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Black Guard and Executioners best support? 
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Shade

Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 12:26 am
Posts: 115
Hey guys!! New to this forum but have been playing DE for 5 months! I am somewhat designing a 2400 point army to deal with anything in high S/T units which comes my way. I have 28 executioners and 27 black guard. They are my 2 main blocks. From core I have selected dark riders and darkshards.

What I am wondering is what supports my combat blocks most. Hydras? Kharibdyss?

Also, my Lores im looking at is metal, beasts, shadow and dark to buff my combat blocks and debuff my opponents. I want my army to be all about CC.

Any help would be amazing.

Cheers guys!


Mon Jan 26, 2015 12:37 am
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Generalissimo
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Yes, anything small but hard hitting.

Hydras are good for munching infantry as a support piece
K-Beasts are good for smashing enemy monsters on the same basis
Chariots are great for dolling out a lot of pain via impact hits for cheaper than the above two
5 model units of Cold One Knights can be great for dealing out pain too

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Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:38 am
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Assassin
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A bloodwrack shrine can be good for you support needs. With clever set-ups and decent movement, you can get good mileage from it. You get the bonus of extra rank filler and can easily protect a mage hiding in the back ranks. Reaper bolt throwers are never bad either. Those guys will take out big gribblies like demon princes etc.


Mon Jan 26, 2015 6:52 am
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Shade

Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 12:26 am
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Thanks for the reply!!! Well I have a tourney coming up soon and I want to deal with heavy cav and anything in high toughness and strength. Executioners and a kbyss can deal with that easy I oresume?

Also, black guard are perfect for infantry and I opted for a hydra with fiery breath in support of them. I obviously know that by the time I reach combat one of the beasts would have been blown off the board, I just want your opinion on what I should take?

My core is all darkshards and dark riders, I also have 1 unit of doomfire warlocks. I have a BSB set up which is with the BG. Typical BSB build guys.

With this list I'm thinking of either metal, beasts or shadow. Suggestions?


Mon Jan 26, 2015 9:12 am
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Executioner

Joined: Sun Jan 19, 2014 10:56 am
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Chariots and Warlocks I think would do brilliantly, Chariots for Impact hits and S5 attacks on the charge, plus cause fear and Warlocks with Doombolt for damage, Soulblight to debuff and a unit of 5 has 10 S4 poisoned attacks in combat.

In terms of lore, I'd go for Shadow. I run Shadow with all my sole DE lists and it works against every opponent in my opinion, bringing down enemy Toughness so you can do more damage or reducing Strength to take less damage.

Hope that helps mate :)


Mon Jan 26, 2015 11:10 am
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Shade

Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 12:26 am
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Thanks for the advice. Luckily I have 2 chariots already and I must say, I do really like the damage output on the charge. Especially on the flank of a unit already engaged. Perfect support for my BG as they stick around until the last man!

It definitely has helped mate so thank you. As to placing them, would u run th both on the same flank? One on each flank, between units etc?

I think left over points would find me another unit of locks I think so that's perfect!!


Mon Jan 26, 2015 11:33 am
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Shade

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Ok, so here's the actual list. I have taken out the monsters replaced them with chariots and dropped one black guard to afford the brolocks.

List is as follows:
LORDS

Supreme Sorceress (In with a darkshard unit)
+lvl 4
+ToP
+scroll
+Tome
315

HEROES

Master (In with Black Guard)
+Full mundane Armour
+Enchanted Shield
+BSB
+Dawnstone
+Sword of Might
155

CORE

5 Dark Riders
+Shields
+RxB's
+musician
110

5 Dark Riders
+Shields
+RxB's
+musician
110

15 Darkshards
+Musician
190

15 Darkshards
+Musician
190

SPECIAL

29 Executioners
+FC
+Banner of swiftness
393

26 Black Guard
+Musician
+Standard
+Razor Banner
455

Cold One Chariot
115

Cold One Chariot
115

RARE

5 Doomfire Warlocks
125

5 Doomfire Warlocks
125

TOTAL POINTS - 2,398

As i said i will be coming up against various armies, such as dwarves, VC, Lizards, HE, Chaos and WE at the tourney.

