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BG Executioners Axe list. Updated with 4 BRs 04/09 
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Noble
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Joined: Tue May 12, 2009 8:56 am
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Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Edit: BG list and BRs appear from post #9 and down.

Hello Everyone.

Im attending a tournament this weekend, and have contemplated several lists.

The tournament is heavily comped (but also aim for a lower power level than for instance the ETC)
The most important comps are:
* 2200 Pts
* No more than 1 warmachine of each type (Bolt Throwers excluded)
* max 1 rare or 2 specials
* PoK and Crown banned
* 100pt discount on many monsters (manticore among them)
* Max 5 dice casting (incl DE) NO magic level added
* DE must choose 1 of BSB, CoB or Hydra
* Max 9 cavalry per unit, max 40 cheap models otherwise max 20 per unit.

This leads to a metagame where:
* Many low level caster with ruby ring. Few will choose high casting lores like shadow or metal. Many magic missiles expected.
MR on key units will be important. Due to many MM shades are much less interesting. Only Max 8 allowed anyway.
* Magic much less dominant as most spells will require 4+ dice to cast succesfully. This leads to fewer spells will be present and less will be cast.
Feedback scroll might be interesting, as might crystal of midnigt against the many lv1 fire mages expected.
* Many monster and other large targets present due to 100 pt discount and only 1 cannon per army.
Rending star assasin interesting, WEs (frenzy an issue though)?
* Due to low unit sizes allowed, it would not be unexpected to face deathstar comprimising of many characters (similar to ETC 2012)

Initial Testing:
I have done some testing where i experimented with a 20 ASF BG Deathstar with 2 rending star assasins, a MR3 Master, and a DL with Executioners Axe backed up by harpies and 2 large spearmen blocks.
It worked as intended, but all in all i feel that good players will simply stand off the relatively slow moving deathstar and I will either loose small or draw. This means that i will not get the big wins needed to finish in the top.
So im back to the drawing board.

Lessons Learned:
* Lack of BSB Ld rerolls is really tough.
* I was impressed with the rending star assasins. They really performed very well in a close combat list where you often operate inside their 12" range. They provided a really good solution to characters and for instance mournfangs. Their stand and shoot often intimidates the opponent to making bad decisions. Synergizes well with CoB for stubborn spearmen.
* I also found magic to be very underwhelming. You mistcast a lot due to casting with 3+ dice on practically every spell. And normally spellcaster only got off a couple of magic missiles that did not really do much. Therefore i decided to abanded magic alltogether!

After a lot of contemplating i have come up with the following lists a defensive and an offensive version:

The defensive list:
* Dreadlord, General, on Manticore, HA, Shield, Whip of agony, Ironcurse Icon, Talisman of Preservation, Cloak of Hag Graef - 349 Pts.
* Master, Lance, HA, SDC, Dark Pegasus, Black Dragon Egg, Pidgeon Plucker Pendant, Charmed Shield - 182 Pts.
* Master, Shield, SDC, Dark Pegasus, Biting Blade, Dragonbane Gem, Armour of Eternal Servitude - 181 Pts.
* Master, HA, Shield, SDC, Dark Pegasus, Sword of Might, Opal Amulet, Dragonhelm - 180 Pts.
* 20 Crossbowmen, Shields, M, C - 230 Pts.
* 14 Crossbowmen, M - 145 Pts.
* 38 Dark Elf Warriors, M, S, C, Gleaming Pennant - 248 Pts.
* 5 Harpies - 55 Pts.
* 5 Harpies - 55 Pts.
* Cold One Chariot - 100 Pts.
* Cold One Chariot - 100 Pts.
* War Hydra - 175 Pts.
* 2 Reaper Bolt Throwers - 200 Pts.

A shooting heavy list designed to sit back and grab points from the opponent at range and taunt to attempt a charge. The flying heroes and hydra will hide defensively and cover his lanes of approach, and when the time is right deliver an overwhelming charge with the chariots and or hydra to devastate one of his key units. Stupidity is an issue with no BSB, as is panic.
It is designed with the Russian Dragonlist from the ETC in mind (the Dragon is changed to a manticore in my list)


The offensive version:
* Dreadlord, General, Manticore, HA, Shield, Whip of agony, Ironcurse Icon, Talisman of Preservation, Cloak of Hag Graef - 349 Pts.
* Master, HA, SDC, Dark Pegasus, Sword of Might, Black Dragon Egg, Charmed Shield - 188 Pts.
* Master, Lance, Shield, SDC, Dark Pegasus, Dragonbane Gem, Armour of Eternal Servitude - 180 Pts.
* Assassin, Rending Stars, Manbane - 145 Pts.
* Assassin, Rending Stars, Manbane - 145 Pts.
* 5 Dark Riders, M - 92 Pts.
* 39 Dark Elf Warriors, M, S, C, Gleaming Pennant - 254 Pts.
* 38 Dark Elf Warriors, M, S, C, Std. of Eternal Flame - 253 Pts.
* 5 Harpies - 55 Pts.
* 5 Harpies - 55 Pts.
* 20 Black Guards, M, S, Std. of Murder - 306 Pts.
* War Hydra - 175 Pts.
Total: 2197
Well a list designed with a simple plan. Get charges by turn2. Move to combat asap. Simple but effective.

