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Tactics against Ogre Kingdom 
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Slave (off the Altar)

Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2011 9:06 pm
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One of my friends just started an Ogre Kingdom army, and he already owns 2 unit mournfang, 2 ironblasters, both big monsters, lots of maneaters and pretty much everything else.. ive never played against ogres with my Dark Elves so im not quite sure how to handle them.

Im thinking about an Executinor horde with Deathhag BSB to give them ASF.. this could deliver som serious damage even among mournfag and stonehorns. Executinors Axe also look like an fine addition to a lord, but this would require me to put the ASF banner into a non-khanite unit, which he could join...

What are you guys thoughts? Which units are go, and which are no-go? Lores? Combos? :P

And if another topic about this already exist, let me now! :)


Tue Oct 02, 2012 1:15 pm
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Cold One Knight

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Ogres really hate Purple Sun their 'can't target my unit on a 2+' banner is useless against it.

It kills on average 2/3 of ogres it hits.

Death is good in general against them as sniping individual Monsters/Mournfang/Iron blaster/Maneater/sabertusk eater is often worth it.

Soulblight is useful and Doom and Darkness is money.

They don't like the metal signature spell (include a L1 or 2).

Lifetaker is good to remove chaff (sabertusks).

Shades can really annoy them.

Two large (25+) units of WE with Banner of murder and razor standard can really chem them up.

Include harpies to prevent all your witches dying from inmpact hits.


Tue Oct 02, 2012 4:01 pm
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Lord of the Dragon Caves
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Generally good advice here.

I really need to emphasize the need to include multiple units of harpies if you have them. Use them to bait the ogre units into positions where you can charge them instead of being on the receiving end. It is really critical to avoid taking impact hits, so flee if you have to even with main combat units.

If you have models for them, fighty characters on Dark Pegasi are really good for taking out Ironblasters. Take 2 if you can -- one with Pendant of Khaeleth and one with Cloak fo Hag Graef and Dawnstone. Both can shrug off cannon balls with regularity.

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Tue Oct 02, 2012 4:20 pm
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The only thing I could add is mindrazor work's wonder's. And keep your sorc far away form his L4.

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Tue Oct 02, 2012 4:35 pm
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Generalissimo
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Anything with lots of melee punch will do handily: witch elves with armour piercing banner, blackguard with armour piercing banner, exec horde (with ASF death hag), and so on.

Be wary about taking chariots: they are cannon fodder.

Be careful about the magic heart magic item. I forget it's exact name and what it does, but it is a nasty anti-wizard's suprise. Perhaps someone else who knows more about it (I've not played against Ogres in ages) can elaborate more.

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Tue Oct 02, 2012 7:43 pm
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Corsair
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Hellheart, straight up the most vile and ignorant item against VC.

Every enemy wizard within D6x5 (I think... Can't remember) auto miscasts! So it can effectively neuter a magic phase quite easily...

Greedy Fist w/ Death Magic to slap levels off of your Wizard also hurts...


Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:41 pm
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Beastmaster
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Pit of Shades either the large or the small one hurts Ogres a lot with their low Initiative.

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Wed Oct 03, 2012 1:59 am
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Shadows can also woke, either to weaken their strength or their toughness. They also have their own template kill all spell that uses initiative. Though it's temporary, it still packs a punch as it's instant kill not wound.

There is also the Misima which can reduce their moment, making them easier to charge, and the mind razor which lets you wound based on your LD instead of your S, and Being LD 8, great news for us.

Witches are also loved as the poison attacks tend to get past the toughness thing.

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Wed Oct 03, 2012 4:46 am
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Slave (off the Altar)

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So Dark Riders, Shades and Harpies are needed for redirecting the big units, and to defeat them, using Executinors or Witch Elves hordes, or maybe a 20-mans black guard unit, is a good idea, i see. How about our beloved Hydra or the COld One Knights/Chariot? On one hand they can provide us with some high strengh attacks, but the main problem is that he prefers Ironguts over bulls, meaning most of his army will be hitting at S5/6. Byebye Armor save.. :( Also i can imagine those Fire Bellies to be a pain in the tail for the hydra with an S4 breath attack and Fire Magic.

