The Dwarf Rumor Mill sucks

[van Awful]

@ gidean

Nobody gets spells off against dwarves without rolling IF.

Why is that? what are the new rules on their magic defence?
Playing against the old book it was somewhat of a gamble, switching from taking no magic at all to going all out.
But IF wasn't the only way to get spells of.

[Melle]

gyro rules:

Gyrocopter: YAHOO 60pts cheaper (40ss per model) and now
are a Special Choice. Special Notation saying that you can field
up to 6 Gyrocopters in a normal army and 12 in a Grand Army!
Steam gun works as before except you don't have to roll for
partials. Can replace Steam gun for a D3 shot S5 18" Armor
Piercing Weapon for free (totally worthless IMO). Additionally,
once per game you can do a dive bomb (yes on regular Gyros)
instead of using the steam gun. Works like Terradon drop rocks
(target an unengaged enemy unit you moved over) but you do
an Artillery dice worth of S3 Armor Piercing hits, if you roll a
misfire, take a single wound with no armor saves. Gyro has same
stats (if memory serves). Basically always take 3 or at very very
least take 2 IMO, these things are the best part of new book.
Thats it for special choices on to the rares.



also on magic. they have +2 to dispel. hammers can get a banner with another +2.
runecharacters channel dice now, so no autos anymore. waay worse than be4

[Heartsbane]

And still the Dwarfs manage to be cynical about the release...

As a dwarf player first, and dark elf player second, this is a subject close to my heart. And yes, I'm cynical about it.

My main dislike is that there were only 3 valid dwarf strategies (hardcore gunline, GW hordes with artilliary support and the gimmic list of anvil, miners and rangers), so things got kinda samey. I don't see much in the rumours so far that changes this.

I combat dwarves are good, there's no denying. But they're far too slow to pick their fights, so against an opponent even half way awake, they'll always find their units in the least favourable match ups for them. (for instance, any chaos player who lets his skull crushers go into the front of a hammerer horde deserves everything that results!)

The other issue is that (in my meta at least) T4 and heavy armour doesn't make units massively survivable unless they've got numbers in their units. But dwarves aren't cheap, so the army will either have (i) few large units or (ii) very few large units and a smattering of supporting units. In instance (i) a large proportion of the dwarf army can be stalled for a critical turn by cheap chaff; for instance in a 2000 point game there will usually be a couple of ~400 point units. Tying two of these up with chaff allows the other to be focused on for 3 rounds of close combat before any support can possibly get there. (ii) Isn't any better, as the enemy can wipe out the smaller units which are still expensive enough to yield alot of VPs. Then the dwarves are trying to force the confrontation, which with their slower speed is an uphill battle.

Monsters rip the heart out of dwarf units, and chaff disorder battle lines, with artilliary the only answer to either. To deal with both sets of threats means a dwarf player was pretty much forced to have a whole battery of artilliary, forcing the army into the standard mould.

The only things I've seen to suggest new options are viable are slayers and hammerers, who with their special rule or multi attacks (respectively) can function in smaller units.

[Melle]

Anvil of Doom: Pretty much useless now. Uses Runelord's
Toughness and his Wounds (provides +2 like Shieldbearers
though). Gives him Unbreakable and a 5+ ward save. Provides
one free casting and dispel dice. Casting Runes: All Runes are
now Innate Bound Spells (like a Warrior Priest from Empire) so
you have to do it in the magic phase and roll casting dice. 3
Spells are:
Rune of Oath and Home (power level 3) - Augment that targets
all friendly dwarf units within 24" of the Anvil. Affected units
are Immune to Psychology until the next friendly magic phase.
Rune of Oath and Steel (power level 4) - Augment that targets
a single dwarf unit anywhere on the table. Affected unit gains
+1 to its armor save (to a max of 1+) until the start of the next
friendly magic phase.
Rune of Wrath and Ruin (power level 5) - Direct Damage with
24" range. 2D6 S4 hits.
So pretty much useless especially considering it costs 85ss.




shieldbearers is nice now with +2wounds.
so a tankylord can easily get 6wounds and T 6. and 1+save.
very lame on the offensive though if that defensive.
oath stone also better now.
runes cant go on greatweapons anymore


also noteable. first new book that doesnt implement any new characters since VC i think

[Daeron]

Ehm.. That's a neat list of bound spells. Interesting. Does failing one mean that the item as a whole can't be used anymore in that magic phase?

[Gidean]

@ gidean

Nobody gets spells off against dwarves without rolling IF.