Im not totally satisfied with the offensive version.
Right now i like the defensive version as it imo is better designed.
But my gut feeling tells me an offensive version might be better suited for my vulnerable Manticore DL & Hydra.

My questions to you:
How do I improve the offensive list?

Which one is better in the meta?


Last edited by Scyloc on Tue Sep 04, 2012 2:35 pm, edited 3 times in total.



Thu Aug 30, 2012 8:38 pm
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Noble
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Both lists appear solid to me, and with both lists you still have the potential to pick your own fights at your pace so I'd say it's a matter of personal choice the lack of shooting on the second list to soften up targets will be encompensated by the static CR of the blocks so no problem.

In my opinion there's not much room for improvement in the offensive list you could flip Assassin with Chariot wich is better vs rank and file troops but chariots suffer from cannons and you can loose them easily in a single round of shooting.

With the second list I think you've got higher chanse of getting massacre vs the opponent.

_________________
'And lo, he shall rule with a dark hand and his shadow shall touch uppon every land.'

Single combat I await
My shadow brings them fear
The spikes upon my chariot
Will grind them when they're near...


Sat Sep 01, 2012 4:48 pm
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Joined: Sat Jul 24, 2010 8:56 pm
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I would go another route if there's no restrictions on shooting:

* S. Sorceress Lv4 (Dark) - Sac Dagger, Seal of Ghrond, Lifetaker - 345 Pts.
* Master, HA, SDC, Shld, Dark Pegasus, Sword of Might, Dawnstone, Dragonhelm - 190 Pts.
* Master, Lance, Shield, SDC, Dark Pegasus, Dragonbane Gem, Armour of Eternal Servitude, Potion of Foolhardiness - 185 Pts.

* 18 Dark Elf Warriors, M, S, C, Gleaming Pennant - 128 Pts.
* 12 Crossbowmen, Shld, M - 137 Pts.
* 12 Crossbowmen, Shld, M - 137 Pts.
* 12 Crossbowmen, Shld, M - 137 Pts.
* 10 Crossbowmen, Shld, M - 115 Pts.
* 5 Harpies - 55 Pts.
* 5 Harpies - 55 Pts.
* 10 SHades addHW - 170 Pts.
* 10 SHades addHW - 170 Pts.
* Reaper Bolt Throwers - 100 Pts.
* Reaper Bolt Throwers - 100 Pts.
* War Hydra - 175 Pts.

Just because you don't get any + for lvl casting magic doesn't mean it's bad. It's actually pretty good for us since we got a decent list with low casting values! With sac dagger and power of darkness you will see yourself casting 4 spells mosts of turns.

Much shooting still kills stuff. If it wasn't for the reduced cost on monsters I would go more RPX instead of bolt throwers.

Since with this list you will have gleaming pendant on the mage bunker, hopefully one will be allright without bsb.


(Imho black guards, cold one knights, witch elves and executioners are too bad choices for DE in 8th. I do my CC with warriors/chariots/hydra/pegasus-guys + cob blessings + magic support (usually shadow). )


Sat Sep 01, 2012 5:52 pm
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Noble
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I like both lists.

I'm leaning towards the defensive list as it looks the most well rounded and fits my own playstyle better...

But...I dont know the meta of this particular comp. The other list may work very well, however I think its not offensive enough, if anything, lacking enough high S attacks and AS modifiers. There will be monsters and unless they run straight into the flaming rending stars you might struggle to contain them all.

I'd be tempted to do a variety of things to the list such as: COK or COC (COK in particular can support frontline flyers faster than BG, also hit harder), another Manticore if it can be fitted, more killy weapons on the characters (Kaledor's Bane? POS? Ogre/Giant blade?). Alternatively, Ring of Hotek on a peg master might be useful if you expect low level mages. Other tricksters shard could be beneficial too if you expect opponents to do as you have done and skip mages for monster riding characters.

You are a much more experienced general than I am, so you will have a better idea of what works and doesn't - just thought I'd offer some feedback as you said you are looking for it.

All the best with the tourney and would appreciate Battle Reports :D

_________________
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Sat Sep 01, 2012 6:27 pm
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Noble
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Thank you very much for the feedback everyone.

Much appreciated. And you all give good points.