Lore taken as suggested will be Shadow. Took the tome on my SS so i can AUTO SELECT Mind razor :) :)

So, theres the list complete so you all can judge me, go easy people hahah. What do you think?

BG i want as my main combat Anvil where it just ties things down. CoC's to smash into flanks whilst my darksjhards whittle down any chaff or units apporaching. Dark Riders to redirect also along with Warlocks. Flank charge with warlocks also.


Mon Jan 26, 2015 12:45 pm
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Generalissimo
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It looks like a reasonable list.

Some C&C:
- Your level 4 is illegal - she can take either the scroll or the tome, not both. Pick one.
- Consider trying to squeeze in a unit of 5 cold one knights with the standard of eternal flame, so you can deal with regen threats.
- You talked the talk about taking hydras and k-beasts, then dropped them. Why? I guess for the chariots.

Regarding lores: I would go with beasts, metal or life. Both will give your units a resilience buff, which will make them harder to kill. You could go shadow, but your units are already quite killy and may not need the assistance there as much as they would benefit from increased endurance. Taking shadow is also about as original and interesting as putting butter on bread, by which I mean incredibly dulzzzz...

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Mon Jan 26, 2015 12:55 pm
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Shade

Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 12:26 am
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Ah ofc she is. Will drop the tome then./ Scroll is ways more important.

I did drop the Monsters as i could then afford 2 CoC's then another unit of locks. What would you recommend?

I have thought about CoK's, but just a unit of 5 as opposed to chariots or even monsters didnt do it for me.

As for the lore, beasts or metal was my roginial choice, i wanted shadow only for Mind razor for BG but now you put it that way, Beasts or metal may be more helpful.

What are your siggested changes?


Mon Jan 26, 2015 1:33 pm
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Shade

Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 12:26 am
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Guys, do u think I've made a better choice dropping the hydra and k-beast for 2 chariots and 5 more Brolocks?


Tue Jan 27, 2015 10:18 am
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Executioner

Joined: Sun Jan 19, 2014 10:56 am
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Venomblades wrote:
Guys, do u think I've made a better choice dropping the hydra and k-beast for 2 chariots and 5 more Brolocks?

definitely, I'd say keep the chariots in the bubble of the BSB to help with stupidity checks. you've got 4 units of fast cav running around, with ranged damage output, chariots for support. might be an idea to run life to beef your units up and regrowth. plus stop miscasts on your level 4 as you've only got 2 characters on the board


Tue Jan 27, 2015 10:30 am
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Shade

Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 12:26 am
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Good! My only concern was enough strength in support, but I suppose two chariots and extra locks can't be wrong at all!!

Life is something I have really been wanting to use, and as my main anvil is BG, they tend to die easily. I was thinking metal for the buffs in armour for them, but life could also b just as good in rgeneration?

Any other tips or advice for this army?

Thanks for all the advice anyway.


Tue Jan 27, 2015 1:26 pm
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Executioner

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you might want to try and find a way to squeeze in a couple of bolt throwers, good for dealing with lone characters and some chaff clearance, plus with the multishots, -2 to the armour save can put a dent in some larger armoured units


Tue Jan 27, 2015 4:16 pm
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Generalissimo
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Personally, I'd drop the second warlock unit (you have 2 units and a level 4 sorceress, that's overkill imo). Then use the funds released from dropping that and dropping the tome to get one of the following:

Hydra
K-Beast
5 Cold One Knights
2 Reaper Bolt throwers (as TheSupremePatriarch suggests)

You can drop a few RxBs or similar to cover any extra points needed.

As lores go, life is typically stronger, but metal is fluffier.

If you go with life, make sure to attune yourself to the way that the lore works: everything revolves around throne of vines. You want to aim for that as a spell and then try to cast it as regularly and successfully as you can. The other spells in the lore then go from being good to OMGAWESOMEYOUF**KINGBEARD! The first time someone makes contact with a T7 unit of blackguard, they are going to cry. Especially when you regrow D6+1 of any that do get killed during your next magic phase.

