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Cold One Knights 
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Dark Rider
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Joined: Wed Jan 29, 2014 7:18 pm
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I'm a little unsure of exactly how to make the most out of cold one knights and wanted to know how people use them.

Because they're cav and because of lances, they really need to make the charge and ideally not be grinding it out for too long.

So getting flank charges would be ideal, but what kind of units do they excel against with S6 and a somewhat limited number of attacks? Do you keep them back with your main block and wait until you're able to get everything you need into combat, or do you ride them up a flank and try to get charges off turn 2 alone?

Thanks


Mon Jan 05, 2015 1:18 am
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Malekith's Personal Guard
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I hold them back and use infantry to engage in the front, and then try to set up a flank on one far side or the other, so that when they break that unit they can charge into the next, all the way down the line. Same thing I do with Pegasus Masters and Chariots really.

And yes, any time they are in a combat for more than one round, that's a lose for you.

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Mon Jan 05, 2015 2:32 am
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Malekith's Best Friend
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I disagree. A single casting of Power of Darkness or Wyssan's Wildform and you have a model throwing out 3 ST5 attacks each and there's NOTHING wrong with that! Heck, even 3 ST4 attacks isn't too bad with a 2+ save to back it up. Sure they're not my first choice to grind out a unit but they aren't half bad either!

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Mon Jan 05, 2015 2:45 am
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Yes, they CAN do it, but it's a bad use of the strengths of the unit.

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Mon Jan 05, 2015 11:16 am
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Slave on the Altar

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3 Str 4 attacks each with a 2+ armor save is nice. Furthermore, THEY LOOK SO GOOD, and good looks justify everything - everyone knows that bringing a nice looking army ensures the moral victory of the battlefield!


I put them up for flank charges - or even front charges on smaller units that they can beat in combat.

So far I have only used them in low-point games so I dont know how well they are doing in large-scale combats.


Mon Jan 05, 2015 11:44 am
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lverasmussen wrote:
Furthermore, THEY LOOK SO GOOD, and good looks justify everything - everyone knows that bringing a nice looking army ensures the moral victory of the battlefield!


Wisdom :mrgreen:

If running an infantry based list, my Knights generally hang back on the flanks and wait till the opportune moment to strike, using Dark Riders and Harpies in front to make sure they get the charge.

If running a cavalry based list, my Knight Bus wants to hit a weak point (or a strong point it can break) in the enemies line. Dark Riders double flee and harpies redirect to jam up enemy lanes so that the Knights can hit where they need to :)

Of course, strategy never survives contact with the enemy, but with multiple S4 attacks, Fear and 2+As -- as others have said -- they are amongst the best grinding cavalry out there.

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Mon Jan 05, 2015 4:09 pm
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Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't Cold One Knights T3?? It's the reason I didn't use them, as you use the riders toughness value and didn't really want slightly slower moving knights at T3 when the rest of my army is fast cav


Tue Jan 06, 2015 10:12 am
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Miscast into the Warp
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TheSupremePatriarch wrote:
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't Cold One Knights T3?? It's the reason I didn't use them, as you use the riders toughness value and didn't really want slightly slower moving knights at T3 when the rest of my army is fast cav


You are correct, T3. Only Monstrous Cavalry uses the highest 'T' from the two profiles, hence why are Peggy's are so helpful.

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Tue Jan 06, 2015 11:01 am
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Yeah :/ I mean the CoK hit hard but at slightly higher movement than infantry, I think it's better to take infantry blocks or chariots. Just my preference though :)


Tue Jan 06, 2015 12:28 pm
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I have 12 of them and can't figure out how to put them in one unit.
They physically just don't rank up due to the tails.

Are they better with 2 units rather than one big unit.
I could do either one big unit of 12 with a full command or two small units of 6 with full command.
Which is better?

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Tue Jan 06, 2015 6:00 pm
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Malekith's Personal Guard
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Their advantages are armor and speed (some), as well as the mount attacks. Their disadvantages are cost and stupidity. There are times, and lists, where the advantages outweigh the disadvantages, and there are times when it will not.

In my opinion, if you're going to do a cold one unit, you want it to have at least one, preferably two characters in it. A Lord and BSB will mitigate the stupidity issues almost entirely, and give the unit some SERIOUS impact. It's also a LOT of points, so it won't be a great idea against all opponents.

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Tue Jan 06, 2015 6:26 pm
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Killed by Khorne
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Nellamik wrote:
I have 12 of them and can't figure out how to put them in one unit.
They physically just don't rank up due to the tails.

Are they better with 2 units rather than one big unit.
I could do either one big unit of 12 with a full command or two small units of 6 with full command.
Which is better?


Many options:

1 of 5

2 of 5

1 of 6

2 of 6

1 of 9 (Cube formation using Hotek rules)

1 of 10 (Bus)

1 of 12 (Bus)

Better/Best depends on the rest of your list and who you are facing.