A full blown shooting list not much different from the one you posted was actually my first thought as well. And i definately think it is a solid choice. Only one unit of 8 shades allowed though, but that doesnt change much.
But my concern was that an army like that have trouble working without the synergy with shadow/death magic.
I brought a shooting heavy list last year. And found myself overwhelmed in a particular game against a monster heavy O&G army.

_________________
Interesting threads from the past:
BG Executioners Axe List:
Facing Ogres:
Facing WoC:
Effective use of Magic
Tips Using Harpies:


Sat Sep 01, 2012 9:48 pm
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Noble
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Scyloc wrote:
Thank you very much for the feedback everyone.

Much appreciated. And you all give good points.

A full blown shooting list not much different from the one you posted was actually my first thought as well. And i definately think it is a solid choice. Only one unit of 8 shades allowed though, but that doesnt change much.
But my concern was that an army like that have trouble working without the synergy with shadow/death magic.
I brought a shooting heavy list last year. And found myself overwhelmed in a particular game against a monster heavy O&G army.

I would strongly vouch against a full shooting/magic list at least with DE every single DE player that I know me included have strugled to perform perfectly with any such kind of lists in competitive tournaments top 10 is a biatch.

Now my experience comes from 6th/7th mostly and have recently returned. Yes you will be able to massacre your opponent if he's running on t3 infantry blocks with soft support/hunters or if he's a newb that can't support his units well but not all armies/players are like that and on a competitive tournament there are far more dangerous heavy shooting/magic armies so why would anyone even bother playing DE like that since you'd be underperforming skaven/Dwarves/Empire/Lizards come to mind I still have bad memories from Skaven/Dwarf shooting/magic armies even up to today.

You'll massacre some(infantry focused Vamps/Tomb Kings come to mind, cause cavalry vamps are a totaly different story and they can just /lol at our shooting) but you will get massacred by many Chaos Demons/Bretonians come to mind and of course ye good old big 4 that I mentioned earlier OP crap of skaven/Liz/Emp/Dwarf ect ect so don't go there mate avoid DE heavy shooting/magic list like the pleague.

After many bitter lossed on the past with mine lists of shooting/magic + redirect support units ect I came to the realisation that close combat is what realy wins our battles. Especially with the DE we got hatred and we got it for a reason. Our units have high initiative, decent WS and our elite/rare have decent S as well so how do we maximise that if not melee? Yes s3 ap rxb is nice but S5 hydra/S6 Knights/ExE multiattack BG on S4 with stuborn... there is a need of minimaxing and the rxb is a support weapon not a nuke, our magic can nuke now with the unlimited dice but many tournaments have nerfed it and of course magic is less forgiving now a miscast can cost you your battle way easily than it was in 6th for example.

The ballance of our troops from what I have seen this far bends on the favour of melee side with some firepower of rxb support against squishy enemy support or t3/light equiped horde armies and some buffs/debuffs from sorc here and there.

Everyone is entiteled to their own oppinion of course and I am just expressing mine here after all that's the reason why we are discussing firstplace.

So to sum up...go 2nd list, DE are a mobility army with nice synergy on their melee troops and decent support, pick your 2-3 key targets and eliminate them by turn 2-3 I honestly believe you can do that with your 2nd list. On the 1st list you'll be able to be even pickier on your targets and more mobile but don't count on many massacres with it and in the end that's what brings the big guys in the top places.

_________________
'And lo, he shall rule with a dark hand and his shadow shall touch uppon every land.'

Single combat I await
My shadow brings them fear
The spikes upon my chariot
Will grind them when they're near...


Sat Sep 01, 2012 10:19 pm
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kristo: I am actually surprised that you haven't seen success with DE-shooty/magic lists. In my last four tournys with such lists I have gotten best general in 2, 2nd in one and something like 3rd/4th in the last one.

(And I played skaven, empire and dwarven lists in those tours. Skaven is the toughest imo with their storm banner but if your pegasus chars / magic can deal with abbo + doomwheel you will be fine.)

Scyloc is of course right that shadow magic works best for such a list. Withering especially is so good!

There's a reason why repeater crossbows are capped in ETC. With an army with only imba pegasuschars + hydra(s) + good magic you don't need more in CC...


Sat Sep 01, 2012 11:05 pm
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Noble
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MarkusSWE wrote:
kristo: I am actually surprised that you haven't seen success with DE-shooty/magic lists. In my last four tournys with such lists I have gotten best general in 2, 2nd in one and something like 3rd/4th in the last one.

(And I played skaven, empire and dwarven lists in those tours. Skaven is the toughest imo with their storm banner but if your pegasus chars / magic can deal with abbo + doomwheel you will be fine.)

Scyloc is of course right that shadow magic works best for such a list. Withering especially is so good!

