters, but since he did not field any, it never really saw any use. But given the discussion above and the choice of knights over execs it was extremely important that i was able to take care of any redirecters he might bring. So in hindsight i would probably switch the lore from metal to fire should i play the match again. Hmm i not sure. Its a toss up.


Wed Jul 04, 2012 10:15 am
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Cold One Knight

Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 1:21 pm
Posts: 237
Location: Dublin, Ireland
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Nice play you exploited his many frenzied units really well.

Your Peg/Pendant master was unlucky to die and this could have been a turning point but you had plenty in the tank.

Enjoyed the write up also thanks.


Wed Jul 04, 2012 3:49 pm
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Noble
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Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2009 5:38 pm
Posts: 481
Location: Druchii team Europe
Post 
GOod play.,

I also am always in dubio between executioners and knights.,

Though, you were lucky in that he didnt field one or two hellcanons., who are terrible in combat and can even kill some stuff with his shooting.., though I rather have him shoot , since he cant move and shoot


Wed Jul 04, 2012 6:42 pm
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