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MangoPunch wrote:
So, I took like ~6 months off Warhammer; and I have to say I am extremely confused. Could someone please explain what exactly is going on.


Not sure that is possible:)
But here is a quick rundown on end times
http://1d4chan.org/wiki/The_End_Times

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Thu Jan 08, 2015 9:41 pm
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Compare Ogryns:

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More evidence of the 40king of FB? :|

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Sat Jan 10, 2015 12:08 am
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Well I carried on my collection of Ltd Ed ET books before they sold out. Hardbacks are still available, which is a nice change. They limited them to one per order this time as they should have done for Khaine more than likely.

Of course it could also be because the website apparently crashed just after they all went up.

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Sat Jan 10, 2015 2:13 am
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T.D. wrote:
More evidence of the 40king of FB? :|


Not necessarily. I was around in GW's red phase - everything was painted with blood red. It wouldn't surprise me that they'd given these two to the same painter...who probably likes that colour.

Big models in armour that are blue are bound to look similar ;).

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Sat Jan 10, 2015 10:12 am
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Well looks as if the round/ oval bases picture has been confirmed as real from the latest WD. Not particularly happy about that info. But in other news Ungrim becoming the Incarnate of Fire. So I expect super stat slayer King rules in the book.

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Sat Jan 10, 2015 11:30 am
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As for round bases, they confuse me.
Bell/Furnace on round... but Thanquol, Verminlords and Rat Orges on square?

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Sat Jan 10, 2015 4:25 pm
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Dalamar wrote:
As for round bases, they confuse me.
Bell/Furnace on round... but Thanquol, Verminlords and Rat Orges on square?


Well, there's your first mistake...expecting GW to have any consistency to what they do :lol:.

It took them at least 15 years to give bikes in 40k an actual base instead of being free-standing ;)

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Sat Jan 10, 2015 5:58 pm
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Dalamar wrote:
As for round bases, they confuse me.
Bell/Furnace on round... but Thanquol, Verminlords and Rat Orges on square?



And if the rumors of new Warhammer being skirmish based are not true then how the heck to you rank up stormvermin and plaguemonks with round base Bell/Furnace?


Sat Jan 10, 2015 7:46 pm
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So it seems someone has managed to get hold of the book and has announce that their are now battlescrolls that effectively allow you to ignore the normal selection rules. Future coming to life before us.
Those familiar with 40k will already know the concept. See summary quotes below.

Quote:


Essentially, you take a specific set of units. Those units do not count toward your allowances for your army (as in, they aren't core, special, rare, heroes or lords for your point limits, though they count against your total points). For taking those units you get a couple free special rules. Finally, you can theoretically take as many formations as you can afford, though in this case you are limited by the special characters.

In this case, one of the special rules for these formations is that if you take them you aren't forced to take 25% of your total points in core units, as it would be the case normally.

For example, let's say you take the dwarven battlescroll. Thorgrim, Ungrim, Josef, 10 Hammerers, 10 Rangers, 10 Irondrakes and 3 x 10 Slayers are 2030 pts. If you are playing at 2500, you can still take it, as you are not forced to take any core as long as this battlescroll is in your army, and you could spend the remaining 470 pts however you wanted, as long as you meet the normal percentages, barring core.



Quote:
First, all of them allow you to avoid taking any core if you take them in your army (they are effectively the core).

Skavens:
Thanquol's uprising: Thanquol & boneripper, Verminking, clanrats, stormfiends, gutter runners and giant rats, and a unit made of warlock engineers, only one of which can be upgraded to wizard or take magic items. Units in the formation close to Thanquol are unbreakable, and the warlock unit has some advantages when casting Warp Lighting.

Clawpack of Mors: Queek, Stormvermins, 2 units of clanrats, jezzails and globadiers. Units in the formation close to Queek reroll charges, and once per battle shooting units may shoot twice.

Dwarf Throng: Thorgrim, Ungrim Incarnate of fire, Bugman, Hammerers, Rangers, Irondrakes and 3 units of slayers. Slayers reroll to hit with deathblow attacks, and can reroll 1s to wound and armor saves with core units in the whole army.