I'd start playing with one small unit, then two small units, then compare to a proper bus with 8-12 plus BSB and Dreadlord.

With the small units, they back up the rest of your list.

With the big unit, your whole list has to be geared to supporting them.

If you look in my sig you'll see a battle report that uses a unit of 9 plus BSB, with a list to support.

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Tue Jan 06, 2015 6:33 pm
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Shade

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I find that people underestimate the Cold One's 2 attacks. Most people assume 1 attack from men and a S3 attack from a crappy mount which is NOT a cold one. This is the same issue with the Cold One Chariot, while yes it's not awesome to have your chariot stuck in combat, the T5 and 4 S4 attacks from the cold ones is better than most chariot mounts.


Tue Jan 06, 2015 9:21 pm
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Warrior
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Nellamik wrote:
I have 12 of them and can't figure out how to put them in one unit.
They physically just don't rank up due to the tails


Yeah, it is possible to do it but you need to take it into account when putting them on their bases - either angle them or put them off to the side alternating for front and back. So take them off and re-do them, or just always run 1-deep units :)

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Wed Jan 07, 2015 10:47 am
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Dark Rider
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Thanks for the feedback, much appreciated.


Sat Jan 10, 2015 12:29 am
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So here is my 2 cents
No plan survives contact, so I like to build adaptability, resiliency, endurance into my lists. I find that COK are great as a second, more maneuverable can opener. Allow me to explain, I run a horde of WE with cauldron, and a horde of (sometimes frenzied) executioners. Now there is no horde out there that can handle the WEs as they kill so much weak stuff, and there is no armor out there that can deal with frenzied executioners, too many height st hits. The weakness is that they are relatively slow and difficult to maneuver with being hoarded infantry. So the rest of my army is built around forcing my opponents army onto my killing hordes. In this role, of course dark riders and harpies, and rxbs and reapers are invaluable, but I find that they just mitigate his light troops or clear them.

I also use a unit of 9 COK with dread lord. They are always on the flank, and with the swiftness banner, a cheap upgrade, threaten a charge over quite a large area of the board. This literally herds lots of stuff towards the center of the board, right into the path of my death machine hordes of WEs and exes. But the COKs are survivable enough that they can hold a round of combat after the charge should they need to to pin something nasty down for it to be hit in my turn again by the rolling death that is my infantry hordes.

I also use a karibdyss and a COC usually on the other flank to do the same thing. The kbeast is scary and lots of stuff will shy away from it, right into the path of the steamroller of pain that is my hoarded center. And with the COC supporting the beast, most stuff knows better than to play. Blood crushers might not care about the kbeast chariot combo but most stuff will, and even crushers won't deal well with a flank charge from COKs.

This gives me 4 major and redundant threats, the WE horde, the executioner horde, the kbeast/chariot combo, and the COKs, where usually, at worst, I have two of these supporting each other, and at best I have my opponent hit by my hordes and flanked by COKs and the kbeast/chariot combo, which is disgusting in its carnage. Basically I have given my opponent 4 major threats to contend with and most people design lists to handle one or two main threats, while delaying/ distracting one more. I overwhelm his battle plan and with 4 major threatening maneuver units I can flex when my opponents pulls out a trick or something. I will admit that I would struggle with an avoidance army probably.

Anyway that's why I think COKs are awesome, they drive stuff onto my blender, and they provide a second can opener that has the movement to flex in position if needed.


Sun Jan 18, 2015 3:13 am
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Malekith's Best Friend
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that sounds very interesting but how do you fit all those units in a single list? I think I have the models for it... So I might want to try that. Can you give an example list?

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Sun Jan 18, 2015 8:13 am
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For what it's worth, I have had a lot of problems with a unit of 6-7 and I always look to get them in the flank. They are led by a Master BSB with either the Cloak or Armour of Destiny.

I've flanked Treemen, Knight Errant lances, a Cold One Bus escorting Morathi and Empire Inner Circle Knights. They bounced off every single time. It doesn't seem to matter if I've buffed/hexed or facing buffs/hexes - each time they go in, they seem to suffer from rubber lance syndrome. It's not even that I'm rolling poorly: it's that the limited number of attacks that they deliver doesn't carry through to wounds. In fact, about the only thing that they have successfully beaten in combat is some Skeleton archers. After charging them in the rear. Not exactly something the bards will be singing about. Once they start taking just a couple of casualties, either from pre-combat shooting or in the second round, their effectiveness further drops off rapidly.

As a result, I wouldn't ever bring less than 10. If you are, then I'd bring multiple units (eg 2x 6) simply for redundancy. Anything less and I fear that you will just be setting yourself up to be disappointed.