If you go with metal, be aware that the best spells you want are (in this order): glittering scales (for that glorious +2 armour save bubble, which makes execs and blackguard have a 3+ save, which is brilliant), enchanted blades of aiban (great for making those executioners hit more reliably now they lack eternal hatred), and final transmutation (a nifty spell for causing hurt to anyone - if you are up against a horde army, then this becomes the strongest spell in the lore, because it forces stupidity tests on all units within a bubble of the unit targetted, which can cripple low leadership forces), and searing doom (nice for savaging enemy heavy cavalry and heavy infantry). The other spells for metal are okay, but those are your top four.

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Tue Jan 27, 2015 4:31 pm
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Shade

Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 12:26 am
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Wow! Really good feedback and advice guys, liking it! Much appreciated.

Sounding on a more sensible side, dropping locks for 2 X Bolt throwers could definately add to my ranged output. Especially units in heavy armour and shield etc. Losing the tome and locks give me more than enough for 2 bolties! Winner! :D :D

I'm quite set on life actually. As you said, BG T7.......crying all day baby!

I think with the added bolties and my army as it stands could pretty much clear chaff before it even knew it was on the table. Enough Ballistic to shoot them off and lay pressure on other units.

Feeling very confident guys so thank you very much!


Tue Jan 27, 2015 5:31 pm
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Executioner

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no problem mate, good luck :)


Wed Jan 28, 2015 9:15 am
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Shade

Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 12:26 am
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Ok, so my first lineup is against orcs and gobos this Thursday. As for the lore I'm thinking metal as it works well against enemy hordes. Any suggestions?

And is there anything I really need to watch out for with this list against orcs and goblins?


Mon Feb 02, 2015 12:25 pm
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Black Guard

Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2010 8:34 pm
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Metal would be a good lore for your list, as both the BG´s and execs benefit greatly from the buffs. Then there is final trans, which obviously is great vs massed infantry.

One-on-one your troops are superior, but be sure to kill any mangler right away. Also, make the doom divers a prime target ASAP, along with any other warmachines he has. The rest of his units should be manageble.


Mon Feb 02, 2015 2:14 pm
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Generalissimo
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Final trans can make orc and goblins lists cry - not so much for the horde destructive power (1/3 dead of 180 points worth of goblins is still just 60 points) but because of the stupidity test bubble it creates. However, some of the spells in metal can lose relevance against O&G. Searing doom is useful if he brings boar riders, but less so if he doesn't. Armor save reductions will not really hurt a lot of his forces, because they have awful saves anyway and make up for it in sheer number of bodies and - in the case of orcs - high toughness. It could be a good choice - but be diligent in trying to get the best spells you can (go for final trans, glistening robe, and enchanted blades, in that order. Do not go for searing doom, golden hounds, transmutation of lead, or plague of rust, unless you can see that he is packing heavy cavalry, orcs with shed tons of armor (black orcs really), or monsters with nasty scaly skin saves).

Be wary of assuming your forces are superior one-on-one. Against goblins, yes. But a unit of black guard WILL bounce off a unit of Black Orcs or Savage Orcs. S4 vs T4 does not make for a lot of kills. Execs will do better against elite forces, but at only one attack a piece, they can get bogged down by big columns of goblins or even orcs. Choose your match ups well, and don't just assume that you can win whatever fight you choose to enter.

Some suggestions:

- Be careful with those chariots. d6+1 impact hits with S5 versus T3 or below is juicy. But d6+1 impact hits versus T4 is less so, as you are wounding on 3s not 2s. Similarly, S3 against T5 makes chariots very hard to crack for many armies, but Orcs are always at least S4 (and often S5 or above) in the first round of combat, which makes those 4 wound chariots die a lot quicker.
- Aim to remove his artillery quickly with light cavalry and flyers etc.
- But don't over fixate on it - they are cheap as chips for him and often unreliable - there will be other threats to worry about too.
- Choose your match ups well. A horde of execs will do very well against a similarly sized unit of elite orc fighters, but will get bogged down and take a lot of casualties from long columns of cheap troops. Blackguard are great for milling through long columns of cheap troops, but will falter against a horde of black orcs or savage orcs.
- Take out leaders when you can. Orcs and goblins depend upon their heroes and lords for leadership bonuses on steadfast units. If you can kill them by allocating attacks in combat or through challenges, they struggle a lot more. A night goblin column led by a leadership 7 or 8 goblin character is far less likely to run away than one without a character (or the general within 12" or 18" depending) which has to roll under a 5, even if they are steadfast.
- Reapers are good for aiming at enemy generals on big monsters, as killing the general really hurts O&G forces.
- Don't underestimate things. A unit of 30 goblin archers in two ranks will still kill roughly 3-4 light infantry on average for every round of shooting they do at 9-18" (30 shots, hitting on 5s, wounding on 4s, saving on 5s = 3-4 dead) and on average 5 at 1-9". That can be quite painful.