Red Host: Tehenhauin, Skink Chief, Skink Cohort, Salamanders, Chameleons, 2 Bastiladons, Riperdactyls. Hatred (Skavens), arcs on bastiladons deal 3D6 instead of 2D6, the skink and the skink cohort have +1WS

Defenders of Middenheim: Valten, Battle Wizard Lord, Grand Master, Knigtly order, Halberdiers with 2 crossbowmen units as detachments, free company, swordsmen. The wizard knows a new spell, valten and units close to him are unbreakable, and as long as he is alive everyone in the empire list is stubborn.

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Sat Jan 10, 2015 9:41 pm
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Hope I've not understood that correctly... Sounds like bribing people not to have to write an army list, or fluff, or have a single original thought. Best not type too much or I'll rant! Maybe it's a modern phenomenon deciding your customers want simple cookie cutter spoon feeding.

I imagine it appears profitable to incentivise everyone, via special rules, to buy a pre-built set of units of power X, Y and Z. Helps forecast, manufacture, etc. efficiently. Then you release limited edition, short runs of units with power X+1, Y+1, Z+1, X+2, etc. in turn. Far more predictable, drives much higher unit sales over time than giving people a 20 unit army book to select from at a range of power levels. But is it any fun? And if it's not, how profitable is that after all?

When you look at all the pages of fluff and army list discussion, you see people enjoy it. Are the hordes of young customers they're allegedly seeking so different from their existing that will settle for less?

Sorry for the negative rant. Every time I cross my fingers it seems I get kicked in the face, so I'm fearing the worst... And, breathe...

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Sun Jan 11, 2015 1:44 am
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I must admit in principle I do not mind the concept of formations as a way of recreating historic armies, providing an alternative way to theme an army as well as different options when scaling up a force to massive games (it should be noted that it was in apocalypse where these were first seen for this reason). Indeed it may even be a positive that these provide a warhammer equivalent of the teired lists you can find in warmachine/hordes if this is something based around a special character. Either way if you are going to have them it a good thing in my mind to use them as part of end times battles and campaigns for these above reasons

Unfortunately from my experience formations have been handled very badly by GW for 40k. For starters there are tons of them making it very difficult to keep tabs of, then of course many are sold to ios and android users by micro transaction rather than appearing in books, then they often seem to be shaped by oh that sounds like a good idea rather than any form of play testing, and the benefits of the formation do not cost extra points in game, just buy the stuff and you can use it.

It is the rediculous number of such publications which forced me to make my final jump to only playing fantasy and I hope it will not be repeated here


Sun Jan 11, 2015 8:32 am
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If it came to such a thing, I'd see it more like an armour set in an RPG game. You can build your gear from individual elements, or get a set that comes with special rules and extras. This set may, or may not complete your entire gear set.

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Sun Jan 11, 2015 10:37 am
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Dalamar wrote:
As for round bases, they confuse me.
Bell/Furnace on round... but Thanquol, Verminlords and Rat Orges on square?



This actually reminds me of some players putting Warmachines on round bases and reporting an improvement in playability. With a clear base to measure to and from, some of the measuring becomes easier. It's also "fair", as in consistent and clear. They were put on round bases because of the 360 degree sight.

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Sun Jan 11, 2015 10:50 am
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I'm all for formations.

But not in the above pre-set list style. To me, it's "Gimmickhammer".

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Sun Jan 11, 2015 12:44 pm
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I look at that in a very different way. Look at some of the special characters we had before.
7th ed Hellebron, making Witch Elves core.
8th ed Malus making his unit of COKs pass their stupidity.
I think there was a 6th-7th ed Cult of Slaneesh around Morathi.
There was a 6th edition Garisson list, merging RXBs and Spears in a single unit.

Maybe they are making the core book a little more 'state troops' focused, making it more balanced and general army style centric. Then they occasionally release a special character, say Morathi, with special rules to build a Cult of Slaneesh. Because the set army already contains a fixed formation, it needn't include "core%" etc but could instead offer different options to expand the list. IE it could state "this list can be expanded with Witch Elves (Devotees) and Chaos Warriors, etc".
Likewise a Hellebron special character could introduce a Cult of Khaine core list, which can be expanded with a specific selection of units.

It shifts away attention and focus of the army book, without invalidating it.
TBH I can see many advantages to such a system. "Pre sundering" era lists are still popular among High Elves. Maybe they'll make an Aenarion list someday, helping people make such a theme not just in models but in their playlist as well.