There's a reason why repeater crossbows are capped in ETC. With an army with only imba pegasuschars + hydra(s) + good magic you don't need more in CC...


No you get me wrong I dind't say these lists are not successful , I say that full shooting/magic DE lists are situational you can win big but also lose big and our units cost quite a lot in comparison to other armies.

There are mostly two way you can win by focus firing and wiping out units from range with magic/shooting or you can win by focus charging units in melee all I'm saying is that the 1st approach is a risky approach if being done with DE while melee tactical fights are a less risky way to win fights. We got a rerollable ld10 if Gen&BSB near, rerollable melee attacks due to hatred or BG high WS wich makes up a bit as deffense for out crap toughness in melee. All these taken under consideration from my point of view I realised that melee It's way safer for us it sounds paradoxial since we got elves t3 squishy but we also got all those goodies that I mentioned earlier we got more tools that boost our melee rather than our shooting.

The enemy can't "dispel" and we can't miscast on a well developed battle plan/combined charge(yes low dice roll on charge might happen but that's why players use dast support units harpies/shades in the frontline to redirect and get the enemy on a position that's easily charged on next turn even with crap roll), when you outflank him and outnumber him even though crap dice roll might happen chanses are on a well combined melee approach no matter how lucky the enemy is or unlucky you are if your battleplan is better you defeat massacre him.

Chanses to miscast while tryig to nuke are way higher than chanses to roll low on a charge and at least as I said who will charge and were and how far can be controlled to an extent with support units and shades/harpies cost makes them decent for that pourpose.

In the end however it depends on player psycology and playstyle, my most succesful lists have always been melee with shooting/magic as support and since that day I personaly never looked back to heavy magic/shooting lists it doesn't have to be like that for all of us but it was for me.

_________________
'And lo, he shall rule with a dark hand and his shadow shall touch uppon every land.'

Single combat I await
My shadow brings them fear
The spikes upon my chariot
Will grind them when they're near...


Sat Sep 01, 2012 11:36 pm
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Noble
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On shooting/magic heavy lists:
They can indeed work very well.
But usually rely on a strong shadow caster, who needs to get of withering and later in the game mindrazor at key moments to win the game big.
An army like that have som horrible matchups, but can generally be played very defensively, meaning that even if you face a horrible matchup, you can often win small or loose small.
(Unless you play a very strong opponent, who knows he has to play ├╝ber aggressive to get to your points.)
But in the end i think it is a matter of mindset.
I prefor played a more CC-oriented army as well, but CC is higher risk. If you fluff your attacks and/or fail that 10RR Ld test. You suddenly lost the game.
If you fluff your 40 shooting attacks. Well you just didnt do enough damage. You didnt loose your entire unit.

The tournament:
Unfortunaly i had RL intervene, so i did not have time to get the chariots finished. So i had to default to my tested list:
Dreadlord, HA, Shield, Dark Pegasus, Whip of agony, Talisman of Preservation, Cloak of Hag Graef - 294 Pts.
Dreadlord, General, SDC, Executioner's Axe, Luckstone, Blood Armour - 246 Pts.
Death Hag, Cauldron of Blood - 200 Pts.
Master, GW, HA, SDC, 3 x Null Talisman - 137 Pts.
Assassin, 2xHw, Rending Stars, Hand of Khaine, Manbane - 166 Pts.
Assassin, 2xHw, Rending Stars, Hand of Khaine, Manbane - 166 Pts.
35 Dark Elf Warriors, M, S, C, Gleaming Pennant - 230 Pts.
35 Dark Elf Warriors, M, S, C, Std. of Eternal Flame - 235 Pts.
5 Dark Riders - 85 Pts.
5 Harpies - 55 Pts.
5 Harpies - 55 Pts.
20 Black Guards, M, S, C, Standard of Hag Graef - 330 Pts.
Total: 2199
A deathstar list tooled to handle monster and especially the numerous ogre armies expected.

As it turned out, i played against, skaven, Orcs & Goblins and finally High Elves.

I will give a short description of the battles below.

Game 1 Skaven
(Unfortunately my opponent was 45min late, so we did not have much time for the game.)
He brought a std skaven list
2x40 slaves
40 Stormvermin with Bell, grey seer, 2 lv1 engineers and BSB
20 Plague Monks w Plague banner
A-Bomb
Doomwheel
Lightning Cannon + Plague Mortar
2x6 Gutter Runners.

The majority of his points was placed in his Stormvermin which were unbreakable due to the Bell. So knowing from the start that time would be an issue. I would have to be very lucky to get a big win as i wouldnt have the time to grind down his entire unit.
I matched up my warriors against his slaves on both flanks, and in the middle our Deathstars faced each other with his A-bomb and Monks assisting.
Doomwheel was placed on a flank.