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Mon Feb 02, 2015 4:33 pm
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Black Guard

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Keep the BG close to the cauldron and you re-roll everything, that will rack up a lot of kills :)


Mon Feb 02, 2015 5:46 pm
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Generalissimo
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Mikael.k wrote:
Keep the BG close to the cauldron and you re-roll everything, that will rack up a lot of kills :)

A challenging feat, as his army list doesn't have a cauldron.

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Mon Feb 02, 2015 6:36 pm
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Shade

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Thanks for the feedback. Metal is my definate choices and those spells suggested are perfect to boost my units in and out of combat. No doubt im gonna take a few doom divers and fanatics along the way, but im wondering is there a tactic outside of the 8'' range where the fanatics are released? I suppose not. Fast cav cant flee when fanatics are released can they? Stupid question, just prepping as i dont want a loss lol.

Another concern is that a classic O&G army is quite heroe and Lord packed, i have a SS and a Master BSB, given the BSB is quite survivable but up against say a Blacvk orc arboss i fear he might get chopped down. I think for this reason its sensible to keep him in the black guard and face my Exe's off the Black orcs.

I will let you know how it goes for sure, but i have a strange feeling i would have faired better with a couple of Hydra's in this match up. Alas, i dont have the models, so hopefully my chariots will stand for a while against Goblins.....Hopefully haha.

Thanks.

P.S. I thought the black guard re-roll everything anyway as they have Eternal Hatred?


Mon Feb 02, 2015 8:27 pm
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Black Guard

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Red... wrote:
Mikael.k wrote:
Keep the BG close to the cauldron and you re-roll everything, that will rack up a lot of kills :)

A challenging feat, as his army list doesn't have a cauldron.


My bad for beeing in a hurry :D

Quote:
P.S. I thought the black guard re-roll everything anyway as they have Eternal Hatred?


Re-rolls hits, yes :)


Mon Feb 02, 2015 8:39 pm
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Generalissimo
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Quote:
but im wondering is there a tactic outside of the 8'' range where the fanatics are released? I suppose not.

Drop harpies behind or alongside the unit in question is the standard approach. He then has to release them (at least, they did in the old army book, I don't 100% know for sure if they do or not in the most recent book). You may lose your harpies, but he's stuck with fanatics released too early and too close to his own lines. And those harpies probably cost less than the fanatics anyway.

Hydra's don't do great against O&G either, for the same reason as chariots: S5 versus T4 does not compute very well.

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Mon Feb 02, 2015 11:46 pm
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well I have been reading this thread, and there are a few things that aren't quiet right (details really).

you want to be all about CC. and you have a lot of cav but your main CC units are infantry. This will mean your CC troops cant get in to combat at the same time as the rest of your army.

IMHO the best lore to buff infantry in CC is light on L4+ dagger with fuel, and a L2 on heavens. this gives you good spell redundancy and the ability to spam spell even on single dice (thanks to the dagger the possibility to fail to cant is minimal) also you get a nice range of MM. As support the choice of heavens is critical, the default spell is game braking in conjunction with phase protection or speed of light, and he access to high strength MM is essential at taking down big things like dragons and daemon princes that posses a grave threat to your infantry. This is all backed by warlocks just in case you need the extra punch.

the way I see it, you should consider dropping infantry for cav, such as a cold one bus and a warlock bus. Keeping your lores. Or go for a more infantry based list on light and heaven magic supported by heavy shooting, RBT shades and dark riders.

this should optimize the efficiency of the force you are using.

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Tue Feb 03, 2015 10:16 am
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