Why is that? what are the new rules on their magic defence?
Playing against the old book it was somewhat of a gamble, switching from taking no magic at all to going all out.
But IF wasn't the only way to get spells of.

Because my understanding is that they will still have the +2 to every dispel. They will still have almost unlimited dispel scrolls and they will still generate EXTRA dispel dice for having a Runelord. My son plays Dwarves and unless I get an spell off with IF my spell does NOT go off. So I can't rely on something like Doom Bolt which is already hard to cast with Warlocks having a casting value of 12+.

I am looking for solid counters to these flying threats and something that might work 20% of the time is NOT a solid counter.

Anvil of Doom: Pretty much useless now. Uses Runelord's
Toughness and his Wounds (provides +2 like Shieldbearers
though). Gives him Unbreakable and a 5+ ward save. Provides
one free casting and dispel dice. Casting Runes: All Runes are
now Innate Bound Spells (like a Warrior Priest from Empire) so
you have to do it in the magic phase and roll casting dice. 3
Spells are:
Rune of Oath and Home (power level 3) - Augment that targets
all friendly dwarf units within 24" of the Anvil. Affected units
are Immune to Psychology until the next friendly magic phase.
Rune of Oath and Steel (power level 4) - Augment that targets
a single dwarf unit anywhere on the table. Affected unit gains
+1 to its armor save (to a max of 1+) until the start of the next
friendly magic phase.
Rune of Wrath and Ruin (power level 5) - Direct Damage with
24" range. 2D6 S4 hits.
So pretty much useless especially considering it costs 85ss.




shieldbearers is nice now with +2wounds.
so a tankylord can easily get 6wounds and T 6. and 1+save.
very lame on the offensive though if that defensive.
oath stone also better now.
runes cant go on greatweapons anymore


also noteable. first new book that doesnt implement any new characters since VC i think

One man's 'useless' is another man's treasure. This sounds pretty good to me. The anvil can also move now.

[Melle]

most rules i just copy paste from dwarfthread.

itp is kinda meh on a ld9-10 army. immune to fear/terror/panic had been dooable. i like to be able to flee sometimes.

+1 armour isnt all that, and 2d6 MM, well maybe i underestimate it.

and more often than not u boundspell it against +4 to dispel....

+2 innate dispel is the least opponents usually have, making rune of valaya mandatory on hammers for +4disp.


here is a cut on dispel rune. max 1/ runecharacter now

Talismanic Runes:
Master Rune of Balance: Same cost as before but now only
steals a dice on a 4+ and does nothing else. Still Runelords and
Runesmiths only. Not worth it.
Master Rune of Spite: 20pts cheaper than what it was in the
previous edition but a totally new effect. Now whenever bearer
suffers an unsaved Wound in close combat it does a S5 hit in
return. Fluffly and pointless IMO.
Master Rune of Passage: Same as a champion upgrade and
allows the character and the unit he joins to automatically pass
any Dangerous Terrain tests. Could be good for a filling in
10pts to spend.
Runes of Warding: 6+/5+/4+ ward save for 1/2/3 applications
of the rune. 5+ ward save is 5pts more than the BRB version,
others are same as BRB versions.
Rune of Spellbreaking: Runesmith/Runelord only. A single Rune
of Spellbreaking auto dispels a non-irresistable spell. A second
Rune of Spellbreaking auto dispels a non-irresistable spell and
on a D6 roll of a 4+, destroys that spell (Spelleater from last
book). Do not misunderstand, having two Runes of
Spellbreaking doesn't give you two scrolls, one that eats a spell,
it instead gives you a Spelleater rune exactly from last book
(5pts cheaper this time around though). Both are good choices,
I always like having a dispel scroll and Dwarfs can still get more
than one, just have to spread them around multiple Runesmiths.
Even more important to have at least one of these with the
weakened anti-magic from the Master Rune of Balance and the
Runesmith/Runelord nerfs.

[Dalamar]

Dwarfs have +2 to dispel rolls as a race and extra +2 if they buy a runic banner that can only be carried by hammerers or bsb. Thats a total of +4 so like any army with a lord caster.

Then the banner also dispels any RiP spells on a roll of 3+ (hence why its so expensive)

Then they can have one rune of spelleating (destroys spell on 4+) and maybe two spellbreaking (dispel scroll) if they sink all those points in runesmith. It will be more likely to see one spelleating and maybe one spellbreaking on top.

They also channel dice like everyone and don't just add free dice (anvil gives 1 free PD and DD)

So, their magic defense is still strong but it'a not ridiculous as it used to be.