Warriors and slaves did battle and of course the DE prevailed.
In the middle he played defensively with his Stormvermin and A-Bomb while i pressed forward. I managed to take out his Cannon early with harpies. And hos Plague Monks with my BG.
The one warrior block was used to bait his A-bomb, which worked as he destroyed them with his A-Bomb and Doomwheel.
This game me the opportunity to charge and remove A-Bomb and Doomwheel with my Deathstar.
The game ended here in turn4.
If we have more time. He would have been in a lot of trouble! The BG with characters would easily have won against his Stormvermin netting a big win.
Alas it was a 12-8 win to me.
In hindsigt i should have pressed directly for his Stormvermin. The Exe Axe DL would easily have destroyed the Bell and i might even have won on the first turn denying his steadfast. The unit was not as solid as it appared at first.

Game 2 O&G
25 Savage orcs 5+ ward from orc shaman
40 orcs with killy Black Orc Lord
3x1 Goblin chariots
3 Bolt Throwers
8 Trolls
Big Spider
60 night goblins with bows, spider banner BSB

Not my best game.
As usually i deployed with my BG (and characters) in the middle flanked by the 2 warrior blocks.
He went for a big flanking maneuvre with 2 chariots and the spider. Which i delayed for most of the game with DRs and 1 unit of harpies. In the end he managed to get to the cauldron and destroy them. Reasonable trade for me.

In the middle my left spearblock faced 25 savage orcs, my BG faced 8 trolls and his 40 orcs+general and my right spearblock faced his 60 night goblins and a chariot.

Slowly retreated backwards which ment that he had to go through a choke point in the map and his trolls blocked his big orc unit and goblins. Meanwhile my assasins in the flaming banner spearunit throw flaming manbane rending stars at his ogres doing 4 wounds per turn.

Turns 3 and 4 he IFed nightshourd (which meant that if i charged his units i would have to take a dangerous terrain test with the entire unit. (This led me to stay back. In hindsigt i should have charged with BG and not stayed back. I would only have lost a couple of models)

I redirected his savage orcs and made sure they gave their flank to a spearblock, which promply charged and wiped out the unit. How i love playing against frenzy units.

And in the later turns i charged ahead with my BG killed his trolls 60 goblins and broke his 40 orcs who unfortunately ran too far away and rallied on turn 6.

All in all a 16-4 win to me.

(I played much too defensively in turns 3 & 4 due to the nightshroud spell. That was a big mistake. Should have charged, which would have given me a bigger win.)

Game 3 HEs
14 archers
10 archers
30 spearmen
lv2 high mage
2 eagles
8 silver helms
5 dragon princes
14 swordmasters
20 white lions
Prince on barded steed S7 2+RR save and 4++ (silver helms unit)
BSB on barded steed. 1+ save (silver helms unit)

I spread out my characters in this game.
My left spearblock faced off against his spears and archers and swordmasters.
My middle BG faced of against his silverhelms and white lions.
And my right spearblock faced of against his 5 dragon princes.
Turn1 was mine and i moved my 2 assains to my right spearblock where they could shoot at his dragon princes and also silver helms in the next turns.
My DL on Pegasus went on a flanking maneuvre with the DRs threatening his archers + mage.
He was very spooked by this and turned his archers to face me, but did neglible damage. The next couple of rounds the DRs continued to harass his archers forcing him to move around his mage from unit to unit and generally annoying him.
The DL moved into the middle of his army and got off a flank charge on his silver helms (He had moved out his 2 characters to his White Lions. The great thing about this charge, was that unless i rolled very well or poorly i would break him on his turn. Sure enough that was what happened, and my DL proceeded to help out in the ensuing Big fight with my BG and characters (+ the assasins) against his WL and 2 characters. My Peg DL lost in the challange, but his WLs were wiped out. My spearmen took care of his dragon princes.

In the left flank i placed my spearmen defensively in difficult terrain tempting him to charge with his swordmasters. He did.
It was obvious that i would take many casualties. But i expected me spears to grind the only 10 Swordmasters. However he rolled really well on his saves, and i fluffed my rolls in the ensuing 4 combat rounds. He finally broke the spears and managed to catch the CoB in turn6.

Meanwhile i killed of his spearmen in turn6.

All in all the game ended 16-4 to me as well.

Final Standing:
I was placed 5th in the final standings.
I clearly should have pushed for more points in game 1 and 2. But it clearly highligts the issue of the army: To win big. You only have 1 unit which captures points. And a slow moving one as well.

Based on the tournament i went back to the drawing board and came up with this list that is a mix between the offensive manticore list above and the BG list i used in the tournament.