All that being said, conversely & surprisingly they have done a wonderful job at being an anvil. They've tanked & beaten in combat after being charged: Stonehorns, Durthu, Dragon Princes in the flank and Warsphinxes. T3 2+ might not seem too great, but it's some of the best armour in the book, and with the volume of S4 attacks coming back they can very often grind out their opponents. Weird how that works.


Sun Jan 18, 2015 11:07 am
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Trainee Warrior

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@ clockwork, I agree, I only field them in units of 10. So about 14 ( because of the dread lord) attacks usually rerolling to hit, and at s6 usually only failing to wnd on 1s so rerolling to wnd nets about 8 wnds depending on opponents save, then 10 s4 attacks from the cold ones is good for another 2 ish. Not devastating but scary.

@ dearon. My list looks something like this ( we play 3000 pts, points cost is a little off cause I don't have my book handy)

DL. Full mundane on cold one and a 4++. About 180 maybe (ballpark)
Lv 4 with dark, metal (or shadow if it's end times magic cause the end times signature spell is outstanding). With scroll

Hag on cauldron about 240 pts, usually with cry war, usually the bsb ( I know it's dangerous for her to be the bsb, but she is surprisingly survivable, and there is lots other stuff to shoot at. Also +2 st only if I have spare points which I never do)
Maybe tullaris for frenzy on executioners ( again this is where I'll shave points sometimes)

Core
5 dark riders, musician and bows
24ish WEs, full command and razor banner
About 24 rxbs one unit of 14 with flame banner, one unit of 10 just to drop.
( play with the points here so that no matter what you only have 750 in core.)

Special,
34 executioners full command about 440
9 cold ones full command and swift banner about 315
COC 115

Karybdiss. 160
5 locks. 125
5 shades gw depending opponent

By my quick math that's 2800 pts. I'd consider adding 2 bolt throwers with extra points or a peg master. Depending on what you like.


Sun Jan 18, 2015 12:52 pm
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my man, i have taken Jal's advice after meeting him at a local gaming club and him posting on this very forum - his recipe is as follows:

10 COKs w/ full command
lord: ogre blade, OTS and dawnstone
BSB: ring of hotek

either give the standard bearer the flaming banner or movement maybe. it's resilient against magic due to ring of hotek at least, but will die to shooting fairly easily.

light magic is excellent as it can boost their speed and charge range. also their attacks - incredibly useful given that you really have to break the target unit in the first turn. debatable whether the cold ones also get the +1 attack from briona's timewarp though.

if you're able to reduce the target unit to <10 models at the end of the combat turn then you're golden! (provided you have more than 5, if i'm correct). maybe soften target unit up with shooting first.

you have to put a lot of effort into building the models correctly so that when you put 12 unto a unit, they all fit (v. time-consuming). number the bases so you can get them together. i've attached a terrible photo where you can kinda see what i've done in middle of the board!


Attachments:
File comment: observe 'bastard squad' comprising of level 4 demon prince, dragon special character (using a dragon ogre model!), chimera and 3++ BSB hiding behind a rock. do i not like 50% lords allowance
IMG_0787 (1).JPG
IMG_0787 (1).JPG [ 126.96 KiB | Viewed 2215 times ]
Sun Jan 18, 2015 5:11 pm
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Trainee Warrior

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That is an absolutely viable build, I just don't use it because the cold ones are not my main punch, but it a powerful build if you are wanting to go that way.


Sun Jan 18, 2015 11:25 pm
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I really like the way the CoK play in the game. I just can't rely on the witch horde or executioners to get at the right targets. Having longer movement and switstride really helps get those high strength attacks in. I target my opponents heavy cav units and infantry shock troops. I give them the swiftstride banner and hit as hard as I can. The Cold ones are also good in the subsequent grind rounds so they can hold up a block. For around 285 pts for 8, I get very decent value.


Mon Jan 19, 2015 4:30 pm
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I played some games with 9 CoK and a 4++ dreadlord and they were pretty effective. They do a decent job at grinding when tarpitted because all of those S4 attacks generate some wounds and 2+ makes them relatively hard to kill.

I've found that getting them into combat can be the most important aspect of playing them when pitted against some ugly magic spells. Toughness tests and searing doom will cost you 150+ points of CoKs pretty consistently.


Wed Jan 28, 2015 10:20 pm
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Malekith's Best Friend
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The cold ones do benefit from asf and the extra attack from birona, just as they benefit from increased movement. The entire model gets the bonus, and in case of cav, rider and mount are treated as model. The story is a little different with MC, and totally different in case of ridden monsters.

I have found that the most point effective use of CoK are 5 with music, and light magic. the unit is small enough that very few people recognize it as an immediate threat, and with birona he unit dishes out 25 attacks.

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Fri Jan 30, 2015 8:42 am
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I've stopped using the bus now - just so many better builds out there.

That being said, the bus grabbed me 6 top 10s last year, so it's viable

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Tue Feb 10, 2015 2:58 pm
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