And, as you all point out, Shadow seems to be the way to go, maybe backed up by a Lv 1 metal to take out Mournfangs and a lv 2 death with tome, to get Spirit Leech for the big monsters, and hopefully Soulblight or even the dread purple sun. Dark Magic seems to be ineffective, as both Black Horror and Soul Stealer doesn't do a lot against them. What about Fire? Is there any reasons to include a minor wizard with knowledge in that Lore?

And ive heard a bit about the hellheart. An skaven player friend of mine has played against it and he was shocked. Not only does it ruin an entire Magic Phase (which can be devasting for us!) it is also lethal for our wizards, and our troops (S10 templates). How do i avoid it? Even when he roll an 3 its still 15".

And what about Assassins? Could they work?


Wed Oct 03, 2012 3:33 pm
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Just one thing to note is that most Ogres are WS 3 so if you drop their WS with Miasma even by 1 they will be hitting BG and CoK on 5's which is nice.

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Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:32 pm
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I played my first 1500pt game against Ogres last night and after much deliberation I ran multiple Harpies against them with a really beefed up COK bus and master and that worked brilliantly. Despite loosing my lvl 4 turn two I managed to eek out a draw by placing 40 my spearmen horde in a tower and getting charges on the mournfangs, iron blaster and the slightly better Ogres (can't remember what they're called).

Just to add, I'd be reticent about playing witch elves due to high toughness, 6's are a big gamble which is too risky, even if you don't get the charges with the COK, they still have high WS, ignoring fear, and strength 4.


Thu Oct 04, 2012 1:43 pm
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It's not so much the risk of getting 6s as the lack of armour penetration. Not too big of a deal against most ogre forces, but a real pain against Mourfangs, who will mostly shrug off any but the most armour penetrating of attacks.

Same problem applies to static CoKs though: even with an armour piercing banner they are still just conferring a -2 to their enemy's armour saves: not great against mournfangs. No, if you go with CoKs you do definitely want to get the charge if at all possible, and just in case it can be a good idea to have a character with high strength weapon in the unit (e.g. champ with crimson death or whip of agony, or equivalent hero or lord).

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Thu Oct 04, 2012 3:36 pm
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Executioner

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Magic wise, lore of death all the way. I'd probably throw the maximum amount of dice a turn at purple sun, just one good one and it will drastically change the game. Shadow is of course very useful, and works well in concert with the death magic, as you can draw the scroll with purple sun.

Black Guard units with AP banner and cauldron ward actually grind out mournfang (as long as you charge).

Harpies are essential, not only for misleading units but also to ensure you can get the charge on certain units.

Pendant peg characters are also great for taking IBs

Shades and lifetaker for dealing with sabretusks early on

Corsairs don't do a huge amount against them (without mindrazor that is).

If I was to make a list specifically designed for OK, this is what I'd take at 2400pts (roughly):

Level 4 death
Level 4 shadow

Pendant Peg master
cauldron

20 crossbowmen
30 warriors
30 warriors
5 harpies
5 harpies

20 BG with AP banner
20 shades split over 3 units

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Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:42 pm
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Beastmaster
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I have also tried small CoK units to stall the Mournfangs advances on the flanks. The speed of the CoK may deny the Mournfangs a charge, also Miasma the mournfangs speed. The CoK are also good as they deny stomps from the Ogres.

As mentioned don't let the Mournfangs get the charge as the impact hits are deadly.

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Fri Oct 05, 2012 1:28 am
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Highborn

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I usually work with 2 sorceresses lvl 4 Shadow; lvl 2 Death. Against Ogres this works very well.
Mournfang can be quite nasty, and are quite fast. In my last match I used pit of Shades to almost kill one unit...and put Witerhing on another unit of Mournfang...Wounding one of these units on two will even allow a simple armour penetration to work wonders.
Do beware of his Big Beasty that gives ASL to all within 6" .


Fri Oct 05, 2012 9:46 am
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Lord of the Dragon Caves
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LordDrittz wrote:
I have also tried small CoK units to stall the Mournfangs advances on the flanks. The speed of the CoK may deny the Mournfangs a charge, also Miasma the mournfangs speed. The CoK are also good as they deny stomps from the Ogres.

As mentioned don't let the Mournfangs get the charge as the impact hits are deadly.


One difficulty with Cold One Knights is that if they get in a bad spot, they can't flee to avoid the charge since they are Immune to Psychology (side effect of Stupidity now even if they pass their leadership test). This makes proper use of Harpies and Dark Riders all the more important to properly set up the charge of your knights.