The hybrid list:
Dreadlord, General, Manticore, HA, Shield, Whip of agony, Ironcurse Icon, Talisman of Preservation, Cloak of Hag Graef - 349 Pts.
Master, Shield, SDC, Dark Pegasus, Sword of Might, Armour of Eternal Servitude - 186 Pts.
Master, Halberd, HA, SDC, 3 x Null Talisman - 137 Pts.
Assassin, 2xHw, Rending Stars, Manbane - 151 Pts.
Assassin, 2xHw, Rending Stars, Manbane - 151 Pts.
Death Hag, Cauldron of Blood - 200 Pts.
36 Dark Elf Warriors, M, S, C, Gleaming Pennant - 236 Pts.
36 Dark Elf Warriors, M, S, C, Std. of Eternal Flame - 241 Pts.
5 Dark Riders, M - 92 Pts.
5 Harpies - 55 Pts.
5 Harpies - 55 Pts.
20 Black Guards, M, S, C, Crimson Death, Std. of Murder - 345 Pts.
Total: 2198


Mon Sep 03, 2012 9:48 am
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No BSB?
Actually, you've got one of the few lists that can do without, with little Ld tests to take.

Grats on the three wins and the good final standing.

_________________
Winds never stop blowing, Oceans are borderless. Get a ship and a crew, so the World will be ours! Today the World, tomorrow Nagg! {--|oBrotherhood of the Coast!o|--}


Mon Sep 03, 2012 12:54 pm
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No BSB. Unfortunately the comp dictates 1 of hydra cob or BSB. Difficult choice but i choose cob for this type of army. But it is a great blow to have no bsb.
DE are as usual in denmark hit extremlyr hard

_________________
Interesting threads from the past:
BG Executioners Axe List:
Facing Ogres:
Facing WoC:
Effective use of Magic
Tips Using Harpies:


Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:20 pm
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Good news well done! Out of all lists I realy prefer the last version you posted item/unit minimaxing has been done properly and you pose many threats with that list.

Now what's done is done and 5th place is not bad especially when were winner on all fights. The skaven player who arrived 45 mins late that's a lot they should have awarded you some extra points for that match as a compensation!

On the list you used on tournament I don't realy like the hand of khaine on Assassins it's a very situational item the realy terrifying opponents are either ITP or they got so many attacks that -1 attack doesn't realy matter and that's 30 points in total that could have been spent elsewere for example musician on DR + some further boosting on units or chars.

I realy believe that on your final version list posted above your itemisation and units are optimal so I'd realy enjoy to read you next battle report.

_________________
'And lo, he shall rule with a dark hand and his shadow shall touch uppon every land.'

Single combat I await
My shadow brings them fear
The spikes upon my chariot
Will grind them when they're near...


Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:20 pm
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Thanks for the write up, Scyloc.

Great performance winning 3 out of 3! With this being a game of dice, I wouldn't be too critical of yourself for not getting more points on the board.

I'm surprised with how well you Spear blocks and Assassins did - but I guess that is the dynamic of 8th. Infantry block vs Infantry block.

Excellent play & your use of the Assassins, Characters and magic items was educational!

Best of luck with the Manti list :twisted:

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"All who surrender will be enslaved; whoever does not surrender but opposes with struggle and dissension, shall be annihilated."


Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:10 pm
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Noble
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Joined: Tue May 12, 2009 8:56 am
Posts: 423
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
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"I just read through my previous tournament post, and i apologize for the many errors. The post was written rather fast and under time pressure."

To close the book on the BG list used in the tournament:

The day after the tournament. A couple of hours after the above write up. I had another game in another ongoing tournament against ogres.
Still i did not have enough time to get the models ready, so i had to play with the old list again.

I really look forward to playtesting the "new" hybrid manticore BG list. Next game in the tournament is on monday where i should be able to give it a spin.

Below i will give you a short battle report of the game against ogres.

And after that i will summarize my experience playing with such a simpleminded BG deathstar list.

BG List:
Dreadlord, HA, Shield, Dark Pegasus, Whip of agony, Talisman of Preservation, Cloak of Hag Graef - 294 Pts.
Dreadlord, General, SDC, Executioner's Axe, Luckstone, Blood Armour - 246 Pts.
Death Hag, Cauldron of Blood - 200 Pts.
Master, GW, HA, SDC, 3 x Null Talisman - 137 Pts.
Assassin, 2xHw, Rending Stars, Hand of Khaine, Manbane - 166 Pts.
Assassin, 2xHw, Rending Stars, Hand of Khaine, Manbane - 166 Pts.
35 Dark Elf Warriors, M, S, C, Gleaming Pennant - 230 Pts.
35 Dark Elf Warriors, M, S, C, Std. of Eternal Flame - 235 Pts.
5 Dark Riders - 85 Pts.
5 Harpies - 55 Pts.
5 Harpies - 55 Pts.
20 Black Guards, M, S, C, Standard of Hag Graef - 330 Pts.
Total: 2199