[Melle]

some nice runes:

Armor Runes:
Master Rune of Adamant: Grants wearer T10. Nice on paper but
really expensive, leaves very little room for any offensive kit.
Master Rune of Gromril: 5points more than the previous version
(if memory serves), grants wearer 1+ armor save that cannot be
improved. Still a really nice bonus and 15pts cheaper than the
2+ armor save provided by the BRB magic armor.
Rune of Fortitude: A Rune of Fortitude grants its wearer +1T.
Two Runes of Fortitude grant the wearer +1T and a 5+ ward
save. Three Runes of Fortitude grant the wearer +1T, a 5+ ward
save, and against attacks with the multiple wounds special rules,
roll a D6, on a 2+ the wounds are not multiplied. +1T is nice,
making our Thanes/Lords T6 but there is a better rune combo
(see rune of iron below).
Rune of Iron: A Rune of Iron grants the wearer +1 Wound (great
in combination with the Shieldbearers option for a Lord). Two
Runes of Iron grant the wearer +1 Wound and +1 Toughness
(even better and only 10pts more than the +1 Toughness from
a Rune of Fortitude, I would say thats easily worth it for another
wound). Three Runes of Iron grant the wearer +1 Wound, +1
Toughness and a 5+ ward save (not worth it for the additional
points IMO). This is my favorite rune for characters in the book.
Give two runes of Iron to a Dwarf Lord with Shieldbearers and
suddenly you are T6 with 6 wounds and a 1+ armor save
(assuming you have a shield). This is the one redeeming quality
for a combat lord. Even on a BSB 3 Wounds with T6 and a 2+
or 1+ save (from a Rune of Stone - see below) is really hard to
get through, add on a rune a parrying and thats a tough nut to
crack.
Rune of Shielding: Grants the wearer a 2+ ward save against
Wounds caused by shooting attacks and magic missiles.
Multiples have no further effect. If only Slayer characters could
take Armor Runes...
Rune of Preservation: 2+ ward save against wounds with Killing
Blow or Heroic Killing Blow. Worse than what it used to be but
can still be nice to stop that instant death on your general or
BSB.
Rune of Impact: Grants the wearer Impact Hits (1). Cool, fluffy
and nice to look at, leave this one at home.
Rune of Stone: Basically as before. +1 armor save. Multiples
have no further effect. This is the only rune breaking the Rule of
Pride, meaning several characters can wear gromril armor with a
single Rune of Stone.

[Clockwork]

Anvil of Doom: Pretty much useless now. Uses Runelord's
Toughness and his Wounds (provides +2 like Shieldbearers
though). Gives him Unbreakable and a 5+ ward save. Provides
one free casting and dispel dice. Casting Runes: All Runes are
now Innate Bound Spells (like a Warrior Priest from Empire) so
you have to do it in the magic phase and roll casting dice. 3
Spells are:
Rune of Oath and Home (power level 3) - Augment that targets
all friendly dwarf units within 24" of the Anvil. Affected units
are Immune to Psychology until the next friendly magic phase.
Rune of Oath and Steel (power level 4) - Augment that targets
a single dwarf unit anywhere on the table. Affected unit gains
+1 to its armor save (to a max of 1+) until the start of the next
friendly magic phase.
Rune of Wrath and Ruin (power level 5) - Direct Damage with
24" range. 2D6 S4 hits.
So pretty much useless especially considering it costs 85ss.

What did you expect from the man who thought that the Lizardmen Engine of the Gods was too OP and needed a nerf? I don't know about you, but I'm sure glad that thing has stopped rampaging across the meta...

Genuinely, this sort of thing proves to me that Vetock just does not know what he's doing. And I'm quite a fan of bound spells - if your level 4 falls down a hole, its good to have something around to keep you in the magic phase. They are usually low enough casting value that you can force your opponent to take tough decisions. Does he stop you trying to sneakily one dice something, or save up for your Level 4? Its all good tactical play. In essence, they help you saturate a magic phase.

But here's the thing... Bound Spells augment a magic phase. They don't work when its your only magic phase, for two reasons: One, you don't have any wizard levels backing them up, meaning someone who does will usually have the advantage in dispelling. That wouldn't matter if you had lots of spells to throw around though, as your opponent would have to make a hard choice about what to stop. Which brings me on to problem Two: there's no hard choice. A 2D6 S4 magic missile is pretty irrelevant - and even where it might be relevant (clearing chaff), Dwarves have plenty of small arms fire, not to mention the revamped Gyrocopters, which do the same thing but better (And, bizarrely, it has the highest casting value. Wtf?). Whilst the range of Oath and Home is awesome, ITP isn't as effective on Ld10 Dwarves as for other races and, moreover, its only going to become relevant in later stages of the game (so your opponent will focus on stopping it if its a big deal). And whilst Oath and Steel is pretty cool in keeping your dudes alive, it also will only be relevant at certain points (during a combat) when your opponent might as well stop it.