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Fri Oct 05, 2012 1:15 pm
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Dyvim Tvar wrote:
LordDrittz wrote:
I have also tried small CoK units to stall the Mournfangs advances on the flanks. The speed of the CoK may deny the Mournfangs a charge, also Miasma the mournfangs speed. The CoK are also good as they deny stomps from the Ogres.

As mentioned don't let the Mournfangs get the charge as the impact hits are deadly.


One difficulty with Cold One Knights is that if they get in a bad spot, they can't flee to avoid the charge since they are Immune to Psychology (side effect of Stupidity now even if they pass their leadership test). This makes proper use of Harpies and Dark Riders all the more important to properly set up the charge of your knights.


Agreed, the COKs have become a staple in my army and with two units of harpies which pulled the mournfangs out it allowed me to get a charge from the COKS which is brilliant. As discussed, you must not let them charge you with any unit, but the extra speed of the COKs makes this easier. In fact due to this and no fear tests, and no stomps, I would say they were the best unti to go up against them.


Fri Oct 05, 2012 1:34 pm
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Slave (off the Altar)

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Okay so i played agaisnt them yesterday. We had agreed on a 4k game without to much cheesing.

He brought 2 irongut unit, one with a tyrant, lv 4 maw and a firebelly and the other unit included a bruiser BSB, lv 4 death and another firebelly. He also had 4 mournfangs, 2 ironblasters, 3 x 10 gnoblars, 2 sabertusks and a stonehorn.

I played with a lv 4 shadow with dagger in warrior unit, a lv 1 metal, immortal dreadlord (Pendant, Crown of Command, Sword of Might and Dragonbane Helm), cauldron of blood, Hellebron in 39 witch elves, Death Hag BSB with ASF banner in 39 Executinor horde, a hydra, 2 x 6 shades with rending manbane assassin in each, 2 x 5 Harpies, 5 Dark Riders and 2 x 20 repeater crossbowmen.

What went well:
The Shade units with Assassins did a nice job. One of the units took out an Ironblaster over 2 turns and then went to shoot at his Ogres, while the other unit almost killed a gnoblar unit and killed the ironblaster.
Hellbron and Witch Elves. That unit was unbeatable! Hellbron took out his BSB and afterwards his lv 4 death without problems, while the rest of the witches killed his Firebelly (before it could use its Breath attack and hell heart!) and the rest of the ogre unit.
The Harpies worked wonders against the Stonehorn. It charged, killed them witout any problems and had to overrun due to its frenzy. My witches, which had just finishing killing his big unit, then flank charged it and Hellbron took it out without any problems. They also redirected the Mournfangs.
Lv 1 Metal. Metal Magic worked out good and killed almost all of his Mounrfangs!
Lv 4 shadow. In the end his only unit alive was the one with the tyrant and lv 4 maw. An weel placed Pit of Shades with irresistbel took out 5 ogres and the lv 4 maw. He gave up afterwards. I didn't get mind razor due to unlucky spell rolling, but i had T reducer and Miasma which i threw at the units my Witches faced.

What didn't work well:
The immortal Dreadlord failed his charge due to unlucky rolling, and was afterwards killed by a death sniper spell.
The Hydra died first turn from an Ironblaster.
The Executinors failed its charge against his unit with tyrant and lv 4 maw, and was afterwards charged. The combat went really bad, and they only managed to kill the Firebelley and wound his other two Characthers. They fled and was overrun.

In conclusion i can say that, as many of you pointed out, witches and shadow magic worked wonderfull, espicially combined! The Shades, Dark Riders and Harpies proved essential as well. The Hydra may be better left home as Firebelly, ironblasters and Maneaters have ways to deal with it. I have yet to try Black Guards and Cold One Knights, but i will next time i face them.. :)
Thanks for thet help everyone!


Sun Oct 07, 2012 3:54 pm
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Was your Immortal Dreadlord on a Cold One? I run mine on a Dark Steed which gives a 9" move as opposed to the 7" for the cold one. Admittedly its a lower armour save for him, I find Soulrender Str 6 is also better than the Sword of Might (same points cost) especially at killing Ogres.

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Sun Oct 07, 2012 5:54 pm
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