Of course, this is all theory. But that's what I imagine the rumours to mean.

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Sun Jan 11, 2015 1:13 pm
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Some nice thoughts on the subject Daeron. I would be quite happy with those concepts if that is indeed the direction.
I think one issue maybe the sheer amount you may need to keep up with, but done in a controlled manner may add some variations to the game.

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Sun Jan 11, 2015 1:24 pm
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Daeron wrote:
Dalamar wrote:
As for round bases, they confuse me.
Bell/Furnace on round... but Thanquol, Verminlords and Rat Orges on square?



This actually reminds me of some players putting Warmachines on round bases and reporting an improvement in playability. With a clear base to measure to and from, some of the measuring becomes easier. It's also "fair", as in consistent and clear. They were put on round bases because of the 360 degree sight.



The problem is....the Bell and Furnace are NOT warmachines. So why does GW have them on round bases in their own publication (WD) unless they are moving that way for all troops? What scares me the most is if they change the base size. Is everything going to a 25mm round? Frankly I don't think you could base many of the 20mm troops on 20mm rounds. They already have trouble ranking with squares. The way it could work is with that tray thing people are talking about (like LoTR) which would actually add millimeters to the over all frontage and width.

Then I can see the rule being that you don't worry about actually touching. You just count up the models in the front rank and those can all strike. This of course will change the tactical dynamics of the game quite a bit.

Just as a side note. It amused me when they went from cavalry bases to a sort of oval for 40K motorcycles. I failed to see any difference in what could get into close combat. My old Space Wolf bikes are still on rectangular bases.


Sun Jan 11, 2015 6:25 pm
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Fair points, Daeron.

But I'd prefer that sort of flexibility to be in the hands of the gamers rather than game designers.

Not that it couldn't be a good tool for games designers, rather I'm cynical as to the commercial drive behind the way they would do it i.e. if you want to compete with X enemy you need Y bundle ...3 months later, and Z bundle for A opponent, etc, etc.

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Sun Jan 11, 2015 6:33 pm
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T.D. wrote:
Fair points, Daeron.

But I'd prefer that sort of flexibility to be in the hands of the gamers rather than game designers.

Not that it couldn't be a good tool for games designers, rather I'm cynical as to the commercial drive behind the way they would do it i.e. if you want to compete with X enemy you need Y bundle ...3 months later, and Z bundle for A opponent, etc, etc.


+1

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Sun Jan 11, 2015 7:00 pm
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lol! Well I'm not going to look down on G.W. for a could-be scenario based on a theorized business model deduced on a rumour for an unannounced update on a game :P

Obviously, it is possible that a new combo like that could be the flavour of the month, either gaming wise or model wise. Who knows? As a veteran player, I'm not worried since I have such a broad range of models that I expect I'll need only minimal models to achieve such a list. As would many veterans do, I reckon. It's no different than the change in power balance introduced by a new army book now, except that it's more limited. For a new player it could hint a good starting base. For a Vet it could offer a new flavour for a few new models.

The options are.. plenty. There's no guarantee it will offer more than we have now, but such a system has the potential to offer more than a single armybook ever has/can. Right now, some armies (including ours) suffer the "best in slot" syndrome. Bleakswords are a rare sight. So are Corsairs. Why? Same for Black Guards and Scourgerunners.

Right off the bat, all units are in immediate competition with one another. It's an extreme challenge to balace them all. In fact, I'd be willing to bet money on it that even you can't pull it off :P No offense though.. Neither would I. It would take an immense effort to succeed and eventually it may just prove impossible.
Special rules can help, but it would become a cumbersome, complex book if all kinds of odd combos are presented in the book itself. Special character focused list permits new units to shine in the daylight and special combos.

Most of all, it permits G.W. to focus on a single, solid book and then keep the interest and novelty alive with minor expansions along the way. That's something I would enjoy, at least. Even if I pass on one or two of those lists because they don't suit me game-wise, style-wise or money wise.

