Logo
View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:43 am



Reply to topic  [ 14 posts ] 
how to increase DE internal balance under ETC Draft 2? 
Author Message
Black Guard
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2003 8:35 pm
Posts: 292
Location: Praggaroth
Hello

I would like to discuss how to increase internal balance of our armylist under ETC comp - Draft 2

increasing internal ballance seems to me as a possible direction to avoid all lists being the same (like ETC 2014 lists)

maybee, If we design some simple changes, that increase the inner balance, we could influence the global warhammer scene a little, like in the old ages... and we could then enjoy higher variety of usable units available...

well, the restrictions at this moment are:





May select up to 5 choices from the pool below:

● Each character using the Lore of Death – 2 choices

i see no way, how to incerease internal balance in this point... OK


● Each 5(or part of 5) Doomfire Warlock models – 1 choice

i see no way, how to incerease internal balance in this point... OK


● Each mounted dreadlord or master – 1 choice

aims at fixing external balance... maybee its little hard on coldone mounted masters... maybee 0,5 point each? to allow some form of coldone deathstar?


● One or more repeater bolt throwers– 1 choice

this one was discussed a lot on warhammer.org and everyone suggest to change this since draft 0... nothing happened yet... 3+ RbT - 1 choice?


● Each unit of dark riders after the second ­ 1 choice

this restriction actually increases internal ballance a lot....


● Crown of Command – 1 choice

i see no way, how to incerease internal balance in this point... Iam not sure, if its needed to be comped, seems weird, bc its not played a lot... but maybee, there is some abusive build I dont know...


● More than 80 shots from repeater crossbows per turn (Repeater bolt throwers count as
6 shots) ­ 2 choices


this is where I can see the most colateral damage happened and nerfed already weak units...

I would suggest not to count units, that shoot, but are considered weak compared to other options... In this way, they could play a role of increasing shooting capacity of the list at the cost of using inferior units

Bloodwrackshrine, Medusa, Hydras, Coldone chariot, RhB corsairs, Scourgerunner chariot... they all suffer from this restriction, while not being strong



● Morathi ­ 4 choices (Lore of Death choice is included)

i read this more like "banned"... droping her to 3 choices would make her possible to consider in a list with RbTs and mounted dreadlord/BSB or 2 mounted characters...


● Malekith ­ 2 Choices (3 choices if mounted)

increase to 3 points and together with the point below, he seems "banned"


● If the total points spent on all lords and heroes is greater than 50% of the armies
points ­ 1 pool choice


this point hit cauldron of blood the most (intended nerf, or unwanted colateral damage?)... otherwise reaching over 50% was not that common with restrictions to mounted characters... but, yes, it definitely hits some builds using dragons...


● If the total points spent on all lords and heroes is greater than 60% of the armies
points ­ 1 further pool choice


same as above



well, this is my point of view influenced by building a lot of lists since drat 0... but everyone has his own experiences, I would like to know, where you found the limits in this ETC comp...

_________________
Give me more Druchii and I'll give you more blood


Tue Jan 06, 2015 11:10 am
Profile
Malekith's Best Friend
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:46 pm
Posts: 1177
Location: The Depths of Despair
Interesting topic for sure. I for one think the ETC draft balances dark elves out fairly well with respect to last years dark elves which where just horribly overpowered compared to the other armies. However, I do not yet know how strong the inter-army balance between dark elves and "all the other races" are as of yet, as I simply havent looked that carefully at the drafts.

Some points, however.

Cold One masters are super strong. Alot stronger than one might think. Imagine a list with 5 cold one masters in a big CO unit, a pegasus dreadlord with the wombo combo and a lvl 4 on steed! This is why, I think, they select to just restrict mounted chars across the board.

I also think the RBT choice is reasonable. The way RBTs play out for me is I usually take 4 or 0. 2 RBT's almost always end up disappointing me; they cant shoot down the typical flak units and so end up just dying. 4 RBTs can, however, clear out those 2 ellyrian reaver units before they get a charge off on me.

More than 80 shots from repeater crossbows per turn (Repeater bolt throwers count as
6 shots) ­ 2 choices


Note: it says from repeater crossbows. Shrines, medusa, hydra, scourgerunners and handbow corsairs are not touched by this restriction at all. In addition, how many units would you need to include before you reach this cap, assuming one repeater crossbow counts as one shot (and not two shots due to multishot)? Well 4 RBTs = 24 shots. Leaving 56. This is 2 units of 20 darkshards and three shade units of 5, 5 and 6. I can simply not imagine a list where I would want more shooting than this...


Morathi "soft banned" <-- she can potentially have two mobile vortexes, adds d3 to all casting and flies. I agree this is overpriced. I wouldnt even take her at 3 choices, a standard lvl 4 death for 2 choices would be much better...

Malekith at 3 choices is also a soft ban for me. But the reason for his price is his extreme point denial potential. Craft a huge huge unit, stick him and a bunch of characters in it, and he can charge and break a LOT of stuff, and at the same time he makes his unit "soft immune" to magic due to his feedback on dispels.