Ogre Kingdom List:
Tyrant: Fencers Blade, Rock Eye, Glittering Scale
BSB: ?
Firebelly: HellHeart
Firebelly: Scroll, Ruby Ring
6 IronGuts with std of Discipline for Ld10 Tyrant
6 Ogres with Ironfists
10 Gnoblars
4 Leadbelchers
4 Leadbelchers
4 Maneaters: Poison, Sniper
2 Sabretooth Tigers
Ironblaster

Initial Thoughts:
The reason i think this match is interesting is because its a pretty scary list to face with a main unit consisting of only 20 T3 5+ models. On top of that his 4 maneaters could snipe my relatively unprotected characters before they even get into combat.
Its not the worst possible list to face. But its definately not one of the easiest.

Deployment:
We played on the 2012 ETC Map #1 if anyone is interested.
I won the roll for sides and choose the side with 2 hills on each flank denying him excellent camping spots for his leadbelchers.
A field giving soft cover was placed In the middle of the board and on his side on the left flank a 2 story house gave him a good vantage point for his leadbelchers/firebellies.

We started deploying our small redirecting units giving nothing away. I then placed a warrior regiment on the left flank (almost in the middle) across the house giving him the illusion that i would be deploying there. (In fact my plan was to deploy the BG on the right flank as the field in the middle of the board would shield them from the leadbelchers who most likely would be placed in/around the house on his left flank.
Sure enough. He placed both of his 4 Leadbelchers right next to his house across from my first warrior block.
I placed my 2nd warrior block in the middle and my BG on the right flank.

Most of my units were placed behind hills to prevent initial losses if i lost the roll for 1st turn. I did not though.
Deployment after vangard:
Image

DE turn1:
On my left flank i advanced with my DRs who hit behind the house looking towards his leadbelchers. They were placed in such a way the he was in their flank arc, but would not be able to charge them because their flank arc was protected by the house.
The spearmen SM2 moved 5" forward.
The DL moved up 10" or so just beyond the hill facing his leadbelchers.
In the middle the Spearmen with an assasin moved forward full speed towards his maneaters, and the BG did the same. Both harpy units were placed 1" in front of the BG to shield the character from the sniping maneaters. With long range and hard cover he would need 7s to hit me denying him poison.
CoB stayed behind the hill, only moving forward in the later turns to stay in range of the BG.

Ogre Turn 1:
His 6 Ogres moved around the house, while his leadbelchers and ironguts moved slowly forward shooting at my left spearmen. His maneaters moved up into the field and started sniping my general. But they only hit once which was saved.
He used his magic to remove all but 1 DR.

DE Turn 2:
On my turn my last DR moved in front of his left Leadbelchers annoying them. My left spearblock slowly reatreated 3" away from the approaching 6 ogres moving around the house.
My DL flew into the middle of his army facing the rear of his ironguts, ironblaster and leadbelchers threatening all sorts of charges next turn.
My right spearmen moved up getting close to the maneaters, while my BG moved in from the side, still shielded by harpies.

Ogre Turn 2:
He responded to my DL be moving his irongutstar so that i could not charge his ironblaster, however he left the rear of his leadbelchers units exposed.
He moved his 6 ogres forward coming around the house angled 45 degree towards my middle of the battleground.
He removed a few harpies from each unit with fireballs, but i still had 2 units reasonably sized units left. He also moved up his right tiger to get ready to block my BG.
Shooting also depleted some warriors. Nothing speciel. He also kills the last DR.

DE Turn 3:
I continue to move my left spearman 3" backwards getting comfortably out of charging range from his 6 approaching ogres.
I decide to charge the left most leadbelcher unit in the rear, a combat i should easily win. He would not be able to countercharge next turn as his irongutstar was angled towards my BG.

I moved my middle spearmen up 1" from his maneaters tempting him to charge me. My BG moved forward getting ready to charge next turn and one of my harpy units charge his approaching tiger.
My BG assasin shot an approaching Tiger with his rending stars.
In CC: The DL did 4 wounds to the leadbelchers with charge + rear he needed a 3 to hold. But unfortunately he got it. Dammn.
My harpies did 1 W to his tiger and the tiger did one W in return. Stand off.

Ogre Turn 3:
He decided to charge my spearmen with his rightmost Leadbelcher unit (in the flank) and his maneaters in the front. I promptly fled the charge. I had placed them so a flee would take them through my BG and displace my spearmen behind my BG so he would not be able to catch them.
He also reformed his Irongutstar to charge my DL caught in a fight with his Leadbelchers next turn.
His Ironblaster continued to try to snipe my DL in the BG unit, but i passed my look out sir again.
His 6 ogres decided to abandon the long walk towards my retreating left spearmen and moved 90 degrees across the board towards my BG.
In CC: My DL took 4 wounds from the ogres and totally fluffed his 3+ 4++ saves and died. What a disappointment. But he had succeded in delaying his irongutstar and his leadbelchers.
My harpies finished off his tiger.