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Sun Jan 11, 2015 8:57 pm
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Daeron wrote:
In fact, I'd be willing to bet money on it that even you can't pull it off :P


How much do you want to bet? :mrgreen:

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Sun Jan 11, 2015 9:09 pm
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Another thought on the bubble realms. I doubt it this may come true, because "Fantasy" isn't Fantasy without a map. It might destroy a lot of the atmosphere and setting of the game which is what gives WHFB its appeal. Mostly what was stuck in my mind was the reason given: "so that everyone can attack everyone".
This had me thinking. If this is the goal, then a complete warp-world isn't necessary. All they need is to bring the races closer together. Which is exactly what ET is doing.

  • Warhammer's American continent is abandoned. The Dark Elves have been pushed out. The Lizzies have started an Exodus.
  • Ulthuan is gone though there was no technical need for this, as an Ocean can function as a Fantasy equivalent of the Warp. However, High Elves weren't likely to go invade Bretts or Empire. Nor would those factions and Dwarves come invade Ulthuan. By moving the Elves to Athel Loren, however... They are brought in the middle of it. Additionally the Elves are no longer 'high elves' but a mixture of wood elves, high elves and dark elves, it may prove trivially easy in fluff to give them an uneasy or even hostile standing with Empire and Dwarfs. There's the Shadow Magic as one of its rulers now. A new "faction" is rumored to be some sort of Human priestly order, that may be very 'pure and good' but perhaps also judgemental towards the Elves. (Space Marines vs Eldar?)
    Looking at the Elven royalty, they may even get a bipolar nature in their dealings with other factions.
  • Tomb Kings and Sylvannas might join together and become a single faction under Nagash. They could be a single army, with a very bad relationship with its neighbours (Dwarfs, Elves, Humans, Chaos).
  • Chaos expands. Dare I say that they are everywhere? I can imagine they'll be crawling on the mortal realms from every side now.
  • Skaven are everywhere anyway.

The realms and factions are being compressed, not just in number but also in location on the map. The Old World, which is richest in history and used the most throughout existing games, seems to be the staging area for all factions except lizards (thus far).

It seems to me, that the goal to bring everyone together has already been achieved. Only the lizzies are a weird one in this.
One of artworks seems to hint at a flying temple. This will land on Archaon, ending the chaos invasion (Remember this! I called it first!).
Well maybe not that, but I doubt they will become lizards in space. However, Slanns moved continents before. Perhaps they are moving the Lizards, somehow, closer to where the action is for the final stand where chaos is finally halted.

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Mon Jan 12, 2015 3:04 pm
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I think you are pretty close to the mark there Daeron.

Also a fairly nice summary of this End time book, highlight for details;

Quote:
The novel is very easy to summarize: Thorgrim asks Belegar at the king's summit to abandon Karak Eight Peaks and help Karak Azul, because he sees that the dwarven holds will be in trouble in the future. Belegar refuses and returns to Eight Peaks. At the same time, Clan Mors plans to take it once and for all, now that a huge skaven competition for power is out, given the facts that the greey seers are expelled from the Council (ET: Nagash). So they send huge numbers. Belegar's host slowly dies; Skarsnik makes one huge trap battle against Queek, but does not manage to win by a mix of bad luck and lack of numbers compared to Queek (and also because he gets depressed at the dead of Gobbla, leaving Eight Peaks), so Queek is left alone to finish Belegar and take Karak Eight Peaks. This is like 80% of the novel. Not much more takes place. The novel is not very informative and rather weak on a macro level. But the way it is written (regarding Skarsnik and Queek, that is) is hilarious and very well achieved. Much better than the other ET novels.

Then you are left with like 20 pages which take place many years afterwards (2527), in which you see Karaz a Karak under constant siege. The gates are breached by a host led by a Verminlord, but Thorgrim rushes to destroy the penetrating army, gets wounded by the verminlord, but gets infused with metal power (which seemingly binds to the Throne of Power, not Thorgrim) and kills it. Then he gets angry with his advisors telling him to stay on the keep and takes all of his army out against a legion which is now at its doors: Clan Skyre with Ikit Claw, Clan Mors with Queek and many lower clans, what is called the largest army ever to walk the world (or something like that). Thorgrim kills lots of skaven, settles many grudges, but gets isolated and is about to be circled when Bugman + rangers and Ungrim + slayers turn out, cause an avalanche which kills many skaven and send many panicking, what gives Thorgrim time to face Queek and kill him. Ungrim apparently does the same with Ikit (who, however, might have survived). The entire army is destroyed, marking the dwarven greatest victory in an age. Then Ungrim leaves to help the Emperor, Bugman leaves to an unknown destination. Thorgrim retires to a secret door to the mountain top, watches the stars but gets killed by the Deathmaster, leaving the secret door open what might allow the skavens to pour in.