The 50% of armypoint hero+lord pool was, I believe, not intended to nerf the cauldron of blood. There has been build suggestions with 3 pegasus mounted dreadlords, a lvl 4 dark on steed AND a master BSB on pegasus. This was legal in draft 1, and was just pretty damned brutal. In draft 2, this is toned down some. Warriors of chaos could likewise make some retarded builds, whereas some other races (ogre kingdoms, wood and high elves, skaven etc.) would not really increase in power level. Due to this, some armies would be way stronger than others - this is why the change, I think.


Overall - pool choice is still a weird construction, and it WILL streamline armies towards "THE power build", since stuff such as shadestar, cold one bus and others are made alot weaker with this draft. Dark Elves will still be alot about pegasus, I think.

_________________
Name: Ladry (female)
Class: Mage (Pyromancer)
Equipment: Staff, longsword, dagger, 20 gold, insignia ring.
Skills: Power of Aqshy (2), defensive figthing
WS4, S2, T3, D4, I6.


Tue Jan 06, 2015 11:47 am
Profile
Black Guard
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2003 8:35 pm
Posts: 292
Location: Praggaroth
Thraundil wrote:
More than 80 shots from repeater crossbows per turn (Repeater bolt throwers count as
6 shots) ­ 2 choices


Note: it says from repeater crossbows. Shrines, medusa, hydra, scourgerunners and handbow corsairs are not touched by this restriction at all. In addition, how many units would you need to include before you reach this cap, assuming one repeater crossbow counts as one shot (and not two shots due to multishot)? Well 4 RBTs = 24 shots. Leaving 56. This is 2 units of 20 darkshards and three shade units of 5, 5 and 6. I can simply not imagine a list where I would want more shooting than this...



wow, i completely missed this change... it seems, that AR got my point :) ...RxB still count as 2 shots, but they fixed all the other units....

_________________
Give me more Druchii and I'll give you more blood


Tue Jan 06, 2015 12:26 pm
Profile
Malekith's Best Friend
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:46 pm
Posts: 1177
Location: The Depths of Despair
Malda wrote:
wow, i completely missed this change... it seems, that AR got my point :) ...RxB still count as 2 shots, but they fixed all the other units....


Are you certain about this? That makes crossbows like super nerfed. My list with 20 dark riders and 11 shades is bloody illegal now :killed: 31 shooting models is clearly over the top. Can you confirm that this is the actual intention?

_________________
Name: Ladry (female)
Class: Mage (Pyromancer)
Equipment: Staff, longsword, dagger, 20 gold, insignia ring.
Skills: Power of Aqshy (2), defensive figthing
WS4, S2, T3, D4, I6.


Tue Jan 06, 2015 12:38 pm
Profile
Miscast into the Warp
Miscast into the Warp
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 11:07 am
Posts: 3510
Location: Investigating Mantica
I would suggest RXB = 2 shots is the intention from the wording; unless you can go in arguing that you will never use the Multishot rule. A little harsh on the comp side though.

_________________
My Kings of War Plog - Forces of Nature

My Kings of War Plog - Twilight Kin / Nightstalkers


Tue Jan 06, 2015 12:48 pm
Profile
Black Guard
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2003 8:35 pm
Posts: 292
Location: Praggaroth
Thraundil wrote:
Malda wrote:
wow, i completely missed this change... it seems, that AR got my point :) ...RxB still count as 2 shots, but they fixed all the other units....


Are you certain about this? That makes crossbows like super nerfed. My list with 20 dark riders and 11 shades is bloody illegal now :killed: 31 shooting models is clearly over the top. Can you confirm that this is the actual intention?



http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=127329

ubertechie:

pk-ng wrote:
For the shooting caps for DE
a) Repeater Crossbow count as 1 or 2? (I'm assuming 2 from draft 1)
b) If a character carries a RXB does this count towards the cap?

A - 2 shots
B - yes they do


yes, shooting is pretty nerfed :) ...but its since draft 0, they made it softer now :)

you can still have 20DR + 11 shades + 3 RbT... my usual setup is 20DR + 4 RbT + 8 shades... but now we can think about fielding RhB corsairs instad of withes :) ...and dont need to cut 1 shade, while using dragon...

_________________
Give me more Druchii and I'll give you more blood


Tue Jan 06, 2015 12:51 pm
Profile
Malekith's Best Friend
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:46 pm
Posts: 1177
Location: The Depths of Despair
Amboadine wrote:
I would suggest RXB = 2 shots is the intention from the wording; unless you can go in arguing that you will never use the Multishot rule. A little harsh on the comp side though.


Yeah you're right now I read it over gain. It just seems super harsh and not really needed. Wood elves (the real elven shooting circus) have no such limit. When do you ever see DE shooting actually be strong? :P
Oh well guess im stripping crossbows off one DR unit, and upping the number of shades instead.