DE Turn 4:
I charged his maneaters with my BG and a harpy unit. As the harpy unit was only 8" away from him, he had to hold. My right spearmen rallied and my left spearmen moved 10" forward towards the flank of his 6 Ogres trying to move around the house trying to delay them even further.
In CC: My BG murdered his 4 maneaters but lost the MR3 hero to his champion and overran into his Ironblaster. I moved single surviving harpy to block the countercharge from his Irongutstar.

Ogre Turn 4:
He reformed his 6 ogres to face my warriors. And killed my blocking harpy.
In CC i killed his Ironblaster and reformed towards his Irongutstar.

DE Turn 5:
My BG charged his Irongutstar. My left warriors stood their ground, while my right warriors moved closer to his leadbelchers doing some casualties with the throwing star assasin.
In CC: My BG murdered his irongutstar. Which led to 4 failed panic tests on leadbelchers the ogres and firebellies who had moved out of the house.

The last turns he fled with his units and i declared several charges to take the 6 ogres out of the table and shot the remaining few wounds of a leadbelcher unit with my assasins.

In his last turn he rallied both his Firebellies and succeeded in taking my BG down to 25% through leadbelchers and IF 3d6 fireball.

It ended 18 - 2 to me.

Experience taken from the list:
* Its a solid list, even if a bit dull.
* Template warmachines is an issue. Under this comp only 1 of each warmachine is allowed. In other comp i think the list is too vulnerable.
* As expected most people brought 2 firemages, and they really dont do much against this list. They removed a couple of wounds here and there, but nothing really important.
* The rending star assasins have performed really great. Especially against ogres where mournfangs suddenly become easy meat. You move into range fire 6 shots taking 4 wounds off them. They charge, you stand and shoot. They take 4 more wounds and suddenly you are only charged with 1-2 mournfangs out of the 4 starting models. Who are then butchers by the 8 ASF manbane attacks in close combat. Very effective. They allow me to move very aggressively with a unit due to the very strong Stand and Shoot. Most times the opponent gets timid and allows me to charge him next turn instead.
* Executioners Axe DL: Is absolut murder against multiwound models. Has performed well. But he lacks mobility. Is surprisingly difficult to kill. Especially when flanked by 2 Hand of Khaine assasins removing 2 attack from threatening ASF characters.
* Spearblocks: I am very satisfied with them. They are indeed an excellent choice. 2x 35-40 blocks really add some staying power to the DE army. They also draw a lot of attention which is really what their main purpose is. Absolutely great.
* DL on pegasus: He is risky to commit to a charge deep in enemy territory as the last BR showed. But he really adds some mobility and multiple threats to the army. I really wouldnt change him, but i need to watch him a bit more closely and not throw him needlessly away, but instead harass the first couple of turns, and then join in the key supporting charges.
Note to self. Dont charge him in alone. Its too risky.
* In general the list is very solid. Difficult to take points of. However it was difficulty winning 20-0, which is needed if you want to finish first in tournaments. I need to play ultra aggressive with it. In the above game it could have been interesting to see what would have happened if i deployed the BG unit centrally between the warrior blocks and just went forward full throttle.
* In a comp with magic his this hard (no lv to casting max 5 dice) i really havnt missed magic.
* The list is hard, but the characters are relatively fragile. If your facing a unit bigger than 20+ models you can easily loose 1-2 characters in the fight even when you win big and break the opponent. Thats an issue. But its difficult to do something about. The assasins are fragile, and the GW masters is as well. I could equip him with a BM scourge for a 3+ save but its still not that good.
Hand of Khaine is an attempt to remedy this. And it did work but its expensive at 30 Pts.
The assasins also have a reputation for being soft meaning that you opponent will usually focus fire on one or both of them with his return attacks. Even though he often hits on 5+ and you have a 5++ ward they only have 2 wounds.
Im not sure how to fix this, of even if it can be fixed.
* I havnt missed a BSB that much, and im confident that a CoB is a very solid choice (out of BSB, CoB or Hydra). I did loose a game on a 11+ on a single breaktest, but i could and should have avoided it. Apart from that you fail a swiftreform test now and then. Its bad, but not crucial.
* I would like to test it against an all cavalry empire list as T3 1+ as can be difficult i think. But on the other hand he also has few models. I think it is a game in favor of the DE.
* Its important to save you harpies for later stages in the game instead of throwing them away early. Its very important to keep them inside leadership bubble so a single magic missiles or stray shot does not cause a ld6 panic check.


Tue Sep 04, 2012 2:32 pm
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