This is all described as the end of the dwarven realm and near extinction of them all, although this description comes precisely from old style dwarves who link their race to the Karaz Ankor. Bugman (a world dwarf), on the other hand, believes they will always be there and play an important role in the world, just in another fashion.

Dwarf players (including myself) in many different forums feel very depressed and hated because of all of this and see themselves squatted in the near future, while the skaven seem all mighty out of nothing. But we are missing the big picture. The Karaz Ankor is gone, but we knew it would come to that, the same way Ulthuan, Naggaroth, all human realms, Lustria, are all gone. The dwarven race is constantly described as doom, but so are humans and (mostly) elves. There is no discrimination in this: the ET was always meant both gamewise and fluffwise to put every order race in danger of being utterly destroyed. And just like in the other two cases (no info on lizzies yet), the final blow could not be dealt; just like in Altdorf, Karaz a Karak might have fallen, but the war was won and not lost. So, yeah, it is sad to see the Empire, Ulthuan and the Karaz Ankor gone, but at the same time all races (obviously) survived, although very changed. Order got steamrolled? Well, if you compare it to the previous status quo in which order would always win without much losses, it is obviously so. But if you compare it to the fact that (fluffwise) they were supposed to die, all of them, pretty quick, order manages to put up quite a fight.

There is one thing regarding which dwarfs seems to be discriminated. The final battle has really only 4 major players: elves (with actually at least two major players: Malekith and Teclis); the Empire (Karl Franz and maybe Gilles are major players); Nagash and Archaon (maybe Thanquol as well). With Thorgrim death and metal leaving him, we are left with a support role (Ungrim). But still: it is better than nothing.

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Mon Jan 12, 2015 3:24 pm
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So for those who are not planning to buy the book or if anyone is interested then below is a fairly detailed report on what happens in the book. The bubbles have started....

Quote:
I did see the book and had some chance to give it a look, so I'll try to write as much as I remember at the moment more details tomorrow:

RULES:

- 3 (i think) different formations in the new book
1 - army of Kharaz-a-Karak with specific units one must take special rules and restrictions (as in 40k)
2 - Lizardmen army with the blessing +1 WS for all skinks (it's a lame one)
3 - Skaven Army

- Warlord trait as in 40k... or something similar (I can't rememebr if it's only campaign related or general rule)


LORE:

PLACES:

Empire:
Graf Boris Todbringer leaves Middenheim in the hands of Valten and Gregor Mertak and goes after Khazrak who he blames for all the bad things happening in his lands. He finds his nemesis but falls into a trap, although he challanges Khazrak, kills him, but at the end he is torn apart by Khazrak's herd
Middenheim is under siege by a combined force of Archaon and Thanquol. Basically the Verminlords decide that Skaven are not strong enought to resist the Lord of the End Times, so Verminking sends Thanquol to speak with Archaon and make a deal. Archaon accepts and uses the skaven as a distraction and to poison the city of Middenheim. Eventually it turns out that Teclis is alive, hinding underground while performing a spell to steal the flame of Ulrik that is protecting the city against the invaders (the reason is not mantioned but it's for a greater good). Because of that the flame of Ulrik dies and people panic all around, so without protection deamons and skaven storm the city and the big fight starts... Archaon fights Valten but he gets kille by Verminlord Deciever's shurken, Gregor Mertak banishes Kayros from the mortla world but cannot resist Archaon.

Lustria:
The skaven use Morrslieb to bombard the Lizardem but thanks to the effort of the Slann mages, some of them survive, although ALL of the SLann mages are slain in the process and are basically as Lord Kroak... This guy awakens and beats death, retuns to life just to save certain areas of Lustria by creating magical orbs that lift those lands and set them into the void" (YES WELCOME BUBBLEHAMMER, POKEHAMMER, WARHAMMERBALL ). After that Kroak dies again, and the prophet of SOtek dies too... Tet'o EKo is alive, as Krok Gar (i believe). Clan pestilens is seriously comprimised...