_________________
Name: Ladry (female)
Class: Mage (Pyromancer)
Equipment: Staff, longsword, dagger, 20 gold, insignia ring.
Skills: Power of Aqshy (2), defensive figthing
WS4, S2, T3, D4, I6.


Tue Jan 06, 2015 12:54 pm
Profile
Slave (off the Altar)
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 18, 2013 12:40 am
Posts: 17
Sorry, kinda newb question. What is the "wombo" combo? Thanks


Tue Jan 06, 2015 3:16 pm
Profile
Malekith's Best Friend
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:46 pm
Posts: 1177
Location: The Depths of Despair
Sevekai wrote:
Sorry, kinda newb question. What is the "wombo" combo? Thanks


Ah, slang I guess :) the wombo combo pegasus lord is the guy with the cloak of twilight + dawnstone combination. That guy is so durable that many opponents I play against simply ignore him for the purpose of firing on my other stuff... 1+ armor save which he rerolls, and failing that, back it up with 3+ ward against shots and magic. And then he hits like a truck to boot =)

_________________
Name: Ladry (female)
Class: Mage (Pyromancer)
Equipment: Staff, longsword, dagger, 20 gold, insignia ring.
Skills: Power of Aqshy (2), defensive figthing
WS4, S2, T3, D4, I6.


Tue Jan 06, 2015 3:46 pm
Profile
Malekith's Best Friend
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2003 3:07 pm
Posts: 1253
Location: Somerset, UK.
Making Bolt Throwers 1 Choice for 3+ and dropping the 80 shots double punishment would help sort it out. Can always provide a reward for selection of lesser-seen units (e.g. -1 Choice if the army contains a unit of 30+ Dreadspears or a Fleetmaster).

_________________
Still Serving Slaanesh
Owner of one too many armies...


Sat Jan 17, 2015 6:25 pm
Profile
Executioner

Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2008 3:02 pm
Posts: 167
Location: Stalking the Frozen Lands of Finland
Amarel wrote:
Making Bolt Throwers 1 Choice for 3+ and dropping the 80 shots double punishment would help sort it out. Can always provide a reward for selection of lesser-seen units (e.g. -1 Choice if the army contains a unit of 30+ Dreadspears or a Fleetmaster).


These are pretty much what could change in DE comps... Running 2 RBT would be semi good choice thst some would consider, but now you should max them if you field RBT. I think that 80 shots limitation is quite alright, maybe it should not include chariots and handbows. Also 2 choices pretty much forbid going over it. 1 choice should be enough, since DE shooting is not so awesome in this setting of meta.

Morathi could be considered if she was 3 choices. Then you couöd get some sensible lists in which to field her competitively. I dont think she deserves semi ban, since she is really effective, but getting 2 vortexes is certainly not sure, and she is not much better than flying lvl4 death. She is better, yet more expensive and 4++ is not getting any better...

Otherwise DE comp is quite alright. We have to accept that DE are powerful.
pool of choices for everyone is way to go


Sat Jan 17, 2015 11:19 pm
Profile
Malekith's Best Friend
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2003 3:07 pm
Posts: 1253
Location: Somerset, UK.
Ajattaro wrote:
Otherwise DE comp is quite alright. We have to accept that DE are powerful. pool of choices for everyone is way to go


I don't disagree at all, but right now some of these comp choices encourage powerful choices, rather than forcing decisions. For example, with competitive lists you either go full RBT's, or you leave them out, no half measures, and the current comp encourages that by punishing you as much for 1 as it does for 4. Another example is RxB's on DR's; competitively you don't spend the points on them and the comp, again, encourages that. Let me take up to 2 RBT's for no choices and don't punish me for putting RxB's on my DR and I may just fill out some points like that - reducing my spend in other areas by 170 to 200pts.

_________________
Still Serving Slaanesh
Owner of one too many armies...


Mon Jan 19, 2015 10:31 am
Profile
Executioner

Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2008 3:02 pm
Posts: 167
Location: Stalking the Frozen Lands of Finland
Ah yes, I meant that 3+ RBT should be one choice, not 1-4


Mon Jan 19, 2015 12:05 pm
Profile
Executioner
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 26, 2013 3:23 am
Posts: 156
I could see COCs being considered an option now, to replace Peg Master choices for the flank chargers. Granted, our Special is fairly packed (RBT, Shades, Execs) but I wouldn't be surprised if we see less COK units, which should free up some points.

I'm more interested in how core will look with the "nerf" to CoB (intentional or not), and how/if it will affect Witches. Will people actually use the choice to go beyond two units of DR or will they go elsewhere for core? I could see Corsair RhB bunkers for LVL4s being a thing.

And as always, no love for the Sisters of Slaugther. :|

_________________
PLOG | FACEBOOK | BLOG


Mon Jan 19, 2015 6:34 pm
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic   [ 14 posts ] 

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot], Majestic-12 [Bot] and 6 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
Designed by ST Software