Early game: Stop Ruin; or Steel on interfering Rangers/Miners.
Mid game: Stop Steel.
Late game: Stop Home so any big combats are won.
If playing Gyro MSU: stop Home.
If playing Hammer Deathstar: Stop Steel.
If playing Dwarf Assault: Stop Ruin, then stop Home, then Steel in key combats.

Well, that's a tough decision. Because each spell has such a minimal impact, its going to be very easy for the opponent to stop what's going to have the most impact by letting the other two through. Its like the very opposite of magic saturation, which is what Bound Spells effectively contribute.

Generally speaking, I'm a fan of many of the changes to Dwarves. But Vetock's not the man to push through radical change where its needed, as evidenced by Lizardmen, and I'm worried that we're seeing that here. Perhaps Gyrocopters will change things, although I would have preferred it had we not had to deal with even more bloody Flying stuff.

And its 170 points. Just... Why?

[Gidean]

Dwarfs have +2 to dispel rolls as a race and extra +2 if they buy a runic banner that can only be carried by hammerers or bsb. Thats a total of +4 so like any army with a lord caster.

Then the banner also dispels any RiP spells on a roll of 3+ (hence why its so expensive)

Then they can have one rune of spelleating (destroys spell on 4+) and maybe two spellbreaking (dispel scroll) if they sink all those points in runesmith. It will be more likely to see one spelleating and maybe one spellbreaking on top.

They also channel dice like everyone and don't just add free dice (anvil gives 1 free PD and DD)

So, their magic defense is still strong but it'a not ridiculous as it used to be.

Thank God! The anti-magic Dwarves of last edition were one of their most broken aspects. Was so tired of my entire magic phase being shut down. Especially when I played Vampire Counts. 3-4 dispel scrolls, stealing one of my power dice and have +4 to dispel was just overwhelming. The only other thing I thought was broken was the cannon that could not misfire. Sounds like that is still around but they upped the points of the cannons so maybe...not as bad.

[Amboadine]

Still don't think it is going to be worth taking too much magic against Dwarfs. Even with a slight nerf I wouldn't want to rely on having to get a spell though. Possibly better to look at neutralising their other strengths rather than let them neuter ours.

[Gidean]

Still don't think it is going to be worth taking too much magic against Dwarfs. Even with a slight nerf I wouldn't want to rely on having to get a spell though. Possibly better to look at neutralising their other strengths rather than let them neuter ours.

Oh I agree. I firmly believe that Doom Bolt is NOT our answer to the copters and bombers.

@ Dalamar. It should be noted that Ben Curry shares my concern about the new bombers and our flimsy executioners and witches.

[Dalamar]

Yeah, sure, if they hit they will hurt.

If the hit
And don't explode
And don't scatter off target
They will hurt.

[Gerner]

Like any stone thrower.

[Amboadine]

Like any stone thrower.

Which they also have Templates galore.

On my way to pick up the book now. My afternoon is now going to be looking for a way to neutralise the Dwarfs using a all comings list. Think I might need to make a few adjustments.

[Dalamar]

And how many stone throwers do you see in armies with access to cannons?

[Amboadine]

Got my hands on the book now.
They have some lovely new models. The Ironbreakers / Irondrakes are amazing.

A few of the rumours mentioned in this thread aren't true.
Quarrellers and Thunderers are both core, one isn't rare.
Only Thorgrim has access to the throne of power. All lords can have shieldbearers though.

All in all, some nice pictures and the books seems of a fairly good quality.

Still absorbing all the rules.

[Gidean]

And how many stone throwers do you see in armies with access to cannons?

That pretty much is exclusive to Dwarves unless you count the odd Skaven Stoner Thrower and cannons. I see lot of stone throwers in Dwarf armies due to rune upgrades which make them pretty accurate. I have the new book in hand and GW really hosed Dwarves on new models. Only 4 new kits (I bunch new plastic characters into one offering) Compare that to our 9 or so new kits. Not sure what the new Dwarf Player is going to do when GW stops making finecrap. No stone thrower, bolt thrower, flame cannon or Anvil of doom. Man, I really really expected a new anvil. Especially since it can move now I thought they would make a wheeled version. Very disappointing with the new range of models (in scope).