Kharaz-a-Karak:
the battle between skaven, dwarfs and gobbos start at the EIght Peaks, with Queek falling into Skarsnik's trap, althought the Skaven arre much stronger, and Gobbla gets killed so SKasnik loses all of his will to fight... Belegar gets killed by Queek and his head is taken away. At a certain point a Verminlord takes the head to Skarsnik as a token of peace, and he gives him also a warpstone bomb to take to Zhufbar, but Skarsnik think it's a much better idea to detonate the Eight Peaks so he'll be rememebered as the true last king of the mountain and he takes his waaagh and leaves forever those lands for a new unnamed destination.
After that Ikit Claw and QUeek lay siege to Kharaz-a-Kharak, the skaven have the biggest army in the history of the Old World, they even manage to brake the gate, but at that very the skaven army gets charged by the Bugman's rangers and Ungrim's slayers... Thay kill so many skaven that the army starts to panic, so Thorgrim has the chance to get close to Queek, and so he orders his bearers to put him on the ground and challanges the Skaven Warlord... Queek accepts makes some crazy ninja moves, yet Throgrim is much more stonger than him, so he manages to catch the skaven chief and after saying some epic words breakes his neck.... The clan Mors gets buchered Ikit Claw gets killed (but it's not true), and the dwarrfs win one of the biggest vistories in their history. Clan mors is destroyed... So at the end, Ungrim leaves to go help the EMpire with an army of ONLY slayers, Bugman speaks to Throgrim, and then goes away, and Throgrim gets back to the fortress of Kharaz-a-Karak, goes to think in a secret chamber, but he gets surprised by Snitch who kills him, draws some runes in order to summon the Deceiver, in order to open the gates and let the smaller clans (underground) strorm the fortress (at least that's the plan but the story stops before the invasion)



GENERAL:
Chaos moves south, yet from the west dragon roars are herd in the empire while from the East the Ogre Kingdoms are about to arrive... Nagash moves north although he is slowed down by greenskins and dwarfs (in separate moments)



CHARACTERS:

Empire:
- Graf Boris Todbringr killed by beastmen
- Gregor Mertak killed after banishing Kaiyros
- Valten killed by a shuriken from the Deceiver

Skaven:
- Queek killed by Throgrim
- Ikit Claw killed/wounded
- Thanquol allied with Archaon

Chaos:
- Khazrak killed ina duel
- Kaiyros bannished by Gregor

Dwarfs:
- Thorgrim killed by SNitch
- Belegar killed
- Ungrim Avatar of fire

Elves:
- Teclis is alave and he stole the flame of Ulrik

Lizardmen:
- Mazdamundi dead
- Lord Kroak dead
- Prpehet of Sotek dead.


I think that's it for the moment... Some things might be slightly wrong since I read it really quickly in order to get as many infos as I could... I tried to be as precise as possible yet, I cannot guarantee that evrything is 100% true, but almost!


- MOST of the Slann are dead (Mazdamundi is one of those although his spirit endures). Very few slann manage to get themselves into some of the temple pyramids that turn to be also capable of flying thanks to a "gemantical grid" or something similar. FIanlly when all is "done", Kroak casts his spell the one with magical orbs that sends pieces of Lustria into the Void...

As for the passage from the ibook: the SKaven try to bring the moon closer to the earth by magic and that's when the first meteor shower starts (and when the slann fall unconcious), but eventually they build a sort of deathbeam that explodes Morraslieb and big chunks of it fall over Lustria and "Eastern lands" and that' s when most of the Lizard are killed /run away whit their spaceships. (pyramids fly becaus they actually are spaceships )

The spaceships (pyramids) and the magical orbs sent into the void are two diferent things yet both happen in Lustria, the first are sort of emergency modules for the lizardmen, the second ones are a spell cast by Kroak.

SO at the end the Slann are NOT ALL dead but there is like a half a dozen alive.... Mazdamundi and Kroak are 100% dead...

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My Kings of War Plog - Twilight Kin / Nightstalkers


Fri Jan 16, 2015 9:49 am
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Executioner

Joined: Tue Jul 30, 2013 4:12 pm
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Fri Jan 16, 2015 11:19 am
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